1. Do you guys want a hydration sleeve?

Yes... I see why the UL people don't want it, but I like it. I can live without it though.

2. Keep, or skip, the shoulder strap pockets?

SKIP, hipbelt pockets are enough.

3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets, keep just the two side pockets (and replace the center pocket with a bungee system), or keep the center pocket and ditch the side pockets?

Ditch the center pocket, replace with bungee.

4. Proto above has a cinch closure - simplest and lightest option that preserves the max capacity of the packbag, but not weather resistant. Do you need a flap, roll-top closure, etc., or can you live with simple/light for the top?

Roll top is nice.

5. Do you like short torsos where the hip belt crosses your belly, or long torsos where the hip belt crosses your iliac crest?

Should be on the iliac crest. I'd hate to see the small sizes too long, though.

6. Provide "load lifter straps" (which don't really lift the load off the shoulders) which provide some latitude in fit, or skip'em and provide more pack sizes to dial in fit to your torso length, then bring the shoulder straps right over your collarbone crest?

I like load lifters because they allow me to switch up how the weight is carried. So yes, please.

I also hope your pack sizes will cater to female sizes as well as male.

*Another not quite UL thing I like... which I'm sure will be decried as unnecessary... is side compression straps.

In response to what Mark Bishop said, what kind of feature set and price would it take to get everyone here to give up the pack they use now? Or would anyone give up their current pack? And why can't hydration sleeves be made out of mesh, or have a 1/4 length sleeve at the bottom, and a hanger at the top to save weight? (not that I use one)

I'm also surprised none of the CA/PCT guys asked for specific volumes or attachements to hold a bear canister (not the daisy chain, which seems superflous).

Edited by skinewmexico on 03/18/2009 10:12:06 MDT.

1. No hydration sleeve

2. Skip the shoulder pockets - there are aftermarket pockets that offer more flexibility as well as it could interfere with those of us who put water bottles there.

3. Keep the other pockets

4. flap or roll-top closure

5. Torso length

6. Load lifters (you'll have some people who no matter what, your pack won't fit otherwise and they add minimal cost/weight).

1. Not if on the outside. I like my water inside and close to my back.

2. No shoulder strap pockets-I'll add them if I need them.

3. Side pockets look to go too high. Need to be easier to get a water bottle out of without taking off the pack. I prefer bungie over the back pocket.

4. Roll-top.

5. Long torso.

6. I like load lifters. I like to move the pack around a little for different conditions.

"In response to what Mark Bishop said, what kind of feature set and price would it take to get everyone here to give up the pack they use now? Or would anyone give up their current pack? And why can't hydration sleeves be made out of mesh, or have a 1/4 length sleeve at the bottom, and a hanger at the top to save weight? (not that I use one)

I'm also surprised none of the CA/PCT guys asked for specific volumes or attachements to hold a bear canister (not the daisy chain, which seems superflous)."

I threw out $80 early on. The GG Murmur at 36L is selling for $80, and is looks similar to the BPL prototype.

Mesh pocket for hydration is an option. But still extra weight. I use one on my main day pack, but not for longer trips.

It sounds like few are willing to give up their present pack, because this one has no 'new and improved' features. Probably would only appeal to someone who is moving to UL.

Those who hike CA/PCT already have a bear system, and may not be looking for a new pack. A lot of us are hoping/praying the Ursak gets approval. This is more important than a new pack. :)

My thoughts on your excellent pack endeavor:

1. No hydration sleeve.
2. No shoulder strap pockets.
3. Two outside pockets, sized for bear cannister / tent poles.
4. Flap closure at the top for weather resistance.
5. I like the hip belt to hit my iliac crest.
6. I think having a variety of pack sizes is best.

Also, I think there is a market for a light 32L back country ski pack. The only features it needs are an outside sleeve for a probe / shovel handle, and a pocket for a shovel blade. I'd buy one!

Just Make the "Right" Blend of a Breeze and Gossamer Gear Pack and You'll Do Fine

The original Golite Breeze should be the starting point for all lightweight packs. Add more, subtract something, only if you dare! Gossamer Gear got that mostly right, and mostly aimed at upsizing the Breeze, giving it some suspension, while using some fragile but light materials. My early Glen Pleski (spelling?) pack, predecessor to Gossamer Gear, got traded away, but my Breezes are "hold forever" packs.

Based on my experience, the two most important things to add to the Breeze are a sternum strap and simple webbing waist belt. Golite almost, but not quite, nailed the concept with the Jam - but maybe Jardine had design rights to the Breeze that forced Golite to tinker with the Jam and the result was less stellar than the Breeze.

Be sure to use good material. I am not sure silnylon is it - I had the Dawn pack from Golite - it seems sturdy for most uses, but I liked the Dyneema in the Breeze. The one thing I DO like about silnylon is its intrinsic, long lasting water repellency/resistance.

I don't like the "sleeping pad" flaps in the Pleski/Gossamer Designs. Seems brilliant at first, but I keep coming back to burrito rolling the pad and packing my other gear in it. So sizing the body of your new bag to work with a burrito rolled sleeping pad might be a good idea...

