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Huzefa Siamwala
(huzefa) - M
Breakfast on 11/23/2008 21:53:07 MST Print View

To breakfast or NOT? This question has been troubling me lately.

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>"With training and proper diet, the serious athlete can increase glycogen stores in the muscle from 500 Calories to 1,500-2000 Calories."

This is not a trivial thing to accomplish. It requires first and foremost a lot of muscle mass, something that most long distance hikers do not have. Then it requires well timed glycogen depletion followed by loading, the first day of which you will have larger glycogen stores, but on each additional day you will likely not have as much glycogen stored.

Also keep in mind that most of the glycogen stored in your liver will be burned up overnight while you sleep.

>I think it is safe to assume that at start I will have enough glycogen for at least 3hrs

Easily, but to tap into those stores, your body will go into a catabolic state. THAT'S why breakfast is so important. It slows or reverse the catabolic state that we enter overnight, boosting metabolism for the rest of the day, and sparing muscle in the process.
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>Your body won't burn much fat until your blood sugar levels get low enough to signal a lack of ready energy, and this doesn't happen until you burn (or store as fat) all the carbs you've just eaten plus and glycogen stored in your liver. Fat burning is highest in a fasted state. Increasing your protein intake will help spare muscle to make sure you DO burn fat instead of your valuable muscle.

What you are are saying is that to get the maximum fat burn I need to finish using up my carbs and glycogen reserves? If I follow your reasoning then to get max fat burn I shouldnt carry any food.

>Your body burns fat and carbohydrates to produce energy. Carbohydrates are stored in the form of glycogen in your liver and muscles and glucose in your bloodstream. Carbohydrates can be consumed on their own to produce energy via anaerobic energy production. They are also used via aerobic energy production to to burn fat. It's sort of like the relationship between charcoal and lighter fluid. Charcoal (fat in the analogy) burns slowly and requires a higher energy fuel like lighter fluid (carbohydrates in the analogy) to initiate combustion. After the fire is going only a small amount of starter-fuel is required to maintain combustion. I know that personally it takes me about 15-20 minutes of steady-state exercise to shift from burning mostly carbohydrates to burning mostly fat.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/5516/index.html?skip_to_post=39210#39210

But this says that I need steady small amount of carbs to keep the fat burn going - like I thought.

______________________

>>Your body burns fat and carbohydrates (AND PROTEIN) to produce energy. Carbohydrates are stored in the form of glycogen in your liver and muscles and glucose in your bloodstream. Carbohydrates can be consumed on their own to produce energy via anaerobic energy production. They are also used via aerobic energy production to to burn fat. It's sort of like the relationship between charcoal and lighter fluid. Charcoal (fat in the analogy) burns slowly and requires a higher energy fuel like lighter fluid (carbohydrates in the analogy) to initiate combustion. After the fire is going only a small amount of starter-fuel is required to maintain combustion. I know that personally it takes me about 15-20 minutes of steady-state exercise to shift from burning mostly carbohydrates to burning mostly fat.

I don't know where that reference comes from, but in a fasted state (assuming your liver and muscle glycogen are partially depleted after and overnight fast)) it would take anywhere from 15-40 minutes of steady state aerobic exercise to make the shift from burning mainly carbs to mainly fat. If you've just eaten a lot of carbs, these will also have to be burned off first before you really hit you fat stores. If your liver is also full of glycogen, it will take even longer. Fat burning is not an on-off thing. When you first start exercising after a carb-dense meal you may be burning 30% fat/70% glucose. By the time you've burned off most of your carbs you may be closer to burning 80% fat/20% glucose. You do NOT need any carbs to burn fat efficiently...quite the opposite. But if you are not used to exercising in this state (essentially burning ketones for energy instead of glucose) then it can take time to adjust. This is why a lot of elite endurance athletes now practice "fat loading' instead of "carb loading". Once your body is used to it, burning fat gives you access to greater and more even burning energy stores. This is all in theory. in practice, how much fat you burn will be dictated MAINLY by how many fewer calories you eat than you burn. If you eat carbs all day long, but also burn them off as you eat them, and go do bed with a calorie deficit for the day, you will still burn fat. You just need to be careful that you get plenty of protein, plus 'enough' calories to keep your body from digging into your muscle stores for energy. As a general guideline, a safe amount to cut calories without risking muscle loss is to eat 80% of your maintenance calories (the amount of calories that would keep you at a steady weight). That's not always easy to work out when your hiking though!

