confusion with Ray Way
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shannon stoney
(shannonstoney)
confusion with Ray Way on 01/03/2006 10:21:25 MST Print View

Hi, I am having some difficulty dealing with Ray Way, Ray Jardine's business. I wonder if anybody else has had this experience. I am trying to buy the tarp kit without the book, as I already own the book. They are saying that they don't have any record of me buying the book. I don't remember where I bought it; it may have been Amazon. Why would they be concerned about this? Is this part of their worry about intellectual property? Like, maybe I borrowed the book from somebody and that's against the rules? I don't understand. Anybody know what's going on here?

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: confusion with Ray Way on 01/03/2006 11:51:25 MST Print View

Curious, I perused the site and while they note the kit is to be used in conjunction with the book I couldn't find any documentation that they wouldn't sell the kit without the book.

As you note, books get passed around and don't dissolve with the first reading, so it's hard to imagine the logic at work here. That said, they're free to make up whatever rules they want at the drop of an ultralight hat, so this could be an undocumented and/or spur-of-the-moment rule.

Have you checked out Henry Shires' DIY tarptent plans? They might rescue you from further adventures in Jardineland. Either way, best of luck with your project.

mark henley
(flash582) - F
Re: confusion with Ray Way on 01/03/2006 11:54:13 MST Print View

I'd be interested in buying the used or the new copy of the Tarp book only ... how much do you want for it?

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Ray Way on 01/03/2006 12:14:44 MST Print View

I too would look into Henry Shires tarptent DIY plan.

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: Ray Way on 01/03/2006 14:08:01 MST Print View

I also am a tarpent fan .... but some folks prefer a flat tarp's flexibility to use a less enclosed pitch for nights you think will have fair weather.

Henry has the MYOG tarptent instructions here.

Thru-hiker has them here and sells tarptent kits. Thru-hiker also sells materials that could be used to make the tarp described in Jardine's book if that is what you want to make.

Edited by jcolten on 01/03/2006 14:08:43 MST.

shannon stoney
(shannonstoney)
other tarp kits on 01/03/2006 18:47:19 MST Print View

Hi, thanks for the link to Henry Shire's tarptent site. I like the look of those a lot. Also I like the Thru-hiker site too.

As for whether Ray Way will sell the kit without the book, I couldn't find anything on the site that specifically forbids this, but the only kits I could find that they offered included the book. And there are several admonishments that if it's not on the order page, they don't sell it.

Maybe I will get an email from Jenny tomorrow about whether I can buy the kit separate from the book. I hope so.


(Anonymous)
Re: other tarp kits on 01/04/2006 02:13:05 MST Print View

Warning so that this does not happen to any of you.

I have a different problem with the two Jardine related websites. It appears, based upon the message I receive when connecting to either site, that I HAVE BEEN BANNED from his two websites.

Based upon the indications that I have received, any computer that I have previously used to connect to either site, is now unable to connect. Is IP Address tracking taking place? Is the use of a personal firewall an issue? Mine is set to not act as a server to outside connections, but will still accept connections from remote systems. Is this the problem? The local system acting as a server can be a bad thing, since the remote system can "demand" information or the execution of code (known as a "run on demand" paradigm - Java Applets, for example, can work this way - versus a "run on request" paradigm).

Just tried a new computer this morning and I didn't have a problem connecting to either website. I will next install a personal firewall on this new computer and see if I can connect. Is anyone else running a personal firewall, but is still able to connect?

If I am banned, I find it very strange, as any Posts I have made about the great Ray Jardine have either been supportive or at worst neutral, but generally supportive - never a single derogatory Post. Ray Jardine knows that I post to this website. Don't ask. Is this the reason for the ban? He also will no longer reply to email that I have sent to his personal email address.

I'm not loosing any sleep over this. I just want to alert others to this strange, inexplicable phenomenon and hope that it does not happen to any of you.


(Anonymous)
Re: Re: other tarp kits on 01/04/2006 02:45:01 MST Print View

Problem is not a personal firewall. New computer, with a different IP Address, can still connect even with personal firewall running in a most extremely secure mode of operation.

Looks like I may have been BANNED, DEEP-SIXED, CUT-OFF, DEEMED TO BE A LEPER or an ex-KGB/now-FSB SPY out to steal top-secret trade secrets.

May all of you fare better than I. Excuse me, I need to go dry my tears.

shannon stoney
(shannonstoney)
replying to Ray Way emails on 01/04/2006 06:29:26 MST Print View

There is a problem replying to emails that Jenny sends me. You can't just hit "reply" and mail back to her. If you do, it bounces. You have to go back to the website and go to the Contacts page and send another email. But it sounds like what is happening to you is different from that. You can't even go to the web page?

I just posted a very positive review of the Ray Way quilt that I just sewed. Just to let you know, Ray, if you're reading this.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: other tarp kits on 01/04/2006 07:27:13 MST Print View

Anybody can send them a message from their website after going through their three-tiered nonsense of repeatedly telling you they will only respond to shipment or order issues.

shannon stoney
(shannonstoney)
guess I can't order the tarp kit on 01/08/2006 07:48:05 MST Print View

I never heard back from Jenny about the tarp kit. I guess they decided that since I bought the book from Amazon, I can't buy the kit separately from the book. That's ok. I can get all the stuff I need to make it from the Rain Shed. But, I wonder, why would they pass up an opportunity to sell me the kit? It seems like a poor business policy.

Mike Storesund
(mikes) - F
Re: confusion with Ray Way on 01/08/2006 08:29:18 MST Print View

Having little to do with the individual other than purchasing and reading his books, based on what I have read from his books and in various posts, it does seem that Ray is somewhat a Bohemian. Meant as “an artist who has an unconventional life-style that often reflects protest against or indifference to convention.” (Webster’s Collegiate Dictionary) Some may even consider the ideas a little eccentric. This could easily carry over to business practices. But hey… it is his business and he has offered many great ideas and insights.


