I have been using a tarptent but want to try just a tarp. In thinking about this, I kind of wonder what the tarp is actually for.

Why do you use a tarp at all? What's the purpose? If it isn't going to rain, why bother?

I have been using a tarptent but want to try just a tarp. In thinking about this, I kind of wonder what the tarp is actually for.

Why do you use a tarp at all? What's the purpose? If it isn't going to rain, why bother?

• Weather forecasting is not reliable in many locales


• Weather forecasting is completely unreliable beyond 48 hours in some locales


• Some locales frequently get heavy dew

personally, i used tarps as insurance against foul weather. weather reports are pure mystery, and sometimes its hard to read the skies when you are deep in canyon. a tarp, at 7-8 ounces was a companion of mine. I still use a tarp, almost full time, but its strung between 2 trees.

I setup my tarp each night regardless of weather since it takes less than 5 minutes to setup and take down. As stated the weather isnt always predictable especially in higher elevations. I "think" that it is slightly warmer under the tarp. At the minimum it does shed wind. I also think there is a nice pyschological nature of having a walled in placed to retire to.

Jamie

I enjoy a lightweight, non-waterproof bivy for some conditions. The bivy allows me to camp on smaller ledges, ridges, or sandy areas less suitable for tents (especially useful when you are trying to minimize impact in desert areas by camping on slickrock), keeps dust, dirt, creatures, and wind out of the sleeping bag when sleeping under the stars, fends of dew and minor moisture, is easy to setup, and provides an cool aesthetic experience (see Andrew Skurka's many discussions of this). However, a non-waterproof bivy, while avoiding many of the issues involved with waterproof bivies, does not stand up to sustained rain. Unless you want to take the risk, a small tarp is the answer to this problem. Together, tarp and bivy can be a formidable combination in nasty weather, and if one ends up stuck in those conditions, tarps sometimes provide more practical living space than a single or double wall tent for the weight (especially if you hike with trekking poles, or string between trees).

According to postings elsewhere on this site, a tarp may also improve bivy comfort overnight by blocking radiation from the night sky that can cool the top surface of the bivy below the ambient temperature of the air, thus reducing the risk of condensation inside and outside the bivy. Apparently, trees can also block this radiation. I can't speak with authority to the range of conditions where this would make substantial real-world difference, but it is interesting to consider!

I know your question wasn't about bivies per se, but it is always useful to evaluate questions about gear based on the system within which they will be used. Evaluation of pros and cons may change with conditions, number of hikers, experience of those hikers, personal preference, etc. For example, I've seen some on this site who bring a tent and a tarp to provide more sheltered space when backpacking with children.

Edited by dubendorf on 01/24/2009 12:58:38 MST.

Thank you. I hiked the PCT last summer (1500 miles) and put up my tent every night because of bugs (giant ants and mosquitos). As summer progressed, there really was no other reason for the tent and I longed to sleep without it.

Unless there's a real chance of rain, I can't see the reason to set up the tarp. I guess dew is something to consider. Maybe ashes from forest fires would be a reason for the tarp.

My tarp is an Equinox 1.1oz silnylon, 8x10 feet. Adequate protection from the elements and also kind of a big barrier between me and the world.

Diane,

Congratulations on hiking the PCT. I've not yet attempted any long distance hiking, and look forward to doing so. You have hit on what I feel is a real benefit of the bivy/tarp system: its flexibility. One can pick and choose what kind of protection they desire at the time, whereas with tents it is a bit more of an all or nothing proposition. For me, I like to see the stars if at all possible, I like to feel close to my surroundings, and I like to nestle or perch in places where tents might not work. If you need bug protection but not rain protection, you can leave the tarp in the backpack and sleep in the bivy. If you need rain protection but don't have to worry about blowing wind, tarps provide an airy, open shelter with better views that a tent. In wind and rain, low-pitched tarp and bivy to catch anything from the sides. I am by no means advocating against all uses of tents, or insisting on any shelter orthodoxy- there is no BEST shelter. But in certain situations, I appreciate what a tarp/bivy combo offers.

Edited by dubendorf on 01/24/2009 15:56:16 MST.

I was thinking of skipping the bivy. Seems unnecessary with an 8x10 tarp. It would also cause my shelter to weigh more than the Gossamer Gear tent I have. I'm only 5'3" tall and feel lost underneath the tarp. It's like the Taj Mahal.

In my local area (Santa Barbara), I can rely on the 5-day forecast because it's so arid here. So a bivy seems like unneeded weight.

What do you think?

Diane,
As you commented in an earlier post, you would set up your tent every night for protection from bugs (ants...) even if rain was not a threat. I find that I will often use my light bivy for the same reason, with or without my tarp.

