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Whats the weight/cost of convienince?
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Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: weight/cost on 12/21/2008 21:24:57 MST Print View

Roger:

That is actually true. But news flash -- China makes both el cheapo Wal Mart gear (aka junk) and upper-middle range apparels, tents, packs, and bags for TNF, Sierra Designs, Gregory, Mountain Hardwear and many others!

The thing that makes China unique (and daunting in some ways) is that it runs the whole gamut from no-tech sweat shops all the way to nuclear power and space exploration. I can't think of any other country that can compete well simultaneously against Bangladesh in textiles and Americans/Europeans in satellite launching. They are big (or getting big) in almost everything...

Edited by ben2world on 12/21/2008 21:31:34 MST.

Denis Hazlewood
(redleader) - MLife

Locale: Luxury-Light Luke on the Llano Azul
Re: Whats the weight/cost of convienince? on 12/21/2008 22:38:24 MST Print View

Sean,
I don't think anyone answered your question. I would highly recomend the Evolution 2P. I think Ben2 will agree. We love ours.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Whats the weight/cost of convienince? on 12/21/2008 22:51:11 MST Print View

Denis:

Just my own stance here but maybe you can see my point as well: until folks actually start reporting back that they are buying and receiving their BS tents without problems -- I think it would be irresponsible for me to bring up BS products -- esp. to newbies.

I have no axe to grind against BS -- but nobody here should condone/tolerate unethical business practices and outright dishonesty. Delivery problems aside, just the fact that BS actually advertised an "Earthquake Sale" after the horrible tragedy in China earlier this year was mind boggling!

Edited by ben2world on 12/21/2008 23:09:18 MST.

Denis Hazlewood
(redleader) - MLife

Locale: Luxury-Light Luke on the Llano Azul
Re: Re: Whats the weight/cost of convienince? on 12/21/2008 23:07:04 MST Print View

Ben,
I know how you feel. I'm on the road and using my Blackberry or I'd have the contact info from a fellow from another thread, who works in an outfitters in Anarbor MI. I believe he has an E2 in stock. I should be home tomorrow and will post a link.

Sean Walashek
(caraz) - F

Locale: bay area
paradigm shift people! on 12/21/2008 23:45:01 MST Print View

When we get outdoors money goes out with it. I wasn't trying to try and find the actual $ cost of these things per ounce I was trying to determine the value of them based on their cost in terms of weight. If there was a weight cost that was attached to everything based on how much it could deliver in terms of outdoor value/time it I think we would begin to see items for what they were and where best to spend weight.
For example some items do not have much value without other essential items. Like a video camera to blog about your trip won't have much value unless you have enough food to complete the trip. So the value of essentials is exponentially greater in terms of this weight cost. That is why the essentials can be given an appropriate range in terms of weight, (2 for each of the big three) and if a piece achieves the same (or acceptable) results for less weight it would have more value and the opposite for the inverse. So far money hasn't been introduced to this system the value is purely the weight of the object in relation to how well it allows you to appreciate your time outdoors)
Bringing money into the discussion I speak from my experience and that of all the posts I've seen of people and their agonizing decisions over what item to get and the general steps from trad to ul gear. If you get the right piece the first time you spend less money (no matter how much you spend) in the long run. For example what is a fair weight for hiking poles? Obviously they get a higher score if incorporated in a shelter system. 12 oz for the pair? If there was a maximum weight listing it would be easier for a novice to make better decisions. Franco how many shelters/bags/packs in all the years did it take you before you found out the lightest gear that kept you safe? I will try and further flush out this idea outside the forums and reintroduce it with a more lucid description.

Mike W
(skopeo) - F

Locale: British Columbia
Convenience? on 12/22/2008 02:59:52 MST Print View

I think you will have a hard time nailing down a formula for the simple fact that some of us just like trying new gear.

When my kids were young and I was buying three sets of everything, cost/convenience/weight was a factor. Now I enjoy having the luxury of buying what I like whether I need it or not. I don't care if something isn't going to last for 10 years because I'll probably try something new long before that anyway. I don't need another tent but my Lunar Solo is in the mail.

This is part of the enjoyment for me and has no real bearing on my enjoyment of the outdoors. Since I only buy quality gear, I'm not likely to have a serious problem with it. My pack contents may be constantly changing but the weight and comfort will generally stay about the same.

The real difference in pack weight and comfort is realized by my kids who are quick to grab my cast-offs... now that's a really cost effective way to lighten up.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: weight/cost on 12/22/2008 11:04:05 MST Print View

>Lightweight camping is LESS expensive than traditional camping! This is a truism!