>>What you are are saying is that to get the maximum fat burn I need to finish using up my carbs and glycogen reserves? If I follow your reasoning then to get max fat burn I shouldnt carry any food.

Yes, that would certainly get you maximum fat burning, but you would also pretty quickly start burning muscle too. Like all things in life it's a balance. Try and stick to the 80% rule of thumb and you should be fine.

__________________________


Going through these past discussions, it seems to me that breakfast with high fibre/protein/low carb would be best as they are likely to break the fastened state of the body from the night and allows me to go quickly to fat burning mode. Am I getting this right?

Huzefa Siamwala
(huzefa) - M
Kellogg Special K20 Protein Water Mix on 11/24/2008 04:45:56 MST Print View

Serving Size 1 packet (15.0 g)
Amount Per Serving % Daily Value*
Calories 30
Sodium 40mg 2%
Total Carbohydrates 6.0g 2%
-Dietary Fiber 5.0g 20%
Protein 5.0g

Ingredients
POLYDEXTROSE, WHEY PROTEIN ISOLATE, CITRIC ACID, NATURAL AND ARTIFICIAL FLAVOR, CONTAINS TWO PERCENT OR LESS OF SOY LECITHIN, SUCRALOSE, ETHOXYLATED MONO- AND DIGLYCERIDES, TRICALCIUM PHOSPHATE, ACESULFAME POTASSIUM, RED #40, NIACINAMIDE, PYRIDOXINE HYDROCHLORIDE (VITAMIN B6), VITAMIN B12.

This sounds too good to be true...

Chris W
(simplespirit) - MLife

Locale: .
Re: Kellogg Special K20 Protein Water Mix on 11/24/2008 05:50:26 MST Print View

Something is off since a single serving has 6g carbs and 5g protein which each contain 4 calories per gram. That's 44 calories of carbs and protein yet the entire serving is only listed at 30 calories.

Thom Darrah
(thomdarrah) - MLife

Locale: Southern Oregon
UL Protein on 11/24/2008 09:35:22 MST Print View

As part of a no cook system, when on the trail, I use a GNC purchased sport protein powder to supplement my diet. Mixed with water a half serving (two scoops) provides 300 calories and 28 grams of protein. I premeasure and package the servings (two per day) which in powder form is very light. On the trail place premeasured serving into bottle, add water, shake and drink. It is easy to carry a few extra servings for insurance or additional calories if needed. This is an easy, fast and light way to add calories and protein to ones diet.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Breakfast on 11/24/2008 09:38:20 MST Print View

the fiber portion of the carbohydrate grams doesn't provide calories

Sarah Kirkconnell
(sarbar) - F

Locale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Re: Breakfast on 11/24/2008 12:02:02 MST Print View

In the end it comes down to what a person needs and likes.

Myself, if I don't eat something I turn into a cranky, unmotivated hiker :-P

Huzefa Siamwala
(huzefa) - M
Re: Re: Kellogg Special K20 Protein Water Mix on 11/25/2008 02:02:59 MST Print View

>Something is off since a single serving has 6g carbs and 5g protein which each contain 4 calories per gram. That's 44 calories of carbs and protein yet the entire serving is only listed at 30 calories.

