Companion forum thread to:

Paramo Waterproof Directional Clothing

Great article Chris and definitely the best summary of how the waterproofing actually works.

Until I had some idea of the theory of how it keeps water away from you I couldn't bring myself to part with the cash. Hopefully your article will do that for many others.

Now that I use it, I also miss it greatly during the summer and everyone I walk with is slowly converting over to it for winter use as well. There's nothing like seeing someone remaining comfortable across all kinds of conditions whilst you sweat in a membrane to convince people it's not just marketing hype.

I've even been experimenting with just using a liner (+ separate windproof) during the summer.

I hear rumour Paramo are planning the same system to go into production in the next few months in fact.

Edited by RedYeti on 12/03/2008 04:02:55 MST.

I've been using Paramo for about six years now, in exactly the same configurations as Chris.

It took me a long time to use it but once I did I stuck with it. Nothing is as comfortable in cold and rainy conditions. As Chris says, Paramo waterproofs are very robust. My Alta II Jacket is now on its last legs but has been worn every day during the winter for 6 years.

In the summer I go for a more conventional layering system but on next year's TGO Challenge I will use the Third Element.

On my first Challenge I used a Paramo Velez over a simple baselayer. On my second I used a conventional layering system. There was little weight difference between the two, with the Paramo a few grams lighter. When you see Paramo as an integrated part of a whole system you see that it is not a heavy option.

Incidentally, Paramo's other products are worth exploring. Their new warm weather range - shirts and pants - are very comfortable in very hot and humid conditions.

Simple windproofs are good as well. A Paramo windshirt smock saw me through several European mountain treks very effectively. Though only water resistant these dealt with the weather quite happily. These tend to be a little heavier material than very lightweight windproofs and verge more towards the waterproof arena.

But back to the waterproofs. On cold, wet days there is nothing I would rather be wearing!

This sounds like it could work well in New England where winters are cold and wet.
How should the fit be? tight, loose, or does it matter?
I think I will at least try the pants.

Great article.
A couple years ago I got a Paramo Aspira Jacket and Cascada Trousers (I live in Colorado) after reading about them in Chris Townsend's book Backpacker's Handbook, 2nd Ed.
They work amazing for anything cold, wet or dry. I wear the jacket all winter long here for everything from just walking around to backcountry skiing, aid climbing, winter biking,.... and it is marvelous no matter what. The Aspira Jacket is rather heavy but I got it for the pocket space, which is great in winter, and in winter I'm generally wearing it all the time anyway, and it works so well that an extra pound isn't an issue.
If you do much at all in cold conditions, wet or dry, Paramo is the thing to get.

Thanks Chris for the good write up.

Paramo rain gear and their warm/humid 1st layer tops are clothing gear that really interest me. Too bad no USA source.

The people in the UK seem to be one step ahead of the rest of the world when it comes to innovated gear materials or processes. Pertex, P2i, Paramo....

An intriguing product, but too heavy for me to seriously consider it in my pack. Treating your rainwear as part of an intigrated system can work well in cold, dry conditions, but convincing myself that my heavy, warm, but WET raingear can act as a base or mid-layer in my sleeping bag is not at all appealing!

Well - as Chris says, you don't really intend to put it in your pack! That was one of the realisations that pushed me to try it. (And as mentioned above - I now love it).

And as for using it in a sleeping bag - well it would have to be very, very, very cold for me to consider that (and Chris too I imagine) in which case - there would be no liquid water available to make the Paramo wet. So it's not a crazy as it sounds.

>Well - as Chris says, you don't really intend to put it in your pack!

Agreed, I merely meant that, in NZ, there is no way to predict the weather far enough in advance to say "I won't want to take that thing off for the whole trip". Might be nice as a ski/snowbaord jacket or other cold weather single day use though! We can usually precict the weather at least half a day in advance...

