Well the noise issue is certainly something that you can minimize by pitching the tarp super taught, and there's also the issue of each user having his own level of tolerance. What might drive one person off the wall can be just part of the background noise to another person.


>Now all it takes are a few "too noisy" comments to kill the commercial viability of a marginal interest shelter.

All that said... There's something that doesn't "sit right" about this quote, and I'm pointing it out because I think there are a lot of people out there (read: a lot of SUL gear fanatics) who think the exact same way. The problem is, this is a free market. Consumers have no obligation to keep their criticisms of some products quiet just because the product is new to the market, or because the company that makes it doesn't move big inventory. In fact, doing so can do worse damage to the company than if you hadn't kept your criticisms quiet.

The idea is that you're somehow helping, by not "hurting" a company with a negative review, but if the company can't get honest, critical feedback from its target market, the ultimate outcome will be negative for that company. A bad business move is one thing, but a bad business move not corrected can be a whole lot worse. It can be the difference between losing minor investment on an initial production run and losing major investment on inventory that will never move.

Edited by artsandt on 11/15/2008 17:05:23 MST.

With many of todays spinnaker and cuben shelters and tarps being offered with linelocs it is very easy to pitch these shelters drum tight and also readjust if required to maintain a taut pitch. The most noise my spinnaker or cuben tarps make are when removing them from there stuff sacks.

Art
I wasn't implying a form of censorship, what I had in mind is that with the advent of forums , sometimes products fail not because they are bad but because of ill informed comments that tend to magnify certain negative aspects. Just imagine that there were only a few shelter made out of silnylon. Now I could put up a review rubbishing the fabric because it doesn't breathe, it stretches or shrinks and it isn't all that waterproof. To top that off it is semi transparent and will deteriorate under the sun. All of those comments are true, so why do they sell this kind of rubbish ?
If you look at my Contrail review on this site , you will find that I gave it a 5 ( should really be a 4.5 because it can be improved...) but I did bother to spell out that it is based on the fact that it is a 700g shelter.
Like it or not spinnaker has a perceived reputation of beign noisy. I never played with it but I do "suspect" that if the shelter allows a taut pitch, the noise disappears. Unfortunately a lot of (particularly new) would be buyers fail to consider "user error" and once they make their mind up that something doesn't work nothing will change that.
As an example here in Melbourne ( and Australia in general) retailers are not interested in stocking UL gear because it is just too hard (time consuming) to sell . Why? Because the perception is that UL is just not good enough for our conditions. Of course we have UL backpakers here, but not enough to justify time and effort to look after them.
I do definitely agree that constructive criticism is necessary for product development. Again you may notice that the Contrail is on V3 already. I was happy with the first version but now that I have V3 I have retired the other one.
By the time Henry comes out with version 4 I will provably convince myself that I cannot venture out without a Sublite Spinn.....
Franco

I've seen a report that a 2-person Sublite may be coming soon. Any truth in it? A 2-person version of the Sublite Sil is exactly what I'm looking for! Of course it would require longer trekking poles or (on mine) extenders. If I didn't have to accommodate an 80-lb. dog, I'd get the one-person--but I suspect that I would get shoved out the door!

I agree with Henry that there's a niche for more affordable tents, such as the ones he makes. A 21.5 oz. solo tent may not be quite as light as "The One," but where else can you find such a tent for $160 (the current sale price)?

Edited by hikinggranny on 11/16/2008 17:22:31 MST.

I never go backpacking without ear plugs.

Hey David - we don't do that in the Rockies because of bears. We like to hear them coming.

Oh you mean sleeping ;)

I purchased a Contrail about this time last year, and after coming to the slow realization that it’s supposed to be breezy inside (compared to the protected airspace of the regular tents I’ve used in the past), I finally decided that despite the extra attention a tarptent requires in site selection, tensioning, and moisture management, I like it.

Now Henry comes out with the Sublite, and that looks pretty good too. But for those of you that have used the Tyvek Sublite, I’m curious if bright moonlit nights make the white interior glow like the inside of a light bulb. I suspect it would, and if so, how does it affect your sleep?

Henry,
Thanks for the post, but I hope you reconsider using Cuben Fiber. I really like the front entry design of the Contrail and Squall 2. I bought a Refuge X. It is indeed an excellent tarptent. However, I can't get my wife into it and I'm considering selling it (as I'm not that comfortable being in it, either). This has nothing to do with the material, but everything to do with the design. This is a personal preference, but one shared by my wife and me: we both prefer the peak of the tent to be by our head. I like as much room by my head as possible. Again, there are probably plenty of people out there who feel otherwise, but we both feel the same way. So, in that sense, I have to respectfully disagree with your statement about their being "plenty of Cuben Fiber shelters out there". My apologies if I am missing something, but I don't believe there is anything similar to either a Contrail or Squall 2 in Cuben.

