I thought I was the most informed man in the backpacking world until recently when I have heard very small and highly praised mentions for Valandre, a couple of which were on peoples wish lists above WM and FF bags. Upon briefly boning up on their bags I wonder what it is I am not seeing in their offerings. Please illuminate. I do notice that the majority of their bags are for much colder conditions than most of us typically see.

Valandre is not on MY wish list as I have a Shocking Blue; I also have and use down bags by FF, WM and a custom one by Integral Designs.

The Valandre Shocking Blue is, quite simply, the single finest sleeping bag I have ever owned, used, seen or even wanted. If, I were restricted to ONE bag for ALL my BC, Yukon, AB and NWT uses and after 44+ years of pretty intense wilderness work and recreation, it would, without question, be this bag, period.

It is so carefully designed that a -15*F bag weighs only 3 lbs., has lots of room inside and I am a husky guy with a 59" shoulder girth and mine is the "long" so I have plenty of room to keep my boots inside in sub-zero weather.

I now use this bag almost always and my three other highend down bags stay home on the shelf in my gear room; my only other bag(s) that I now use regularly are my ID North Twin/Andromeda Overbag combo for hunting trips.

There "may" be something better out there, but, I have had most of the name stuff and while PHD "may" be an option here, I seriously doubt that ANYTHING is superior to the Valandre SB, Lafayette, Mirage and the new Bloody Mary.

What about a custom made Nunatak ARC Alpinist? To be honest I have never heard of Valandre. At 22oz with 800 down fill and a 20 degrees temp. Hard to beet!!

Valandre is, in my opinion, one of the finest of all bag manufacturers.

Here is my review of the Mirage:http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/valandre_mirage_sleeping_bag_review.html

Valandre:
http://www.valandre.com/us/frontpage.htm

In design, Nunatak and Valandre are apples and oranges. Both are pushing the warmth to weight ratio but in quite different ways.

dj

I will definitely check out Valandre soon. I am was looking a Nunatak Arc Alpinist to buy right now.. What is the difference= apples and oranges??

Edited by Creachen on 11/12/2008 19:29:34 MST.

Valandre's bags are extremely well made, IMHO, with, I think, arc cut baffles which almost establish the bag's shape without the support of their down . They're cut wide in the torso, to allow their user to wear a fairly thick jacket (as they go down in temperature rating, this roominess seems to increase.)

My only hesitation about them is that this shape almost requires one to wear a jacket, to avoid heating a larger than needed volume of interior air. In the three bags I considered buying (Mirage, Shocking Blue, and Lafayette), it seemed that the down fill in the chest area was kind of skimpy; the tubes looked like they might have a tendency to collapse a bit, again almost as though the designer expected the user would be wearing a jacket and wouldn't need as much down in the chest region. The tubes for the lower torso were, in contrast, quite plumply filled.

In contrast with a quilt, a bag with this much "structural integrity" won't collapse around ones body, as a quilt will, so there's always extra air to be heated, even with a jacket. In very cold environments, the absolute sealing out of any drafts may the correct tradeoff, though that comes at the cost of the down compressed beneath the user not justifying its carried weight. Down to 0 degrees F, I feel that a quilt like those made by by Nunatak (I have two and am buying a third) will have better contact warmth, greater temperature latitude, be warmer overall, be easier to adjust as temperatures change, and lighter, but may require more skill and attention to use, and more adjustment throughout the night.

It also seems that humidity builds up more in a mummy bags than in quilts, with attendant swelteriness and condensation. Why this is I don't know, but it may be connected with their narrower optimal temperature range.

But Valandre makes great bags, among the best of the classic mummies.

Edited by swimjay on 11/12/2008 19:18:06 MST.

Thanks James for the Excellent information. I am leaning towards the Nunatak Arc Alpinist- but it is good to get a opinion on mummy Vs. quilt. There is rarely any humidity in the Sierra's. Over all I would much rather be warm then cold and I do understand skill level with regards to clothes and layering. I do have another problem and that is my size 6"3 235lbs. Still debating....

Like all great products, Valandre and Nunatak bear the imprint of their designers' personalities. So, for example, Tom at Nunatak gets very excited about a new, subtly lighter version of Pertex Quantum, which though not quite as robust, lofts better, packs smaller, and transmits water vapor better. He seems to value finesse and incremental improvement. You wouldn't want to drag one of his bags across a scree field, but, with minimal care, my four year old light-colored bag still looks brand new.

