Kid and Dad are a handful
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Sam Hosney
(SamHosney) - F
Kid and Dad are a handful on 11/27/2008 21:02:45 MST Print View

Hi,
do any of you Scouters out there have any experience taking Scouts to Philmont that are 'a handful' to work with?

All the adults on our 2009 trek are trying to determine if we're willing to be responsible for a Scout who is by a nice description, is at least a handful, but more like his dad.

The Scout is not usually bad, but has a very short patience, quick temper, often a bully and has a history in our troop of disruption.

The adults going were not aware he was going until yesterday, and I'm not sure any of the 3 of us are that willing to deal with him for 2 weeks (trip out and back inclusive).

What are our options if we get there and he decides it's going to be his way? (a common event) Can we refuse to take him now? We don't have a lawyer in the troop, and can't really afford one.

He's already paid his money in full, his dad is an attorney and a major league A$$HOLE, and is telling us we have to take him and he will be responsible for him. He apparently is also a little / lot ADD / ADHD / ???

Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Sam

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Kid and Dad are a handful on 11/27/2008 21:51:16 MST Print View

Scouts: volunteer group. Rather hard to sue!

Anyhow, if you are stuck with the kid, run him off his legs! Who knows - away from Dad and having to meet your standards, he might be OK.

Cheers

Glenn Roberts
(garkjr) - F

Locale: Southwestern Ohio
Just say no on 11/27/2008 21:59:07 MST Print View

How is dad going to "be responsible for him" if he's not there? (Or are you stuck with dad, too?)

I'm not a lawyer, so this isn't legal advice. Quite honestly, with 20/20 hindsight as a former Scoutmaster, I'd say stick to your guns, and if dad forces the issue, cancel the trip. Yes, it's sad that one kid can ruin it for everyone - but he's going to ruin it if he goes, too.

This is a "big" trip, that I assume costs a lot of money. It would be a shame to waste the time and money on a trip where there's a good chance that you won't be able to enjoy yourselves.

The worst dad can do is coerce the troop committee into firing you - and life's too short, with too many good hikes, to put up with this guy's crap. I once had a father who pulled that stunt on me; he backed down when I offered to let him have the job.

Stick to your guns.

Bob Bankhead
(wandering_bob) - MLife

Locale: Oregon, USA
Kid and Dad are a handful on 11/27/2008 22:31:48 MST Print View

Yes, you can refuse to take him before you go. Once the trip starts, you're stuck with him, and you are legally responsible for him.

Adult scouting is a volunteer leadership position. You are under NO legal obligation to take anyone anywhere. If the adults are not comfortable having him on the trip, try telling his Dad this and that the only way the kid goes is if Dad goes along to supervise him - think of it as bonding opportunity. If Dad refuses, just refund the kid's money and tell him he's out. If Dad complains, ask him to cite chapter and verse of the appropriate legal statute supporting his position.

I've had some experience doing this same thing with the Venture unit in the troop when my son was growing up. I organized and led 50 milers on the PCT every summer for several years.

Just in order to QUALIFY to go on the trip, everyone, child or adult - had to complete the 3-hike training plan AND have the correct gear. As the Venture ASM and the adult who was going to be legally responsible for the group on the trip, my definition of "qualified" was law. Don't like that? Don't go with us.

In 4 years, I never had a anyone lost, injured, or worse. One year I had to tell the Scoutmaster's son that he couldn't go because his demeanor and actions represented a potential safety hazard for the group. My predecessor had taken the boy on an earlier 50 miler on which this boy's indifference resulted in a severe case of hypothermia. He had not changed in the interim.

The night before we leave, everyone comes to my place for a full pack layout (minus food), Gear discrepancies are noted and the packs stay at my place. The morning of departure, all deficiencies had to be corrected or you didn't get in the vehicles.

One of the best lessons we as adults can teach these kids is personal responsibility. Setting limits and abiding by them is an acquired skill, and you learn this by watching. If the parents can't or won't provide it, we as volunteer leaders must. I too have had a Dad challenge my decisions, and he too backed down when faced with my offer to allow him to take over right then and there.

Edited by wandering_bob on 11/27/2008 22:38:36 MST.

Joe Clement
(skinewmexico) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
Handfuls on 11/27/2008 22:47:12 MST Print View

Another ASM and I told our scoutmaster that we wouldn't go on another trip if two kids who consistently caused problems went. He told the parents, they didn't go. You're in a bad place, so I don't really know what to tell you. It would probably do the kid a world of good to go, but it's not worth ruining it for everyone else.