(Anonymous)
Re: banning from ray's sites on 01/08/2006 09:54:59 MST Print View

I posted some snide comments here about Ray here a few months back when he was threatening to close his business (I suggested he was going insane from publicity--from the looks of things, this was just a temporay bout of insanity and he's doing okay again now), and people jumped all over me for being anonymous. Well, now you know why. Ray keeps a *BEEP*, and once you're on it, for whatever reason, forget about buying any of his kits. And that concerns me, because I think his kits are a great deal. I certainly don't want to be banned myself from buying any new kits he offers.

For all the nasty things I said about Ray then and now, I actually like the guy. The world needs fruitcakes like him to stir things up and challenge the conventional wisdom. He's not the only fruitcake in the outdoor business, incidentally. Read through the newsletter archives at wiggys.com for another fine example of nuttiness. Even Jack Stephenson at warmlite.com can get a little crazy when he starts ranting about goretex. BTW Stephenson is right about the miracles of vapor barrier, and Wiggy is right about the superiority of continuous fiber polyester, aka polarguard, over other types of polyester (especially for sleeping bags and quilts), and Ray Jardine is right about all sorts of things, but none of these gurus is infallible.

shannon stoney
(shannonstoney)
gurus on 01/08/2006 12:13:37 MST Print View

I don't expect Ray to be a guru. But I just think it's strange that you can buy the book at Amazon, to see if you want to make the tarp kit, but then you can't buy the tarp kit separate from the book. In effect you have to buy two books if you bought the book at Amazon ahead of time.

The book seems to be self-published, so if they don't want to sell the book separately from the kit, why let Amazon sell it?

I assume that they decided to sell the tarp kit only with the book to prevent people from borrowing the book from a friend and just ordering the materials. But why would that be so terrible? And what if you wanted to make two tarps, say a one person and a two person tarp? Would you have to buy two books in that case also? I assume that if they have a record of you having bought the book once, you can order another kit without the book. But again, why sell the book on Amazon if they only want you to get it through them?

Also, it's not that hard to figure out what you need from the book and then get the stuff from another seller. So, you would think that if you wanted to compete in the marketplace, you would sell the kit without the book, to prevent people from buying the materials elsewhere. I am willing to pay a bit more for the kit for the convenience of having them figure what I need for me. But...I guess they don't want my business very badly.

Ray or Jenny, if you read this, please email me asap and tell me you want to do business with me. If not, I will go ahead and get the stuff elsewhere.


(Anonymous)
re: Ray's intransigence on 01/08/2006 12:31:18 MST Print View

I think you will find it hard to beat Ray's prices for the tarp-tent kit, even if you have to buy it with the book, especially after factoring in shipping charges. Also, some of the parts, such as the ultra-thin lifter lines (assuming you choose to use them--i don't since they are too hard to untie), are not widely available at the fabric stores.

Methinks Ray's paranoia is contagious and rubbing off on his potential customers. I suspect the real reason Ray won't sell the tarp kit separately is not to prevent sharing of the book or other theft of his intellectual property, but rather simply because he doesn't want to be flexible. Your name isn't in the list of previous customers, therefore you aren't eligible for buying the tarp-tent book alone. Case closed, no further discussion allowed. Ray's way or the highway. Never mind that Ray's way doesn't take into account people who bought the book through Amazon...

Actually, I can sympathize with Ray in this case. I once ran a business myself and I found it very stressful when customers wanted me to bend my standard procedures for whatever reason. The first few times this happened, I was happy to be helpful, but then after a while it became a real drag dealing with these "problem customers". If you want to avoid too much stress in business, at some point you have to establish standard procedures, and to hell with customers who insist on special treatment, even when the special treatment is justified, as it appears to be in your case. Just my 2 cents worth.

shannon stoney
(shannonstoney)
valued customer? on 01/08/2006 14:18:21 MST Print View

I AM a previous customer. That's the weird thing. I bought a two person quilt kit last week and sewed it and used it and posted a very positive review about it. I liked it so much that I then tried to order the tarp kit, but to no avail.

Anyway, I have to go back to work in a week and have no more time for sewing, for a while. In May I will try again to order the kit and then if all else fails, maybe I'll order it with the book and then sell the extra book, and pass the problem on to the person who buys the book but then won't be able to buy the kit!

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: valued customer? on 01/08/2006 14:22:37 MST Print View

there is always the gear swap section on BPL :-)

shannon stoney
(shannonstoney)
price of tarp kit on 01/08/2006 16:16:07 MST Print View

You are right, the tarp kit that Ray sells is very reasonably priced. I priced all the fabrics and webbing to make it, using the Rain Shed's prices, and it came to about ten dollars more than Ray's kit would be not including the book. Plus he throws in some free thread. So maybe it would make sense to go ahead and buy his kit, silly policies notwithstanding. It's about the same amount of money either way.

I am just worried about the fate of the extra book, though! If I sell it on the gear swap list, it's only fair to inform the potential buyer that he or she may be banned from buying the kit sans book. And what if I sell it on Amazon?!?

Mike Barney
(eaglemb) - F

Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
Re: Re: Re: other tarp kits on 01/08/2006 19:11:32 MST Print View

"Anonymous", try www.megaproxy.com , and many others like it (google Anonymous Proxy....) You can remain anon, and the far end really can't tell who you are.

<xnip> Anonymous lamenting on being banned from 2 web sites.

Edited by eaglemb on 01/08/2006 19:12:35 MST.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Re: Re: Re: other tarp kits on 01/08/2006 23:43:20 MST Print View

.

Edited by pj on 01/08/2006 23:44:39 MST.