On the Valandre site, one finds copy like, "...this bag will outmatch anything in it's own weight class and even take on bigger guys. Game over." or "If the La Fayette was a left hand jab for the competitors, the Shocking Blue is the right hand uppercut that will finish them off and send them to the canvas for a full count." Tongue firmly in cheek, no doubt, but still. He uses fabrics, in his warmer bags, which emphasize ruggedness, justifiably, because his target audience, ice and high altitude big mountain climbers, have tents full of pitons and crampons. I have two of his jackets, and if one ever had to spend 6 months in Antarctica, one couldn't ask for anything better fitting, better engineered, or more robust. But I'll probably never take either of them backpacking.

Valandre bags are the most finely made I have yet seen, with the exception of Integral Designs. They are NOT a traditional mummy, far from it and they incorporate a level of very careful design that gives them a superior performance in very cold conditions. I refer here ONLY to the Shocking Blue as I have not had any others and V's "expedition" bags ARE very traditional in overall execution.

I have used a "quilt" type of bag, the FF "overbag" with it's pad pocket quite a lot and down to a measured 10*F, mine is rated at 30*F. I have found that these are not as efficient in really cold weather and now never use mine. A really GOOD mummy bag will both drape well around you and block the draughts that can make your back cold and this REALLY pizzes a person off at 03:00 when it is -30*F and you are awakened by these draughts.

I have not used a Nunatak bag, the few Yukon sheep hunters I know who have told me that their gear is spectacular and I trust their opinions. However,, IF, you had Nunatak build one of their mummy bags to the same size specs./down fill as the Shocking Blue, I think that the overall weight diference would be very small.

It all depends on what you want a bag to do for you and my uses are very probably different from the original posters. If, you LIKE quilts and are comfortable with them, great, buy a Nunatak. If, you want a no bullschit mountain bag to use in places like BC, AK, Yukon, NWT at the least weight for the maximum warmth, I think that a VSB is the best choice available at present.

It IS the drape of that roomy torso area of the bag that is one of the most impressive things about it; my FF, ID, WM and original Grand Junction Marmot bags do not drape nearly this well and this is due to the brilliant design, IMHO.

Dewey, your point is well-taken. The Shocking Blue has enough new features that one shouldn't call it a traditional mummy bag. And it is very well made. Does yours have the Pertex Endurance exterior? And, if you've had a chance to compare, how is that different from what's used on the current bags, Asahi KASEI Impact 66 Polyamid rip stop?

You mention that the Shocking Blue was quite a departure from Valandre's very low temperature bags, like the Odin and the Thor. How would you compare the latter two with bags of similar warmth from Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering?

Thanks.

Mine is the latest version, new last February and sent to me by a friend in the USA. It has the Ashahi fabric shell and is kinda bluish-grey in colour. After using this bag, I would not bother with an Endurance shell, it is close to "perfect" as is.

I cannot compare the FF and WM bags with the Odin, Thor, etc. as I have never seen these. I HAVE handled and examined scores of WM winter bags and a number of FF ones, as well.

My Valandre impresses me like no other bag I have used or seen.At this level of quality, tho', it is pretty much impossible to get a "bad" bag and with ID's outstanding bags as well, one should choose based on what YOU like best.

I doubt anyone would be disappointed in any FF, WM, ID or Val. bag that fitted them correctly.For MOST backpackers, I think that the new Bloody Mary ism going to be a very serious option and a bit more suited to regular backpacking than a Shocking Blue.

I DO agree on the rather lurid rhetoric of their site, it kinda reminds me of the "cool" comments on the old Synergy Works gear from California. Super people, but, just a bit "over the top" when promoting their gear....that said, I would love to get another of their ventile expedition parkas.

Edited by Kutenay on 11/13/2008 15:29:50 MST.

I can't help myself...gotta chime in here... :-)

Disclosure: I am an authorized retailer for Valandre' gear.

I personally own the Swing 500, the Mirage, the Lafayette, and the Thor. And am buying the Bloody Mary when they become available.

What do I like about them? Well, they have great loft, but I can compress them better than I could my I.D. XPD2. The I.D. bag is a great bag, but it was so big and difficult to stuff in a compression sack. My Thor has tons of loft, yet I can compress it in a OR sack so that it is 10" in diameter and 12-14" long. Small enough to fit in the bottom of my McHale pack. Another thing about them is I sleep WARMER in them than any other bag i've tried, and I get to try a bunch of different mfgr's models. Their goose down just seems to be really high grade stuff.

I have tested the Mirage outside in 12 degree weather and I stayed warm. I have used the Shocking Blue in -20F and also was warm. I had a layer of icebreaker wool and a balaclava, plus I was on an Exped mattress.