Tad Englund
(bestbuilder) - F - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Kid and Dad are a handful on 11/28/2008 00:16:11 MST Print View

I think Bob is on the right track.
I would also talk with Philmont and see how they handle this situation and how they handle a boys who needs to be sent home early (I know they have dealt with this kind of thing before).
I would also talk to your District and Council, asking for there advise and direction. They will be able to help you with the Dad- especially the council.
My idea would be to set your ground rules and then use your pre-hikes as a proving ground (make the hikes tough). If he can't handle them, then he's out. I would make this the same for everyone.
BTW, I don't remember anyone having ADD/ADHD when I was a kid (or maybe I was the ADD/ADHD kid?)

Joe Clement
(skinewmexico) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
Kids on 11/28/2008 10:14:54 MST Print View

I think we all had ADD/ADHD as kids, but it was called being a boy back then.

Good advice on calling the Council. We have also made parents sign a form saying they will come get their kids if they become unmanageable.

Glenn Roberts
(garkjr) - F

Locale: Southwestern Ohio
re: Kids on 11/28/2008 19:19:09 MST Print View

I hope you never had this happen, but I've got to know:

It's all well and good that the parents signed a paper promising to come get their kid if he becomes unmanageable. But, what was your fall-back plan when you made the call, and the parent decided that you were over-reacting, that their kid had not become unmanageable, and that they weren't going to come get him?

Never had this happen at a Scout event, but had something similar happen at an after-Prom event my Rotary club put on. A girl showed up falling-down drunk. We called her parents to come take her home. Her dad came, talked to her a moment, and told us, "I've been in a lot worse shape than this; I'm not going to make her go home." We explained our next call would be to the police, since she was underage. Father and daughter got in his car and went home.

Edited by garkjr on 11/28/2008 22:40:22 MST.

paul buzzard
(troop208) - F
kid and dad on 12/01/2008 08:46:55 MST Print View

as an ASM for our troop, and 3 time Philmont attendee, (we went this year), I think you have excellent advise in the posts above. Our group was so good, (they knew each other and from the same troop), I really got to enjoy the interaction of scouts this trip. Was great for all.

However, one of our sister contingent crews was on the same itinerary as us, and they had a bad trip, due to boy interaction issues. There is so much invested in a trip like this, IMO you need to avoid it at all costs. It can ruin the trip for all, not something you could even want. I would offer talking to council and see if you can simply say no thanks to taking the boy unless his father goes, or something like that. Linking attendence to his parent, given the parent won't attend, would solve the scouts going. Not sure that can happen, but I would pursue that course first. That would be my choice as attending advisor. Problem solved before it gets started. But I am not sure this is "legal", given the boy is a legitimate member and has paid his money. I would work on not having him attend, rather than hoping it would work out. Good luck.

Joe Clement
(skinewmexico) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
Kid on 12/01/2008 09:42:49 MST Print View

Where I live, most parents still want their kids to behave, so the bluff works pretty well. And you're right, it's probably just a bluff.

Scott Bentz
(scottbentz) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Pre-Trip Hikes on 12/01/2008 16:20:18 MST Print View

I would hate to have a kid that is unmanageable on a trip like this. We all know boys will be boys and that's what is fun sometimes. But if a kid is going to stink up the trip for someone else it could make for a LONG 2 weeks. I would use the advice above.

Talk to the council first. If you feel he needs to stay on the trip do what others have suggested. Make strict rules for pre-trip hikes. Make them hard. Make the kids work together. Who knows, maybe the kid will respond well. You do have to be careful though with a seemingly litigious father. All boys must be judged by the same rules. What if one of the other boys that you like doesn't stack up?

We made it simple. We only took Eagle Scouts on our trip. They were older boys that we had made a lot of trips with. It was a joy. We just had to keep up.

John Myers
(dallas) - F - MLife

Locale: North Texas
Philmont on 12/02/2008 07:22:48 MST Print View

Sam,

Philmont is so special that everything possible should be done to make it a positive experience for those lucky enough to go.

The training/shakedown hike ideas are good. If those do not go well, just inform the dad that his son will not be going this year.

It is not fair to the other boys to have their Philmont trek ruined.

Our troop had a similiar issue several years ago and we learned the hard way that it's better to suck it up and deliver the bad news than it is to suffer a bad trek. We will not make that mistake again.

