I have started a Thread over here on the "Make Your Own Gear" Forum. I am interested in this stove as I like a "remote style" canister stove. I am going to look for an Xtreme stove this afternoon and if I like it in person I will get one.



Collectively (that means all of us putting our heads together) we should be able to move Curts ideas to a dependable solution for a stand set-up. Slick maybe, dependable a must, light a given.

Someting to think about for a good follow-on project might be "What can be make out of the empty canister" ?????

Earlier Posts about using or modifing the Coleman Xtreme Stove moved here.
===============================
POSTED BY
Curt Peterson
(curtpeterson - M)
SUBJECT Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister ON 11/11/2005 12:29:46 MST
 POST REPLY

"Canister stoves SMOKE white gas for short burn times, but long burns in cold weather, not so hot no mo."

Side by side on Mount Adams at ~10,000 doing nothing but melting snow, the Xtreme SMOKED a Whisperlite. That was 6 or so years ago. I haven't used anything since that can even touch the Xtreme for snow melting. Canisters are lighter, stove is the same weight as white gas, they're more fuel efficient, and you can't spill the fuel. I've modified one from the original 11 ounces down to about 7 ounces, making it an even better deal. It's the only stove I'd consider for snow melting.

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POSTED BY
kevin davidson
(kdesign - M)
SUBJECT Stove and fuel --modified Xtreme ON 11/11/2005 14:26:59 MST
 POST REPLY

Curt-- can you tell us how you modified your stove to get it down to 7 oz.?

Also, can you figure out approx. fuel consumption for 2 1/2 days based on your winter/alpine experience?

Thanks.
KD

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POSTED BY
kevin davidson
(kdesign - M)
SUBJECT Sleeping Pads to eliminate legsicle fears ON 11/11/2005 15:04:42 MST
 POST REPLY

Based on everyone's concerns and Ryan's experience, the following Pad system is up for discussion---
Nightlight Torso Pad 3.7 oz. used over Nightlightpad(GossamerGear) 19.5x59x3/4" at 7.5 oz.
Oware pad cut down to 12x24x1/4" at .85 oz.
Last doubled for feet and lower legs.
Total weight is 12.05 oz.

A cut down Nightlight pad could be substituted for
the folding torso pad.

I almost forgot--the small "foot" pad also doubles as an insulation pad for whatever stove system is employed.

Edited by kdesign at 11/12/2005 12:08:22 MST.
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POSTED BY
Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf - M)
SUBJECT Re: Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister ON 11/11/2005 15:16:15 MST
 POST REPLY

Curt is correct about canister stoves, they work best in high altitudes, but if they get cold they tend to die. (has happend to me at about 10-15 degrees) I dont know if there is any canister cozies for sale, I know Bill Fornshell has made one. do you think one of the antigravity gear pot cozys is a comparable size for a canister?


But I still think cooking over fires may be a good idea (it saves all this confusion and mabey half a pound or so, and Ryan is willing to do it!!!!!!)

Edited by ryanf at 11/11/2005 15:41:02 MST.
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POSTED BY
Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf - M)
SUBJECT canister cozys??? ON 11/11/2005 15:32:17 MST
 POST REPLY

Any way,

a Anti gravity gear 3cup bowl cozy may work for a MSR 8oz feul canister.(modified)

and a mini solo cozy modified may work for the smaller snow peak canisters


according to Bill you use these in conjunction with a chemical heat pack.

Edited by ryanf at 11/11/2005 15:53:39 MST.
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POSTED BY
Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1 - M)
SUBJECT Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister) ON 11/11/2005 19:19:59 MST
 POST REPLY

Ryan F,

The Coleman Xtreme Stove is a Liquid Feed Gas stove. It is not nearly as subject to cold as the usual Canister type Gas Stove.

Rich

POSTED BY
Michael Martin
(MikeMartin - M)
SUBJECT Re: canister cozys??? ON 11/11/2005 19:38:23 MST
 POST REPLY

Ryan F writes:

>> a...cozy may work for a...feul canister... According to Bill you use these in conjunction with a chemical heat pack.