Niels is a perfectionist. His designs are well thought-out. The bags are very efficient. I prefer his bags due to the design, the fill power, and the compressibility. BTW, they do not use Endurance fabric. Niels feels that it interferes with the breathability and he prefers to use fabric that will expel the moisture. We've talked about this on the phone.

Are they for everyone? No. You may like Valandre's features, maybe not. Thank goodness there are several top bag mfgrs out there to provide bags that suit different tastes. Kinda like some of us prefer chocolate ice cream, some like vanilla.

Edited by vigilguy on 11/13/2008 20:02:13 MST.

Here's an interesting fact, which may explain my reservations about the Shocking Blue--Valandre's Odin (-40 F) has interior circumference measurements of 153,140,93 (in inches, 60,55,36.5). The Shocking Blue's (-13 degrees) measurements are 166,144,106, (in inches, 65,56.5,41.75).

So the Odin is a much narrower, more mummy-like bag. It seemed to me with the Shocking Blue (and the Mirage), the down was "stretched thin", in the chest region, that the fill there wasn't as plump--maybe because the torso tubes were greater in circumference, and, to keep weight low, the fill wasn't increased proportionately--which wouldn't matter if one wore a jacket. In the Odin, cut narrower, there might not be room to wear much of a jacket, but there'd be less interior air to heat.

This is not, of course, to compare the Odin and S Blue, because they're designed for different temperature ranges, but to suggest that Valandre itself has two different design strategies, with the Odin more "classical", and the S Blue more of a departure--making it easier to wear a jacket, but also more necessary. This might explain their specs; the S Blue is rated 0 F (comfort), -13 (extreme); the Odin, just -40, (extreme)

Edited by swimjay on 11/15/2008 10:03:43 MST.

I just laid out my three main down bags for their monthly airing; my WM Alpenlite Super, my custom ID XPD-II overfill with 47 oz. of down and my Valandre SB. I carefully examined the SB for this and could find NO compartment of that bag that had less down in it than the others, or, struck me as being improperly filled.

A very critical examination of these bags showed me that the quality on all of them is fabulous, not even ONE stitch out of place, high lofting and quick lofting and sound designs. The SB simply uses a level of design that gives results a bit better than the more traditional bags and, to me, that makes it "best", an oftimes meaningless term, anyway.

I prefer a bag that I can move around in, except in really COLD weather when a snug 64" sack works well for me. I do not like bags with trippy little wallet pockets, cunningly slanted baffles or weird zip-in extenders, SIMPLE works best in the bush.

So, my best opinion is that one should choose from these makers and FF based on what you want the bag to do and be assured that you are getting a sack that will last a lifetime for most people. If, you LIKE the concept of the Valandre Shocking Blue, well, both Charlie and I can honestly attest that it is one FINE piece of gear....I was very skeptical, too, when I first heard about it, but, it is as good as Niels says it is, no bullschit.

Edited by Kutenay on 11/17/2008 14:45:02 MST.

Dewey, here's a Trailspace forum post from 2006 which says more clearly what I've been pointing to (perhaps you were in that discussion--there's someone there named Kutenay):

http://www.trailspace.com/forums/backcountry/topics/31916.html

in which the Edward Ripley Duggan says, better than I've succeeded in saying (he's comparing a Shocking Blue he owns to a WM Antelope, one of which I have, and which WM calls a 5 degree F bag):

"The Valandre [Shocking Blue--48 oz, L] is a loose fit, clearly intended for serious layering. I can wear a near expedition-weight parka with room to spare, and I'm not a particularly slender person...In fact, there's almost room for my Antelope [41 oz, L] inside the Shocking Blue...The loft is a tad over six inches at the waist, but much more at the foot and upper chest. The WM [Antelope] is a solid seven inches, but that's evenly distributed at all points in the bag."

So I think that explains my reservations (it seemed to me that the low loft (6") tubes extended up into the chest area, on the bag I tried). I just couldn't see how a bag with 6" of loft in some areas would be warmer than the Antelope, a tighter fitting bag, let alone go to 0 degrees or -13, unless one were essentially supplying more loft by wearing a down jacket. WM only rates their 6" bag (Apache) to 15 degrees. Of course, the greater part of the S Blue's loft, according to the post quoted, was thicker, so you'd think, just taking the bag by itself, and forgetting about its greater interior volume, it would be somewhere between the Antelope and the Apache, (closer to the Antelope?), unless one were wearing a jacket.

But then why pay so much, for a low temperature bag, when you're going to have to supply some of the loft yourself to reach the lower temps? Unless, of course, the extra internal volume is a plus, because one wants the flexibility to be able to wear a parka in the bag without compressing it--which I think is a legitimate design choice, but one should know one is making that choice.

