Ken,

We've been in the manufacturing side since 2003, since we commissioned quilts from Nunatak and bivies from Oware.

But, yes, as for focus: we are. That's why we eliminated the print mag, we won't be doing art commissioning any more (that was a one time gig), and most recently, we have eliminated advertising completely.

Thus, BPL's focus will lie in three areas:

1. Editorial content publishing
2. Retail & OEM Gear manufacturing
3. Education services

#1 and #2 have been here since Day 1 and #3 is a logical extension of #1 for us.

These are the three areas that our community has asked us to focus on, so that is indeed where we are going.

Fewer quality articles? I'm not sure where that perception is coming from. We expanded the breadth and depth of our editorial calendar significantly since the latter part of 2008, in response to the big reader survey asking for same.

And, as for "things always out of stock in the store" - I'll concede on that one. There is some intentionality there - dumping a bunch of inventory in late 2008 to free up cash to carry our company through the lows of this recession. As a result, we're starting from very low inventory levels and are being pretty cautious about ramping it back up. But spring is here, and by April 7, we plan to have the shop pretty much fully stocked.

Anyway, the packs have been in the queue before the market tanked, so I'm only posting photos of the latest round for feedback, not promising that we are going to allocate resources away from "quality articles" or "store inventory" to bring them to market for all y'all soon. Like I said, we may do a small run just to get a few in the hands of those that have been asking for them the most.

RJ

1. No hydration sleeve

2. Skip the shoulder strap pockets -- but how about a horizontal piece of material (about an inch or two wide) placed across one (or both) of the shoulder straps that could be used to clip or otherwise attach an item or small pouch to one or both of the shoulder straps if desired?

3. Keep just the two side pockets and replace the center pocket with a bungee system (have about 4 fabric loops spaced down the each of the four vertical edges of the pack so that cord can be laced through the loops when needed, or left off when not -- in addition to allowing gear to be secured to the sides or rear of the pack, the loops with cord threaded through them would also afford a means of compression for the sides of the pack and/or across the back of the pack (doesn't look like the proto has any side or rear compression straps at present, which would be a big negative that can be solved with little weight penalty if there are a system of loops provided as described above for use with cord -- at least to lace up the entire rear panel and also compress the sides above the side mesh pockets) -- AND IF rear mesh pocket is also included, would be nice to still have about 4 loops sewn up each of the two vertical rear seams on the INSIDE of the rear pocket -- with the first ones starting from each of the rear pocket's two bottom corners and the upper loops placed at or near the top of the back panel -- so that a cord could be cross-laced through the loops to compress the back of the pack while still leaving access unimpeded into the back pocket even with the cord laced through the loops and compressing the rear of the pack (the Ark pack by MLD has this arrangement of loops inside the back pocket starting at the inside corners of the back pocket and ending up near the top -- very helpful if the need exists for compressing the pack across the back)

4. Cinch closure is good, with sufficient material to adequately cover contents even when the pack is stuffed full to overflowing -- and small waterproof flap also good

5. Long torsos with hip belt crossing iliac crest

6. Provide "load lifter straps" -- although they don't really lift the load off the shoulders, they do provide latitude in fit, and also keep the number of sizes for the pack to maybe just two (less than 20" torso and torso of 20" or more seems about standard); and please be sure to leave adequate space between top of shoulder straps to keep from pinching into neck

As for daisy chains -- my strong preference is skip 'em and save the weight, but if the daisy chains were also to be available for securing the handle of an ice ax or other item sticking up from the ice ax loop at the bottom of the pack (trek poles, for example), there would need to be some means provided for tying off the upper portion of the ice ax or poles at or near the top of the pack

A last thought -- if there is a rear pocket, pleated non-stretch mesh with plenty of "pleat" might be better than stretchy mesh -- with some means of securing/snugging the top of the pocket tight, maybe a strong elastic cord sewn into a narrow sleeve of material horizontally across the top of the rear pocket, with a toggle at the middle of the cord that could be tightened?

Oh, yes, and maybe some options for color of materials for the pack? Just kidding.

Thanks for soliciting the input!

JRS

Edited by JRScruggs on 03/13/2009 01:39:30 MDT.

Well .... why not one 46Lt pack with all the add-ons (hydration sleeve,shoulder strap pockets, mesh pockets ... etc ...) and one 33/36lts really ultralight whitout add-ons.????