Upon further research I found that polydextrose has energy value of 1cal/g.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=foa9l-rQQLMC&pg=PA415&lpg=PA415&dq=polydextrose&source=web&ots=8PXLsPxH1N&sig=V6UwIMEfF2xzNcaafv4WBguegC0&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=7&ct=result

6g Total Carb(including 5g from polydextrose)=4 + 5x1=9cal
5g Protein=5x4=20cal
Total Cal=29cal

That is close to the listed cal.

Edited by huzefa on 11/25/2008 03:12:05 MST.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Breakfast on 11/25/2008 12:15:34 MST Print View

>To breakfast or NOT? This question has been troubling me lately.

It depends on your goals. If reducing fat is your main goal and you don't care about muscle loss, then don't carry any food. If balancing fat burning while minimising muscle loss is your priority, then do 45-60 minutes of aerobic exercise before eating a high protein moderate carb breakfast. Even better is do do 10-20 sprint intervals before breakfast. If performance is your goal then definitely eat a decent balanced breakfast before setting off for the day. For most hikers, perfromance is the main goal, so breakfast is a good idea. If you are walking long days you will already be burning plenty of fat (and muscle), so you shouldn't worry over the minor details of getting into fat-burning mode as fast as possible...

Craig G
(OutDoorActivities) - F

Locale: Oregon/Washington/Calif
Yes, but delayed till warmed up on 11/25/2008 12:31:34 MST Print View

quote~
"Going through these past discussions, it seems to me that breakfast with high fibre/protein/low carb would be best as they are likely to break the fastened state of the body from the night and allows me to go quickly to fat burning mode. Am I getting this right?"

i like fiber, fat and protein for b-fast,,, after warming up a bit.
i acknowledge that i am diff than most in that i dont need caffine. So the idea of a simple, and cold b-fast works fine for me.

THIS works for me whether camping, hiking, or just starting a work-day:
Clean-up, pack-up, straighten-up, get moving / working-out just beyond warm-up level.... and then eat the small item i pre-prepared during the pack-up/straighten-up phase of the morning.
PB on Gram-Cracker, with or without a piece of chocolate, an hour, or even up to three hours, after waking WORKS GREAT. It'll take me through to a late lunch. (unless it is cold, or water-based activites, or i am really ripping it up out there)

Thanks for starting the topic.

regards,

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: Breakfast on 11/25/2008 12:41:32 MST Print View

>To breakfast or NOT? This question has been troubling me lately.

One last fact worth thinking about. People who skip breakfast are twice as likely to become obese as people who always eat breakfast. Food for thought...

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Breakfast on 11/25/2008 13:32:04 MST Print View

> To breakfast or NOT? This question has been troubling me lately.

The day does not start until AFTER my breakfast.

Cheers

Denis Hazlewood
(redleader) - MLife

Locale: Luxury-Light Luke on the Llano Azul
The Day Does Not Start... on 11/25/2008 13:58:51 MST Print View

Here here! I concur. But...

"One last fact worth thinking about. People who skip breakfast are twice as likely to become obese as people who always eat breakfast. Food for thought..."

It didn't work for me.

Sincerely,
Les van Svelt

Edited by redleader on 11/25/2008 13:59:38 MST.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: The Day Does Not Start... on 11/25/2008 15:35:36 MST Print View

>It didn't work for me.

Maybe you have to do it for a lifetime...or at least start when you are a child.

Denis Hazlewood
(redleader) - MLife

Locale: Luxury-Light Luke on the Llano Azul
Re: Re: The Day Does Not Start... on 11/25/2008 15:48:23 MST Print View

You mean pushing away from the table?

Huzefa Siamwala
(huzefa) - M
Re: Re: Breakfast on 11/25/2008 16:57:56 MST Print View

>If reducing fat is your main goal and you don't care about muscle loss, then don't carry any food. If balancing fat burning while minimising muscle loss is your priority, then do 45-60 minutes of aerobic exercise before eating a high protein moderate carb breakfast.

Allison check my diet PDF in my profile. I am actually planning to take protein through out the day to minimize muscle loss.

