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David Lewis
(davidlewis) - MLife

Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
62 gram (2.2 oz) Esbit stove w/24 oz pot on 11/27/2005 17:44:20 MST Print View

Ok... I finally did up a page with pics, specs and plans for my 62 gram Esbit stove (includes 24 fl oz pot).

Here is the link

David Lewis
(davidlewis) - MLife

Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: 62 gram (2.2 oz) Esbit stove w/24 oz pot on 11/29/2005 20:43:51 MST Print View

Replying to my own post / thread :) I had mentioned elsewhere that I'd hoped to get this system down to 44 grams, but it's not going to happen.

I was hoping to make the grabber and the windscreen/stand out of the Titanium stock sold here... but I've found that both are too lightweight.

The foil, at 0.001" is just too thin to support 16 oz. of water.

The rods can make a grabber that works... taking my grabber from 13 grams to 3 grams... but the rods are very thin... a little thinner than bicycle spokes... and so the handle flexes a lot with 16 oz. of water in the pot. It does actually work... and it's got a very secure grip on the pot... but the flexing in the handle makes me uncomfortable with the idea of using it with boiling hot water. The coat hanger grabber is rock solid... no flex at all. If I can source Ti rod that is twice the diameter of the BPL rods... it would be plenty strong and still probably lighter than the coat hanger grabber.

Likewise... I'm going to see if I can source some thinner but stronger metal for the windscreen/stand. Perhaps 0.002" stainless would work (I don't imagine I'll find titanium foil locally). The screen/stand is currently made of 0.004" aluminum and it holds the weight just fine. I COULD use the BPL Ti foil in combination with a seperate stand... but then my weight starts going over the current 62 grams... even with the weight savings of the Ti windscreen :) With my current design, I'm not counting the 14 grams worth of tent stakes that double as a stand.

Oh I know... 62 grams is plenty light enough for a stove... but it's not about that anymore :) It's about the fun and the challenge of making the lightest possible cook system that it both very complete (24 oz pot with handle, lid with handle, windscreen, stand and esbit holder) and very functional (i.e... I could use tin foil for the lid and save a lot... but I love the functionality of having a solid lid for packing purposes).

Edited by davidlewis on 11/29/2005 20:49:14 MST.

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
mcmaster carr and onlinemetals on 11/29/2005 20:50:05 MST Print View

go to mcmaster.com and put stainless foil in the search field, 0.002" SS Foil

also, do the rods flex to much to use them as your pot supports in place of the stakes? What if you put in three (in a triangle) rather than two? the level arms would be significantly shorter so they should bend a lot less...

also, onlinemetals.com have 1/8" Ti Round Bar for probably affordable in grade 2 (2.70 / ft) or grade 5 (12$ / ft)

Edited by jdmitch on 11/29/2005 20:55:58 MST.

David Lewis
(davidlewis) - MLife

Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: mcmaster carr and onlinemetals on 11/29/2005 21:14:29 MST Print View

Thanks so much for the sourcing pointers Joshua. Probably won't find any of this stuff locally... except maybe at a hobby shop... so those links will be a big help.

I'm currently trying to think up ways to use the rods to make a stand alone stand (non-windscreen dependant). I don't know if the z-stand would work with a beer can... it's a very small diameter pot and it's not a flat bottom. The rods... on end... (point loads) would of course support a LOT of weight... like the z-stand. The problem with using them as a grabber is that the weight is cantelivered out and down and is loading the rods horizontally... if you know what I mean. I know one could just use some spare socks or something to grab the hot pot... but including a handle on the pot is part of my design criteria... it's something I really want to have.

As for using the rods instead of my tarp stakes... the beauty of the stakes is that I don't count them in my stove weight :) If I use the dedicated rods... they will count. So the question is... what's lighter... a slightly heavier windscreen that can double as a stand when coupled with your tarp stakes... or an uber light Ti windscreen used in combination with a dedicated, freestanding pot stand.