1. YES i prefer one hydration sleeve ..

2. Keep ONE shoulder strap pocket

3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets, The main pocket is useful, and the net helps to protect the main body.

4. May be a minimun closure is a good idea but cinch closure is ok

Now the big questions: fit.

5. Please i prefer long torsos where the hip belt crosses your iliac crest? And a good useful suporting hip belt

6. I prefer more pack sizes to dial in fit to your torso length

Ryan,

Last year I spent several months shopping for the 'perfect' lightweight pack. I settled on a ULA Conduit for just over $100. My comments on your prototype will be referenced to my experiences with this popular ULA pack... the features and benefits I like, plus its shortcomings.

Size/weight - don't know how you are measuring, but my ULA at 50L weighs 16.9 oz without hip pockets. So far, the material of the ULA seems pretty durable.

1. Hydration sleeve - I don't consider these set-ups as lightweight. Not necessary.

2. Shoulder strap pockets - make them optional and removable. I sometimes use a couple MLD pockets with my ULA at .5 oz each and a perfect size. Still need to figure a better method to keep them from sliding. They use those plastic strap quick clips. Probably sewing the web strap to the wider fabric, about 1" below where the web is attached would work. I like to keep my camera in one, because I don't feel comfortable keeping this expensive item in a hip pocket when I remove the pack and lay it on the ground. I like the MLD Velcro closure, plus the plastic snap.

3. I like 3 mesh pockets. Especially to stuff a wet poncho in, or keep tent stakes and wind gear in. If it is tight, you aren't going to stuff a lot of stuff in them. I like to keep a water bottle in each side pocket. Your side pockets look too tall. The ULA has much smaller pockets and are angled for easy access to water bottles. Problem is a 1 liter platy will fall out of the ULA side pocket, requiring a heavier Gatoraide bottle. I am thinking about asking Brian if he can redo mine with no angle, or a higher angle. I have never seen an angled side pocket that is truly easy to access while moving anyway. For me, I usually just stop and take a water break, or just sling the pack on one shoulder, take out the bottle and drink while walking. You need to be a contortionist to grab something from a side pocket, IMO.

4. Top - roll top extension collar. More capacity if needed. I have a MLD top lid which I sometimes use with my ULA. Doesn't fit perfectly and weighs 2.5 oz, but can be useful once in a while. The top lid stays at home most of the time. An extension roll top is a versatile option.

5. Short torso... ultralight pack doesn't need to shift a lot of weight to the hips. I like the belt high. On a heavy pack, it needs to be lower.

6. Load lifter straps... extra weight and marketing hype.

Notes on #5 & #6, I am 5' 11" and it is easy for me to find a well-fitting pack. Actually I am going to remove the sternum staps on my ULA, because the should straps fit me perfect. This is the challenge, to minimize sizes and cover a large range of body shapes/sizes. It might be easier to fix our economic woes, than to devise a small product line that adapts to many sizes of torsos!!

Hip pockets - I like them. For me, hip pockets are a requirement in a pack. The ULA pockets are removeable, but a little bit of work, because you have to undo the shoulder stap buckles. They weigh about 1 oz each. I love the ULA hip pockets. They are much bigger than the ones on my Gregory 95L. Brian's hip pockets are simply wonderful.

Question - I know you need to generate sales to stay in business. You have some great products, especially the Merino Hoody, which fills a unique niche in the market place. How is your pack going to fit into the market place? How is it different that the offerings from ULA, MLD, GoLit, 6 Moons, etc? Is is just a re-hash of what is already available. Please don't take these questions as a negative... but I would like to see something new and unique. The pack isn't that light, doesn't have anything already available somewhere else. So the last benefit you might offer is price. Can you sell it for $80 or less?... Probably not. I just bring these things up, because there is a cost to product R&D, and you must assess the market before investing in production. BTW, I have found this site and your book excellent resources, so I am a BPL fan... just to set the record straight.

Good luck on whatever path you choose, and it is a nice touch to see you solicit feedback from your readers.