Allison, predicting the weather a half day in advance is good going in Scotland! And that's where I mostly wear Paramo clothing. However I know that between October and May the weather will be cool enough for me to wear Paramo all the time, using the vents if its a little warm. Whether it's calm, windy, raining or snowing makes no difference - the Paramo stays on.

I haven't yet used Paramo waterproof clothing for a two week backpacking trip as late as May though I know people who regularly use it on the TGO Challenge. Maybe next year I will.

Great article Chris! I've been collecting information on Paramo for some time now as I am intrigued by the product. I do a lot of hiking in New England where, as other posters pointed out, might be an ideal use in winter where it can rain or snow or sleet.

The weight of the garments has been the one factor that has held me off from making a purchase. I am excited to hear that Paramo is heading toward a lighter weight line. The sooner the better, I say.

I have been looking (OK, drooling) over their Vasco jacket as it is one of their lighter offerings but mainly it has back vents in addition to the lines usual venting tricks. I think this would be important since this is a piece of clothing you would not want to take off and carry in a pack.

>predicting the weather a half day in advance is good going in Scotland!

Ditto here

>Whether it's calm, windy, raining or snowing makes no difference

Glad I don't live in Scotland. It sounds like you don't get unpredicatbly warm weather through the winter months ;)

Scottish weather is always unpredictable! Our winters are marginal, in that temperatures are mostly between -2 and +5C but can drop much lower (the record low is -27C) or rise to +10. We usually have a succession of freeze thaw cycles even high in the mountains. Snow can last a day or a fortnight before almost all of it melts. Very strong winds are common (reaching 160+ kph every month at times on summits)and precipitation runs from heavy rain through sleet and wet snow to real, dry snow. I find Paramo ideal for this cold wet climate.

There's something wrong with me. I found myself grinning at that summary of Scottish Winter weather Chris...

David, you have to grin or you'd cry ......

Hi Chris

So are the Creagh Dhu still around?

Cheers

Yup, Chris, the Scottish tourism industry will be drafting hate mail for you now as I type!!

New Zealand does not have a large temperature range, lacking the extremes found in most continental climates. However, New Zealand weather can change unexpectedly—as cold fronts or warm tropical cyclones quickly blow in. Because of this, you should be prepared for sudden changes in weather and temperature if you're going hiking or doing other outdoor activities. In some respects, it is better to carry 'too much' warm clothing rather than too little, but I'm always prepared for hot weather too, even in winter!

However, I still like the ideal of the Paramo clothing, but I wonder why it needs to be so heavy and thus warm? Maybe something to improve on in future. If it were lighter, it would also likely be less warm and therefore more versatile over a wider range of temps. I would dearly love a fully breathable lightweight waterproof jacket for hiking up hills in mild to warm rain...who wouldn't???

The technology kinda reminds me of the good old Swandri coats that outdoor workers used to wear. It was thick and rough, but the fabric's natural lanolin and semi-felted texture made it very breathable yet fairly water resistant (but warm and heavy).

Swandri

Edited by retropump on 12/04/2008 14:22:16 MST.

I recently purchased a Marmot Dri-Clime softshell garment with a DWR outer finish and microfleece inner. I don't know if it has the v-shaped fibers that give the Paramo garments their pump action.

But it's easily available in the US, relatively inexpensive and might work almost as well? (No hood on the Dri-Clime but I have a bicycling gortex stand-alone hood that might work).

Can anyone make a comparison?
Thanks.

Edited by martyc on 12/04/2008 14:11:34 MST.

The Driclime outer fabric is not really waterproof at all. It wets out very quickly in light rain...

You do have to be realistic about the weather in Scotland! That said, I've had some wonderful snowy days out recently.

Allison, New Zealand weather sounds much like Scotland's, which I guess isn't surprising as both are maritime countries.

Paramo is as heavy as it is because the inner layer has to be thick enough to work. Admittedly a very simple garment with minimal features would weigh less than the generally well specified Paramo designs. The weight of the new lighter garments is lower.