Huzefa Siamwala
(huzefa) - M
Re: Yes, but delayed till warmed up on 11/25/2008 17:02:00 MST Print View

>i like fiber, fat and protein for b-fast,,, after warming up a bit.
i acknowledge that i am diff than most in that i dont need caffine. So the idea of a simple, and cold b-fast works fine for me.

same here. :)

Love to hear your thoughts on my diet. Check the PDF in my profile.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: Re: Breakfast on 11/25/2008 17:40:52 MST Print View

I still don't understand the structure of your diet. Are you going to drink protein all day long, or are you having carbohydrates with your protein?? If so, then a total of 15g protein is hardly enought to prevent muscle wasting. Or are you having protein and recovery drink both throughout the day??? I also see almost no fat (other than a few grams of omega-3). What happened to the peanuts???

And please, try the protein drink out at those quantities before you hit the trail. Large quantities polydextrose causes diarrhoea in many people (even small quantities in some folks).

Huzefa Siamwala
(huzefa) - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: Breakfast on 11/25/2008 18:23:53 MST Print View

>I still don't understand the structure of your diet.

During day I plan to have only this:
Hydration 1: Kellogg Protein Water Mix* x15g, Electrolytes, One-A-Day Maximum pill
Hydration 2: Kellogg Protein Water Mix* x15g, Electrolytes
Hydration 3: Kellogg Protein Water Mix* x15g, Electrolytes
*Dietary Fiber 5g, Whey Protein Isolates x5g

Immediately after I call a day, I plan to have 4 post-excercise drinks, each every half-hour to maximize on 2hour window for glycogen repletion.

For dinner my aim is to supply complex carbs for further glycogen repletion over the night.

>If so, then a total of 15g protein is hardly enought to prevent muscle wasting.

how much protein do you think I should take? I have total of 15+40+27.5=82.5g of proteins in my diet. For reference my weight is 65kgs right now.

>What happened to the peanuts???

I think I have already filled my quota of PPPPD. Do I really need fats for a hike lasting few days? I think not. For longer hike then all I need to do would be add more fats to my dinner.

>And please, try the protein drink out at those quantities before you hit the trail. Large quantities polydextrose causes diarrhoea in many people (even small quantities in some folks).

I will find out. Thanks for all your lively contributions. :)

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Breakfast on 11/25/2008 18:47:54 MST Print View

OK, I got it. Basically 15 grams of protein spread over the day is not really even breaking your overnight fast. You will be catabolic from within 30-40 minutes of the time you start walking until you have your first recovery drink. That will cause you to burn a lot of fat, but also a lot of muscle. Better to have your "recovery drink" throughout the day (starting with one for breakfast, or 30-40 minutes into the start of your walk).

Of course, if it's only a few days at a time, you can get away with almost anything, including fasting all day followed by stuffing your face with sugar, and not having any fats. I wouldn't recommend this for longer trips though.

As for "enough" protein, the concensus for endurance athletes is summed up by the following study:
"Our results suggest that a protein intake of 1.2-1.4 g/kg or 10-15% of total energy intake is needed to achieve a positive nitrogen balance." So if you are under 70kg AND getting enough total calories, you may be OK, aside from your prolonged exercise in a fasted state.

Huzefa Siamwala
(huzefa) - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Breakfast on 11/25/2008 19:10:56 MST Print View

Protein Water mix in my understanding will do two things:
>reduce hunger
>supply additional protein in my diet

>That will cause you to burn a lot of fat, but also a lot of muscle.

I am having about 1.27g/kg of protein. If that is enough protein why will I burn muscles? Keep in mind that this diet is for a few day and I will be hiking max of 10hrs/day, mostly less. For longer hike with higher mileage, I will be adding seeds and nuts with 20g-25g/ proteins per 100g to supply additional fats/proteins.

>Better to have your "recovery drink" throughout the day (starting with one for breakfast, or 30-40 minutes into the start of your walk).

That will break my fastened state..

Edited by huzefa on 11/25/2008 19:14:02 MST.