Ryan F-

You have a fertile mind! You do well in representing the next generation of lightweight backpackers. Maybe you'll follow in Ryan J's, or Bill F.'s footsteps...

Bill's chemical heat pack is key if you want this canister cozy idea to work. Canisters cool from the inside as the fuel evaporates. Without an external source of heat, a cozy would make them even colder.

btw, this is one big advantage to the Powermax canisters as the liquid feed system causes the evaporation (and related cooling) to occur outside the canister. (The other big advantage is that the Propane in the mixture doesn't boil off first.)

Best Regards,

-Mike M.

Edited by MikeMartin at 11/11/2005 19:45:34 MST.
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POSTED BY
Curt Peterson
(curtpeterson - M)
SUBJECT NEW Re: Stove and fuel --modified Xtreme ON 11/12/2005 11:40:32 MST
 POST REPLY

Actually, getting it down to just the burner and control valve gets you to 5.7 ounces. At that weight I'd be tempted to choose it over a Pocket Rocket/Snowpeak stove because I prefer the remote canister and the lighter/recyclable canisters.

But, 5.7 ounces includes no stand setup at all and it's a pain to get the cartridges on.

How you add weight back to gain these functions is up to you. I've used a Pocket Rocket 3-leg stand inverted as a stand and it works great - adds an ounce or so. Using tent stakes or a mesh stand that can hold the pot would keep the weight just under 7 ounces.

I'm not a big fan of that setup, though, so I'm working on other ideas. Something that could support the burner and a pot that weighs an ounce or less would be perfect. Very, very possible - I just haven't put the time into figuring it out yet.

By the way, not sure who mentioned it about cartridges in cold, but the Coleman Powermax setup should NOT be considered the same as regular cartridges. It's a different setup altogether. Cut one of these canisters open and there's a metal (brass?) tube inside that runs the length of the cartridge. Not only does this allow liquid fuel to be drawn, but it gets every last drop out of the canister. Empty canisters from use weigh the same as empty canisters that have been punctured and drained.

If Coleman would come up with a F1 Ultralight style stove that used the Powermax system, I'd be first in line to get one.

-Curt

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POSTED BY
kevin davidson
(kdesign - M)
SUBJECT NEW modified Xtreme--the Curt way ON 11/12/2005 11:53:20 MST
 POST REPLY

Thanks, Curt. I'm personally intrigued. I would have to get my hand on one to seriously tackle a solution. Perhaps sometime this Winter, I'll do so. Someone with a metal shop like Bill F (if he were interested in the problem) would probably come up with a slick answer.

Any ideas about fuel consumption over 2 1/2 days
(based on the nature of Ryan's trip)?

I wonder if RJ would be interested in using this stove w/ one of your suggested mods for the Winter UL trip?

Edited by kdesign at 11/12/2005 12:10:35 MST.
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Links listed above will no longer work.

Edited by bfornshell on 11/17/2005 11:52:32 MST.

I wonder if a couple of short lengths of those ti rods would work somehow... alternately small scraps of aluminum arrow heads... as long as they are below the burner it might / should work. especially if you add a foil 'reflector' to reflect the heat upwards...

Hi Bill-

I'm glad to see you're taking this up...

Here's an idea just to get you started -- feel free to trash it, of course and do your own thing.

I think a 3 legged support made out of Ti sheet similar in design (but different in dimensions -- with longer legs and without the tablet tray) to the Esbit Wing Stove on Thru-hiker.com and Zenstove.net would work well. It could screw into the burner assembly easily and would weigh maybe 15g.

The heat shield cup, spring, and washer on the stove could all be tossed. The new stand would screw on between the pre-heat tube and the gas jet.

As we speak, I'm actually staring at the Ti sheet I got from thru-hiker months ago for just this project. But, my metal working skills are kind of weak, and I've yet to start building.

