I thought I'd read about a bunch of new ultralight tents coming out by the big guns next season, so I was wondering if anyone had links to information about new tents in 2009.

Edited by shanebeers on 12/15/2008 16:37:34 MST.

Shane,

I'm not sure what you mean by the "big guns" but two of my favorites are Henry Shire's Tarptent line and Ron Moak's SixMoonDesigns tents. They may even be considered "big guns" in the ultralight tent category.

http://www.tarptent.com/index.html

http://www.sixmoondesigns.com/

Happy Trails,

-Mark

Shane,
IMO, any of the "lightweight tents" from the big guns are too heavy :). There are lighter options. If you are looking for something in particular, post some info and perhaps someone can recommend something.

Edit:
"Lighter options" being what Mark linked to above.

Edited by Steve_Evans on 12/15/2008 10:47:21 MST.

I'm rolling my eyes here, guys. I am asking about new lines from Big Agnes (Seedhouse SL1 replacement), MSR, etc, all of which are supposed to be lighter and better. It's kind of pointless to tell me to check out tarps when I'm asking about tent shelters. I've read a lot about tarps and my severe issues with bugs (and other things) make them uninteresting to me at the moment.

I'll check out the Sixmoon website, though.

Right now I am just asking about upcoming lines in 2009.

Edited by shanebeers on 12/15/2008 10:51:50 MST.

Shane apparently you aren't familiar with Henry Shire's Tarptent line, or Ron Mauk's Six Moon Designs. These aren't tarps; they are tents which are significantly lighter than anything from the 'big guns'. Steven is right, the big boys' tents are just too heavy, they are not UL regardless of what the builders label them as.

MSR Hubba: 3 lb, 3 oz
BA SL1: 2 lb, 15 oz

Now for really light:

Tarptent Contrail: 1 lb, 8.5 oz
SMD Lunar Solo: 1 lb, 7 oz

Or how about really, REALLY LIGHT?:

Tarptent Sublite: 1 lb, 2.5 oz
Gossamer Gear the One: 1 lb, 1.1 oz

Don't know about new models from the big boys, but they aren't gonna be building anything this light. If you must have a double-wall tent, try Hilleberg or Terra Nova; they build 4 season tents with weights more like 3 season "superlight" tents from the big boys.

I see you're a member; check out the reviews on these tents to see just how well the editors like them. I will say, I gave up on tents long ago because they were too heavy. I'm now considering buying a tent for the first time in about 10 years because the weights aren't much greater now than my tarp.

Rolling your eyes? Lovely. How about this? Biting my tongue....

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/orsm08_lw_shelters.html

Edited by skinewmexico on 12/15/2008 11:33:40 MST.

Everyone on the site is now rolling their eyes..at YOU. Tarptent and SMD and Gossamer Gear make the lightest tents on the market. There's also one being sold over at prolitegear.com (though I can't recall what it is called), that is marketed as the lightest single-person tent in the world.

Shane,
My Refuge X (made by Six Moons Designs) is a two person fully enclosed shelter that weighs 15.9 ounces with the stuffsack...that's less then a pound! I weighed it, and I'm still having trouble believing it. :)

Big Agnes Fly Creek will be available in early 2009. It's a double wall, freestanding tent that's similar in configuration (sq. footage, height, width) to the Seedhouse 1 SL -- but it weighs just 1 lb. 14 oz. I believe BA managed to squeeze out weight from the Seedhouse by decreasing volume from the midsection down to the foot end (space that's not used anyway) -- and maybe lighter materials as well.

Not a bad contender at all -- considering the advantages of a double wall tent with relatively little weight penalty. With the tent name, you can google for more info. And if you are a member, you can click over to Practical Backpacking forum for tons of photos and detailed info.

Edited by ben2world on 12/15/2008 11:56:48 MST.

I guess I should mention that I'm primarily interested in a double-wall tent. I've read reviews of plenty of single-wall ultralight single-person tents and nearly all of them fail in some fashion, while succeeding at being light. My main interest in my shelter isn't cutting as much weight as possible, it's being comfortable (which means no moisture, no bugs, enough room to move a bit) while being lightweight - I don't expect ULW in a double-wall tent.

Thank you, this is exactly the kind of information I was hoping for - I wasn't trying to get into a tent argument... :(

Well tarptents certainly are not tarps in that they do have bug protection and waterproof floors, but--I want to say that they are not exactly tents either because they are going to be more prone to condensation, but in reality all tents are prone to condensation, just as all tents have design features built-in to vent off the condensation. In the case of tarptents, though, you can get wet on a humid night just by brushing the inside of the "tent" and some people might simply not like that.

Still, Shane, you probably should have known better than to ask about "tents" on this forum ;).

True, true, but I know the gearheads here would certainly be tracking everything, even if it wasn't truly ULW.