The tarp and bivy accomplish different things- depends on what you feel you can go without.

If I don't anticipate rain, and I'm confident that unexpected showers may be at most inconvenient but not dangerous, then I leave behind the tarp rather than the bivy. For example, a late spring two night trip in the southern Utah desert. Dry conditions prevail, and thus the primary function of the tarp, rain protection, is not needed. The bivy, however, provides protection from dew, wind (very common), critters, adds some warmth, and keeps the clingy desert dust out of the sleeping bag. Plus, I don't need to worry about camping in an area where surface conditions sometimes make staking out a tarp downright tricky, especially in windy conditions (no trees, loose sandy soil, long slabs of slickrock, lots of microbial growth you don't want to disrupt with stakes or moving around rocks, etc.).

Tarp without bivy would work just fine in many circumstances- dew protection, some wind protection depending on the pitch, and less confining than the bivy. Furthermore, a head net or other similar rig would provide critter protection if needed. In this case, the bivy could be left behind as long as you felt comfortable going without its added wind/weather protection. In extreme weather, if you could only choose a non-waterproof bivy or a tarp, I think the tarp would be the most likely choice (unless you were willing to flip the bivy upside down to its waterproof underside and gut it out). I'm sure others could expand upon or offer alternatives to this pro/con list!

EDIT: just read Thom's post and second it.
Jamie

Edited by dubendorf on 01/24/2009 16:57:42 MST.

Another thought to add- I feel the dilemma to bring or not to bring the tarp because my GG White Lightnin' 8x10 is, by tarp standards, a very robust 20 oz. or so. Other tarps or tarp ponchos fall down around 5 oz. or even lighter, so that changes things.

Well, I did get an A16 bug bivy for the bugs. I haven't used it yet. Seems like just the thing, though. I tried to make one of my own out of mosquito mesh and auto sun shades, but it just wasn't roomy enough.

Maybe the tarp isn't a good option for me. I was thinking I would bring it for rain, thinking that my The One wasn't rain-worthy enough. But if I have to haul around so much extra stuff to make the tarp work, it wouldn't be worth it, unless The One is completely useless in rain.

Maybe I'll just stick to the tarp for local hikes with my BF so that we don't have to carry the 6lb tent (or spend money on a new, lighter tent.) My local region has nice and reliable weather. I don't think a bivy would ever be necessary.

I hear ya Diane, the SW has fair weather usually... but here near the Phoenix area it can still be a toss up...even tho id bet you get more than our average 8in./year
here is an example of my past few hikes:
forecast low- 52, % of rain 20
actual low 31, no rain

forecast low- 45, % of rain 30
actual low- 39, Hard rain for 3 hours

forecast low- 37, % of rain 30
actual low- 38 (and high), rain all day

forecast low- 28, % of rain 0
actual low- 37, no rain

this is the NOAA spot-on forecast using Google Map feature. As it isnt perfect, the differece between 30% chance of rain (which seems to be a consistent label) and 3 hour pounding like I havent seen for a few years is major. 8oz insurance is worth it, to me.

Edited by mikeinfhaz on 01/24/2009 18:13:37 MST.

So then, since my The One is so dang light, what's the point of bringing so many parts to equal its function, but at a greater weight?

Since I would bring my Gossamer Gear The One tent instead of a tarp by default, does anyone have experience with it in the rain? I have only used it in very light rain. It worked splendidly. I worry about hard rain. Anybody used it in hard rain?

*So then, since my The One is so dang light, what's the point of bringing so many parts to equal its function, but at a greater weight?

No doubt The One gives some heavier tarp/bivy combos a run for their money on weight, and for many folks the margin of weight savings at this level is not meaningful within their style of hiking. There is rarely one single standard through which to evaluate gear, whether it be weight, weather resistance, durability, etc. Every gear has its pros and cons, and the fun is in finding the selection that best suits your own style. I have not found the tarp/bivy combo to be at all complex to employ, and I value its flexibility for all the reasons outlined above- flexibility that The One lacks, though it weighs about the same. I leave this system behind when hiking with girlfriend and dog, because my needs change: dog likes enclosed space to sleep in, people like a little shared, sheltered space without being separated by bivies, and a little room is nice when dog likes to hog the tent! For this I purchased the SMD Lunar Duo, and look forward to giving it a go next chance I get. This tent meets certain needs that are important for me, but also comes with other limitations (if only there was any piece of gear without limitations!). Obviously, a shelter called "The One" would make for an unpleasant night with dog, girlfriend, and me, and I know who would be kicked out first...not the dog!