Edited by swimjay on 11/16/2008 21:15:25 MST.

I'm not sure I get your point here, I DID initiate that thread on TS and the person responding gave his opinions, which, btw, I do not agree with.

To compare the WM Antelope to the VSB is not realistic as the Antelope is FAR smaller than the SB. To get a REALISTIC comparison, use the WM Kodiak and THEN you will see that the differences are minimal. As Charlie and I, both of whom actually own and use these various bags, have posted, use whichever one YOU prefer and be happy.

As to cost, that is, to me, a subjective issue as I am concerned with suitability for MY uses and price is the last thing I worry about. If, that were the major criteria here, we would be discussing discount bags such as the "knockoffs" of the SB style sold by MEC.

As to layering in a down bag by wearing a down jacket, this is NOT a wise practice in cold weather camping for various reasons. It IS sometimes used by short term alpinists or those with lots of spare donated gear to cope with sudden weather difficulties, but, I never do this.

I doubt that Niels designed the SB for this and suspect that he made the torso larger to accomodate larger users and thereby developed the most comfortable down bag I have ever slept in.

If, you like a WM Antelope better, good, the SB is not for everyone and each person should buy what he prefers.

Dewey, I appreciate the breadth of your experience in extreme cold, and would be interested to hear your hesitations about layering in a sleeping bag. I can imagine there might be problems with water vapor build-up--a VBL wouldn't protect the jacket, etc.--but I think it's a strategy that works OK with quilts. Or maybe not. I've never been in very cold weather for longer than a week, and even that was above 0.

nm

Edited by vigilguy on 11/17/2008 09:57:33 MST.

"I just couldn't see how a bag with 6" of loft in some areas would be warmer than the Antelope, a tighter fitting bag, let alone go to 0 degrees or -13, unless one were essentially supplying more loft by wearing a down jacket. WM only rates their 6" bag (Apache) to 15 degrees."

James, Sometimes analyzing the specs online just does not cut it.

If I were looking at the Shocking Blue in the store or online, I doubt I'd be convinced that it would keep me warm below zero. BUT IT INDEED DOES, and it has, not only for me but other users as well.

In March of 2007, I took a group of Venturing age youth up cross country skiing and we spent the night up Logan Canyon in Northern Utah. As soon as the sun went behind the mountains, the temp started dropping like a rock. When I went to bed about 10pm, after making sure that all of the youth were faring okay, I checked my Kestral Weather Meter and it was -6F. Not having a chance to drink much or eat much before retiring (that was stupid) due to me tending to others, I recall that I was so dehydrated that my urine burned when going to the bathroom, prior to crawling in my Shocking Blue. I wore a Marmot Driclime windshirt, along with Icebreaker longjohns, and a Woolpower balaclava. The Shocking Blue has a Marie Antoinette collar that really seals the heat in (the antelope does not) and I had that and the hood really cinched down snugly for the night. I remember being amazed at how warm I was at those temps. I awoke at 5:30am to go pee, I checked my Kestral, and it was -20.8F!!!!

So I guess I'm saying that yes, compared to other conventional bags, one would and should be skeptical as to the abilities of the Shocking Blue. But all I can tell you is that it worked for me, in an actual field test environment.

Disclosure: I sell Valandre bags.

One has to be careful evaluating based upon this number. The number of inches of loft is generally based upon total loft of both top and bottom layers, but some use only one side's loft which makes it appear that they get the same warmth with only half the down/loft.

Edited by Quoddy on 11/17/2008 10:46:54 MST.

Dewey, could you clarify why layering in winter bags is a bad idea? I understand dew point/frost can be a concern with more waterproof bivy use in winter but I've haven't experienced it yet between my down jacket & sleeping bag. Then again I haven't hiked more than a week long on winter trips yet. One is already carrying the bulk of a down jacket and the Vlandre bags look plenty roomy and breathable.

Besides, if evaporation/condenstation were really a concern, wouldn't one really need a direct VBL layer between the body & the sleeping bag?

Just wondering...

Edited by prav66 on 11/17/2008 12:49:10 MST.

Gentlemen:

In MOST cold weather situations, I consider layering of down garments and down sleeping bags to be inefficient in respect of warmth for weight considerations for a number of reasons.

The first is that one carries a down jacket that protects/insulates ONLY the torso/head, NOT the legs which are the greatest region of heat loss on your body. So, to really insulate against cold, one should also carry a lower bag or use "salopettes". This, then, is FAR more inefficient than simply using a single bag rated to the lowest ambient temps. you will encounter, as the bag-garments combo is heavier.