Shane,

They're just having fun. Tents are regularly discussed here. Sure, we all like UL, compact and simple; but many here also gravitate to heavy, awkward and complicated -- like caldera cones and Jetboil stove/pots.

We're gear heads, schizo at times, and we can never make up our minds -- but we enjoy it all. :)

Edited by ben2world on 12/15/2008 12:10:09 MST.

Shane,
Don't forget to check out Big Sky.

http://bigskyproducts.com/Big_Sky_Evolution_1P_shelter.aspx

I'm not on top of their newest stuff but I recall that they have a new 1P tent for 2009. There was a time where they had (some of) the lightest freestanding double wall tents - somewhat customizable aswell.

Looks like the mob has dispersed ;-)

Shane,

For light double wall shelters you should take a look at the offerings by Terra Nova.

Ben, my mind is made up.... I'll have one of everything!!!!

Shane:

Looking is free -- but don't actually buy anything from Big Sky before you do a search through this forum. Tons of complaints.

If ANYONE has made recent purchases from BS and received delivery within BS' stated timeframe -- please post your feedback so we'll all know.

Jonathan.........You don't already?

Edited by skinewmexico on 12/15/2008 13:11:33 MST.

Jonathan:

Buy one of everything -- that's one way of approaching it. And propping up our economy is a good thing.

Well Johnathan certainly has the right gear storage facility for it!!!!

I like the comment that tarptent type shelters have shortcomings. If you can identify what shelter doesn't please let me know.

That BA is going to be really, really small, at least compared to most single walled tarptents.

Nevertheless, here are two more that would probably make your list, Shane:

http://www.moontrail.com/sierra-designs-lightning-xt-1.php

and

http://www.moontrail.com/sierra-designs-vapor-light-1.php

Another to check out might be the Scarp 1 from Henry Shires. Double wall, looks like the living space is good, and lots of nice features for 4 season use. The twin entry design is great in the rain; you have one area to cook and one to store wet gear. The optional crossing poles look like they would lend lots of strength for high winds or snow load (I know the Hilleberg Akto failed under heavy snowload and I think the same might happen with the Terra Nova Hoop tents). I also like the corner struts, as they create a more open feeling along the floor. The weight is 2 lb, 12 oz; the crossing poles add 12 oz. It's much heavier than the lightest offerings, but has lots of features and versatility.

Ah yes, Sierra Designs was one of the companies I heard/read was doing even lighter tents for 2009.

Thanks for the info so far, guys.

In case you haven't seen it yet, MSR's new Carbon Reflex looks interesting.

Edited by EarthDweller on 12/15/2008 13:25:27 MST.

Jonathan-

We all saw the pics of your gear room/warehouse. Don't you already have one of everything?!

I wish I felt at all comfortable in the Hubba. It's just too snug...

"I wish I felt at all comfortable in the Hubba. It's just too snug..."

I hear ya!

Shane - are you looking for something that can take a snow load, is double walled, and is a solo tent? How much do you want to spend?

No, I'm definitely a 3-season camper. Outdoor activities in sub-freezing weather just aren't my thing - yet. :)

Shane
Here are a few more contenders :
Coleman Falcon X,
MSR Carbon Reflex 1
Terra Nova Photon
Do keep in mind that as already pointed out all tents will suffer from condensation and some double wall tents (including the well liked Akto andHubba) can drip on you , when that happens I would prefer just to be able to wipe the fly and go back to sleep.
Also do look at the Tarptent Scarp 1 thread, a page back, a couple of hundred grams heavier than the manufacturers weight for the three I listed above, but much larger, and more versatile (IE all seasons) .
Franco

Shane:

Those two SD models weigh as much as my beloved 2-person BA Seedhouse 2 SL!

If you are not absolutely focused on squeezing out the last gram of weight -- comfort and everything else be damned -- then the "best overall" one-person tent may just be a light weight two-person tent.

My beloved Seedhouse 2 SL is a palace for one -- but actually tight for two. To me, this "1.5" person tent is a great balance in light weight, ease of use, and comfort for solo use.

Even for the more weight-conscious hikers amongst us, not every trip is so long or hard as to require serious gram shedding. For most trips, I take my Seedhouse. For the tougher ones (e.g. Mt. Whitney) -- I will use a lighter tarptent.

Edited by ben2world on 12/15/2008 14:13:22 MST.

Am I missing something, or could you not just buy carbon poles for an MSR Hubba, and save about a hundred bucks over the cost of a Carbon Reflex?

Joe:

You can. But I and some others have had multiple bad experiences with CF poles.

Now I want to be careful how I say this... maybe CF poles are not all the same and maybe CF poles work well in certain configurations but not others.