*Since I would bring my Gossamer Gear The One tent instead of a tarp by default, does anyone have experience with it in the rain? I have only used it in very light rain. It worked splendidly. I worry about hard rain. Anybody used it in hard rain?

No experience here, but it sounds like The One and a tarp do not accomplish the same functions for your purposes, unless you can sleep two comfortably in it (which is, as I interpreted your earlier post, the reason you were considering the tarp rather than The One).

Best,
Jamie

Edited by dubendorf on 01/24/2009 20:31:23 MST.

"So then, since my The One is so dang light, what's the point of bringing so many parts to equal its function, but at a greater weight?"

Diane,
If you are referring to tarp plus bivy I find that this combo will exceed most of the functions of a small single wall tent like "the one" except for maybe bug protection and privacy. Things to consider...tarp+bivy=warmer then tent, tarp+bivy = better in rain, tarp+bivy = faster to set up, tarp+bivy = less condensation, and yes tarp+bivy = lighter. My integral designs silnylon tarp weighs 6.8 oz + my MLD superlight bivy 6.2 oz add 24' of spectraline and 8 tent stakes (2.9 oz) = 15.9 oz (and other tarp setups come lighter). The one with tent stakes, seam sealed, and recommended ground sheet will probably come close to 20 oz and you have to hike with poles to set it up.

All that being said I still think the one is an amazing tent and will serve many folks well. I've spent many more nights out in a tent then I have a tarp, but since switching to a tarp full time I really like it better.

Jamie

Edited by jshortt on 01/24/2009 20:39:43 MST.

Hi Diane,

I wonder if our paths crossed last summer?

I used the One on the PCT last summer and found it be ideal for much of that trail. It is quite light and when there are mosquitoes about it makes a nice sized bug-free bubble to relax in. Its supplied stuff sack is also sized to make it a comfortable pillow when cowboy camping. As far as rain, it does well for the occasional odd day of rain or snow as it can be dried quickly during the next day's break.

However, I found that the One is not quite as comfortable when dealing with consecutive days of rain. If one does not get the opportunity to dry the tent the following day, then when it's packed up the water on the outside surfaces tends to wick its way into the inside of the tent. Then on the following (rainy) night, the additional moisture inside the tent combined with high humidity outside the tent and limited ventilation seems to create a fair bit of condensation on the interior walls which then gets knocked off when gusts of wind hit the walls.

Of course this is probably a limitation of single-wall tents in general, and the One seemed to suffer no worse than my friends TT Rainbow during the same conditions. For Washington, I switched to using a separate ground cloth and an 8' x 10' tarp made of 3 mil plastic. My friend's technique was to continue to use the TT Rainbow and on bad night's take a Nyquil to sleep through it.

To answer your question: the One can easily handle a night's hard rain. However, quality of life will degrade with each consecutive day of even moderate rain.

Hope that helps!

Maybe we did cross paths. I only met one other person with The One, that I know of. I think his trailname was Rizzo. Mine was Piper. Who were you?

Did you have a bivy with your tarp?

What I'm thinking is that I could take my tent most of the time, but trade for the bivy when I approached Oregon/Washington where the heavier rain is.

I plan to bring my new bug net bivy everywhere all the time so I can always sleep without the tent or tarp if I want with no fear of bugs.

I did not complete the PCT. I hurt my feet. I sat home August and September reading trail journals. One person said that people were unhappy in the rain with their lightweight tents. I've heard a couple of times now that the problem was the tent getting wet inside after multiple days of rain and stuffing it in the pack.

My plan is to complete the PCT this year with something that won't disappoint me in the rain. If it turns out to be too much hassle, my tarp would at least serve as a decent 2-person tent for local hikes w/ my BF, replacing our 6lb 2-person tent.

(I did the PCT alone and will do it again alone. I'm the only one in the family willing to throw away my future for the trail.)

Diane,

Sounds like a perfect time to experiment with some different options before finishing up the PCT. For example, it seems that you could cover all the functionality of The One and the bug bivy, both of which you are considering carrying on the first portion, for much less weight and fewer moving parts with a tarp/bivy combo. If you feel comfortable with a bivy/tarp setup in variable conditions, then you could do away with The One and the bug bivy on your trip entirely. However, if you really like how the bug bivy feels on those clear nights, it could be worth it to you to carry the extra weight. You could even consider carrying the bug bivy and the tarp at the dryer stage, and then swapping the bug bivy with a full bivy, for example an MLD soul bivy, later in the trip to add a little more storm protection. Since a tarp does not enclose you in the same way The One does, you may find that even when the tarp is wet for multiple days and soaked on all surfaces, it is much less of an inconvenience because meanwhile you have hopefully been able to keep your bivy largely dry the whole time. And since tarps can be pitched high in rain when wind is not an issue, there is much more practical living space and less chance to rub up against wet surfaces.