On the valve end of things, I completely agree with Curt P. You can remove the magnesium heat sink around the valve and save about 1.6oz. But then the canisters are *really* difficult to attach. I'm still looking for an elegant solution to this one.

Good Luck.

Best Regards,

-Mike

[Disclaimer: modifying a stove will undoubtedly void the manufacturer's warranty, and may create a fire or explosion hazard. Proceed at your own risk.]

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/12/2005 19:24:45 MST.

Well I can tell you one thing so far, "now you tell me" hahahahah
[Disclaimer: modifying a stove will undoubtably void the manufacturer's warranty, and may create a fire or explosion hazard. Proceed at your own risk.]

But maybe not. Coleman sell's what they call a "Trail Maintenance Kit" and if the owner is allowed to replace the parts in the "Kit" then I haven't "voided" my warranty yet. Also if something happens to the stove and I can replace any parts necessary to make it look like it did when I bought it I don't think I have "voided" my warranty. But do I care about the warranty, NO.

I have weighed each part of the stove and will post my weights later. I agree that my Titanium from Thru-Hiker will play a big part in the Diet I put this stove on.

I will use the name for the parts as found in the Coleman Parts List for this stove.
Parts to replace with lighter ones:

Part list item 4 - Leg-Grate set of 3: Weight 62gr/2.19oz

Part list item 2 - Burner Bowl : Weight 25.2gr/0.88oz

Part list item 8 - Valve & Hose Assembly - 135gr/4.78oz - Dissemble and examine for any weight reduction possibilities. If you remove this and find some other way to get the fuel from the bottle to the stove I don't think the stove will work. I will look to see if I can remove any of the outter case of the valve and reduce some weight that way. I will see if I can lighten the fuel control knob.

Weight of Stove out of the box: 311.5gr/10.99oz
Weight of Parts: Numbers from parts list
Item 1-35.8gr
Item 2-25.2gr
Item 3-2.2gr
Item 4-Set of Three Legs 62gr
Item 5,6a,6b,& 7-44.3gr
Item 6c,6d,6e&8-135gr
Item 9 -7gr

PowerMax 300gr Bottle - 399.6gr


As a side note: Colemans idea of recycle(ing) the bottle is to give you a "Greem Key" to puncture the EMPTY fuel cartridge. The Green Key works like a "Church Key" can opener. I will turn my empty's into small stove(s)/parts.

I bought my stove at a local Sportsmans Wharehouse, they also sell the PowderMax fuel and a local Academy Sports & Outdoors store sells the PowerMax fuel but not the stove.

Edited by bfornshell on 11/12/2005 19:22:33 MST.

>> Well I can tell you one thing so far, "now you tell me" hahahahah.

Bill -- that wasn't aimed at you. :)

(I must've been a lawyer in a past life or something. Either that, or I'm just naturally paranoid.)

Best,

-Mike

do you really need the stove or can you make a pot suport and light the end of the hose when you turn on the feul? (modify hose to point upward towards pot)

nothing fancy, but may work?

(dont sue me if it dosent :-)>)

Edited by ryanf on 11/12/2005 20:06:08 MST.

Ryan F writes:

>> can you make a pot suport and light the end of the hose when you turn on the feul?

Another clever idea, Ryan F!

Unfortunately, unlike an alcohol stove, the fuel must be precisely mixed with air before combustion. Otherwise, you'll get partial combustion and an uncontrolled flame.

Keep the ideas coming though. I like how you think outside-the-box!

-Mike

Oh this is going to be really fun.
I'm in.

BPL Ti rods won't work for legs to support a 2L pot, they are too thin (today's project)

Howevah...