My Fibraplex CF poles -- custom configured in a two-hub-five-pole mode for my beloved BA Seedhouse 2 SL -- failed miserably. I snapped the poles twice during leisurely set up in my own backyard and then once out in the field. I can attest to Fibraplex's good customer service though -- after replacing pole sections so many times and always so quickly. But that's small comfort when out in the field.

Maybe CF poles will work better in less complicated configurations. But be cautious and be sure to test the thing out -- esp. after-market replacements.

Edited by ben2world on 12/15/2008 14:26:49 MST.

Hi Ben

> maybe CF poles are not all the same and maybe CF poles work well in certain configurations but not others.

Very true. The converted arrow shafts I use today are very reliable provided they are not over-bent. I trust them greatly.

The early-gen Fibraplex poles I tested were more flexible than the converted arrow-shaft ones, and I suspect might break more easily (but have not tested).

Any of the cheaper pultruded Cf tubes are very stiff UNTIL they fail under bending load - but when they fail they really do FAIL.

Mind you - over-bend Al tubes and they fail too. Some of the Easton tent tubes got a rep for being too brittle - they were.

> be sure to test the thing out
RECKON!

Cheers

A guy walks into a Honda dealership and says "Hey, do you have new car models or updates to your car models?"

The dealer says "Oh yeah, we updated the Civic, the Accord and we have a new..."

The guy cuts him off "No, no, I want to look at the cars, you know, for off-road"

The dealer says "Um, yeah, sure, OK, take a look at the CRV here..."

Sorry Shane, I just had to tease you. :) Tarp tents are tents. They protect against rain and bugs. Most of them are single wall, or hybrid double wall. I wouldn't own one if it didn't protect me against bugs. I have nothing against double walled tents, but if you ask about tents on this site, most people think you are talking about the tents that Mark mentioned. There are advantages to double walled tents, and many on this site use them, so it isn't unreasonable to ask about them here (especially this time of year). I suggest you might want to change the heading to avoid any confusion (something like "New ultralight 1 person double walled tents for 2009?").

Gossamer Gear is coming out with "The New One" which is evidently The One with new spinnaker.

"UPDATE: WE NOW HAVE SPINNAKER FABRIC THAT EXCEEDS OUR WATERPROOF TESTS AND WILL BE PRODUCING THE NEW ONE™ IN DECEMBER FOR RELEASE IN EARLY 2009."

> MSR's new Carbon Reflex looks interesting.
Usual MSR total lack of top ventilation?
Ah, the delights of condensation ...

Cheers

I had problems with condensation on my Hubba. In talking to MSR it didn't sound like they had any intention of adding one in the future. They assured me they had tested the tent in humid climates and that I shouldn't have a problem. I was probably imagining that wet fly in the morning. :) Otherwise, I have a good impression of MSR products.

I was probably imagining that wet fly in the morning. :)

Isn't the whole point of a doublewall that you get condensation on the fly as opposed to the inside walls of the inner tent?

Edited by simplespirit on 12/15/2008 17:43:38 MST.

Don:

My beloved Seedhouse is "all mesh" and there isn't any top vent in the fly either.

I have experienced very wet coatings of condensation on the underside of my fly -- but you know what? I can't recall noticing droplets crashing down through the inner!

Now, I am not saying that droplets will never crash through the mesh (I am sure it can when all the conditions are there) -- but my experience is that:

1. very, very few droplets break away from the underside of the fly

2. the very few that do, they fall on the mesh and quickly wick along the threads spreading out and staying up there -- much like they would if the inner was made with uncoated nylon or poly fabric. Again, pretty uncommon, so don't picture the mesh all wet with a film of water.


So vent or no vent / mesh fabric or solid fabric -- it's NOT an "either/or" situation where one is "bad" and the other "good". If there were such a pronounced difference, one would have driven the other out the market a long time ago. MSR (and Big Agnes) make superb tents. For three season use, you shouldn't expect any particular condensation problems with their tents -- meaning no worse than other great tents out there.

Edited by ben2world on 12/15/2008 17:56:23 MST.

Top Vents - MSR added a vent to the HP line.

With respect to condensation and a mesh inner (which is not really a true double walled tent in the strictest definition) if the wind picks up after copious accumulation on the fly you WILL get wet. Think of a rain shower with a touch of splatter. It is very refreshing. This is where a solid inner pays its dues.

I've used a double wall tent for many years and have never had any condensation problems. In fact, I was not aware that condensation was even an issue until I joined this forum! Sure my tent walls are usually wet when I take it down in the morning but it didn't even occur to me that the water was mostly coming from the inside.

Condensation almost always occurs in double wall tents. But in many of them it simply isn't an issue. Not with mine, anyway, and it has a full-mesh inner and I've used it in many different areas of the world.