Roger, I don't know if the Creag Dhu is still going. They're very quiet if they are. Their heyday was the 1930s and 40s.

>New Zealand weather sounds much like Scotland's, which I guess isn't surprising as both are maritime countries.

Indeed, although it doesn't sound like Scotland gets many tropical cyclones!

>The weight of the new lighter garments is lower.

Good! Otherwise I'll be forced to keep my old Swandri!!! Yikes. It gives me a rash.

Chris,
Thanks for another great article and read! I'm really glad you reviewed these here; although the weights initially seem heavy, the garments are well worth it.

I have an old Patagonia Infurno jacket, same basic concept. Love the thing. It's consistently the most comfortable piece in my winter wardrobe. Toss on a light wool layer under it, and I'm good for just about anything. It breathes well enough, and manages moisture well enough, that even hiking at a decent clip doesn't overheat me--bizarre for me! And even in that 32*F rainy/sleety weather I stay dry. Good stuff.

An excellent summary, Chris.

Firstly I should declare an interest here: I worked for Paramo in the early 90s and now have a business, FurTech, making similar products.

I don't run quite as hot as Chris and find that I can use these systems over quite a wide range of temperatures. For example the Alta trousers were my only leg wear (except for shorts) on a summer crossing of the Haute Route a few years ago. Temperatures probably ranged from 30C to -5C. I find that the systems temperature flexibility, due to its breathability and venting options, to be one of it's greatest strengths (along with drying quickly). On that trip I carried a sack with kit for me and my wife, which many times included my Paramo garments and her's.

I'm not saying there aren't lighter systems, but weight can't be viewed in isolation without factoring in all those other aspects of performance. However, I did a comparison of weights some time ago, inspired by one of Chris's articles that can be seen here: http://furtech.typepad.com/furtech_used_for/2007/04/furtech_for_bac.html

Finally I'd just like to point out that the dry clime system is very different, because the lining is hydrophilic, constructed differently and designed to wick. The pump liner design is hydrophobic and is almost the opposite knitted construction.

For more information on breathability and drying please use this link: http://furtech.typepad.com/furtech/2006/11/phases_of_breat.html

Best regards, Andy Davison.

The stated performance (maximum breakability with excellent weather protection) appears to be the manifestation of all of the “softshell” claims that caused me to get a closet full of Epic, Powershield, Schoeller, etc.. jackets that never lived up to their advertising claims.

I have to reiterate something Allison said- if the jacket’s outer gets fully saturated, it shouldn’t be dried out by wearing it in a sleeping bag. If this occurs in winter, how the heck to you keep it from freezing at night?

Martin, the Marmot Driclime will wet out (but won’t Paramo as well? You just don't feel it?) and you’ll get wet. It excels at wicking, wind-blocking and breath ability. Worn next to skin, with a tight layer over it, it eliminates flash-off completely. I use one with a schoeller dry skin jacket for winter backpacking and climbing. Still need a hardshell as a back-up.

What I find interesting is David Wood’s liner jacket- it seems like the liner is the real mechanism at work here, so with one of those I could use an Epic or Schoeller jacket overtop and have a very versatile system. David- would just about any jacket work over the liner?

Other questions:
Why isn’t any American company using this?
Why are the designs so darn ugly? Seriously, my Gamma MX even makes me look good… some of us need the help.

Paramo works far better than Epic, Powershield or any of the Schoeller fabrics. Which is not to say that these fabrics don't have a place but none are adequate as shell protection in cold wet conditions and Paramo is.

Paramo waterproof clothing dries very fast, as I found when my trousers got wet on the river crossing described in the feature. If the outer becomes saturated then it needs reproofing. I certainly agree that getting into a sleeping bag in a wet Paramo jacket would not be a good idea. I have only once slept in a Paramo jacket and trousers and that was on a hut to hut ski tour in Norway where we failed to reach a hut due to a blizzard and high avalanche danger. I spent the night under a group shelter in a -10c/+14F sleeping bag and a bivi bag. The temperature fell to -25C/-13F and I needed all my clothes (and my pack under me as well as a foam pad). Sleeping in Paramo was not comfortable. The garments have too many chunky zips, drawcords and seams. I would only sleep in Paramo again if I absolutely had to (as on that occasion).