We shared '10 Rules of Expedition Behaviour' with our scouts this year. It is a humorous way to show what is necessary to work together as a group. It worked great. I'll e-mail it to you if you wish.

tkkn c
(tkknc) - MLife

Locale: Desert Rat in the Southwest
Kid and Dad are a Handful on 12/02/2008 16:59:45 MST Print View

This situation is a reason, why you need to set and enforce behavior standards on all hikes and outings. If you let the behavior problems slide on the short hikes and campouts you will have issues on longer trips. It might sound hardheaded, but I learned the hardway. 7 days in the wilderness with a behavior issue is unpleasent at best, and could be a safety hazard. The Scouts are suppose to live by the Scout Law and Oath. I try and get the Scouts to police themselves. It works even better when other Scouts remind the mis-behaving Scout that they are not living the 12 points points of the Scout Law.

At the same time Scouts need to be Scouts and have fun or they will not enjoy the outings.

Joe Clement
(skinewmexico) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
10 Rules on 12/02/2008 17:21:12 MST Print View

I'd like a copy of those rules please...

Mike Barney
(eaglemb) - F

Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
John, Can you post the 10 rules? on 12/02/2008 18:43:48 MST Print View

John, Can you post the 10 rules?

John Myers
(dallas) - F - MLife

Locale: North Texas
10 Rules For Expedition Behavior on 12/02/2008 18:51:37 MST Print View

Expedition Behavior
The Finer Points
Howard Tomb
A good expedition team is like a powerful, well-oiled, finely tuned marriage. Members cook meals together, carry burdens together and face challenges together.
A bad expedition, on the other hand, is an awkward, ugly, embarrassing thing characterized by bickering, filth, frustration and burned food.
Nearly all bad expeditions have one thing in common: poor expedition behavior (EB). This is true even if team members follow the stated rules, such as Don’t Step on the Rope, Kerosene and Food, No Soap in the River, No Raccoons in the Tent, Keep your Ice Axe Out of My Eye, etc.
Unfortunately, too many rules of expedition behavior remain unspoken. Some leaders seem to assume that their team members already have strong and generous characters like their own. But judging from a few of the campers we’ve encountered, more rules ought to be spelled out. Here are ten of them.

RULE #1 Get out of bed.
Suppose your tentmates get up early to fetch water and fire up the stove while you lie comatose in your sleeping bag. As they run an extensive equipment check, pack gear and fix your breakfast, they hear you start to snore. Last night you were their buddy; now they’re drawing up list of things about you that make them want to spit. They will devise cruel punishments for you. You have earned them. The team concept is now defunct. Had you gotten out of bed, nobody would have had to suffer.

RULE #2 Do not be cheerful before breakfast.
Some people wake up perky and happy as fluffy bunny rabbits. They put stress on those who wake up mean as rabid wolverines. Exhortations such as “Rise and shine, sugar!” and “Greet the dawn, pumkin!” have been known to provoke pungent words from rabid wolverine types. These curses, in turn, may offend fluffy bunny types. Indeed, they are issued with the sincere intent to offend. Thus, the day begins with flying fur and hurt feelings. The best early morning behavior is simple: Be quiet.

RULE #3 Do not complain.
About anything. Ever. It’s ten below zero, visibility is four inches and wind driven hailstones are embedding themselves in your face like shotgun pellets. Must you mention it? Do you think your friends haven’t noticed the weather? Make a suggestion. Tell a joke. Lead a prayer. Do NOT lodge a complaint! Your pack weighs 87 pounds and your cheap backpack straps are – surprise!, surprise!, - cutting into your flesh. Were you promised a personal sherpa? Did somebody cheat you out of a mule team? If you can’t carry your weight, get a motorhome.

RULE #4 Learn to cook at least one thing right.
One expedition trick is so old that it is no longer amusing: on the first cooking assignment, the clever cook prepares a dish that resembles, say, Burnt Socks in Toxic Waste Sauce. The cook hopes to be relieved permanently from cooking duties. This is the childish approach to a problem that’s been with us since people first started throwing dead lizards on the fire. Tricks are not a part of a team spirit. If you don’t like to cook, say so. Offer to wash dishes and prepare the one thing you do know how to cook. Even if it’s only tea. Remember that talented camp cooks sometimes get invited to join major expeditions in Nepal, all expenses paid.

RULE #5 Either A) Shampoo, or B) Do not remove your hat for any reason.
After a week or so on the trail, without shampooing, hair forms angry little clumps and wads. These leave the person beneath looking like an escapee from a mental ward. Such and appearance could shake a team’s confidence in your judgment. If you can’t shampoo, pull a wool hat down over your ears and leave it there, night and day, for the entire expedition.