David:

Having used both "all mesh" and "all solid fabric with closable vents" inner tents -- I will disagree with you that "all mesh" tents are somehow not totally double wall. In terms of keeping condensation away in three-season use -- mesh works marvelously. Not perfectly (no tent can deal totally with condensation) -- but marvelously competent. Indeed, 3 seasons, I only drag out my solid fabric inner tent for desert use -- to keep annoying sands out.

Edited by ben2world on 12/15/2008 22:28:21 MST.

Shane,
i feel ya! Many of the guys here do tarps, tarptents, bivitarps or bivitarptents with anything betweeen 1-0.4 walls;)
Sometimes you just want to be in a double wall tent - and thats that!
I can tell you that across the pond (UK) the absolute best sellers are Hilleberg Aktos (4 season, smalish 1 person, $$ and slightly on the heavy side i think at 1.4KG) and the Terra Nova LAser line that includes the Laser Photon at 790g, Laser Comp @940g which are both single person and well loved. There is alos the Laser @1.42kg which is a 2 person tent and is like sleeping in the presidntial suite when you are solo.
I personally havethe Laser (do solo + 2 person hikes with it) and couldnt be more pleased.
Take a look at http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=13028 its a thread her at BPL but with links and input from UK guys who use it alot in harsh conditions
Mike

I don't want to get off-topic, but to second Chris and Ben, I've never gotten wet from condensation in a mesh-bodied double-wall tent. Condensation forms on the fly and tends to flow down it; any droplets that fall are dispersed by the tent body. YMMV.

For the UL-ish double-wall, I would recommend considering Big Sky. I know Ben has had problems with them, and the company has had issues with delivery times. To be honest, I'm a dealer; although I've had a few time concerns, I've also had most of my (small) orders ship in reasonable time. Customer service I've received has been excellent and typically a 24 hour or less response. Just exercise good judgement and get oral verification that the tent you want is in stock.

All that said, I have an Evolution 2P at the shop. Pretty spacious, more room than a 2-P Hubba Hubba or SL2, and it weighs 3# 1.5oz. If you wanted to dump some money in it, you could shed about another 8 ounces by going to the SUL fly and CF poles. (Note that CF poles are typically not as durable, but...) Bottom line, you could get a spacious 2-person, double-walled tent at 2# 10 ounces. They do make a lighter solo version and some others you might want to check out. Food for thought.

Hi all,
The pre-production sample of the 2009, revised, Gossamergear One weighs 16.0 oz, so the production models should be in that range, or about an ounce less than last year.

Grant

nm

Edited by johnk on 12/16/2008 15:22:53 MST.

Brad,
Would it be possible to get a Porch Fly for my Evolution 2P? I got my tent in December, 2006, after waiting 373 days for delivery. I'd rather deal with someone who's got a better line to Big Sky than I. I'd prefer the Granite color and an aluminum pole would be ok. One of my Big Sky carbon fiber poles broke last summer and I've gone to my aluminum set, rather than deal with Bob again.

What happened to your Evolution 2P, Ben??

Michael,

I just received my brand new Laser Competition in the mail last night and I am kind of confused/disappointed as to it's weight. I thought the total weight of the complete tent with everything but the ground cloth would be 1 lb 14 oz. However, the weight comes out to 2 lbs 3 to 4 oz without the ground cloth. I have gone thru the whole package and that doesn't include anything extraneous, only what is needed to pitch it. I know my scale is accurate so I'm not sure what the problem is. The claimed weight was the whole reason I bought it. I'm going to keep it because it is still a reasonably light tent, but am disappointed.

"What happened to your Evolution 2P, Ben?"

Shhhh! Nothing has happened to my tent. I love it to death! But as Denis wrote above, BS has had major problems with delivery -- and credibility!

I will no longer write about this tent in case I convince anyone to buy -- and then get stuck waiting for 300+ days!

OTOH, if or when I see a pattern of new purchases with timely delivery and no other problems -- then I will sing its praises again.

And no, I didn't buy my tent direct from BS -- having been burned once already. I bought mine from a fellow hiker right here on this beloved forum.

And finally, Tom, how do you like your new Scarp? Aren't you going to post some initial feedback on it?

Edited by ben2world on 12/16/2008 18:38:40 MST.

Darren,
I recently purchased a Photon and it was right on for weight.

Somewhere on the tent is a tag with model and year. If that matches your expectations call the vendor, explain your concerns, and have them weight a couple they have in stock.

And if you're dealing with a reputable vendor you should be able to return it if it's not up to spec.

And just so you know - if you pitch it in dry fine sand it will gain a few more ounces just from static cling.

I have had much worse condensation in my old double-wall tent (Sierra Designs Clip Flashlight) than I ever have in a single-wall. Because of the outward slanting screen door, the vestibule had to be closed up tight even in the merest drizzle. As a result, there was horrendous condensation on the underside of the fly, which leaked through into the inner tent, leaving puddles on the floor and on my sleeping bag.