I recall a statement made some time ago regarding packs -

"Me, I'd be inclined to skip the pack frame attempt at dual use and store the pad in its minimal volume configuratioｎ　（ｄｅｆｌａｔｅｄ　ａｎｄ　ｒｏｌｌｅｄ　ｕｐ）　ｉｎ　ｔｈｅ　ｐａｃｋ　ａｎｄ　ｒｅｌｙ　ｏｎ　ｓｏｍｅｔｈｉｎｇ 　ｅｌｓｅ　ｆｏｒ　ｐａｃｋ　ｓｔｒｕｃｔｕｒｅ ." [sic]

I don't see any mention of support in this design, so I'm wondering how this pack fits into that view.

Thanks.

Edited by greg23 on 03/13/2009 07:02:10 MDT.

1. No Hydration Sleeve

2. Keep the shoulder strap pockets

3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets

4. Prefer a flap, partly because it can help move the weight toward the body when cinched down.

Now the big questions: fit.

5. long torsos where the hip belt crosses your iliac crest

6. Provide "load lifter straps"

1. no

2. maybe, what can you fit in it

3. keep all mesh pockets. personally I like a beaver tail for the middle. a beaver tail with a outside mesh pocket would be great. i got to learn how to sew one of these days

4. either way

5. iliac crest? you use your tounge prettier than a twenty dollar...nevermind

6. the "load lifter straps"

also make the belt pockets bigger, on the huge side maybe. big enough for camera, maps, lunch. it looks like you can only fit a couple of snickers bars in them. i don't like taking my pack off for little things.

Edited by KG4FAM on 03/13/2009 10:52:51 MDT.

Your business plan really isn't any of my business, but is this going to fill a niche that doesn't exist, or be cheaper than existing products? It just seems to me like the UL pack market is pretty saturated.

This looks like more of the same. There are plenty of ordinary packs already being sold.

I'd like to see a series of innovative designs for various uses coming out of the community. These could be shared as plans, for anyone to use. Need production? Sell by subscription as demand warrants. This might not be profitable in itself but might have more value to the backpacking world.

I have or have had packs with elasticized mesh, expansion collars, extra pockets and pouches, zippers, daisy chains, tool loops, a fixed volume, and doodads everywhere. Having made my own packs for a few years, I've found another direction.

While I'm still a lousy sewer, what I'm making now is both practical and clean, focusing on utility and adjustability. If I had plans I'd share them, but maybe that can come later. And it's possible that what I like is uninteresting to everyone else, but it does work.

My packs vary in volume as consumables are used while remaining tight, sleek, and compact. One pack serves equally well for both short and long trips. I don't have tool loops or crampon hangers or iPod pockets or internal bladders with sucking tubes because I don't want them.

Better to have different designs for different uses, I think. I backpack and don't climb, or race, or ski, and travel light, and like simplicity, so this works. I live out of my pack on the trail, without unpacking it at every break. Everything I need is easily at hand while remaining secure.

I'm moving toward smaller pack bags with removable external storage for temporary overflow. My pockets are huge and use positive compression instead of elastic, and can expand to inhale anything, or collapse back to nothing, easily.

Try stuffing your rain wear or (better) six liters of water into those tight mesh pockets. I dare you. The usual, boring, unimaginative, stale designs make it impossible to slip in more than a hankie. And then the elastic ages into uselessness.

Yes, I think we can do better.

My question is about the pack fabric - is it 2 oz silnylon? If so, how much does it stretch? I much prefer a stiff pack material, and think a durable, 2 oz. low stretch pack fabric alone would be newsworthy.

I like the daisy chain on the back - BMW started with mountaineering packs, right?

1. If it's cheap, keep it. Very easy to cut out if not needed.

2. I think a detachable pocket, with anchors allowing tight fastening to either shoulder straps or hip belt would be best given differences in preference. I would include one of these with the pack, as I can't imagine needing more than this at your fingertips. Perhaps others could be available as options.

3. I think two side pockets made out of the dense, stretch mesh would be ideal. I find it less snag-prone than larger meshes, and the stretch keeps everything secure (a recurring theme of mine). I would replace the rear pocket with a bungee system for drying wet items. The only thing I use these pockets for are water (one pocket) and snacks/ maps (the other).
4. I prefer roll-top, for, again, the ability to keep different volumes packed tightly.
5. Longer torso - I can't stand anything across my stomach.
6. Keep the lifters - I find that they help keep the top of the pack against my back.

Gosh - now I really want to make a pack!

see page 5 summary

Edited by wandering_bob on 03/24/2009 22:20:32 MDT.

>Time for some quick totals on responses.