RULE #6 Do not ask if anybody’s seen your stuff.
Experienced adventures have systems for organizing their gear. They very rarely leave it strewn around camp or lying back on the trail. One of the worst things you can do is ask your teammate if they’ve seen the tent poles you thought you packed 20 miles ago. Even in the unlikely event you get home alive, you will not be invited on the next trip. Should you ever leave the tent poles 20 miles away, do not ask if anybody’s seem them. Simply announce, with a good-natured chuckle, that you are about to set off in the dark on a 40 mile hike to retrieve them, and that you are sorry. It’s unprofessional to lose your spoon or your toothbrush. If something like that happens, don’t mention it to anyone.

RULE #7 Never ask where you are.
If you want to know where you are, look at the map. Try to figure it out yourself. If you’re still confused, feel free to discuss the identity of landmarks around you and how they correspond to the cartography. If you A) suspect that a mistake has been made; and B) have experience in interpreting topographical maps, and C) are certain that your group leader is wrong, speak up. Otherwise, follow the group like a sheep.

RULE #8 Always carry more than your fair share.
When the trip is over, would you rather be remembered as a rock or a sissy? Keep in mind that a pound or two of extra weight in your pack won’t make your back hurt any more than it already does. In any given group of flatlanders, somebody is bound to bicker about your weight. When an argument begins, take the extra weight yourself. Then shake your head and gaze with pity upon the slothful one. This is the mature response to childish behavior.

RULE # 9 Do not get sunburned.
Sunburn is not only painful and unattractive, it’s also an obvious sign of inexperience. Most green horns wait too long before applying sunscreen. Once you’ve burned on an expedition, you may not have a chance to get out of the sun. Then the burn gets burned, skin peels away, blisters sprout on the already swollen lips. Anyway, you get the idea. Wear zinc oxide. You can see exactly where and how thickly it’s applied and it gives you just about 100% protection. It does get on your sunglasses, all over your clothes and in your mouth. But that’s OK. Unlike sunshine, zinc oxide is non-toxic.

RULE #10 Do not get killed.
Suppose you make the summit of K2 solo and carrying the complete works of Hemingway in hardcover. Pretty macho, huh? Suppose now that you take a vertical detour down a crevasse and never make it back to camp. Would you still qualify as a hero? And would it matter? Nobody’s going to run any fingers through your new chest hair. The worst thing to have on your outdoor resume is the list of the possible locations of your body.

All expedition behavior really flows from this one principle: Think of your team, the beautiful machine, first. You are merely a cog in that machine. If you have something to prove, forget about joining an expedition. Your team will never have more than one member.

Phil Barton
(flyfast) - MLife

Locale: Oklahoma
Re: Kid and Dad are a handful on 12/03/2008 13:18:49 MST Print View

Sam, I have some thoughts and experiences for you. Can you please send me your email in a PM?
Thanks,
Phil

Devin Montgomery
(dsmontgomery) - MLife

Locale: one snowball away from big trouble
Re: 10 Rules For Expedition Behavior on 12/04/2008 10:32:48 MST Print View

Thanks for sharing John! That's brilliant and absolutely right-on!

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: 10 Rules For Expedition Behavior on 12/04/2008 13:54:56 MST Print View

> RULE #5 Either A) Shampoo, or B) Do not remove your hat for any reason.
> After a week or so on the trail, without shampooing, hair forms angry little clumps and wads.

I must say this one seems a little out of place compared with the others! Could I suggest at least option C) Carry and use a comb each day?

Cheers

Mike Clelland
(mikeclelland) - MLife

Locale: The Tetons (via Idaho)
A comb??? on 12/04/2008 16:47:17 MST Print View

What?!?!

A comb????

(note my self portrait)

David Irvin
(kybrent) - F

Locale: Central Kentucky
Litigious Dad and kid on 12/04/2008 17:58:17 MST Print View

I think the advice listed above is excellent. Checking with your council and Philmont is a great idea. I think your troop committee could make the decision. I offer my advice from the perspective as a lawyer and as an ASM. First, it is admirable that the BSA and councils promote accommodating disabled scouts. This is a good policy. Sometimes scouting can turn around a kid with a bad home life, and scout leaders who can make a difference in a kid's life are to be commended. However, a kid that persistently misbehaves and makes no effort to follow the rules is a different matter. This creates a safety issue for the other scouts and and the "handful" kid himself. Adult volunteers are more likely to be successfully sued for an injury to a scout than for making a hard decision denying a kid the privilege of attending a high adventure trip because of behavior or fitness issues--if reasonable leaders would have known it was unsafe. That would be a jury issue. However, as a legal matter, I don't see what grounds the Dad could assert to claim his son had a "right" to go on your trip. I can't offer specific legal advice and laws vary in different states but the BSA is a volunteer organization--not a business. If the scout and his lawyer Dad are unwilling to comply with the troop committee's decision, I'd politely invite him to join another troop.