We own a Squall 2 and I would buy a Cuben Fiber version if it would save us substantial weight. Are you sure it would only save 4 ounces? The (silnylon) Refuge is 27 ounces, while the Refuge X is 16 oz. I believe the floor is the same. Perhaps you've done the math already, or maybe you are considering a heavier weight version of Cuban Fiber, but I would be surprised if you only save 4 ounces if you made a Squall 2 in Cuban.

If you prefer to not work with Cuben, that is understandable. I hope you don't base that decision on your assumption of the ultralight crowd, though. There is a big mix here, but there are plenty of people here who will pay top dollar to save a bit of weight. Many of these folks aren't rich, they just spend their money on gear (as opposed to other things, like big screen televisions). If you aren't sure if folks are interested, then I suggest taking a poll. Again, this is up to you -- it's your company and you can do what you want. I'm sure designing new tents is probably a lot more fun than working with a new material (especially if that material is difficult to work with). But if you run the numbers and do a poll, I bet you would find that there are lots of people interested in paying a bunch of money (hundreds, I wouldn't say thousands) to save a little weight. Ron Bell has been successful knowing that we have that attitude.

One of the first things I learned about ultralight, is that you have to make trade-offs. I personally take the attitude (and I know there are plenty like me) that if the only trade-off is cost, then I pay the money.

Edited by rossbleakney on 11/17/2008 16:41:59 MST.

I can not speak for Henry, but after 35 years in the business world, I can make a few educated assumptions:


1) Just to have the ABILITY to make Cuben Fiber versions of his products would require a large up-front capital investment for the fabric alone. It has been stated on another forum that there is a 3-fold price difference between Cuben Fiber and silnylon per yard. Also, since the roll width of CF is 17 inches narrower than silnylon (48 vs. 65 inches), it takes an additional 30% more fabric. All that drops to the bottom line and the retail price takes a big leap. This definitely limits the potential market for any such product.


2) Each product MAY have to be re-designed to allow for the narrower roll width. That takes time and adds complexity. Any extra seams required mean more labor for production and more potential problems in the field. Again, these costs add to the retail cost.

3) Inventory Control: Henry's had enough problems with this in the past without adding additional SKUs to his warehouse.

4) Production Capacity: Can Henry's current sewing company accomodate CF, both the material itself and the production time required on their machines? If not, another manufacturing facility would have to be sourced, a new business relationship formed, contracts, etc. I strongly suspect that would be a deal killer right there.


SUGGESTION: Those who are truly serious about a Cuben Fiber tarptent need to contact Henry to determine if (a) he'd even consider it and (b) what minimum quantity at what individual cost he would be willing to custom-build the item for you. Note that with most companies, custom work is not returnable (unless defective in manufacture) and must be paid for in full up front.

Alternatively, buy the CF yourself and MYOG. Again, for most folks, I strongly suspect that would be a deal killer right there.

You might have better luck finding Franco's Holy Grail - and you'd get famous and rich besides.

Edited by wandering_bob on 11/18/2008 12:02:50 MST.

Bob,

Thanks for posting up a very concise and intelligent list of observations about what it would really take for Henry or any other business person to bring out a CF tarptent.

As a consummer, it is always easy to want to have something, but the reality of bringing it to market is often much more involved and complex.

As you have so nicely pointed out, there is much more involved than just pulling out a roll of CF and tossing it into the production line.

Personally, I would love to see lighter tarptents out of there, but I do understand that it is first and foremost a business that needs to be run wisely and profitabily.

-Tony

Bob, You beat me to the points I was going to make, especially the capital cost and fabric width issues. The large panels on the Squall 2 needs at least 54" width fabric so that model isn't applicable for Cuben--the last thing you want to do with cuben is to piece/seam it together unless absolutely necessary.