Ultimately, of course, you will be the one in the rainstorm! The more you experiment with all these different options in front of you, the better a decision you can make about the kind of hike you want to hike. As for trips with a significant other in moderate weather conditions, the SMD Lunar Duo is definitely worth a good luck, and is reviewed on this site.

Jamie

Hi Diane,

Hmmm... the other person I knew who had a One was a guy named Icebag. I'm not really a trail name person myself, so I went by "Nick" most of the time. Some of the trail names people tried out on me were: "VE-Nick" and "Cool Hand Luke."

I'll PM you with more details.


edit: To answer your question; I did not have a bivy with my tarp. Like you I had heard that the 8' x 10' dimensions would provide storm coverage such that a bivy wasn't necessary. I found that to be true for myself. I was also betting that mosquitoes would not be a large problem that late into the season. I did have a silk bag liner for my quilt which kept the ants out mostly and a bug headnet to sleep with if the mosquitoes were bad. They weren't that bad and soon they were gone. I used a piece of tyvek as a ground sheet.

Of course, the main reason I didn't have a bivy was that at the time, I didn't want to spend any more money on something I was going to use just for Washington.

Edited by nixie on 01/24/2009 22:42:12 MST.

I knew Icebag. I never saw his tent, though. He always slept outside.

I'm a little confused by this thread. Some people are explaining how use of a single wall shelter creates uncomfortable living spaces in prolonged rain with misting and general wetting of one's living space. But I see others explaining that the solution is a larger tarp with no bivy. But isn't a Tarpent basically a shaped tarp with built-in-floor? I don't see how a larger tarp would mitigate the problem.

Are you suggesting that the larger tarp provides the necessary ventilation for prolonged rain, or that having a floorless shelter keeps things drier because you don't have a wet floor to contend with?

I guess for me I see a bivy as a pretty necessary for prolonged rain in any single wall shelter, whether tarp or tarptent. I think of it as creating an UL double wall tent in that it creates an extra barrier between the tent walls and insulating clothing. But I don't have the experience to back this up.

I also don't understand how so many people can use a bivy as their bug shelter. Sure, if you only need protection at night, but what about warm afternoon buggy rest stops? Or what about areas that go between being rainy and buggy over the course of a single hiking section?

Seems to me the maximum-comfort route would be a very light tarptent combined with a very light bivy for OR/WA. Or, for more versatility, a tarp, removeable bug shelter (used alone on starry nights), and UL bivy and mail ahead whichever shelter item you don't think you'll need for that segment.

I still think there's a potential market for a combination bug nest/bivy combo (the 'Bivy Nest' anyone?). Sew BOTH a bivy top AND a bug nest into a single floor, and you'd have a bivy that lets you lay on top of while still being sheltered from bugs. One could start the evening like this, and as it gets windy or rainy, one could slip under the bivy top.

Edited by jcarter1 on 01/25/2009 01:49:03 MST.

John,

I like a bivy/tarp combo, and would not personally feel comfortable facing the possibility of weather with a tarp alone, especially if camping above treeline (this isn't to say that a tarp alone could not work perfectly well in many situations). One could try to compensate for the lack of a bivy by using a larger tarp, but larger tarps have their own issues, including weight, space required for setting up, and more surface area to catch wind (see Ryan Jordan's great article about tarp camping in inclement conditions). Bivy allows for a smaller tarp and greatly expands the functionality of the entire sleep system for very little weight and great simplicity of use.

One potential advantage of tarps over single wall tents is variation in pitch style and also height, which can come in handy if you are in conditions where you can take advantage of a pitch higher off the ground. This can leave more actual living space in prolonged wet conditions, less chance of rubbing against wet fabric, etc. I have little experience with single wall tents or tarptents, but it would seem that if either of these shelters also required a bivy sack, then why not just use a tarp?

When it comes to bug protection on the trail, I simply employ solutions that don't use a bivy, so for me that would be a different thread! Some use head-nets while sleeping and hiking, but I've not hiked in areas where I felt this was needed.

There are any number of under-tarp options employing bug netting, nests, and such, but for me the simplicity, functionality, and extremely light weight of a bivy is part of its appeal. To me, adding bells and whistles would detract from its appeal, so I wouldn't be in the market for a swiss army heinz 57 bivy. And I am rarely in hot, humid conditions where bivies start to become uninhabitable and bug nets come into their own.

All shelters have their advantages and disadvantages, and there are plenty of perfectly valid reasons for not using a tarp/bivy combo- hence the great diversity of options available to us all. For me, there are many situations where a simply pairing of bivy and tarp is just what I need to enjoy my time in the wilderness.