Oh... also... the new BPL esbit holder/pot stand is a little too big for a beer can :( Too bad... it's a beautiful thing!!! I may buy another and modify it to make it smaller diameter.

Edited by davidlewis on 11/29/2005 21:15:02 MST.

Daniel Goldenberg
(dag4643)

Locale: Pacific Northwet
Re: Re: mcmaster carr and onlinemetals on 11/29/2005 22:50:26 MST Print View

"As for using the rods instead of my tarp stakes... the beauty of the stakes is that I don't count them in my stove weight :) If I use the dedicated rods... they will count. So the question is... what's lighter... a slightly heavier windscreen that can double as a stand when coupled with your tarp stakes... or an uber light Ti windscreen used in combination with a dedicated, freestanding pot stand.

Oh... also... the new BPL esbit holder/pot stand is a little too big for a beer can :( Too bad... it's a beautiful thing!!! I may buy another and modify it to make it smaller diameter."

I just received my titanium wing stove and titanium foil yesterday and did some quick weighing. As David noted the wing stove is just barely too large for a beercan pot but would be easily modified by bending the legs in just a tad.

I cut the titanium foil down to 16 inches which will produce a diameter good for a SP 600 pot/mug and anything smaller. The windscreen, with titanium wing stove, fosters beercan pot with silicone lip guard and doubled foil for a lid came out to 1.8 oz. That titanium foil is really light.

The wing stove can of course be lightened by drilling it out :)

Edited by dag4643 on 11/29/2005 22:56:35 MST.

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
"Stake weight doesn't count" Well, that depends... on 11/30/2005 17:58:56 MST Print View

"As for using the rods instead of my tarp stakes... the beauty of the stakes is that I don't count them in my stove weight :) If I use the dedicated rods... they will count."

However, the question you need to ask yourself is, "should they count?"

The answer to that depends, are these spare stakes or stakes you need to actually pitch your tarp?

If they are spares, they SHOULD be counted in your "kitchen" wieght (after all, if you don't need them to pitch your tarp, you're fooling yourself by saying they are 'spares' when their primary use is for your stove).

Also, what happens if you lose a stake and need to use the spare for your tarp?

If they aren't spares, you're sacrificing the ability to have your tarp pitched while cooking (a bad tradeoff for less than a couple of grams in my opinion).

The only way I can think that these SHOULDN'T count is if these are two stakes used to "batten down" your tarp just before you go to bed. However, it begs the questions "what happens if you lose a stake?" If you carry additional spares, well, you're back to "these stakes really should be counted in your stove weight, because that is their PRIMARY use".

Otherwise, I could claim to reduce my shelter weight significantly my calling ALL of my stakes "part of my kitchen set up"

David Lewis
(davidlewis) - MLife

Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: "Stake weight doesn't count" Well, that depends... on 11/30/2005 19:38:02 MST Print View

Thanks for the post Joshua. They are in fact stakes that I use for my tarp... they are not spares and they are not extras used just for my kitchen... they are true dual use. Yes... that means I can't cook and have my tarp up at the same time... but I only use my stove once a day... which is always on trail... about 2 hours before making camp. I never cook in camp. It's worked well so far. I've also never lost a stake and I never carry extras... I figure you can always improvise if you were to lose a stake. Other than sticks and rocks... the first thing that comes to mind is actually the carbon fiber stays in my Mariposa pack. If I was going on a long thru-hike... I would probably carry spare stakes.

But yes... I wouldn't mind having a dedicated solution for my stand. The BPL titanium esbit wing stove would be perfect if it was a little smaller... to work with my beer can pot. I can't bring myself to bend the legs in :) I'm gonna buy another one or two extras and play with modifying those... but I don't want to bend the only one I have. I'm gonna keep the unadulaterated one for use with my MSR Titan pot :)

Edited by davidlewis on 11/30/2005 19:42:20 MST.

Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
Re: Re: "Stake weight doesn't count" Well, that depends... on 11/30/2005 20:24:06 MST Print View

David,
One idea to save your elegant Tita wing (I love mine, and have already carved it up): For your UL cooker, make an 'H' or 'W' with the middle flattened from expanded aluminum gutter screen or expanded stainless steel lath. Just a strip of screen a smidgen wider than your can pot and long enough to fold to form 2 legs and pot supports with a flat for the Esbit tablet between them. Experiment with paper or shirt cardboard to get what you want. You can bend the tops of the pot supports so the can really nests securely in 4 notches. Clearance to the Esbit tab should be about 1 1/4 inches. This rig solves the pot support issue. It's lighter than the tit wing stove (0.3 in aluminum), more stable than tent stakes through the windscreen, and lets you use a lighter windscreen such as oven liner. You can't use this burner as a tent stake. Sorry. Maybe a toothbrush holder. On the other hand, my almost identical rig, (same pot, lid, windscreen, burner/pot support here described, bail)weighs right at 60 grams - without needing those versatile but ambiguous stakes which could be keeping your tarp up in the rainstorm as you enjoy a hot cuppa.

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
Vick's Solution, and an Idea to use the Ti Esbit without carving it... on 11/30/2005 21:43:27 MST Print View

Vick,
Have you posted pictures of the setups you just described? I can't seem to picture what you're describing.

David,
I just had a flash of something that I think 'might' solve the need to not carve up thee ti esbit stove and still be able to use it for Beer Can (this may be similar to what Vick is thinking, but I can't tell...)
Take a Ultrarod, and form it into an equilateral triangle just big enough to 'hold' the bottom of a beer can, twist (or something) the two free ends together to lock the triangle and prevent it from spreading, trim the excess, now you should have a very light, removable, 'feet' that might stick out far enough balance on the legs of the stove (aka a way to expand the henie pot's 'diameter' a tiny bit).

I don't know if I'm explaining that well, I can see it in my head, but...

Anyhow, if you try it and it doesn't work, at worst you've wasted a single ultrarod.

also, a question. How long of trips do you go on where you just cook a single meal on the trail? I'm curious, since, for me, comfort factor of food rates high on my 'ease of enjoying sleeping' scale when I'm out doors. Maybe a day or two, I wouldn't mind, but I think I'd start getting cranky if I couldn't eat hot meals before I laid down to chill out for the night (aka no more 'work' setting up camp and such)

Edited by jdmitch on 11/30/2005 21:46:19 MST.

David Lewis
(davidlewis) - MLife

Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Re: Re: "Stake weight doesn't count" Well, that depends... on 12/01/2005 04:51:15 MST Print View

Hey Vick. Thanks for the ideas. I think I follow you. The H or W you are talking about is in elevation right... not plan? I've actually thought also about simply making a ring out of hardware cloth. That's a common solution. But I haven't tried it yet. I would continue to just use the 2 gram V8 can bottom to hold the esbit tab.

I guess the thing is, when I was designing this thing... it was all about being as light as possible while still including all my desired "features" (like the handles). So any kind of dedicated stand was out. I love the dual use idea of the tent stakes. Also, that weight savings allows me to hit the 62 gram mark while still having a real lid with a fold down handle (great for packing as I stow everything inside the pot) as well as an awesome handle for my can pot. That's a lot of function per gram :)

However, the tent stake thing does bother me a little... mostly because the aluminum I'm using is so thin... just a little thicker than oven liner. I'm using cookie sheets... not flashing... it's like... 0.004". It comes in at 10 grams. So no matter what I do for a dedicated stand, it will increase the weight a little... even if I use a Ti foil windscreen. But ya, that aluminum is pretty thin. It's right on the very edge of being not strong enough. So mostly I worry that over time, the thin aluminum will not stand up... no pun intended :) That would be solved by going to something thicker... like flashing... but then I'm over 20 grams for the windscreen and I may as well go with a dedicated stand :)

BTW... an idea I had to make the tent stake thing more stable... at least from the point of view of holding the pot in place... is to cut the lid off a Fosters with a safe cut can opener and then cut the top portion of the can off... about 1/4 or an inch... then make 4 small holds for the stakes to go thru. This would give you a nice ring for the pot to nest right into.