1/8" ti rod does work, it has plenty of stiffness. I used 1/8" ti on my version of the LAAF kit:

This is the LAAF Gear (now defunct) upgrade kit to the Whisperlite. The pot supports use 1/8" steel rod stock:



(Browse the old LAAF Gear website at the Wayback Machine)

For the Extreme, adding legs like this might require a tight radius to be put into the ti rod to attach it (slide it) to the shaft, and maybe the strategic placement of drilled holes or dents to keep it in place once the legs are spread.

McMaster has ti rod stock ($$!). Search "titanium rod" there, click 1/8" dia, there are two types: Grade 2 ($, easier to bend) and Grade 5 ($$, stronger).

not sure if the current legs would work for smaller pots (???), if not, what about changing the shape of the legs to also function as a pot support too?

that's all for now. gotta' run out for the AM. can't wait to see how this develops.

oh...and LAAF is an acronym for what, pray tell?

Edited by pj on 11/13/2005 05:50:12 MST.

In a recent exchange between Bill and Mike:

Bill wrote:

> OK, so what is the "valve" thing that lets the
> PowerMax canister connect to the Coleman Xtreme for?
> There maybe a better way to say this but the valve
> must be important.  Are the fins really necessary?  I
> want to trim them off to reduce some weight.  I am
> going to take it apart and have a look inside but I
> need to get a very small Phillips screwdriver first.
Bill
========================================================
Hi Bill-

Yeah, that magnesium valve cover weighs 1.6oz!

I've run my stove successfully without it, so I bet you could cut it
down or eliminate altogether.  I'm just guessing, but I think the fins
reduce sputtering during startup.  After lighting, the stove needs to
run for a few seconds at low output to warm-up the pre-heat tube.  I
think the fins allow the fuel to vaporize right in the valve assembly
during this low-output startup time.

There is one other piece of the stove that makes me curious.  Inside
the rigid brass tube is a length of wire.  I wonder if its supposed to
provide some kind of pressure regulation, but I've never been able to
find out exactly what it does.  Even a call to Coleman only revealed
that "it's part of the generator...".

Cheers, -Mike
========================================================
Hi Mike,  Funny you mentioned that little "length of
wire" inside the brass tube.  It is 9.3cm long and is
1/16" or close gage.  I am sure Coleman's has an
approved way to remove it and I have another way.  I
connected my gas bottle to the Valve thing with the
knob opened a little but not connected to the stove.
Well, you know how a blow dart works. I am glad it
wasn't pointed at me. Twang, might be a good word to
describe the event.  That was the second funny thing
to happen today.

That little piece of rod does reduce the hole size in
the brass fitting that the "heat tube" is connected
to. You think Coleman engineer's were smart enough to
come up with a way to regulate the gas flow like I do
with "jets" in my big Holley carburetors? 

Have you taken the valve assembly apart?  I think it
might act like a carburetor.  Tomorrow I will get a
smaller screw driver and open it up.

Someone somewhere said that a Snow Peak 700 Ti cup was
the best size/thing to use to melt snow.  What do you
or anyone that has melted a lot of snow or ice think
is a good size pot .  I have only melted ice but ice
or snow may be about the same. 

I am thinking about using the Xtreme burner in a
home-made Jet-Boil like stove.  Designed with melting
snow and ice as the primary task and cooking just
because it will. 

Bill

Bill said,
"Someone somewhere said that a Snow Peak 700 Ti cup was the best size/thing to use to melt snow. "

With such a stove, it would be a shame to have it only support such a small pot (if any support idea was dedicated to something that small). For snow melting, bigger and broader is better (to a point)-- I use anywhere from 1 -3 L pots. In small pots. you have to keep feeding snow to get appreciable amounts of water. Broader pots (assuming a good flame spread) allow the snow to melt faster.

Glad you're on the case, Bill. I like the rod stock idea for pot support--I had been thinking along the lines of the MSR Dragonfly configuration, but what Ryan shows is simpler.

Do you have milling capabilities? I'll share a possible idea, if you do.

Edited by kdesign on 11/13/2005 12:15:48 MST.

Nice picture. I was going to post a similar pic today - glad someone beat me to it.