My experience with Henry Shires' Tarptents in the past three years is that even in horrendously damp conditions I haven't had as much nearly condensation as in that SD tent. And if the worst comes to the worst, the single wall tent can easily be wiped down, while the underside of the fly on a double-wall tent will remain dripping wet until you take the tent down and shake the fly.

I believe that the amount of ventilation, rather than the number of walls, is the key to fighting the condensation battle.

Having used many double and single wall tents in areas of high rainfall and high humidity I know that copious condensation can occur in both types. The number of walls certainly doesn't make a difference. However in a double wall tent the inner walls should stay dry so that it's easier to keep condensation off your gear and yourself. Of course the tent has to be designed properly. I haven't used the SD Clip Flashlight but from the description it's a poor design for wet weather. I've used double wall tents where the flysheet door overhangs the inner so rain falls straight into the inner if the door is open. This is a bad design but not a flaw in all double wall tents. Just last weekend I camped in a double wall tent in steady rain. Because the inner door was vertical and not overhung by the flysheet door and there was a vent cover over the top of the flysheet door zip I was able to leave the flysheet door open without any rain getting into the inner. This also allowed steam from boiling water to escape and gave me a view - albeit a somewhat grey and hazy one due to the weather. By morning the inside of the flysheet was soaked with condensation but the inner was dry as was my down sleeping bag.

Ventilation is the best answer to condensation but even that does not always work. In still humid weather I've had condensation dripping on me from a tarp pitched as a lean-to with the back a foot off the ground. The problem in the usually wet and windy places I regularly camp is that vents need to be closed to keep out the weather, resulting in much condensation. I find double-wall tents the best for coping with that, with pyramid style floorless single wall tents the next best.

This is not to say that double wall tents are best everywhere. They certainly aren't. I used a tarp on the Arizona Trail and on a five week High Sierra trip - a double wall tent would not only have been unnecessary weight but also less enjoyable to use. But in the Scottish Highlands where I'm often inside the shelter with all doors and vents closed due to the wind and rain a double wall tent is very comfortable and efficient.

Chris, you are so right about the tent design--if there's an outward slanting door (lots of "standard" tents, at least here in the US, have those; it's one way the manufacturers try to reduce the weight) that you can't leave open most of the time, the tent is going to be condensation heaven (the opposite place for the occupants). So make sure the door is vertical, not sloping, when you select amy type of tent.

To borrow from the thread on your excellent recent article about gear for long, cold rains: If I were going back to a double-wall tent, I'd definitely want one in which the outer fly can be pitched first when it's raining. Again, this is not a common feature for US-made tents; in fact I've never encountered one. Back in my double-wall tent days, I tried laying the fly over the inner tent and crawling under it to set the poles, but the inner tent still got wet inside and I usually ended up with rain down my neck while attempting these gyrations. At least with a single-wall tent, it's a lot easier to keep the inside dry when pitching in a rain.

Hey Ben,
Have you ever considered selling your 2P with a GUARANTEED delivery date? You could probably get $600 easy and have cash to satisfy your lust for new GEAR. ;}
Initial feedback on the Scarp 1 is going to have to wait until the weather returns to its usual civilized self up here. It's been "No Country for Old Men" up here lately. Stay tuned-it's at the top of my list

hi Mary

> I believe that the amount of ventilation, rather than the number of walls, is the key to fighting the condensation battle.

Utterly so.

cheers

Hi Chris

> I've used double wall tents where the flysheet door overhangs the inner so rain falls straight into the inner if the door is open. This is a bad design

Correction: it isn't even a 'design'. It's just totally inept incompetence.

Cheers

> Correction: it isn't even a 'design'. It's just totally inept incompetence.

Sounds like you would take major issue with the Seedhouse 1 then...

We all have our own preferences (which is why 'choice' is such a good thing) -- and to me, BA's fly design serves my needs brilliantly.

Here's the way I look at it:

1. Rain -- If it's raining, I can ready myself -- then open up the fly, get inside, and close up the fly in mere seconds. So 7 raindrops made it into the inner tent. No big deal. I'll just wipe them up -- takes me 2 seconds.

2. Condensation -- As I and others have written already -- there is no tent that will always be free of condensation. However, the Seedhouse has performed marvelously well in the 'condensation department' over the last 5 years of 3+ season usage -- and I know there are many other enthusiastic owners out there as well. If the design is 'flawed', then the Seedhouse and other similar tents should have become 'tent dinosaurs' long ago -- but obviously they haven't.

3. Benefits -- So the disadvantages are pretty minimal to nonexistent -- buy why even have them? Well, the Seedhouse 2 SL weighs just under 3 lbs -- which is pretty darn light for a freestanding double-wall tent! Inept design? Just compare its weight with tents that "boast" an added brow pole and vestibule overhang -- like the ones from Sierra Designs or TNF, etc. Those tents weigh a pound or even more than the Seedhouse! For me, I am just not willing to carry an extra half pound or pound (or even more) for 8-10 hours -- day in and day out -- rain or shine -- every time I hike -- just so I can have a drier entry! I'll just take the extra 2-3 seconds to wipe the 7 extra raindrops, thank you.

