AIG!!!
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Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
AIG!!! on 03/16/2009 20:17:06 MDT Print View

A hundred-plus million in bonuses for employees that helped wreck the entire financial system of the United States of America and much of the rest of the world.

"Our hands our tied." they tell the government.

So they claim to be contractually obligated to pay these bonuses. Apparently only bankruptcy would allow them to void these contracts...but legally, they're not exactly bankrupt- they're merely the recipient of hundreds of billions of taxpayer dollars...

and yet without these hundreds of billions from taxpayers they'd have been bankrupt long ago...

They've gotta be laughing their A S S E S off at us.

You gotta love this country!

On second thought, if they do succeed in bringing down US/global capitalism, maybe they should be payed the bonuses...hmmm.

Edited by rcaffin on 03/17/2009 15:24:25 MDT.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: AIG!!! on 03/16/2009 20:22:39 MDT Print View

"On second thought, if they do succeed in bringing down US/global capitalism, maybe they should be payed the bonuses...hmmm."

Very philosophical! Might turn out to be the best thing that ever happened to the environment too.

Edited by rcaffin on 03/17/2009 15:24:43 MDT.

Devin Montgomery
(dsmontgomery) - MLife

Locale: one snowball away from big trouble
Re: Re: AIG!!! on 03/16/2009 20:28:02 MDT Print View

You beat me to it, Lynn, but...

>On second thought, if they do succeed in bringing down US/global capitalism, maybe they should be payed the bonuses...hmmm.

Would that really be a fitting award for the anti-capitalists? A more fitting reward would be fair measure according to their need.

Edited by rcaffin on 03/17/2009 15:24:55 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: AIG!!! on 03/16/2009 20:32:32 MDT Print View

Captialism would have let AIG die last year.

Edited by rcaffin on 03/17/2009 15:25:08 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: AIG!!! on 03/16/2009 20:33:48 MDT Print View

"On second thought, if they do succeed in bringing down US/global capitalism, maybe they should be payed the bonuses...hmmm."

Which poses the question: What then???? Not a pretty sight, methinks. It sure as H E L L would mean the end of UL backpacking as WE know it.

Edited by rcaffin on 03/17/2009 15:25:21 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
re AIG!!! on 03/16/2009 20:36:18 MDT Print View

From my point of view, without the bailout money, AIG would be unable to continue as a business. They failed. Their executives failed. They should not have a job. Lots of people don't have jobs right now, and these failed executives should be amongst the unemployed. A condition of the bailout money should have been a complete replacement of the companies executives. These people should not receive a paycheck, let alone receive bonuses for their failure.

Wether a contract matters or not seems to depend largely on who the contract protects. The UAW had a contract too, but theirs changed when the autos toook bailout money.

Edited by rcaffin on 03/17/2009 15:25:36 MDT.

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: AIG!!! on 03/16/2009 20:40:55 MDT Print View

YA! down with free markets!
Please let the politicians control my life
I need a leader I can worship and wear on a T-shirt because freedom is scary and Im afraid and desire stability.
Politicians can finally have the power to fix the environment
without the public getting in the way.
I just wrote a check to AIG as I dont think my needs should come before the "peoples" need for stable banks.
Can anyone tell me what the lightest pack would be for the "Citizen Security Force"?
It will need to be durable as I will need to scale the walls of white rich peoples homes to look for ammo without the proper registration and serial numbers.
Finally were getting some real change, interesting times we live in. 8 years of religious cooks and now 8 more years of political cooks.

Edited by rcaffin on 03/17/2009 15:25:51 MDT.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: AIG!!! on 03/16/2009 20:44:04 MDT Print View

"It sure as H E L L would mean the end of UL backpacking as WE know it."

It would mean a lot more MYOG projects!

I dunno have any better ideas re: what else if not capitalism, but I sure as heck don't think the concepts of 'stimulating' economic growth are compatible with sustainability...unless it's growth in the sustainability industry??

And yes, all the management should be sacked without remuneration, but that's just not gonna happen. No one has the political will to make it happen :(

Edited by rcaffin on 03/17/2009 15:30:01 MDT.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: Re: AIG!!! on 03/16/2009 20:49:00 MDT Print View

Sorry, I am confusing economic growth with consumerism and population growth. There is at least a theoretical framework to think that capitalism and economic groth could work without increasing consumerism and popluation growth, but as yet no one has come up with a viable solution.

Edited by rcaffin on 03/17/2009 15:30:18 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: AIG!!! on 03/16/2009 20:49:48 MDT Print View

"These people should not receive a paycheck, let alone receive bonuses for their failure."

Problem is, that would make sense wouldn't it?

Dude...You gotta learn to speak Corporate Government :)

Edited by rcaffin on 03/17/2009 15:30:34 MDT.