I wouldn't wear a wet fleece or synthetic or down filled jacket in a sleeping bag, all of which could freeze at night if wet. With Paramo I would put it on in the morning and expect it to thaw out and dry quickly once I started moving. As it is, if Paramp is damp it's usually above freezing and I keep it on until it's dry or mostly dry.

I have no idea why no American company has taken up this idea.

As to the aesthetics, that's subjective! Personally, I don't like the look of the Gamma MX, and I quite like some of the Paramo designs (but not all of them!).

Edited by Christownsend on 12/05/2008 05:30:51 MST.

Michael - Not being expert in the way the whole system works I can't be 100% sure of my answer; but in principal I see no reason at all why a liner jacket wouldn't work perfectly well with any outer layer that was capable of slowing a raindrop sufficiently to prevent an aerosol that would penetrate the liner (i.e. something windproof).

From what I hear of the new Paramo offering (based on my idea perhaps? I've not asked them. And I made it public domain so I'm not worried if it is - only pleased :) they plan to have a range of outer shells which I assume will offer more than simply colour changes. I assume it will be fit, weight, features. But I also expect the shells will all share the basic feature of slowing the rain drop velocity sufficiently.

> Why isn’t any American company using this?

I don't know but can only imagine that it's such a bizarre concept that no one has bothered to look past the oddity of it to see if it really works. It appears to me to have taken longer to get "traction" in its home market than its performance deserves.

But also I think your next question has some bearing on this:

> Why are the designs so darn ugly?

I just don't know!

Though to be fair, although the older designs are horrible - the newer stuff is looking far more technical.

One thing that's not been mentioned is that it seems more and more Mountain Rescue teams in the UK are choosing Paramo as their main kit. I know Cioch (who make their own jackets from Paramo's materials) have supplied a second set to the Cairngorm MRT for example. And they cover one of the very toughest areas in the UK with true Arctic conditions over the winter.

Edited by RedYeti on 12/05/2008 05:39:05 MST.

Thank you for the great replies Chris and David- I think I'm sold...

Your comments about using a separate liner and outer are interesting as I've tested a wide variety of fabrics in just this configuration. However, none of them work quite as well as the construction of the "pump liner" and it is much easier to damage or contaminate the DWR on the inner garment when it's not protected by the outer.

As far as drying is concerned, I tend to sit around in the wet kit, cooking and drinking and wearing it dry. It dries much faster than any membrane garment. I then find it's quite comfortable to sleep in - I always do on Alpine bivis, to save weight.

The wetting of the outer can actually help in the way that these systems work, because water likes to stick to water and thus gets drawn out of the system. Even a cold outer fabric can dry in the wind. This is a big difference with any membrane clothing system (softshell or hardshell) which can't pass liquid water/condensation outwards.

That said, any garment system feels colder when wet. In case you are interested, here are some simple calculations on waterchill in insulation:
http://furtech.typepad.com/furtech/2007/12/humidity-and-in.html

I wonder if the reason for a lack of interest in this system among American companies is due to the low hydrostatic head and the risk of litigation when a manufacturer claims something is waterproof?
With these systems it is possible to get wet. But then I've been wet in many waterproofs that were guaranteed to keep me dry... and been drier in Paramo / FurTech than friends wearing just such hardshells in exactly the same conditions!

If you're ever going to try Paramo, now is the time. I was looking to try it last year but a 2.1 - 2.2 exchange rate with the dollar meant £150 = $300+. With the exchange rate dropping under 1.5:1 at times, £150 is $225. If you want to save more, find the online sites that don't charge VAT (15%+ tax!) to customers in the U.S.