Stating the obvious, almost everything in tent design is an exercise in compromises -- a balancing act. So pick your poison.

Edited by ben2world on 12/17/2008 22:25:30 MST.

> Sounds like you would take major issue with the Seedhouse 1 then...

In bad weather - yep. No apologies.

Cheers

I tested a Seedhouse 2 in Scottish conditions a few years ago and I did have condensation dripping through the mesh inner at times. However I also found that as the flysheet doesn't come down to the ground there was a better air flow and less condensation than in tents with down to the ground flysheets. This in turn had two other disadvantages - cold winds blew under the edge of the flysheet and through the mesh at times making the tent quite cold and heavy rain could bounce up under the flysheet when pitched on hard ground though the high groundsheet walls prevented most of this from entering the tent. Due to the sloping inner door there isn't much space for cooking safely in the porch when the outer door is closed, which it has to be in rain. Overall I thought the tent okay for areas with light rainfall and low humidity but not ideal for the Scottish Highlands.

Chris> I've used double wall tents where the flysheet door overhangs the inner so rain falls straight into the inner if the door is open. This is a bad design

Roger>Correction: it isn't even a 'design'. It's just totally inept incompetence.

I think the design is historical and dates back to when the flysheet was an optional extra that was thrown over the tent when necessary. As Mary says US tents are mostly of this design. I'd never seen one in Britain until the first North Face tents arrived here in the 1980s.

Chris:
Are you able to make a suggestion on designs superior to the Seedhouse for a 1-person double-wall 3-season tent?

Shane,
My favourite for many, many years has been the Hilleberg Akto, in which I've spent hundreds of nights and used on a 3/12 month walk in the Scottish Highlands. For wet, windy weather it's superb. Whilst it was ultralight when introduced in the early 90s it is heavier than alternatives now. The Terra Nova Laser Competition is lighter weight and a similar design. It's not as stable though.

As I've read your book, I knew you were going to say that. :) (I gave it an excellent review on Goodreads.com as well.)

For the Terra Nova, I have read that it is stifling at temperatures over 70F or so. As I live in the mid-atlantic US, I see temperatures ranging from 20F to 90F during the year, so something that has great ventilation is key for me for summer use.

Thanks for the review, Shane.

I imagine the Akto would be stifling at 90F as well if you had to close the doors. Does it rain when it's 70-90F? For temperatures like that I'd be inclined to use a tarp.

However you mentioned bugs earlier, which is a problem in Scotland in summer. I'd rather be too hot than be driven mad by midges. I have at times sealed myself into the Akto on nights when the temperature was in the 60s and it was very warm. For dealing with heat and bugs I'd probably go for a roomy tent with a mesh inner like the GoLite Shangri-La 2 or 3.

Edited by Christownsend on 12/18/2008 08:43:18 MST.

As a past owner/user of a Akto I would agree that this is a design well worth consideration. If looking today for such a shelter I would personaly look to the new TT Scarp 1. It takes the proven Akto design concept to a new level IMO.

Yes, we can get rain at those temperatures. Summers here can be very humid, but we also get massive amounts of bugs during the summer months. Thus I would need a tarp or tarp-tent with a bug netting. Basically I'm just trying to get the best all-around tent I can get until I decide to branch out to more shelters. I'll probably wait on the new Big Agnes design, as it looks like a lighter and maybe superior Seedhouse design.

Pick the right tool for the job at hand.

I suspect Roger has never used the Seedhouse. Having said that, I haven't used the Akto either -- so some of this is just us talking gear and enjoying it.

Being a happy Seedhouse owner, I would NOT use it for winter camping -- with freezing cold winds blowing -- just as I would not use single-wall tarptents for same. These are tents meant for three-season use.

By the same token, reading the many user feedback, while the Akto is delightful (meaning both robust and lightweight) for normal winter use -- it is suboptimal for warm, humid summer use. Its double-wall design, its use of 'solid' fabric inner, along with its "winter design" where the fly reaches all the way down to the ground -- all can make this a warm and uncomfortable tent for summer use.

For three season use, do you really want to drastically cut your living space -- a nylon coffin really -- without saving any weight and subject yourself to potentially warm / uncomfortable nights? And for what?

If you are not a "space hog" like me and don't mind a smaller but still perfectly adequate interior space, then I heartily agree that the upcoming Big Agnes is well worth a look (and wait).

Finally, if you are looking for the one tent that can "do it all" with minimal compromises -- good luck. Much more likely, given the wide, wide differences in temps and terrain, etc. -- you will end up like the rest of us -- buying multiple gear pieces -- tents included. :)

Edited by ben2world on 12/18/2008 12:21:42 MST.