The down jacket retains moisture from your day use and can/will introduce this into your sleeping cocooon if used to bolster bag warmth; again, this is highly inefficient and not desireable, IMHO.

The jacket will be crushed inside the bag and not deliver it's supposed insulation value as well as picking up further moisture which cannot escape through the several layers of fabric/insulation. To me, this is just a waste of pack weight and also uncomfortable.

FABRIC in your bag/garment shell is a CONDUCTOR of heat/cold, so, using a system with extra layers of fabric is NOT as efficient as using a bag suited to the conditions you are camping in. This is one reason why, after a couple years of use, I sold my Swedish double expedition down bag, used at -30*F several times and bought an original Marmot GT-down bag which weighed the same as the Swede one and was considerably warmer, comfy at -30*F and that, believe me, is friggin COLD!

I can see using a purpose-built bag and down duvet for short bivies on alpine-style climbs; this is what the Valandre LaFayette seems designed for with it's considerable girth. The SB is TOO restrictive for this and is, IMHO, best suited for an "all-around" bag for colder regions; it is as close to "perfect" for BC as I ever expect to see.

Last night, I tested my ID-XPD-II custom winter bag and my VSB side by side to see just which of these is most comfortable. The ID bag is, as with all of their gear, a simply superb bag and very comfy; BUT, the VSB is even MORE comfy and weighs 3 lbs opposed to 4.5 lbs. I will reiterate, I have never seen a bag this good and I expect to use mine for 85% of my trips from now on; I will keep my ID bag for sleeping inside my Kifaru tipi and Hilleberg Saivo tent on long cold trips where I am flown/packed in and like the width and Endurance shell for condensation drips.

That said, I could EASILY do ALL my treks, camps, fishing, hunting and traveling with the Valandre Shocking Blue and I have never had a bag before that I felt that about.

Well, here's a thought:

If, with the Shocking Blue, one doesn't need to layer to be safe, or, in the experiences cited, even comfortable, down to -13 degrees F, if the collar is that effective, why not make a bag without all that extra interior volume? I'm sure there'd be a market for it; the much smaller WM Antelope feels generous to me, and there's probably a big market of people of similar medium build. If the VSB were of similar internal dimensions to the Antelope, it might be significantly lighter, maybe 4 to 6 ounces.

That would really be the "knockout punch"-- a bag good to -13, 18 degrees colder than the Antelope, that weighed 42 ounces; I'd buy one in a heartbeat. It might even cost a little less to make. Then, when it wasn't quite so cold, one could treat it like a regular bag, as there'd be much less interior air volume to heat and reheat, without even having to have the Marie Antoinette collar locked down.

The SB comes in three sizes now, small, med. and large, which is what I have and prefer, due to the roomy cut and comfort. So, you CAN get one for smaller persons, regular dudes and Sasquatches with 19" necks, 49" chests and shoulders like a Neanderthal....me, for example.

It would seem that Niels and his crew have thought of everything, must be the French influence as they have always made some of the very best mountain gear, Galibier, Val'D'Or Eiger Darbelle boots, Jamet down clothing, Millet rucks and clothing and Simond ice tools, for some examples.

The French are a pretty impressive bunch, we "Brits" have been fighting them for centuries, but, we still respect them and boy, they KNOW how to make "vino"!

OK, you guys have been so persuasive I've just ordered a VSB. But I have to warn you, Dewey, if I fall asleep at -13 degrees and freeze to death, I'm coming back from the dead to Kutenay to kick your butt. Wait, did you say a 19" neck? In that case I'm going to hire Les Stroud, who's so tough that "Superman wears 'Les Stroud' pajamas to bed'" (BPL post) to come up there and kick your butt!

It definitely helped that Prolite Gear was having a 20% off coupon.

Sadly, this only managed to bring the cost of the bag to roughly its retail price of two years ago. I'm not sure if the lower prices from having the bags sewn in Tunis have worked their way into the system yet (Charles, do you know?), but the plunging value of the Euro relative to the dollar may give us some hope that Valandre prices will drop.

The new Bloody Mary may be an effort to bring to market a product that overlaps somewhat with the Shocking Blue, and better hits the market "sweetspot"--the online reviews I've read complain that conditions haven't been cold enough to test the lower limits of the Blue--but that costs less to make and can be sold in higher volume.

Edited by swimjay on 11/20/2008 15:59:21 MST.

To answer my own question, the online post I'd read about Valandre's sewing moving to Tunis was dated 2006. So probably any effect on pricing has already moved through the system.