Not having used my tarp in the rain (I haven't actually used my tarp at all yet), here's how I imagine the scenario.

TENT:
I'm hiking and it's raining. I get to a place to camp and set down my pack. I pull out my tent. Everything is getting rained on as I set it up. Now I have to figure out how to get inside with my wet clothing and wet gear without getting the inside puddled with water. Impossible.

TARP:
I'm hiking and it's raining. I get to a place to camp and set down my pack. I pull out my 8x10 foot tarp. I toss my pack under it and proceed to set it up. Then I get under it. I roll out my polycro (hey, maybe I even have two, one for my wet stuff and one for my dry stuff) and set up my dry sleeping bag. I take off my wet clothes and put them in a pile near my wet gear. Maybe I put on some dry, lightweight long underwear. Then I get inside my sleeping bag. Ahhh.

Ok, maybe the tarp wouldn't be quite so tidy, but I can see that with the space underneath I at least stand a chance of keeping some of the wet stuff away from some of the dry stuff.

I agree that I can't picture using a bivy for bugs. I slept one night near a guy who did that. The image of claustrophobia he provided sent shivers down my spine.

"I agree that I can't picture using a bivy for bugs. I slept one night near a guy who did that. The image of claustrophobia he provided sent shivers down my spine."

How do you use a sleeping bag then?

Comments like this are made from someone who has never used a bivy and truly understood the benefits of using one:

-minimize heat loss from convection.
-minimize water penetration from blowing rain.
-add about 5 degrees of real warmth.
-ability to occupy very little real estate.
-act as a secondary barrier to shelter failure.

Many bivies are just like sleeping in a sleeping bag - the good ones have enough of a brim or wire to keep any bug netting off. In any event, there are a wide range of different types of bivies so generalizations cannot be made - see MLD or Integral Designs as examples.

I appreciate the helpful comments coming, but let me be clear about my previous post: I understand the benefits of a floorless shelter in the rain. I've used my GoLite Hex 3 with a bivy in the rain and appreciate the ability to just crawl in all wet, stow my raingear in a corner, and then prepare my polycro dry zone. That said, I think you can achieve a similar separation of spaces with the tarptents that have good awnings, and benefit from a bug-free zone.

But my question isn't about the merits of tarp vs tents in general; rather, why would a tarptent become miserable after a few days of rain, but that a tarp would not, if the problem has to do with the fabric saturating and then misting from blowing rainy wind. I just want to clarify if the issue is the misting with the fabric, or the fact that the floor also gets wet, making the living space a little less comfortable. It just seems to me that in these conditions the only relatively comfortable options are 1) a double wall tent, 2) a tarptent/tarp with bivy, or 3) bring a synthetic bag and no bivy like Ray Jardine and Ryan Jordan.

As to the bivy, my question relates to breathability in warm, buggy weather more than claustrophobia. I've relied on permethrin and long sleeve shirt/pants in the past, but I've been in mosquito swarms here in Oregron bad enough that some kind of enclosed shelter is necessary, and a bivy when it's 80 degrees outside doesn't sound very comfortable to me. In fast and light trips, I can just hike all day and camp high to solve this. But on a thru-hike, I imagine one doesn't always have this flexibility.

I suppose I already know the answer to the bivy question; going UL involves compromises in comfort, so in buggy conditions one must either plan on hiking all day (no long stops), or simply deal with being uncomfortably warm in the afternoon under a rain suit/windshirt or in a bivy. I can respect that.

Edited by jcarter1 on 01/25/2009 11:19:59 MST.

It is true, there is so much variation in shelters and bivy sacks that generalizations always only serve a limited value. My sense is that some might find small shelters, like The One, challenging to inhabit in multi-day rain events because of the relatively small space and the possibility of saturating tent the tent body mentioned above- surrounded on close sides by wet fabric. I don't have experience with this shelter, only heard wonderful things about it, so I'll defer to people who have. It sounds like the hex 3 can be pitched in ways which confer a similar advantage as a tarp.

"Misting" is not something I have experienced, and I understand from other threads on BPL that some controversy exists about the phenomenon- water from outside coming in, condensation from inside being shaken off, etc. From the post above, it sounded like the issue was the tent fabric eventually become somewhat saturated through multiple pitching and stuffing events. I'm assuming that seams were not the issue, though seam sealing is usually an essential measure with single wall tents, as most are aware.

As for the question of relying on a bivy in warm, muggy weather for bug protection at night, I can certainly imagine there is an upper limit of comfort for a bivy in these circumstances which probably varies greatly by the individual and by climate- and this is where, as I understand it, bug nests, nets, etc. come into their own. I am usually in areas where, even in summer, nights cool down, so I can't speak with much experience there.