Question: you said the Aspira smock was short--it looks like a long jacket in your photo. How much longer is the Aspira jacket than the smock?

If you like the fabric, also check out:

www.cioch-direct.co.uk - they use the Paramo fabric in custom made jackets. They are very helpful and I've heard great things about their customer support. I've been eying the Glamaig for a while. A lot of tall, athletic builds on this site complain a lot about sizing--this is the place to go.

www.furtech.co.uk - fabric that works just like Paramo. In addition, great customer service and very helpful. New pants this year got great reviews at www.outdoorsmagic.com. Make sure to check the sizing info before ordering!

www.finisterreuk.com - again, great guys that will help and answer every question you have. By far the best looking Paramo jackets. The Storm Track is pretty much perfection if you have the dough to spend. Now that they have XXL, my 6'4 frame will fit (sizing is slimmer than regular)

Peter, the Aspira Smock measures 28 inches/71cms from shoulder to hem at the front in the medium size. I don't have an Aspira Jacket so I can't give you the length of that.

I've slept in Paramo a few times, but all in Colorado's cold, dry winter, in my homemade 15 degree down quilt pushed into winter use with lots of clothing. So of course the jacket was dry when getting in the sleeping bag.

No idea why this isn't known in the US. Why doesn't Paramo distribute over here? They had one distributer here a couple years ago, where I got mine, but now none.
Maybe they just want to keep us in the dark ages.


Or maybe American companies don't want to sell their customers a jacket that works so well and lasts so long that you don't have to buy another one!

Chris,
Could you tell us all of the clothing that you were wearing in the -35 C conditions? How comfortable were you? Did you use a belay jacket during periods of inactivity?

Chris,
Could you tell us all of the clothing that you were wearing in the -35 C conditions? How comfortable were you? Did you use a belay jacket during periods of inactivity?

Martin,

I've worn Paramo in -35C temperatures on several occasions and have always worn a lightweight base layer (synthetic before merino wool appeared then merino wool) and a thin fleece or fleece equivalent (Polartec 100, Power Stretch) underneath plus a fleece hat, liner gloves and insulated gloves or mitts. When moving that has been adequate to keep me comfortable without overheating - indeed on long climbs in still air I've needed to remove the fleece layer. When stationary for more than a few minutes it definitely isn't and I've always carried a down jacket, most recently the Rab Neutrino Endurance.

I've appended a list of all the clothing I had in 2006 in Yellowstone when we skied in temperatures below -20C a few times and were outside in -35 one evening. When skiing the temperatures were coldest early in the day so I started out with the Primaloft Vest over the Paramo jacket, Power Stretch jacket and Smartwool Zip T. By the middle of the day I was usually only wearing the Paramo and the Smartwool.
Outside the igloo at -35 I was wearing all those clothes with the down jacket on top.


Yellowstone January 06 clothing

Paramo Aspira Smock
Paramo Alta Trousers
Rab Neutrino Endurance down jacket
Berghaus Primaloft Insulated vest
Lowe Alpine Powerstretch Jacket
Smartwool Lightweight long johns
Smartwool Lightweight Zip-T
Outdoor Designs WindPro hat
Lowe Alpine Mountain Cap
Buff
Royal Robbins Coolmax Extreme Expedition Cap
Rab Phantom Grip gloves
Extremities Primaloft mitts
Black Diamond Shell Gloves with Pile liners
Smartwool Expedition Socks x 2
Smartwool Boxer Shorts
Rab down bootees

From the description of how the inner 'pump liner' works, would it make any sense to produce a sock made from this stuff, albeit perhaps with a wicking inner to distribute moisture better.

Or would the pressure from a wet boot or trail shoe just overwhelm the 'pumping' action?

I guess that would be the case on the sole of the foot, but elsewhere?

How thick is the pump liner material?

I get wet elbows when I rest my weight on the wet pads of my aerobars when cycling. So it is quite easy to push water through the pump liner, so perhaps not pump liner under the foot.