> For three season use, do you really want to drastically cut your living space -- a nylon coffin really -- without saving any weight and subject yourself to potentially warm / uncomfortable nights? And for what?

What are you referring to when you say nylon coffin? The new BA Fly Creek, or a tarptent? I definitely want something in the Seedhouse 1 size, which the Fly Creek appears to be modeled on.

Shane:

Nylon coffin is obviously a loaded term, and a subjective one. I was referring to the Akto. Sure, it has an adequately wide midsection -- but the ends are narrow (I believe only 24 inches -- or barely 4 inches wider than the width of a standard sleep pad). Not an issue for some, but small for others.

Edited by ben2world on 12/18/2008 12:20:07 MST.

I've never heard the Akto called a nylon coffin before! One reason I like it is because it's roomy for the weight. I don't like tents without room for a comfortable evening and night in bad weather - and I've tested two this year like that. I don't think the narrow ends of the Akto are a problem unless you are very tall - it is 87" long after all - but the height might be for six footers.

All that said I wouldn't choose the Akto except for wet and windy weather and exposed sites. It's overkill for milder conditions.

Denis-
Sorry for the delay in answer--I tend to be on the forums at work, and had yesterday off. In short, I just got off the phone with Big Sky and they said they do have an Evo 2P porch fly available. Pricing is $239.95 for fly (and pole) only; whole tent is $389.95 if you wanted to go that way. Both are in stock. Let me know if you're interested! Cheers-

Edited by 4quietwoods on 12/18/2008 14:24:33 MST.

I still don’t get the view Chris of the Terra Nova Laser Competition being not as stable as an Akto. It is designed to flex and give in harsh winds. So there is no point comparing it as the design is different. Too many people have used them in awful conditions and they are standing in the morning with no damage. Peter McFarlane has had his on Munro Summits in the most horrendous conditions and the tent is there in the morning fine. I use at the moment the bigger Laser and it is as good as the Akto any day in a storm. The Laser range of tents is superb and the Akto is very expensive now and heavy for the size (low head room of 90cm) and needs to be updated. The porch is over rated as it is wide at one point and cuts back at a sharp angle so the space along the length is reduced to nothing. Not the super tent it is often made out to be.

Martin, I prefer a tent that lets me sleep comfortably in strong winds, which means not flapping and flexing too much. I know the Laser Competition stays up in strong winds but it's movement makes it unstable compared with the Akto. Stability is not just about whether a tent is still standing in the morning.

I find the porch perfect so wouldn't agree it's over-rated. I can store my pack, boots and wet gear on the closed side and cook on the door side. What more could I want?

The Akto is a superb tent. Without it there wouldn't even be the Laser tents. The Laser tents are good too. I have recommended them in the past. I just find the Akto better.

Of course it's a matter of personal choice which tent you prefer and if someone finds the Laser better than the Akto then for them it is. The Akto is better for me.

For three season use -- there are just too many other options that are at once bigger, lighter and better ventilated than the Akto. Will the Akto do the job? I am sure it will -- but I don't see the superlatives within.

For winter use -- and I am only reading here -- legions of users praise it because of its adequate living and vestibule space and because of its high wind resistance -- all for very little weight (for a winter tent). However, I've also read that it's broadly slanting tops make it very much suboptimal for wet, heavy snowfalls

Chris (and other Akto users) -- is the above re. heavy and wet snowload completely unfounded?

Edited by ben2world on 12/18/2008 15:56:14 MST.

Fair comments Chris. On porch space the Laser set up of the whole length being the same depth is stunning. Gives so much room and you can reach around the ends and store stuff as well. Good point in pointing out the Akto spawned a whole range of light tent design. But it is expensive now. But hey if it works for you stick with it.

I wouldn't use the Akto or any single hoop tent in heavy snow by choice. There just isn't the necessary support at the ends so you have to keep knocking the snow off. I have used both the Akto and Laser Competition in heavy snow. That said, heavy snow isn't that common in Scotland so it's okay for most winter weather here.

I am talking about the Akto for use in the Scottish Highlands and places with similar weather, which means summers that are usually wet and windy, and exposed sites. I wouldn't choose the Akto for forest camping or for areas with dry summers. In areas like that I prefer tarps or, if biting insects are a problem, well ventilated tarp tents.

The Laser does have a nice big porch - bigger than I need! It is of course designed for two.

Designed for two Chris (as long as your good friends) and loads of room for one. Also weight is less than an Akto. Makes a roomy one man tent does the Laser.

Thanks for the additional insights, Chris.

Edited by ben2world on 12/18/2008 16:39:41 MST.

Martin was certainly talking about the Laser! He was continuing on from my comment about the Laser porch.