Prolonged, intense, multi-day heavy rain would probably test the limits of any shelter system in some way, and I've benefited from the many BPL articles that essentially advocate accepting rather than resisting at all costs being wet while hiking. Since I don't own synthetic bags, and am interested in extending the functionality of down as far as possible, I might consider bringing a vb liner with my setup if I anticipated intese, multi-day rain without opportunities for drying out the bag. That way, at a minimum, I had a method at my disposal to dry out the bag- and yes, many would find this a good reason to consider other shelters, and they are certainly right. There are some good recent threads on BPL about hiking in (I believe) the Scottish Highlands, with some interesting arguments for and against UL gear in these conditions, particularly tarp/bivy. Where I spend most of my time, multi-day intense rain is rare, but then again I would never want to not consider hiking in an area simply because of my shelter system, so I'm always eager to learn about this stuff. Although this might create another thread, it would be nice to hear from people who have experienced prolonged rain events and came away with some insight into the merits or limitations of different shelter options!

Hi Diane

> here's how I imagine the scenario.
Yes, well, imagination is a wonderful thing, but a reality check is useful.

> TENT:
> I'm hiking and it's raining. I get to a place to camp and set down my pack. I pull
> out my tent. Everything is getting rained on as I set it up. Now I have to figure out
> how to get inside with my wet clothing and wet gear without getting the inside
> puddled with water. Impossible.
Fortunately, this is imagination. Reality is very different - at least with a good tent. A GOOD tent has a vestibule which is clear of the groundsheet so you can get under cover, strip off, wipe down the groundsheet (if wet from the previous night) and get onto it. We do this all the time.

Granted, there are many crap tent designs which are really only suitable for fine, dry, calm weather. Well, other BPL members can help you distinguish between good and bad tents. And when the wind and rain are howling around you just might find that a tent (or a good tarp-tent) has some superior qualities - like shelter and comfort.

Cheers

Diane,

With some practice, I think this is a realistic method for setting up a tarp in the rain. Speaking from my own embarassed fumbling, I can say that a little practice setting up the tarp goes a long way- after said fumbling, I found an open grass field on a nice sunny day and got to know my tarp. I also store all my insulating down in double-lined sacs for some extra protection, which allows me to open my pack in rain without worrying about directly wetting my SB- though I guess this precaution comes in handy regardless of what shelter you have!

While I think the practical benefits of a bivy have been pretty well covered, only you can determine your comfort level in a bivy in different conditions. Before you do so, I wouldn't write off using a bivy as bug protection, particularly if the alternative is to carry more weight. Bivies really can be quite comfortable, and as noted above, well-made bivies will have loops to increase internal space, lift mesh off face, etc. However, some just don't like how bivies feel. I have found that when I do close the bug net on my bivy, it is only for the early night hours. Eventually they calm down as it cools and I open everything up.

This has been an interesting thread, and shows how broad the range of user experience and preference are!

As Roger said, a properly designed tent will have a protected entrance (or two!) to allow you to remove wet clothing without saturating the inside of your tent. It is for this reason that you will find I always add a rainporch to any tarptent I use (I haven't yet developed Roger's knack with MYOG tents). Lack of decent vestibule is a design weakness of most tarptents. Of course, this adds weight, but it comes down to comfort when you are looking at many days of rain in a row.

I am another one of those people who can't fathom using a bivy bag for insect protection. They are bad enough when you have to bunker down in them to escape the rain. If it's not raining I would be absolutely miserable. Hot and claustrophic for me.

There are also many times when I would have been miserable without a bathtub floor. Depends on your climate and terrain as much as personal preference.

So I can't imagine taking a tarp without a bivy bag, or a bivy bag without a tarp, or either of the above without a good large insect free area.

I agree, some good thoughts all around, and much food for thought. A great lesson in thinking about shelter options in relation to various criteria- number of hikers, hiking styles, climate conditions, considerations of comfort, margins of safety, MYOG talent, etc.

Now if only I can figure out how to take advantage of a boiling bugless bivy for cooking purposes- "Bivy Stew"?

Diane:
One other thing re: using a tarp with a bivy is that you can reduce the size of your tarp. This will save you quite a bit of weight, while continuing to offer protection from rain because of the use of the bivy preventing your bag from getting wet via rain splash or misting. You can also get a bivy that has a top that is a combination of both WP/B and bug netting. With this type of bivy and a smaller tarp, such as a 5x7, for example, will greatly reduce your overall shelter weight.
Jim

I like to wake up and see what is around me, which is something I don't get from tents, tarptents, and many other shelters.