Chris Lowe
(TNChris) - F

Locale: North Carolina
Too much work for a volunteer position on 12/04/2008 20:19:54 MST Print View

It is unfortunate that this sort of thing comes up when you are just trying to have fun with some kids and teach them to enjoy the outdoors. I would have to agree with the above in that I would find it hard to believe you are legally obligated to take this little brat anywhere. His dad is clearly using his status to attempt to intimidate you, but he wouldn't waste him time attempting to sue your scout troop over not allowing his son to attend a trip. Even if he does, you shouldn't have any problem showing that he has exhibited bad behavior on previous trips and you saw him as a liability. The time to get sued is when you take the ill-behaved kid with super-lawyer a-hole dad on a trip and he gets hurt. That's when he starts suing folks.

Two things:

1. If he decides to sue you, he will be suing BSA (not you) and they can find better lawyers than he is

2. Have you ever heard of someone suing a company that leads mountaineering expeditions for deciding to leave them behind or not allowing them to continue on the trip they paid for when it is decided they have become a liability? NO. And they don't even get their money back.

Give the dad his money back and tell him if his son can prove to the troop on shorter trips that he is capable of getting along with everyone then he will be allowed to go next time.

Mike Barney
(eaglemb) - F

Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
Volunteers = Volunteers on 12/06/2008 11:56:40 MST Print View

Our troop has been through this three times that I can remember. My understanding is that volunteers are volunteers, and are not required to catheterize kids, wipe their butts or put up with their crap, bullying or disruption (or that from their parents) regardless of the organization. (:->) Rumor has it California may have rules to the contrary.


1) One parent repetitively told us if we didn't advance her kid, that she would pull him out.... Haven't seen her in a couple of years. It's not about not wanting to help, it's about helping the most you can.


2) We had an uber ADHD kid at summer camp who was also vocally abusive. The second year we asked one of the (totally pain in the a$$) parents to come provide oversight. The parent came, found it was too much trouble, suggested one of the older kids (who paid to come work on merit badges) could take care of his kid, then the parent left for the Casino for the last 3 days… The next year, the parent was required to be there the whole time, but declined, noting we should be willing to take care of his kid on our vacation.


3) The last one was last year at Philmont. We asked parents what we needed to know about their kids before going, noting really revealing. One of the 17 yr old kids was ADHD, psychotic and Aspersers. Not a bad kid when he took his meds. He quit taking the meds, got violent, complaining about everything, refused to p00p (at least for a few days… then biophysics took over in the middle of the trail to Beaubien:) making it a very ‘memorable trip’ for all. We took a satphone, and called his parents who went to Hawaii for 2 weeks. They swore he was taking his meds, so we should spend more time with him, spend half an hour each morning on what the schedule was for the day, then intermediate discussions through the day. Turns out the kid hid his meds. As a result for 2009, we’ve had an attorney come up with a document that basically lays out what our rules are: We want everyone to have the incredible experience that Philmont can be, and not have to deal with parents looking for a “Baby Sitter of America”. If the adults decide he's not cutting it, he's coming back on your nickel, no questions asked. I don't mean to sound callous, but you have to make a choice: Do you want to do the most good for the most or babysit for a kid who may need help, but their parents need more?


I can’t help the most kids if I’m having to deal with one who probably shouldn’t be there. If you’re not comfortable with a particular trekker, then I would have no problem not taking responsibility for them.

Edited by eaglemb on 12/06/2008 13:59:53 MST.

Kara Stevens
(kstevens) - F
Re: Kid and Dad are a handful on 12/06/2008 18:29:38 MST Print View

I used to be a Philmont Ranger. I was there for four summers and from the sounds of this great forum, things haven't changed too much. I work closely with teens still and am active in the outdoors. You have a definite challenge with this kid. Here's the bottom line: will he ever present a danger to anyone's safety, including his own? I know its not good press, but there have been a few deaths over the last number of decades at Philmont. Not many, and due to various reasons.

Wild animals, being lost, weather, medical issues, dehydration - alone each is a pain or a slight difficulty for the crew. Together these things present great danger to participants. Philmont, Rangers, and the Backcountry Staff are all VERY serious about safety. If he has to have things his way, then he presents a danger. There are far too many situations in the outdoors - even in the "luxury" of Philmont - where everyone HAS to be able to be part of the team. If he doesn't get his way, will he walk off? There are just too many ways he can exert power and control over the entire crew and get his way. If the other guys are having a bad time due to him, then he wins. Can you imagine an entire search and rescue happening due to him? That's quite the power trip for a teen like that. It will most definitely put a crimp in the trip for the entire crew.