James,
I was much in the same situation as you earlier this year and finally took the plunge and purchased a Valandre Mirage 3/4 Zip Bag. I contacted Dewey and Charles and their advice was on target and true in every regards to the Valandre product.
I think you will be very impressed upon receiving your bag. Although the Mirage is not rated to the temperatures as the Shocking Blue it has the same anotomical shaped baffles and footbox. Upon receiving my Mirage, I compared it to my WM Ultralight Super.
Shell/Fabric: the fabric Valandre uses is softer and allows the down to loft more rapidly than any previous bag I've had. This fabric also seems to repel water better than my WM shell.
Hood: I prefer the adjustability of the hood which uses a snap mechanism.
The stitching was impeccable.
I was initially concerned w/ the extreme taper from hips to foot in this bag. I'm a side sleeper and found this cut very efficient and not restricting at all. It drapes over me better than any previous bag - probably due to its baffle/cut design.
After a season of use, the only aspect I prefer on the WM bag is the zipper tape as it is much stiffer. The Valandre Zipper works very well however.
On the Olympic Peninsula, the Mirage has become my mid-spring to mid-late fall season bag.

Enjoy, Christopher

Only part of the process is in France and the society has been danish for quite a few years.

However their goose bag are still great ( i would avoid the duck ones as for the same price you can buy a goose bag from some good brands)

I am using a mirage ( i prefered the short zip ) up to 0/-5°C with a fleece or a cocoon vest at -5°c. but my wife wouldnt use one under 5°C.
I like the cut : enough room to put some spare clothes for the torso area, less room for the legs as i dont have layers for them at those temps.

Up to now my wife and i owned

4 valandre bags
2 triple zero
1 lafuma

lafuma bags arent that good and when you see they are stored compressed even in the factory shop..

of the valandré bags we are using the 2 mirages, the swing/classic 700 ones werent that good.

triple zero is a cottage gear maker , his down is at least as good as Valandré, and his bags worth a serious look.

Edited by Fre49 on 11/23/2008 03:36:00 MST.

(This might be a bit long. Please read to the end before drawing conclusions.)

The Shocking Blue arrived Friday. The first thing that strikes one is that this is not a bag made to hang in a gear shop and look plumply seductive. The fabric holds creases, more than any other I've seen used in sleeping bags, and, laid out with no one in it, the anatomically shaped baffles collapse slightly and form miniature canyons that run the length of the bag.

The color, as people have noted, is no longer shocking (or Lego) blue, but a reserved grayish-blue. Of course this has nothing to do with the bag's function, but may reflect an evolution in the designer's sensibility.

There's a degree of intricacy to the bag's construction that's unusual. The hood, the collar, the long (and, by BPL standards, probably a bit weight-expensive) zipper storm flap, all seem thought-through and chosen to create a product that will work in an extreme environment. By contrast, most other bags have a more unified look, but don't look nearly as "tough" or "functional". The wrinkly fabric choice is consistent with this--it looks like it will loft better than 1.1 oz nylon, maybe not quite as well as 1 oz Pertex Quantum, but be tougher than either. Breathability seems between the two, but of course I can't tell how it works with water vapor.

The hood is superb. It adjusts easily and precisely. In the "locked down" position, the down of the hood is, as far as I can tell, completely uncompressed, and the lower portion of the opening moves naturally to below ones mouth so that one isn't breathing moisture into the down.

When one is in the bag, it does collapse around ones body, removing excess air, much more than I remember of the first generation fabric bags, and more than the "bottle-shaped" WM Antelope or FF SnowBunting (rated by their manufacturers at 5 and 0 degrees, respectively), not quite as much as the Nunatak Arc expedition (rated 5 degrees), which is of course a quilt.

The down tubes from the foot box to the knee are quite plumply filled, as are the tubes of the hood. Baffle height in the first few tubes of the foot box seems to be 3 or 3+, dropping to 2 or 2+ in the knee region, then rising again as one goes up the bag. Baffle spacing is about 5.5", with the two of the three chest baffles being 6" and the third 6 1/4". These wider-spaced baffle areas above the chest give the impression of being less fully filled, (and explain some of my early reservations) but perhaps that's just because the down has more room to move around. In contrast, the FF Snow Bunting, Nunatak Arc Expedition, and WM Antelope use, in the bags I have access to, spacing of 5" and height more consistently around 3"-3.5" (Nunatak). (The baffle height numbers are very tentative, and could be dead wrong; one definitely has the sense that the baffle height is greater with the American bags, though, with the Nunatak's being the tallest.) (Less baffle material, all other things being equal, means smaller stuffed size.)