You could possibly sleep two in the Akto without the inner. Outside of midge season I have sometimes used the Akto outer with a separate groundsheet.

>>All that said I wouldn't choose the Akto except for wet and windy weather and exposed sites. It's overkill for milder conditions.

Having spent two months in a Saivo in 2005, any Hilleberg tent is overkill in mild conditions.

Edited by citystuckhiker on 12/18/2008 20:09:49 MST.

http://warmlite.com/tents.htm

We are reviewing two neat solo UL tents side by side this winter, which is exciting for me because I get to be the lead on this review! They are the Scarp 1 from TarpTent and the Terra Nova Laser Photon.

I'm really impressed thus far with TarpTent's design features, there are some unique things in it that make the tent a pretty good performer in four-season conditions (snow loading).

For three season use, and in heavy wind/rain, I love the Laser Photon, especially the fact that the inner tent is NOT mesh and thus actually protects you from condensation. But a snow-worthy tent this is not - a few inches here and there is fine, but it's not suited for big winter storms.

More soon, keep your eyes peeled.

"...especially the fact that the inner tent is NOT mesh and thus actually protects you from condensation."

So Ryan, are you saying that a mesh inner does NOT protect you from condensation? I ask because that just hasn't been my experience. Perhaps some will chalk my experience as insufficient -- except that BPL itself published a rather glowing review on the BA Seedhouse 2 SL! And what about other perennially popular mesh inner tents -- such as the MSR Hubba series? And their legions of fans? What gives?

Edited by ben2world on 12/18/2008 23:00:45 MST.

I've been admiring the design of the Scarp 1 on Henry's website for some time. It looks like it has a lot of nice features.

But...

1) Do you really need two vestibules in a 1-person tent? I *think* I'd rather have a slightly wider inner tent area than a second vestibule. (But, then again, this is just from looking at photos...I haven't had the pleasure of seeing a real one.)

and

2) At 56 ounces with the diagonal poles, it's in the weight range of a lot of attractive alternative shelters.

Still, I look forward to your review, Ryan. Henry's designs have always been the benchmark for elegance.

@ben:

I really only use a tent in foul weather so my results are biased towards wet, drippy conditions where wind rattles the tent and shakes the condensation off the inside of the fly, and through the mesh.

The other scenario is in freezing conditions where frost and not liquid condensation forms on the inside of the fly and wind shakes the condensation off the fly and through the mesh inner.

I really don't like mesh inner tents, but that is my personal bias, because I rarely use tents in 3-season conditions. With one exception: in the peak of bug season, I'll use a mesh inner bug tent under a tarp, but condensation and bad weather is not so much of an issue in the summertime.

I think a mesh inner will protect you from condensation falling off the inside of the fly, but not as well as a fabric inner tent. And, a fabric inner seems to provide significantly better protection from spindrift and frost falling off the fly.

@mike:

I LOVE two vestibules on a solo shelter -- one to store gear, and one for cooking.

"I think a mesh inner will protect you from condensation falling off the inside of the fly, but not as well as a fabric inner tent."


Ryan, thanks for the quick response. Your statement above aligns much more closely with my own experience -- and the many feedback from users and reviewers.

In a nutshell, we are always making tradeoff's between features and weights. A mesh inner actually provides significant protection against "inside showers" -- to the point where it just hasn't been an issue in my four-plus years of using the Seedhouse. Obviously, a denser-weave nylon fabric inner will be that much better -- but for added weight of course!

But if we step back a bit, we realize that legions of hikers are quite happy with their single wall tarptents -- where there isn't even a mesh barrier -- never mind a solid fabric barrier!

In the end, in many scenarios, tarptents with no inner barrier of any kind is more than good enough for a lot of us. A solid fabric inner offers the maximum protection (albeit still not 100%). Some might prefer the maximum -- but there are many who actually view the mesh inner as a very happy balance between the two -- and a great option in its own right -- esp. in warmer climes.

Edited by ben2world on 12/18/2008 23:29:12 MST.

"I LOVE two vestibules on a solo shelter -- one to store gear, and one for cooking."

Right on, Ryan. Call me spoiled but I too love a dual-vestibule tent!

There are places for all types of tents of course. No one type is right for all conditions. Hilleberg tents are for stormy weather and thus great in the Scottish Highlands where it's stormy much of the time and the weather is unpredictable. If my regular backpacking area was the High Sierra or the Pyrenees I wouldn't have much use for a Hilleberg tent and would mostly use a tarp or a tarp tent (which I use when I visit those areas).

My favourite shelter is a tarp as I like the freedom it gives. But I don't use one much in Scotland as I prefer the security and comfort of a double wall tent in wet and windy weather.

The Scarp 1 does look interesting. I'll be testing one in Scottish conditions and will be very interested in how it copes with snow and high winds.