My current setup includes #1, #5 (with spring removed), and #8 (with the big metal block removed). That's it.

As I mentioned earlier, I have put a Pocket Rocket tri-support upside down onto #5 (required a little mild dremel work to widen the hole - didn't effect use for the Pocket Rocket, by the way - in fact, all my changes so far are completely reversible). This will support the stove just fine. I'll post a pic later.

For pot support I've just rolled a windscreen and used that. Works fine on the bench, but wouldn't want to use it in the backcountry.

Ti rods could work out. I've messed with a coat hanger and come up with a couple things, but my creative juices weren't in high gear and I didn't come up with anything good.

I think the pot/stove support is a relatively simple problem to figure out. A Mo-Go type thing could work, or a Ti-Pod assembly maybe.

The bigger problem will be the fuel bottle attachment. It's a pain without that metal block. Possible, but a pain. I've thought about cutting the block with a hacksaw so just the bottle flare would be kept. This would probably get it down to .2 or .3 ounces I figure, but it goes against my "reversible" plan. Maybe some kind of "key" would work. Essentially it just needs something that can hold the plastic very firmly while the bottle is pressed/twisted on. It rips my fingers apart to use them, so something else needs to be found.

By the way, I'm guessing you know this but there is a smaller fuel bottle. The one you show (10.6 oz. fuel??) is pretty huge. The small one serves as plenty for all but the longest trips or snow-melting intensive trips.

Glad folks are picking this up! I've been working on it for a bit and was running out of steam. Multiple minds certainly are better...

-Curt

For just the fin function--assuming they really are
necessary--- what about using alum.or copper foil wrapped
around a reduced valve assembly ( stock magnesium block milled down to remove fins and beyond). Although, one wonders if in milling the somewhat flammable magnesium, a conflaguration could occur? Or perhaps foil around what Curt suggests (retaining just the bottle flare).
The foil could be shaped to form fins, compacted in places as a heat sink, whatever you like.

Edited by kdesign on 11/13/2005 12:47:29 MST.

x

Edited by curtpeterson on 11/13/2005 13:31:04 MST.

Sorry about that - trying to figure out the picture posting thing...

Edited by curtpeterson on 11/13/2005 13:05:54 MST.

Here's the completely stripped stove

And the inverted Pocket Rocket

And with a Peizo just for kicks

very useful pictures, Curt
can you do a close-up of just the stripped valve assembly for benefit of those of us who don't own the stove?

thanks

Edited by kdesign on 11/13/2005 13:44:44 MST.

Hi everyone,
FYI,Campmor has the Xtreme stove "on sale" for $49.97. I'm not sure if this is a deal, but I thought I'd post it anyway.
Paul

I did talk to Campmor a few days ago but by the time I add shipping I don't save much vs buying local. Two local store have the 300 gr canisters and one of the stores sells it at $2.99. I think that is a bargan but have never seem the smaller canister for sale. I haven't been able to find the smaller canister anywhere near me.

I think the Coleman Outlet Stores sell the Xtreme at the Campmor price and this weekend coming up they are having a big Tent Sale with most of their stuff on sale.

Paul and Bill,

I think that this is the normal price for Campmor. I bought mine (for that price) at the store and picked up the larger cannisters as well for $4.99 each I believe in July. I am not sure if they have the smaller canisters. But, if Bill was able to get the smaller cannisters for $2.99 each, I believe that to be a very good price.

Rich

Bill,

I will be very interested in the modifications for the Coleman Xtreme that you come up with. Hopefully, at least some of them will be simple enough for even me without the right tools to make.

Rich

I can buy the large (300gr) PowerMax canister for $2.99. If you have a Sportsmans Warehouse near you that is where I bought mine.

Bill,

We don't have any Sportsman's Warehouse in Eastern PA. One will open in Pittsburg on November 23, but that is 400 miles away. $2.99 for the 300 g canister sounds like a great price. As I indicated, Campmor's price when purchased last was $4.99.