Some people will argure that a well placed and pitched tarp will protect you from the elements, and you don't need a bivy. Don't many of the sleeping bags have water resistance shell materials? Many long distance hikers use small (~8x5) tarps without a bivy (e.g., Flyin Brian, Francis Tapon, Jardine, etc.).

Also, as someone else mentioned, a tarp is great with dogs.

The single wall shelters seem great too, but there are some advantages of each.

Hi John,

I'll try to answer your question as best I can. First of all, I found the One to be a fine shelter over all and am quite pleased with it.

To my way of thinking, the chief advantage of using a tarp and separate ground sheet was that due to a combination of less moisture build-up and greater ventilation, there seemed to be less loft degradation in my down sleeping bag than when using a tarp-tent, in rainy conditions.

To elaborate:

Under the cover of the tarp, I found it possible to pack and fold the ground cloth in such a way that the dry side stays (mostly) dry.

Then the ground cloth can be unfolded the next rainy night again under the cover of the tarp, with the dry side mostly maintained. (Any residual moisture can be handled with a bandanna and depending on conditions, under the tarp, body heat and soil drainage seem to work together to dry out the groundsheet to a limited extent the following morning.) Wet gear goes off to the side and does not impede ventilation.

The tarp is stored separately from the tarp. The tarp is also folded or rolled to protect the dry underside as much as possible, then packed into a different pocket than the ground sheet. The moisture on the tarp does not make its way to the groundsheet. Any moisture that did makes its way to the underside of the tarp did not seem to be a problem when the tarp was pitched.

I mostly pitched the tarp as an A-frame and there was considerably more ventilation beneath the tarp than inside the tarp-tent and considerably less condensation.

In contrast:

This contrasts to packing the One which has an integrated floor. I haven't found a good way to fold, roll, or store the wet tent such that the wet fly doesn't come into contact with the previously dry floor during storage. Water on the wet outer fly then seems to wick its way inwards to cover the inside walls and floor of the tent while it is packed away during the day.

Then, when set up the next night, I would enter a tent now damp/wet on the inside (floor and walls) from the moisture that had wicked its way into the tent. This combined with the moisture from my wet raingear and shoes that were placed in the vestibule (with the ventilation perhaps further decreased by the wet gear partly blocking the vestibule) and the reduced ventilation that the tarp-tent naturally has (in comparison to the tarp) seemed to cause greater condensation on the interior tent walls. Enough condensation formed to drip down naturally or be knocked off by wind and required me to wring out my bandanna a couple of times whenever I attempted to mop off the tent walls (whereupon water would soon again re-condense). The seams were sealed.

Caveat:

This is an awfully long post on a subject which is blissfully rare along the PCT. I think the One is a great shelter for the conditions encountered by most hikers along the PCT during the typical thru-hiking season.


John: As another suggestion for a shelter system which might be comfortable to live in during extended periods of rainy weather - and I suggest this from a purely theoretical basis - what about a tipi or pyramid used in conjunction along with a packable stove (e.g. one made by Ti Goat or Kifaru)? Particularly for the CDT and the weight split among the group's members?

Diane: What an interesting thread you've started!

(note: I have no interest in hiking the CDT.)

I agree with Thomas, it is nice to see what's around you. Me, I'm a noseybody. When I wake up to something in the middle of the night, I want to know what it is, which is very hard to do in a castle of nylon.

Also, it SUCKS when you wake up the whole camp with the noisy zipper of a tent.

The tarp is WAY more airy and comfortable. You can sit up in it and take your shoes off, cook under it, which is impossible with a tent without a good vestibule.

If you were expecting some foul weather, a tarp-bivy combo is the lightest way to go.

-Evan

Edited by edude on 01/25/2009 19:29:27 MST.

>If you were expecting some foul weather, a tarp-bivy combo is the lightest way to go.

If you are going solo (and don't have to deal with biting midges)!

As for view and cooking, that's what a good rain porch is for ;)

I'm glad people are finding helpful info in my topic.

By the way, the clautrophobic image was of a man with the bug netting of his bivy stretched over his nose. I would prefer the bug net part of any bivy to be somehow lifted well over my face so as to not make me feel like a sausage.

Anyway, back the the philosophy of my question. One thing I liked about my GG tent was how spacious inside it was. I get inside and I'm safe. The color of the fabric isn't gloomy. It's a great tent.

But, I can't see the trees through the fabric. Now I've got the A16 bug bivy. Now I'll have a choice that won't be made by the bugs. And with the tarp, I have another choice for rain. Maybe someday I'll get to test it. I plan to go on a trip in February and I'm bringing the tarp and The One. It won't rain, but we'll probably stay in dewy places, so it'll be a good test of the tarp with out a bivy for now.