You're a more industrious man than I, Bob. Thanks for meta-analysis! :)

6. Load lifters - too close to call as some "yes" votes are really "optional". (Yes = 12, No = 9)

full disclosure: I'm in the YES! column on this issue.

Having taken care of that detail, allow me to suggest that if they are included but not wanted by any purchaser, their presence can be remedied using this low cost solution or perhaps this pricier solution

@Jim

ba hahahhahahahaah

Shoulder strap pockets yes zippers no, no hydration sleeve.. I always put my bladder on top of everything inside the pack or in an outside mesh pocket. Keep all outside pockets. I like the roll top with clip fasteners. don't worry about weather but please no velcro.

Absolutely iliac crest. When I am sucking wind while humping over a tall pass I breath with not only my chest but with my belly as well. I breath much better with the hip belt lower.

Load lifters yes. I like pulling the stays in tight. For me it feels like the pack fits better and conforms more to the shape of my body. When it conforms more it has less of a chance of sliding down. Whatever Dan McHale does with this is correct. On his packs a lot of the pressure from my straps is at the front of my body at my chest relieving some of the pressure at the top of my shoulders.

Does the pack have stays?

Greatest fit variability ideas...

1. Multiple LENGTH shoulder straps. Nobody seems to make long shoulder straps. Almost every off-the-rack pack puts the buckle in my armpit.

2. Multiple size and swappable belts. Same thing as #1.

The main thing is that the "sack" is universal. Make the best sack you can and then let users put the shoulder harness and belt and pockets and do-dads and whatever they want onto that.

The most innovative packs I've ever used are both 6+ years old. The original Kelty Cloud (and later Flight) were a component-based dream that has never been matched. The most variable fit pack ever made as far as I know is the Granite Gear Nimbus Ozone. I did the math once and I believe there were literally HUNDREDS of options for fit on ONE pack sack. It's the pack I still use today.

Combine the FIT options of the Nimbus Ozone, with the COMPONENT options of the Kelty Cloud series into a <2 lb. pack and I'll name my next kid "BPL" :)

1. Do you guys want a hydration sleeve?

No- But internal pad pocket sleeve could be used for hydration

2. Keep, or skip, the shoulder strap pockets?

Skip the should strap pocket, but add daisy chains.


3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets, keep just the two side pockets (and replace the center pocket with a bungee system), or keep the center pocket and ditch the side pockets?

Keep all three pockets.

4. Proto above has a cinch closure - simplest and lightest option that preserves the max capacity of the packbag, but not weather resistant. Do you need a flap, roll-top closure, etc., or can you live with simple/light for the top?

Maybe a Y top compression strap like GG with an optional top flap like MLD.

Now the big questions: fit.

5. Do you like short torsos where the hip belt crosses your belly, or long torsos where the hip belt crosses your iliac crest?

Do not care. At less than 20 pounds the hip belt is for stability and not weight transfer.

6. Provide "load lifter straps" (which don't really lift the load off the shoulders) which provide some latitude in fit, or skip'em and provide more pack sizes to dial in fit to your torso length, then bring the shoulder straps right over your collarbone crest?

No load lifters. Load lifters need a pack stay to be effective. Just added weight for very little utility.


What niche are you hoping to fill? Lightest? Cheapest? Most durable? There are a good variety of packs available from ULA, GossamerGear, Six Moon Designs, Mountain Laurel Designs and zpacks. Businesses do not like doing business with their competitors. Those owners will likely stop posting on the forums when you start to compete with them.

The Artic Pack is a good example of partnering to fill an unmet demand. What unmet need does this pack fill?

1. Absolutely not.
2. Skip.
3. Side pockets only, but what about making one side a double a la GG Mariposa/Miniposa? The bottom one being tilted forward for easy bottle access.
4. A cinch-top with a flap vs. a roll-top will probably weight about the same, so I would go with roll-top for simplicity's sake.
5. Short please. An UL pack shouldn't be loaded to the point that you need to offload the weight onto your hips.
6. More pack sizes.

My 2 cents = 0.01550628 Euros (as of 14 Mar 2009)

1. No
2. Skip
3. Keep all three outside mesh pockets
4. Cinch closure - or roll top
5. Hip belt that crosses the iliac crest
6. Provide more pack sizes to dial in fit

Of course I've just described several excellent cottage industry packs already in production.