The down feels quite different--when one gently collapses a tube, between the palms of ones hand, in feels gossamer and unspringy. (The Nunatak down feels very similar, maybe a bit springier). The WM and FF down are much springier, resisting compression, pushing back against ones palms.

And here we're getting, I think, to the crux of the issue. In order for the Valandre to be a significantly warmer bag than, for example, the WM Antelope, it must rely on its collar and its down quality. Its draft tubes are no deeper, nor is its down weight/cubic inch greater, and may be less. Its total down load is very similar--28 oz in the Antelope, 27.5 in the SB, size large. But the SB is significantly wider in the chest region, so the down there is necessarily, and perceptibly, less dense than in the chest region of the Antelope.

Valandre claims their fill power is 850 plus. (In fact, judging by its feel, it may be significantly plus.) There's an extraordinarily useful, but occasionally quite technical forum thread here:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=16189&disable_pagination=1

(In particular, read the contributions of Richard Nisley.)


from which I take away the following:

First, for a given quality of down, the density with which it is stuffed, within the normal densities of stuffed and overstuffed bags, does not affect the down's insulating quality per unit weight. In other words, the same volume of bag, stuffed 10% fuller, will be 10% warmer. A given weight of down will not be made much warmer by letting it loft higher.

Second, the effectiveness of down as an insulating material, relative to its weight, is a function of its "fractal" quality, the number of ends each piece of down has. At one end of the spectrum, a strand of synthetic has two ends; at the other end, very very fine down might have way more ends than very fine down. In the middle, feathers, or feather-like down, "spend" too much of their weight in their quills, which don't grab the air. Down works, after all, not as a magic "heat shield", but as a damper of the moving-air cells that would carry heat away from the body.

Third (and this is purely my contribution, so if it's wrong, blame me): we know that down is adaptive. When warmed, for example, down uncoils--put your bag in the sun to dry out, and it plumps up. After drying, put it in the shade, and it collapses slightly.

And here's the speculative part. Maybe down is even more adaptive than that. Maybe down can "sense" heat differential, and become better-insulating as the temperature differential between the goose's body and and the environment decreases. There would definitely be an evolutionary advantage to down that was so "designed." When the goose is flying, or running around, it doesn't want to over-heat. Some of this regulation is, of course, supplied by the cover feathers, which can be made more open or closed by changes in the gooses skin. (Think of "goose bumps.")

And maybe, the higher the quality of the down, the more adaptive. I do know that in a 16 oz Nunatak quilt (like the current Arc Specialist), sleeping on a 3 oz Gossamer Gear pad, I was OK--not warm, but OK--down to an in-tent temperature of 14 degrees. But with that same quilt, I'm not boiling at 40 degrees. Similarly, one can be in the SB or the Arc Expedition at 60 degrees, with everything but the SB's hood cinched down, without boiling--just barely too warm, but OK, at least for 20 to 30 minutes. In contrast, I quickly start to feel too hot in other Mfgs low temp bags, at 60 degrees.

So the upshot of all this is that I'm inclined to trust the reports of the other posters here who've used Valandre bags in extreme conditions, but won't know for sure until I try the SB myself. To that end I'm going to try to find a -15 degree walk-in commercial food freezer, and will let you know. If things go horribly wrong, you may find me ground up in some supermarket as sausage.

Another note--one retailer I spoke with suggested that, as European consumption patterns are different from ours, there's an incentive to make items with a wider range of application. The SB, and Mirage, have greater torso volume so that one can layer, and, by the logic of Valandre's primary markets, it doesn't make sense to make "non-layering", more mummy-like bags as well. In another thread this same explanation is given to account for the preference among Europeans for double-walled tents . We think nothing of owning two or three tents, for different conditions; they only own one.

Edited by swimjay on 11/24/2008 10:22:59 MST.

As the man falling from the top of the Empire State Building said when he passed the 34th floor.

I haven't been able to find a -15 walk-in freezer, but a few days ago I spent 1 1/2 hours in one that was between -5 and 0 deg F, in the SB, on an old 2" Thermarest mattress which was laid directly on the steel floor of the freezer. Because the freezing unit was constantly on, the air was never still, though it wasn't actually windy.

For the test I wore only very lightweight merino longjohns and tops (Ibexes lightest zip-neck top, not sure of the bottom.), no socks and no hat.

By the time I had everything arranged, was undressed and got into the bag, my fingers were losing feeling and getting clumsy. I had a moment of concern I wouldn't be able to hook up the Marie Antoinette collar, but that went OK.