Anyway, something about zipping myself into a plastic-coated bag under a tarp doesn't quite appeal to me as much as the roominess of my tent or the minimalism of the bug bivy. I guess I just have to try a bivy to know whether or not it feels like too many layers of plastic between me and the air. Maybe I will have to get one. I wish I had a job!

Nicholas,

Thank you for clarifying; I can see how a tarptent could become damper now. Don't underestimate OR and WA's ability to create continuous days of rain, especially around the time thru-hikers arrive! Central Oregon is one of these places where you will want your full shelter kit, since you can be rained on for days or eaten alive by giant mosquitos (or both!).

Those pyramid tent stoves sure do look tempting, don't they! If only I could rig a Bushbuddy with a chimney...

Diane,

I thought I would cross-post a discussion about Mountain Laurel Designs. Ron Bell has announced he will be coming out with more bug nests for some of his shelters, in particular the DuoMid. This should be big enough to feel tarp-like, but will also be very storm worthy. It won't match the weight of The One, though it should still be quite light and much more roomy. Combine this with a synthetic bag and you'll never need a bivy.

Lastly, in response to your first post re: why bring a tarp if it won't rain: have you considered the Gatewood Cape? I was too big for the Serenity NetTent, but I really liked that the tarp also served as my raingear. It provided the justification for bringing a tarp, so that I only needed one piece of lightweight gear in the unlikely event of precipitation (during those types of hikes).

Edited by jcarter1 on 01/26/2009 00:52:22 MST.

>I really liked that the tarp also served as my raingear.

Getting slightly off-topic here, but how do you set up your your GateWood cape in the rain without getting wet?? I just had to ask as it's always puzzled me!

Allison,

That's why I switched to a Rainbow after reading your reviews! =) BPL published an article on this a few years ago that basically amounted to "you have to get good at setting up your shelter really, really fast, and use a windshirt that is more water resistant but less breathable."

Actually, my solution was to bring a DriDucks jacket instead of a windshirt. I figured the 6oz weight wasn't much more than a windshirt and trashbag (for setting up the cape in), and the fact that the fabric is not very durable didn't matter since the Gatewood served as primary raingear.

But I was referring specifically to trips like Diane was describing, where there is a good high pressure system in place and zero percent change of rain (I remember those back when I lived in Southern California). On trips like that, when one might be tempted to leave one's raingear and tarp out of the pack at the trailhead, the Gatewood was the perfect backup insurance. I also liked knowing that setting up the Gatewood would keep me warmer at night if I needed the extra warmth, thereby serving triple duty.

But it's all relative of course; for me the Gatewood was my no-chance-of-rain summer backup, but for many here the Gatewood is their foul-weather choice instead of their cuben tarps.

Edited by jcarter1 on 01/26/2009 12:40:29 MST.

Thanks for the info John. Nice thread.

8oz is darn cheap insurance.
While hiking in the Olympics, even a perfectly clear day, and night, brought rain from condensation forming on the tree's leaves for most of the night.

Since I was sleeping in a down bag, I was glad I pitched!

Edited by johnatha1 on 02/02/2009 16:47:27 MST.

A lot of people have expressed doubts about using a bivy in buggy and or hot conditions. I am wondering what kind of bivy they are referring to?
It sounds like bugs and heat would be a problem IF you were using a waterproof bivy without bug netting which is usually not only not-ultra light but complete overkill. Most people are using water resistant highly breathable bivys. If its hot -a single layer of momentum may be all you need to sleep through the night (meaning no bag). I like bivys with a net top, this gives you total protection from bugs and a lot of ventilation when needed. And why would you feel claustrophobic by adding a thin layer around your sleeping bag? I feel snug and warm in my bivys knowing I have an extra layer to combat rain, wind,and bugs not to mention the added warmth and Im a pretty claustrophobic person-but dont feel that way in a bivy. Plus with a bivy if the weather is good that night you can just throw it on the ground and shove your bag inside -and WHA-LA your done making camp. If it starts raining grab your tarp and set it up -no problem.
Its plenty hot and muggy in a New England summer and we have a lot o' mosquitoes- thats bivy time!

So I purchased a bivy with a breathable, water-resistant top and waterproof bottom, no bug netting. I have an A16 bug net bivy. I like having one of those so I can take a nap in the afternoon.

Once someone mentioned that a bivy can add warmth when it's cold I was sold. Something to help keep the microbreezes out of my quilt. Yay! And I remember some hot nights in July in Nor Cal on the PCT when my sleeping bag was mostly next to me. Those would be the same nights I would sleep in only a sheet at home. So I can see the value of a bivy now.

Can't wait to try out the system.