So many ideas... too little tinkering time :)

Oh... about the cuppa. I don't do hot drinks :) See... I got all the tent stake cons covered man... lol! :) It is a good point tho'... cooking in the rain. However, I only need 2 stakes to cook... and most tarps (including the SpinnShelter I'm currently using) require a lot of stakes anyway. So I could always temporarily steal the door stakes or even the back corner stakes and the shelter would still stand.

Edited by davidlewis on 12/01/2005 05:31:03 MST.

David Lewis
(davidlewis) - MLife

Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Vick's Solution, and an Idea to use the Ti Esbit without carving it... on 12/01/2005 05:31:33 MST Print View

Josuha... re: cooking. I mostly do 2-3 day trips. I cook the meal usually around 5:00 pm or so... on trail... maybe 1-2 hours before making camp. I hear ya tho'. Cooking in camp is a nice ritual. But I like the on trail thing too. I like not having as much fussing to do once I make camp. Also, I'm notorious for not leaving enough time before sunset to get everything done. In the past... I ended up cooking in the dark half the time and missing the sunset. That doesn't happen so much now that I only have one thing to do once I stop hiking for the day.

It's really a personal thing though. Some people love the camping part of backpacking... others prefer the hiking part. For me... I just LOVE the hiking part and camp is kind of a necessary evil :) LOL. Well... evil is too strong a word... but you get my point. I love to just hike all day from sun up to almost sun down... happy as a clam :) That's why I love ultralight... because it allows me to really enjoy the hiking... which I would never do with a 40 pound pack. I started backpacking because I always... since I was a kid... just LOVED walking in the woods... or anywhere outdoors... and exploring. I figured I could see a LOT more by doing overnight trips... but I soon discovered that it was SOOOO painful! That 40 pound load was completely ruining the whole reason I went outdoors in the first place. Anyway... long story short... I spend almost all of my time on trail.

Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
Re: Re: Re: Re: "Stake weight doesn't count" Well, that depends... on 12/01/2005 08:28:14 MST Print View

The ring thing works very well, but I hadn't thought of trying it with a Heineken can until you mentioned it. I think it would work better than the H or W (elevation).

I have used the ring with standard pots and Esbit. Just make a ring of screen from a rectangle 1.5 inches wide and as long as necessary to get the ring diameter you need - I use expanded aluminum for the lighter weight and because the wires in hardware cloth are 'welded' with zinc. These never weigh more than 1/2 oz. Besides being heavier than aluminum, the zinc melts and the 'cloth' falls apart. Anyway, I cut a tongue and inch or so wide in the side of the ring at about the middle of the strip of screen, leaving 1/4 inch attached, and bend it to the inside of the ring to form the tab support. It is pointing at the gap or overlap between the ends of the strip of screen. Depending on the diameter of the ring, the tongue may not go all the way across. If not, just cut a corresponding tongue from the other side. It may be at the gap between the ends of the screen loop. That's OK. Just use stray wire ends to tie everything together.

If you are totally dedicated to using the windscreen as the pot support, have you tried creasing the sheet vertically? I use tent stakes or coat hanger wire (whichever is within reach) to form the crease over. That will really stiffen the support.

David Lewis
(davidlewis) - MLife

Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Stake weight doesn't count" Well, that depends... on 12/01/2005 13:43:57 MST Print View

I like your crease idea. It gave me another idea :) Remember those horrible hair crimping iron things from the 80's? Pick one of those up at a thrift shop and you'd have a really nice press to make crimped (i.e. wavey... zig zap) metal... to add strength. Cool :) You'd use it unplugped of course... just press down.

Daniel Goldenberg
(dag4643)

Locale: Pacific Northwet
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "Stake weight doesn't count" Well, that depends... on 12/01/2005 15:00:04 MST Print View

"If you are totally dedicated to using the windscreen as the pot support, have you tried creasing the sheet vertically? I use tent stakes or coat hanger wire (whichever is within reach) to form the crease over. That will really stiffen the support."