Not in my experience. This may be true if you only go out a few times per year (in which case you probably wouldn't have the experience to pull off UL), but if you hike a lot, the cost of replacing lighter gear (which almost always wears out faster than heaveir equivalents) is significant. I have found this true of nearly everything but good down sleeping bags (which are definitely more expensive than inferior down or synthetic bags).

M G
(drown) - F - MLife

Locale: Shenandoah
Re: Re: weight/cost on 12/22/2008 11:36:01 MST Print View

Titanium is always more expensive than aluminium.

Daniel Fosse
(magillagorilla) - F

Locale: Southwest Ohio
Placing "Value" on Gear on 12/22/2008 13:42:58 MST Print View

I am still trying to get a 10lb base weight. I’m at 11-15lbs depending on weather. I have struggled with gear, I often end up buying traditional gear that is “light” then end up frustrated because I spent a lot of money and I didn’t realize there was a cheaper UL alternative. For example, I got this really nice Osprey Aether 70 that weighs 4lb 9oz a year ago. Ya it’s really comfortable but it was over 200 bucks. I just got a Golite Pinnacle for $85 after reading UL sites. To think I could have directed that money towards a down bag frustrates the hell out of me. I have an embarrassing amount of brand new gear that I will never use. I also really have no business spending a lot of money on these things (3 kids, mortgage, car payment…….. you get what I mean).

I also call the 3 heavys the 3 expensives. I am all UL except my sleeping bag. This site has been an invaluable resource for me. I appreciate people who come up with clever stuff like, use a 1 liter disposable water bottle instead of a Nalgaene, it’s nearly free and super light (That is just an easy example, there are dozens of others).

The 3 expensives can be gotten around if you have a lot of time for MYOG, I don’t.

I like the idea of this scale of importance weight –vs- need – vs- value. I actually do this to an extent on my gear spreadsheet. I use a 1-4 scale. This is all completely relative to me and what I need:

1 – essentials (Sleep, Shelter, Pack, Water treatment, food….)
2 – secondary essentials (“I won’t die without”…… Stove, Toiletries, secondary water container, some meds like Tylenol, deet….)
3 – nice to haves (extra stuff sacks, knife, potty trowel, salt and pepper…..)
4 – excess comfort items (bottle of spirits, MP3 player, bag of cheese poofs….)

Everything on my lest gets a 1-4. So when I pack I know the 1’s have to go, and most likely the 2’s. Then I can start adding 3’s and 4’s. If my pack is heavier than I want it, I start shaving off 3’s and 4’s.

This all probably seems to elaborate for the experienced UL packers but I am a noobie to UL and it helps me quite a bit. I sort out the importance of the item well before I am actually packing so that if a get clouded judgment while packing I can refer to the list.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Whats the weight/cost of convienince? on 12/22/2008 17:15:49 MST Print View

Sean
"Franco how many shelters/bags/packs in all the years did it take you before you found out the lightest gear that kept you safe?"

Fair question...
Apart from what I have purchased , having worked for 30 years within meters of most of the best outdoor shops in Melbourne I have had the opportunity to try in the shops and borrow several bits of gear ( I reciprocated by offering good deals and maybe good advice on camera gear)
At the moment I am down to nine shelters but only use the Contrail.
Before I started to "play" with it and work out how to use it to it's full potential it did not look the shelter of choice for me but now that I know what it can do , that is the one I use.
I was rather happy a few years ago with the Osprey Aether 60 (much lighter and more comfortable than my previous packs) when I ordered the ULA Circuit just to see how it performed. That is the one I often use now , as well as the Amp and one of my Aarn's.
I do know how to use a digital SLR, for example, but still use my very so-so Pentax Optio because I could not be bothered taking a heavier camera. A point system would not help me because I cannot think of what I could leave out of the pack to compensate.
We do take notice of other's opinions but having eliminated personal dislikes (for example hammocks and tarps for me) all I know is what "could" work for me not what will .
BTW, over the years I have seen customers coming in to buy a camera armed with huge charts filled with all sorts of data. After having ticked all the appropriate boxes they usually end up with the one that has the "right" features but not necessarily the one that they will enjoy using. They are the ones that come back to buy a lens that happens to fit the "wrong" camera but not theirs...
Basically what I am saying is that a point system would not work for me,personal experience does (trial and error) but yes it could work for some.
Franco
Short version
(IMHO)
Newbies : a chart will not tell you what you will like/tolerate and what you won't
Experienced : you know the weight of your walking poles but you also know why you use them.

Edited by Franco on 12/22/2008 18:25:59 MST.