Seriously, the adults need to group together and approach the father together. The ONLY way he can be responsible for his son's behavior is if he is along on the trek. Then again, does dad just enable the son? Maybe you don't want either one.

So here's the other side: If you think the kid might actually grow from this experience, not give everyone a hugely horrible time, then the other kids will benefit by learning tolerance, he will mature, and a good time can be had by all.

Overall though, Philmont is by far NOT Disney Land. Not everyone comes out of there with smiles. Many go home dissappointed due to various reasons. Far more go home having had the most incredible time ever - and all of the great times center around very hard work and being part of a team. The best trips happen with the best planning and solid people on the trek. You have to ask yourself what you want to accomplish from this trip. I know the rest of the boys have worked hard for the money to go, have put in countless hours in planning and training, and are really looking forward to the trip.

Good luck with this one. Not fun and not easy.

Edited by kstevens on 12/06/2008 18:49:04 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Volunteers = Volunteers on 12/06/2008 18:33:01 MST Print View

> One parent repetitively told us if we didn't advance her kid, that she would pull him out....

I seem to get the impression from much of this that the kid is NOT the source of the problem - rather it is the parent who has created the problem, often by being a lousy parent.
If so, poor kid.
Comment?

Cheers

Mike Barney
(eaglemb) - F

Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
Re: Re: Volunteers = Volunteers on 12/06/2008 20:15:52 MST Print View

You're right Roger, except for example # 2 above, I can't think of a specific incident where the kid was a root problem.


Actually, the kid you reference was one of the best behaved kids I've ever met, and he needed the program more than most kids, in part (IMHO) because of his mom.


I've been with this troop for 10 years and seen 100+ kids go through. 95% of the kids were great, and watching them grow up is clearly worth the time investment. 90% of the parents same thing. Unfortunately, some parents want it their way but are not willing to help. About 2% are willing to be a 'hole' about it. As Roger notes, it's not the kids.


After being threatened with ADA, "going to Council" legal action et al, we've taken a 'don't let the door hit you in the a$$' for past and future 2%'ers, including providing those parents with a list of other troops in the area.

It's a great program, and am very proud to have been associated with it. The kids make it memorable and totally worthwhile. The 2% make me thankful for the 90%, but unfortunately, the kids of the 2% are the ones that lose out.

Roger Tate
(rogertate) - F

Locale: North Texas
Another couple of ideas/thoughts on 02/26/2009 14:27:09 MST Print View

As Scouter and a father of a boy with Aspergers I see more than one side to this problem. It can be hard to tell the difference between a spoiled brat and a kid with a real developmental disorder. Not every parent will disclose that their kid has a problem. That doesn't obligate a scout leader to diagnose a kid or to put up with bad behavior, but I hope we will think before assuming things about a kid.

I would suggest a couple of things as possible solutions.

If you hope to salvage the situation, you could require the Dad to come along on a shakedown hike. You'll get to see if the kid behaves better when Dad is around and if there is any point to trying to take Dad to Philmont. The Dad will also get a first-hand taste of what you are preparing for and why the Crew has to be cohesive.

If your gut is telling you to pull the plug, don't make the decision all by yourself. If it is the right decision, make the decision as a group with the SM, ASMs, and Troop Committee in agreement. Then present the decision as a group to the Dad.

Now, going into the future, take a fresh look at your Troop's Code of Conduct. Your committee may want to add language regarding high adventure/long range outings where the threat of sending a kid home isn't viable. It's OK to set a higher bar for these events for safety management reasons. If the boys don't get along on a routine outing, the added physical and mental stress of a high adventure outing will make it worse not better, and they must depend on each other to be safe.

Floyd Wrich
(woodstosea) - F
Kids and Dad are a handful on 03/28/2009 12:12:00 MDT Print View

If you have trouble with the boy on regular weekend camp outs and the other adult members of your Philmont crew would rather stay home then go with him you would be CRAZY and irresponsible towards all the rest of your crew to take him. You missed the point with both the "Father and his son, Implied with the threat to sue you is the attitude of screw you, were the ones who are the most important here. Don't you realize at this point the boy knows his Dad has threaten you! If you give in what will you do when (as I'm sure will happen)during the trek he tells you what he wants and that you better do it or his Dad will sue! The situation might be different if the Father acknowledged the problems you faced with his son and asked what he could do to help,and with the understanding that if the situation/behavior doesn't improve his son can't go. But that doesn't sound like what happened. The Philmont handbook states (paraphrase) if the boyscout has "behavior" problems prior to philmont those behaviors tend to become worse over the trek not better. Please don't get me wrong as a ASM I along with all the other adult leaders in our troop are willing to work with any boy who shows even the smallest desire to be a scout and participate with the troop. What we won't do is bend over and kiss you know what to appease any parent and/or boy. Once you have been threaten you have only two choices, give in or call his bluff, either way its time to show them the door. If you give in every scout will know and the troop will then become all about that one "scout" and his Dad. You and the other adults will have given up your authority. Which in the end is my guess of what they really want.
Please don't leave us hanging, let us know what the outcome is. Good Luck




