That's an excellent idea. I've been making my windscreens from a disposable baking sheet. One particular windscreen that I made was too tall to store in a pot, so I've been folding it flat. Each time I fold it it gets folded in a different spot so over time it has developed vertical creases. This particular windscreen is much stiffer than my other ones which I roll up and store inside pots. When I fold it I don't actually make an effort to form a crease, I just fold it so it is kind of flat, without trying to make a crease.

Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
windscreen reinforcement and Esbit burner on 12/01/2005 18:04:15 MST Print View

No need for a crimping iron. Just lay a piece of coathanger wire on a flat surface and mold the windscreen over it. You can notch a piece of wood and use it to chase the shape into the metal.

Daniel,
That's exactly where I got the idea - old creased windscreens.

Back to the Esbit pot support. This discussion got me going, so I hatched up a better one than I have ever used: A triangular pot stand/Esbit burner out of flashing that weighs (with some Esbit residue) 0.175 oz.!!!

Take a strip of aluminum flashing 8 inches long and 1 1/2 high. fold it with sides 2 1/2 inches long to form a triangle. There will be a 1/2 inch overlap, and make sure the overlap falls right next to a fold. Drill or poke (ice pick) 2 holes (1/8 inch) and pop rivet the overlap. Cut a tongue in the center of each side, 1 inch wide and to within about 3/8 of the bottom of each side. It helps to drill 1/8" holes where the cuts will end because you will then fold the tongues to the center, and the holes relieve stress and give a good, neat fold. Drill another hole in the middle where the tongues overlap. Take a rectangle of flashing to make a tray to hold the Esbit tablets, drill it in the middle, put the tray in the middle where the tongues overlap, and pop rivet everything together. On my test model, I tapered the pot supports and used a Dremmel to notch the tops to cradle a Heineken can.

The burner worked perfectly, and fits in the can. Now, will you give up the tent stakes. Easy, there. Just back away slowly. It will be OK.

David Lewis
(davidlewis) - MLife

Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: windscreen reinforcement and Esbit burner on 12/01/2005 19:31:29 MST Print View

Hey Vick... 5 grams eh... not bad... not bad at all. Damn good actually... esp. when you consider that the BPL Ti stand is 14 grams! That sounds like a very elegant solution. I love the idea of a triange with notches cut in it to accept the can bottom... that might nestle even better than a ring of metal since the ring would have to be pretty accurate. I'm gonna make one :) A cut down Ti windscreen would also be about 5 grams... so there it is... a stand and windscreen that weighs the same as my "tent-staked" windscreen... nice :) I'm gonna buy some flashing (and some aluminum gutter screen) this weekend and have some fun :) And I might pick up a vintage crimping iron at Value Village too... just for fun :) That or any other ridged / accordian shaped object. I'm also gonna drill holes in the top of the legs on my BPL Ti stand and fashion a Ti rod triangle. I thought of that right off actually... but these projects have to wait until the weekend.

Anyway... thanks again. The triangle stand sounds like a great solution.

Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
Re: Re: windscreen reinforcement and Esbit burner on 12/01/2005 19:54:12 MST Print View

DL,
Take some credit. You got me thinking. And it's lots better than the gutter screen: lighter and stronger. I made the prototype in about 1/2 hour. Duck soup. No detectible deterioration after 5-6 test runs.

Now my uberlite cookset weights 27 grams. (Sterno pot, lid, windscreen, pot support/burner). Now if I can make paper matches weigh less. Hey, I can save 10 pounds eventually by leaving the cookset and food at home. Hum.

Edited by vickrhines on 12/02/2005 07:24:57 MST.

David Lewis
(davidlewis) - MLife

Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
"Magic stove" stand on 12/03/2005 17:11:22 MST Print View

Holy crap :)

I was just at Canadian Tire buying some roof flashing to play with and I decided to check out the camping section. I was looking at those "can of jelly" stoves when I noticed one that included a stand. The can of gel is useless to me but the stand looked interesting... and it was only 5 bucks.