Finally, no water bladder pocket. The side pockets are ample for water. I don't like water systems that keep the water out of sight so you don't know how much is left, or put the bottle against my back. I just use large Platy bottles with spout caps in the side mesh pockets....

Other than that I, like many others, wait to see what you come up with. I a sure it will add some new design focus to this niche!

P.S. - come out with a "carry-on" luggage adaptation. Travel luggage is too heavy and over-designed!

1. ...hydration sleeve?
No.

2. ...shoulder strap pockets?
No. I bungee my water bottle there. (keep the hip pockets though)

3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets,...
Keep all. Tent in the big one, spare water or sundries in the sides.

4. Proto above has a cinch closure - ...
Flap. I think it does the deed and is much simpler to use than the roll top.

5. ...long torsos where the hip belt crosses your iliac crest?
Long.

6. Provide "load lifter straps" ...or more pack sizes ...?

Some method of accomodating different torso lengths and carry styles is important- otherwise you need 1" size increments = about 8 different sizes, and can expect lots of returns. Tim Marshall made a pack for my 6 year old with load lifters which seem to do a good job in making it adjustable. I suggest 3 sizes for gross tuning and load lifters for fine tuning. Otherwise adjustable attachments like SMD's ladder system.

Just a thought but I think this feedback would have been easier to compile if it were done in a survey or a poll format rather than open posts. You could have done a survey with your predefined answers, yet still allow for open-ended responses by including comment boxes. After all, you KNOW this thread is going to get huge! ;)

It would have been interesting to see the results in real time with a bar graph rather than someone manually calculating them IMHO.

Edited by jasonklass on 03/18/2009 19:03:29 MDT.

see page 5 summary

Edited by wandering_bob on 03/24/2009 22:23:23 MDT.

Bob,

Very nice work. Also to the previous poster, yes it would have been nice to do a poll, but Ryan J started the thread, and we would have ended up with two threads.

BTW, Bob if you hide the gridlines (Tools, Options, View, Uncheck Gridlines) only the charts will show up on in the pictures.

I just started a companion thread in "The G Spot" to brainstorm other gear that needs developing (besides a "BPL LW Pack 2009"). The best (profitable)ideas may then be made available by BPL or some other cottage maker. What can't we readily get, the way we'd really like it.

Thanks, but I did it that way deliberately, Nick. That's a .jpg screen capture of the Excel sheet so folks could see the data table. Maybe next time I'll rotate it 90° to make it easier to read.

I didn't feel like re-doing my summary post foremat.

Edited by wandering_bob on 03/18/2009 21:27:38 MDT.

1. Hydration sleeve

2. Skip or maybe include just 1 shoulder strap pockets

3. Two side pockets

4. flap, roll-top closure,

5. long torso

6. More pack sizes to dial in fit to your torso length.

and I share the comment about focus. Many items are often out of stock.

built in a factory that specializes in packs so construction quality is superb

Any chance we can find out where it will be manufactured?

1. Skip the hydration sleeve.
2. Keep the hip pockets, but ditch the shoulder strap pockets. Those D-rings are handy to attach smaller items, but pockets are cumbersome and superfluous.
3. Keep the pockets. The side pockets are good for Platy's and the like. The back is good to stuff a wet tarp in to dry without worrying about it slipping out of the bungees after getting snagged by a branch. Just make sure the mesh is sturdy enough and not TOO billowy. Besides, if you keep those daisy chains, anyone who wants can always add a bungee rack to the pack using them.
4. Keep the cinch closure. Personally, I like one small cinch strap for the top as well.
5. Make it a long torso. I know we're carrying relatively light loads, but transferring the weight of a fully loaded pack to the hips makes sense.
6. Ditch the load-lifters and make the various sizes.

!)No hydration sleeve
2)shoulder pockets: 1-2 large enough for small camera/binos(measure 4X3X2)(since you asked)(And waterproof:)
3)My only experience w/belt pockets is that they bulge and interfere with normal arm swinging, So I sent them back. If you can figure that out,I'd like them.
4)roll top that can close way down if your pack is not full
5)load lifters and sternum strap (or I can make my own)
6)Iam female w/ shorter torso but definitely wear my pack on my hips
7) Also don't care about the daisy chain but a couple of attaching places would be good
8)3 pockets but shorted on the sides

Edited by rebtrea on 03/19/2009 20:16:38 MDT.

see page 5 summary

Edited by wandering_bob on 03/24/2009 22:24:04 MDT.

Yes, on Hydration sleeve

No, on strap pockets

Yes, on Hip belt pockets

Yes, on load lifters

I require the hip belt to ride on the hips, not around the belly.

Edited by grinder on 03/23/2009 14:38:57 MDT.

Hello Everyone,

First, thanks for your overwhelming feedback.

Second, I hope the rest of the cottage industry is listening. A lot of this stuff could be incorporated as well into their packs and I hope this forum lifts up the industry with the communications here.

Third, we have a design meeting on Wednesday where we'll be discussing this forum thread, and the issue of this particular pack's uniqueness, in the context of the new pack.

We'll keep you posted, and THANK YOU. This helps us a LOT by not allowing us to waste our time doing things we shouldn't be doing.

Best,
Ryan