'

JASON CUZZETTO
(cuzzettj) - MLife

Locale: NorCal - South Bay
RE: "Kid and Dad are a handful" on 03/28/2009 13:22:22 MDT Print View

This is a pretty simple one. First, contact your Profesional Scouter assigned to your unit. Say you want a meeting with him and one of the Execs. Have them meet with you and the other leaders/parents for the trip.
If things aren't looking good have these things ready:

1. A list of other troops to try in the area.
2. A refund for Philmont.
3. A refund for his yearly dues. It's easier.
---Seperate checks with notes as to what they are for.

Philmont is a treat. He would be lucky to go. Why on Earth would you even concider taking this kid if you can't get him to chill out and listen. Volunteering is fun, challenging and one of the best things you can do for yourself and the kids. You can't let them get away with anything that doesn't follow the Scout Oath and Law, The older Scouts should be enforcing this and you should only have to worry about guiding the older Scouts in their leadership roles and decision making. If this isn't happening then this boy is to much to deal with. He has to respect his peers. They are his leadership.

Personally as soon as the dad said something about sueing I think the Council should know immediately and they can talk to him about his issues and concerns. They need to back you up. That is what the insurance is for. That is why they are your organization. If you do it right and follow the basic guidelines this shouldn't be such an issue.

Heck with this dad.

Luymes Ted
(start2day)

Locale: So Cal.
How I'd deal with it... on 03/29/2009 23:38:53 MDT Print View

Sam,

I'm an attorney. I deal with difficult people all the time. If your leadership is not comfortable handling this scout at Philmont, you must sit down with the dad right away and tell him so. Politely explain why, refund their money, and leave. If dad threatens to sue, tell him to go ahead.

He won't sue because you've done nothing actionable. With any luck, they'll leave the troop and be a burden on someone else.

Ted

J R
(jsreuther@yahoo.com) - F
Re: Kid and Dad are a handful on 03/31/2009 15:32:18 MDT Print View

In our Troop, if a Scout does not live and show others his "Scout Spirit" he does not advance or go on outings. We are VERY up front about this.

Thomas Hood
(mustangpwr98) - F
my thoughts. on 04/01/2009 08:41:50 MDT Print View

Its a hard situation to be in for sure. i was an eagle and went to philmont in 2000. My troop kicked a kid out while i was in scouts because he caused nothing but trouble. They actually had the troop committee and chartering org write a letter that banned him from all activities except meetings and he kinda got the message and left.

Scouts is an organization that teaches kids life skills and how to be responsible adults. However it is not a behavior boot camp or an organization for kids that really should be with professional help.

My scoutmaster would not have probably been able to exist with today's pansy parents. You got out of line and he had no problem ripping your butt. There was a fight or something along those lines and he would get in the middle and drag both of you away by your shirt collars,,, how times have changed.

My recommendation would be to try to work the situation out, but by no means would I take him if he was that much trouble. You are adults giving your time to further the enjoyment of the scouts and to provide positive role models of what young men should grow up to be. Not babysitters.

Edited by mustangpwr98 on 04/01/2009 09:06:52 MDT.

Rich Bowman
(rbowman) - F

Locale: Houston
Re: Kid and Dad are a handful on 05/02/2009 11:31:18 MDT Print View

As an advisor, you primary function is to ensure the health and safety of everyone in your crew. Other than that, the boys run the show. If the behavior / attitude of this one boy will create a threat to the health and safety of your crew, you must act.

IMHO the best way to determine if he will present a threat is to observe him during pre-trek hikes and shakedown trips. (You should have several of these.) If he can handle these outings, fine. If not, then sit down with him and his dad and explain what happened, that his actions are not acceptable, and give them a refund.

The sooner you have this discussion, the better. I've seen boys change their attitude and improve their behavior as a result of one of these discussions - and be able to go on a trek as a result. On the other hand, I've had boys realize that they were not mentally or physically ready for Philmont after a challenging shakedown trip and bow out gracefully.

Remember, even "good" boys can be a handlful when they are tired/hungry/sore - in other words about day 4-5.