The weakest link was definitely the Thermarest. The only place I felt an active chill was at the base of my spine, where the down and the mat were maximally compressed. Feeling around for cold spots, I didn't find any unless I slid my hand under the zipper tube, where it was quite cool. In feeling around, I'd sometimes inadvertently lift and let fall the top of the bag, which "puffed in" some cold air somehow (or "puffed out" warm, which was replaced by cold), perhaps through the teeth of the zipper.

I'd been concerned by the seeming lower density of down in the chest tubes, but that didn't seem to be a problem.

Even though the bag under the soles of my feet was directly on the steel floor (past the end of the mat), they were fine, which was amazing.

The hood and collar were perfect. For a while my lips were cold, but as I was breathing only through my nose, I was able to slide the bag up slightly and then they were fine.

So so far, so good. The hood/collar (head, shoulders) are great, definitely good for 10 deg lower, as is the region from knee to feet. Potential weak spots might still be the chest tubes, and possibly, depending on how the zipper was sitting on the ground or pad, some subtle leakage past the zipper draft tube. But even a very modest down or fleece sweater seems like it would address that. With a very good mat, like a Stephenson DAM or a full-length Exped model 7, the bag might have been actually toasty. As it was, it was coolly comfortable (not completely a bad thing, as that might mean less water vapor from insensible perspiration). But there was no sense that the temperature in the bag was dropping, and I warmed up within 10 minutes of getting into it.

The taffeta lining was silky and drapey, and the bag did a good job collapsing around me to reduce the amount of air that needed to be heated.

The overall feel was one of spacious luxury. On ones back, ones arms could lay quite naturally by ones side without feeling cramped.

To be fair, a FF Snow Bunting w/ 800 down and two ounces of overfill (43.5 oz total) passed this same test some time ago, without feeling quite as luxurious/spacious, or having quite as much room for layering. The SB, a medium, measured out at 50 0z., a couple of ounces over spec.

I'm looking forward to finding conditions this winter that will let me test the bag further.

The SB does, it seems, use very good down, so good that, toether with its collar, it can get away with a lesser amount of down per square inch of bag surface, when compared to similarly rated bags from other manufacturers. It "spends" some of this potential weight savings by being much larger in girth. For example, in the chest region, I measure the SB having a exterior girth of 69--70"; in contrast, the Valandre La Fayette, the WM Antelope, and the FF Snow Bunting are 62--63". The SB is similarly generous in its length--my medium measures about 84", exterior, and internally, even when everything is cinched down, there's no sense of compression. If one "hitches up" the bag, to take up excess length, one gets the sense that the bag gets slightly warmer.

So all in all, a generous bag, made using excellent materials, not a bag designed to pare away every last ounce, but one which probably has, as a result, a wide window of performance.

Included with the shipment was a bottle of Nikwax down wash, which I guess one uses when one goes to the Valaundry.

Well genthemen, I am Niels, the designer at Valandre.

James Sweeney touches a essential point talking about our down quality, and several others have notised this in actual use. (Yes Sweeney, impressing to read your stuff!)

So, what so special about this down?

You need to take into consideration, that geese is a migrating palmede. Twice a year, the birds travel long distance (North/South).

In order to be physically capable to under go the migration, all migrating palmedes, "over eat" and stock the energy as fat in the body and specially in the liver.

As the goose "fills up the tank", they produce and prepare the feathers and isolating down, to be capable to fly long distance. As the birds take of, they are in a state of maximim power.

Now, what is interesting is, to know that the flight leveles can be pritty HIGH!

Example: Asian goose crossing the Himmalayas at 27-30000ft, a vulture getting hit by a plane in Africa at a levle a bit below 39.000ft and Swans detected by radar "crusing" at 112mph between 24.000ft and 25.500ft, between Iceland and Scottland.

Hence, the birds are capable to migrate in temperatures down to -40°F. (Even lower!)

Now, the down qualitys used by us, is a "Gray Goose" 95/05 from the south west of France. It's a 100% pure "Fatty" quality delivered from "The Gray Goose of Toulouse".

As you know, the French go nuts about "Foie Gras". They stuff the birds in order to get a Fat goose with a big liver.

Seen from our perspective, they start the process of preparing the bird for a migration. And as the birds are slaughtered, the Feather/Down is in top shape.

Sorted, treated and bla bla bla, this is the quality that you find in our products.

Finally, I just want everyboddy to know, that this is NOT a tentative to create publisity of any kind. It's simply a need from my side to share interesting and essential technical info.

Best regards from France, to all at BL.

Niels