Timothy Foutz
(glad777) - MLife

Locale: Virginia
AIG etc.... on 03/16/2009 21:19:34 MDT Print View

This madness must stop AIG should have been allowed to die as should Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. The only person who had a clue in the last Pres. race was Ron Paul he told everyone this was coming. He was laughed at and managed a 3rd place finish in the Republican race. Who's laughing now. Statism will not fix this problem it never fixes any problem for long.... but all you Statists take your shot. You caused all of this and you can't fix it. AIG and Fannie and Freddie etc. are just a part of the problem. The solution is end central banking to the largest degree possible and rein in spending and taxes cut goverment from 40% of the economy back to about 4%. Ending fractional reserve banking and income taxes would be great as well....
As to the Civilian Security Force (Obama Brown Shirts) just try it and see what happens......

Edited by glad777 on 03/17/2009 09:14:19 MDT.

Nate Meinzer
(Rezniem) - F

Locale: San Francisco
AIG on 03/16/2009 21:34:26 MDT Print View

Uhhh....you obviously don't understand the severity of the crisis and how AIG is the epicenter of the financial meltdown.

Had we let AIG just die, as you suggest, there would have been a global credit freeze with catastrophic consequences. (Job losses...food shortages...etc.)

Don't you remember the midnight meetings under the Bush administration....the pale faces coming out of the White House? We were never told outright how severe the problem was, but it scared the Sh** out of everyone who was privy to those briefings

We're witnessing economic tremors for sure, but we were incredibly close to "the big one".

Nate Meinzer
(Rezniem) - F

Locale: San Francisco
And I love the populism... on 03/16/2009 21:38:57 MDT Print View

Gotta love the "little people" chiming in...DOWN WITH ____....not understanding that if the banks and their insurers fail, YOU will be hurt hardest.

And the free-marketers who are now begging for these guys to die, why should we listen to you? It was free-market ideology that loosened restrictions on Credit-default swaps which caused this whole mess in the first place! And now you would have the whole economy collapse for the sake of your ideology?

Ayn Rand isn't going to put food on the table when your "free market" crashes the whole system.

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: And I love the populism... on 03/16/2009 21:45:48 MDT Print View

"It was free-market ideology that loosened restrictions on Credit-default swaps which caused this whole mess in the first place! And now you would have the whole economy collapse for the sake of your ideology?"

Free market doesnt mean "lawless" market any more than free society means lawless society.
Free-market ideology didnt cause this- corruption did.
and Im unemployed you cant scare me too much more, I would choose to live in a free state before I would I would choose to live under the thumb of the "well meaning" government, bring the Big one on- less bloody than bringing the the Big gov on.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: And I love the populism... on 03/16/2009 21:46:59 MDT Print View

While we're debating free markets vs. socialism, still wondering who/what got us into this mess, turning on each other, attacking "rich white peoples homes" (HUH?), Civilian Security Forces (whatever those are?)...

...AIG executives will STILL walk with millions in bonuses.

Ever think this is just the way it was supposed to work?

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Re: And I love the populism... on 03/16/2009 21:50:05 MDT Print View

"Civilian Security Forces (whatever those are?)..."

you cant be serious?

Nate Meinzer
(Rezniem) - F

Locale: San Francisco
Those bonuses on 03/16/2009 21:55:53 MDT Print View

are BS. I saw some guy joggin with an AIG sweatshirt the other day and felt like giving him the finger....after this, I'd feel justified in doing it.

Nate Meinzer
(Rezniem) - F

Locale: San Francisco
Free-market on 03/16/2009 22:01:05 MDT Print View

Brian,

What you fail to own up to is that the problem was exactly free-market ideology. The lack of regulations on credit-default swaps allowed the LAWFUL (and irrespondible) leveraging that caused this mess. Banks and investors spent millions lobbying D's and R's (both are equally culpable) so as to avoid regulation on CDS's. In a nutshell, security insurance is highly regulated to avoid JUST THIS kind of disaster. CDS's essentially acted like insurance without the capital requirements. This was lawful. This was all in the name of the free-market..cooked up in think-tanks and lobbied for hard by the free-marketers.

Europe seems to have less violence, btw, and so does Canada, for that matter....how's that? I thought Big Gov was more "bloody" (why you right-wingers are always so violence-obsessed, I'll never know) than Big Collapse?

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: And I love the populism... on 03/16/2009 22:02:53 MDT Print View

"you cant be serious?"

I'm not. I think it's kinda silly.
But I'm also amused at the fear it's striking in the hearts of so many, as if Obama was raising a giant socialist army...I bet people are arming themselves to fight it as we speak.
Seriously.

Brian UL
(MAYNARD76)

Locale: New England
Re: Free-market on 03/16/2009 22:08:03 MDT Print View

Free market doesn't mean free from all regulation, thats a left wing myth. Like were going to have children working as chimney sweeps.
Big gov will be bloody because people in the US will resist it. You know the Great state of New Hampshire threatened to succeed from the union along with a dozen other states?
Remember what happened last time states tried to succeed?
I dont worry about what Europe is like, They are free to live as they please and I ask the same.