The capital cost is a big issue. I'll try to explain to those who don't spend time thinking about such things. In a limited capital world--Tarptent is certainly no exception; it's especially hard to even borrow capital these days--anything that ties up capital limits alternatives. Cuben is somewhere between 3X and 4X the cost of Silnylon. So, for example, if I tied up $100 in capital to build a Cuben version of the Sublite shelter, I could have instead used the same capital to buy fabric for 3 equivalent shelters in silnylon. Assuming I could sell the silnylon shelters and assuming that a cuben shelter was priced to return the same profit as a silnylon shelter then it makes much more business sense to build silnylon shelters. I could, of course, price the Cuben shelter to return substantially more profit than a single silnylon shelter to make up for the smaller number of units but then pricing goes into the stratosphere (and that just doesn't feel good to me at all for several reasons). If capital wasn't limited then none of this applies but the fact is that it is limited and all our other models require a piece of the capital pie too. As we grow--add more models and more manufactured units--the demands on the capital pie increase. For manufacturers with smaller capital demands, life is easier in a sense but we have a lot more SKUs now (and about to get even larger) so we have to manage capital very carefully. I wont go on but I hope this helps clarify.

Ross, re: the apparent 11-ounce weight difference between the silnylon and cuben versions of the SMD Refuge, you will have to ask Ron--Ron, are you there?--about how he achieved that but the numbers don't make sense to me if the only difference is the canopy fabric. 0.6-ounce Cuben--I'm guessing that's what Ron is using. Ron?--is 0.75 ounces/yd lighter than 1.35-ounce silnylon. An 11-ounce weight difference works out to 14 2/3 yds of canopy fabric and there's just no way that the Refuge uses that much canopy fabric. FYI - The 4-ounce weight difference I quoted is for a Sublite, not a Squall 2, because the Sublite canopy uses about 5.4 yds of fabric. A Squall 2 canopy is closer to 7 yds of fabric so the weight difference/savings would be a bit over 5 ounces.

-H

Thanks Henry. Very informative .
You casually dropped a hint about new shelters to come.Could one of them be a Contrail in Cuben Fiber ?
One wonders...
Franco

No Cuben Contrail to announce but I would like to take this opportunity to announce the new Cuben TripleCrown™ shelter. It's a large shelter that covers the entire lengths of the AT, CDT, and PCT. Hikers and equestrians on those trails will no longer have to worry about rain. Hundreds of thousands of hikers will be able to leave heavy silnylon tents behind and collective weight savings will be converted to a cap-and-trade system.

The United States is 103671742065706 sq. ft. Cuben Fiber costs somewhere around $18/ sq. yd. So, solving for the cost per square yard of the Cuben TripleCrown™ shelter I estimate that you will be going bankrupt in about 8.7 seconds, Henry.

Nah, just go ahead and charge it. Send the bill to the Treasury. I'm sure they can cover it with the new TARP program.

Sounds like exactly what I was looking for.

Do I have to use trekking pole extenders or will 145 cm work?

>The United States is 103671742065706 sq. ft. Cuben Fiber costs somewhere around $18/ sq. yd. So, solving for the cost per square yard of the Cuben TripleCrown™ shelter I estimate that you will be going bankrupt in about 8.7 seconds, Henry.

I'm surprised to see BPL staff being so harsh on such a great idea, Sam. You far overestimate the expense involved, as Henry didn't say he plans to cover the whole country, just the Triple Crown trails.

Henry's approximate costs:

7400 mi (approx distance of TC) x 1760 yd/mi (conversion factor) x 3 yards (estimated of width of fabric required to generously cover a trail) x $18 (per square yard for Cuben) x 1.15 (an extra 15% for the occasional shelter annex) = $808,790,400

Henry should just call up Ted Turner, he's an outdoorsy kind of guy.

Edit: Actually, I agree with Tom on using the TARP program; I hadn't realized how clever he was being. :)

Edited by dsmontgomery on 11/18/2008 13:04:07 MST.

Hi Henry

Seems to me an overkill.
Why don't you think UL and just put a 3 yard long shelter every 300 yards? That way the weight and cost would be only 1% of the original estimate. Far more in keeping with UL concepts, and the regular shelters could replace most of the track marking too. SAR costs would plummet. Speak to Paulson about his fat wallet.

Cheers

This could be embarrassing for Henry, but since he is reading this thread (Henry never speaks to me) I take the opportunity to publicly remind him that he was the cause of me losing my last lob. The short version is that his "Sleep Anywhere " motto should at least add "but not at work"
Franco

...getting back on topic, Henry, how long do you plan to have the 20% off sale? I want to read a few user reviews first, but I also don't want to miss out on an excellent sale.

Also, I was a bit surprised to see the guyline down the front middle. Is this just for really strong winds? Seems it might complicate getting things taught vs. the front two guyouts.

Also, Can you specify the weight of the Tarptent alone (no stakes, stuffsack, cords)? This is how I measure my other shelters, so it will help for comparison purposes.

Thank you for what appears to be an excellent shelter! Great way to create a pyramid-style solo tent with no center pole.