Chris,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if one knew they were going to be dealing with sub-zero weather, Paramo type clothing probably wouldn't be the optimum choice, would it?

Since it would certainly be dry but cold, I would choose the lightest weight to warmth ratio of clothing.

Whereas, Paramo sounds like a spectacular choice in mixed freezing/thawing/wet conditions where the clothing does many things well and can substitute for several other garments, justifying it's somewhat heavy weight.

Is this a reasonable assessment?

Michael,

I think Paramo is the optimum choice when moving in sub-zero weather if there is likely to be any wind. That does make a significant difference. In windless conditions I've hiked in a fleece top and been warm but even a slight breeze cuts straight through and chills you. I like Paramo because it is so breathable whilst being windproof. I don't know of anything with a better warmth to weight ratio that performs as well in cold, windy weather. If I was forest hiking and not expecting any wind a windshirt and light fleece might be adequate and would weigh less.

When stationary in sub zero weather down clothing is the optimum choice of course. It's far superior to anything else.

By the way. is that sub zero Fahrenheit (-17.8 Celsius) or sub zero Celsius?

Edited by Christownsend on 12/08/2008 15:51:29 MST.

Simon,

As Derek says the pump liner compresses quite easily. It's only a few millimeters thick. It wouldn't make good socks.

In cold and damp conditions Paramo really isn't heavy. As Chris says you wear it when you know that you will be wearing it all day. Bulk is more of a problem with packing than weight.

I have worn Paramo on the TGO Challenge. I've also walked the Challenge with a conventional layer system and the comparison is interesting.

On my last Challenge I wore a three layer solution. I used a thin baselayer, a Montane Kinetic top and a Montane Quickfire Event jacket. I think I also carried a Montane windshirt. These are all pretty light pieces of kit for their performance.

By contrast on my first Challenge I used a Paramo Velez jacket. This was worn over the same baselayer but I didn't carry a mid layer or windshirt (the Paramo does both jobs).

There was little weight difference between the two systems, with the Paramo version an ounce or two lighter.

As Chris has said Scottish weather is a little unpredictable. On the Paramo Challenge I had a warn first day. The Velez was simply strapped on the top of the pack. I think the next 12 days were spent wearing the jacket - as Chris says the venting is very good.

On my second Challenge the weather was better and the Velez would have been off more. But these smaller Paramo jackets can easily be carried, and there's no overall weight gain.

In many ways Paramo is more convenient because it is designed not to be taken off, i.e. you regulate temperature using the venting systems.

Next year I'll probably be walking across Scotland using the 3rd Element Jacket, which can be stripped down to for a gilet.

Paramo waterproofs are not for warm climates. But in cool and wet weather there is nothing more comfortable!

>By the way. is that sub zero Fahrenheit (-17.8 Celsius) or sub zero Celsius?

I assume it's just "below freezing"...

If I had a Paramo jacket I would no doubt enjoy putting it through it's paces. I am unlikely to ever do something like the TGO challenge, but hey sound like ideal jackets for skiing and boarding!

Chris, there was a question posted about fit: whether the jackets/smocks should be trim or loose. I couldn't see an answer in the discussion. Could you comment please? I'm on the verge of going for the Velez smock, and either XL or XXL would seem suitable as I'm quite tall, so I'd like to know your thoughts if possible.

Paramo tends to be quite roomy. In the UK it has the reputation of being overtly baggy, but I s'pose the best thing is to try it on before ordering.
In my opinion, the tightness of the coat is only relevant in what you want to put under it. i.e. the Aspira is more roomy than the Velez because it is supposed to be used in colder conditions with more layers underneath.

In the UK we also have Furtech and Cioch which use the same fabric but can offer different cuts and features - Cioch is also made to measure.

Hope that helps.

Simon, it doesn't make any difference to the performance whether Paramo garments are close-fitting or loose fitting. As Ian says it depends on what you want to wear under them. I like garments big enough to wear a microfleece and a a base layer underneath.