Anyway... so I get this thing home and Io and behold... to my utter amazement... a Heineken can fits EXACTLY into the thing... perfectly... like a glove... like it was made for it!!! It doubles as a windscreen and stand... no tent stakes OR seperate stand required... one peice. It's made of stainless so it's a little heavy... but it's so perfect and so functional that it's almost worth it.

Also, for those who don't want to be bothered with do it yourself projects... this is a total ultralight Esbit stove solution out of the box for 10 bucks! Just buy yourself a beer, a safe cut can opener and a "magic stove", and you're set!!! (minus my custom made handles and such).

Weight is 33 grams. Stainless steel.



Edited by davidlewis on 12/03/2005 17:16:17 MST.

Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
Re: "Magic stove" stand on 12/03/2005 19:03:08 MST Print View

DL,
This stuff is moving too fast, but anyway:
<
Lay out 8x1.5 inch strip on flashing, mark fold lines at 2.5 inch intervals. Mark drill fold holes 1/2 inch from centers between marks and 3/8 inch from side. Cut to the holes. Taper the legs (I measure 1/2 inch from each fold and cut to the fold holes.) Fold tabs to one side and crease and fold strip into triangle(center photo). Drill and rivet the triangle along one leg (2 rivets). Form pan and rivet to the tabs folded to center. Rough pot supports with file or Dremmel.

That's it. 5 Grams. Very sturdy. With Sterno pot, lid, and screen it's a 1 ounce cook kit.

Edited by vickrhines on 12/17/2005 12:59:49 MST.

David Lewis
(davidlewis) - MLife

Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Re: "Magic stove" stand on 12/03/2005 20:35:43 MST Print View

Thanks for the pics Vick. I'm gonna make one tomorrow.

I don't know if that magic stove stand would work well as a windscreen... and it's pretty heavy... relatively speaking... but it's just a thing of beauty how perfectly a Heineken just happens to nestle into it! It's so nice I almost don't care about the extra 20 grams... and I can actually get 10 grams back by going with a titanium pot handle instead of my coat hanger version.

BTW... how do you handle a sterno pot full of hot water? I never carry gloves with me unless it's late fall / early spring. Just wondering what other people do.

I guess ulimately... these make your own gear discussions are fantastic (invaluable really) for sharing ideas and getting ideas and taking what works for you... but in the end you just have to decide what's most important to you.

For instance, I don't think I'd switch to a foil lid. I like using the cut off can lid because it allows me to stow stuff securely inside my pot. It just makes a neat, tight package with the lid held on with an elastic and all my stove parts inside along with my aqua mira (my pot doubles as a bucket for collecting water).

Similarly... I love having a handle on my pot. I could use socks or something to pick up a hot pot... but I like the convenience of a dedicated handle.

I also need at least 16 oz. of volume. Most of the meals I would use (Enertia brand) or make and dehydrate at home (just starting to do this) require a minimum of 12 oz. of hot water.

Mostly I think I just like to tinker :) I mean really... my original 62 gram stove is pretty great... to me at least... FOR me. The challenge of making something insanely light is fun... but there is a point you get to where function starts to fall off... and I guess that point is a little different for everyone. To me, a great design is one that is the most efficient.

That's what ultralight is all about I think... efficiency... eeking out the most amount of function per gram :) I think my original design has a very high function per gram ratio :) The biggest inefficiency (for it's prescribed functionality) is the handle. 13 grams is way too much. But the Ti handle (tho' not as solid) is 3 grams. That's a huge percentage savings. I don't know that any new screen and stand combo with save much more than a couple of grams over my original screen + tent stakes.

Of course... that doesn't mean I'm not gonna make one of those stands tomorrow :) I just bought a dremel today actually and I can't wait to try it out. I'm sure it will come in handy for a lot of projects. Thanks again for the details Vick. I was going to ask you if you had any pictures actually... so that's awesome :)

Edited by davidlewis on 12/03/2005 21:21:28 MST.