Good Luck,

--Rich
'01 617H2, '05 702J '08 628O

rhonda rouyer
(rrouyer) - F

Locale: deep south
philmont behavior on 04/26/2010 23:30:21 MDT Print View

As a former Scouter who took two crews to Philmont, I just want to add to all the good advice ,that going to Philmont is a PRIVILEGE not a right! If this child is one who can ruin the experience for the crew then you need to "man up" and tell dad that the son can't attend until behavior changes. Or...he only comes if Dad attends and takes full responsibilty for the child, get it in writing.

Robert Blean
(blean) - MLife

Locale: San Jose -- too far from Sierras
Re: Kid and Dad are a handful on 04/27/2010 00:24:31 MDT Print View

He's already paid his money in full, his dad is an attorney and a major league A$$HOLE, and is telling us we have to take him and he will be responsible for him.

I'd be interested in two things:

1) Precisely why does the dad think you have to take his son?

2) Precisely how does the dad propose to be responsible for his son? It does not seem to me that he can effectively do so remotely. He certainly hasn't in the past.

If the dad does threaten you, I'd be tempted to refuse the kid based on that alone -- otherwise it looks as if you are giving in to his threat. (Emotional reaction and potentially unfair to the kid, I know, but that's the way I feel about it.)

Be careful what you ask for .... Do you want the dad to come on the trip? Is he qualified to do so? You state that he is "a major league A$$HOLE". Do you really want to insist that someone like that come on your trip? How will your trip go if he agrees?

--MV

Bob Shaver
(rshaver) - F

Locale: West
Sent home from Europe trip on 04/30/2010 16:31:01 MDT Print View

We had a kid, the scoutmasters son, who was known for being a handful, or knucklehead as I have sometimes heard it called. Our troop went to the BSA hiking hostel in Konderstag Austria. I was not on the trip, or in the troop at that time, but I heard he and some other boys were egging each other on to more and more unruly behavior, and at some point streaked through a cave on a public hiking trail, or something like that. They took movies of each other doing it, so the evidence was there.

One kid of the bad boys was sent home - from Europe, at his Dad's expense. I don't know the mechanics of how that was accomplished, but I bet the Dad was very angry.

Several people have mentioned their troops requirements for high adventure trip participation, like 3 shakedown trips. I would really like to see those policies, as I am supposed to formulate our troops policies. If you have them, send to shaverlaw@gmail.com. Thanks!

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Sent home from Europe trip on 04/30/2010 19:49:49 MDT Print View

"Dad was very angry."

Hopefully angry at his kid and not the scouts -- that is, for the kid's own sake.

Walter Underwood
(wunder) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Removing a crew member on 07/13/2010 08:12:59 MDT Print View

I removed a Scout from our 50 MIler crew after a shakedown. His mom was pretty angry, but he didn't go on the trek.

We consider emotional maturity and teamwork a safety issue. Adults have final say on safety issues, and it is a single-veto system, no voting.

In this case, the Scout didn't bring a sleeping pad, didn't prepare for his crew responsibility, resisted doing crew chores, continually pushed back on the crew leader's decisions (like the hike leader rotation), ignored safety signs, and intentionally left food behind because he didn't want to carry it.

Sounds like small stuff until the Scout does that with bear or lightning protocol. We decided he was a safety risk for the crew. Maybe he would be ready next year.

The Philmont Advisor Guide has a very good section on this, well worth your $10: http://www.bacphilmont.org/pag.html

Mike Barney
(eaglemb) - F

Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
Hooray for Walter on 07/25/2010 10:03:01 MDT Print View

Walter,
it takes some fortitude to 'do the right thing' for the overall crew, particularly when parents get into the fray.

Hope the 50 went better than expected.

Mike

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Removing a crew member on 07/25/2010 15:46:05 MDT Print View

> In this case, the Scout didn't bring a sleeping pad, didn't prepare for his
> crew responsibility, resisted doing crew chores, continually pushed back
> on the crew leader's decisions (like the hike leader rotation), ignored
> safety signs, and intentionally left food behind because he didn't want to carry it.
> Sounds like small stuff

Definitely NOT 'small stuff' at all. Right decision.

It may be he was subconsciously looking for adult discipline (leadership) which he was not getting at home. It might be interesting to see how he behaves on a local trip in the future?

Cheers

Walter Underwood
(wunder) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Hooray for Walter on 08/04/2010 22:45:52 MDT Print View

Our 50 Miler was great, even though it was more challenging than expected, including three people heading home the second day with altitude sickness.

For me, the high point was a crew discussion (no adults) about five days in, about the goals for the trip. They decided that a fun trip was more important than a patch and we had a 45 Miler.

This crew was the core of our Philmont crew last month, which made it a breeze.