Rich

Richard, Don't ask me how many I bought at the $2.99 price. I can say that I did leave one for the next person.

There has been a good Thread on the Xtreme stove at the backpackinglight yahoo group the last couple of days. Information a little on the technical side but not to deep. I have learned a few good things about how the stove works.

I have decided to build my stove/stand set-up to take one of my Trangia cook pots. I have two that are about the same size (1.5L & 1.75L) but one is a little deeper. I might go to a Titanium pot of the same size later.

Mike, your pictures are great.

Edited by bfornshell on 11/13/2005 20:19:39 MST.

Bill--from what I read from Mike M. over in Yahoo Groups and taken with Curt's own cutting to the bone--- would you say that the biggest weight reduction possibilities, apart from ditching the Magnesium fin housing, would be in creating a Ti stand for the burner assembly? Or can you fabricate lighter parts for the assembly, as well? Is the burner bowl a throwaway?

Edited by kdesign on 11/13/2005 22:56:51 MST.

Hi Kevin, Lets start with the Burner Bowl. The stock burner bowl weighs 25.2gr. I have made a replacement out of aluminum that weighs 6.3gr. Is it a throw away, with my 6.3gr version, not yet. Will my lightweight version do what the heavier stock item did I don't know yet. It might melt.

The Valve & Hose Assembly. I still need to take this apart and see what is inside it. then I will see how much I can trim it to reduce it's weight of 135gr. Because I am working on this stove as a primary tool for melting ice/snow at a very low temperature I don't want to degrad the ability to attach the canister to the gas line and control the stove between 20 degrees F and -20 degrees F. At this temperature you will need to do everything in gloves or mitts. More on this later. It would be nice to reduce the Valve assembly by 1/3.

How this stove looks when I am finished is still not clear. If you think of the Jet-Boil as a stove system I want my finished product to be a stove system also. That means everything built-in but with a cook pot that is put into and taken out of the stove system.

If I was making a mild season stove I could make a nice danty set of Titanium legs that weigh very little and a stove easy to use without gloves or mitts. That is not the current goal.

Bill, I have not forgotten the need to be able to use this stove in Winter----indeed, it's the only time I would ever use it unless I get into high altitude climbing again. But it sounds you feel there is still ample room to put the Xtreme on a diet.

I've not actually had the privledge to have used a stove I could really operate with my mitts. Generally speaking, I have found liners, thin or thick, adequate in the depths of Winter. It's a matter of controlled exposure.

I have heard of stoves modified for Antarctic or High Arctic use with oversized controls and fittings for use with uber mittens.

I guess I don't understand why very light Ti legs would not be adequate for the intended use----particularly if rod stock was used.

Edited by kdesign on 11/14/2005 11:16:35 MST.

Bill and Richard,
Thank you for your replies. I'm in Buffalo, NY. I'll check the local Gander Mountain for Coleman Xtreme stoves and canisters. Thanks for the info on the Coleman outlet website.
Paul

Kevin said: "I've not actually had the privledge to have used a stove I could really operate with my mitts. Generally speaking, I have found liners, thin or thick, adequate in the depths of Winter. It's a matter of controlled exposure."

You are correct, liners would have been a better word to use. I have several different kinds to include some Possum Down liners from BMW. I have been in the White Mt's when it was below "0" F. and my fingers would get cold fast outside my Mitts even with liners. My liners today are selected as carefully as I pick my mitts. Experience is a hard teacher at times.

I will know more about the Valve Assembly before the day is over. I am about to put it on the operating table.

Bill,

Keep us posted on the updates. Looks promising and hopefully the patient will survive the operation.

Rich

Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/14/2005 11:58:19 MST.

Last I checked Mcmaster was one of the more expensive options for Ti Rods.

A couple of sources:

Online Metals
Grade 2:$2-3/foot

Grade 5: $12/foot

OR

Solid Graphite Rods?

I have taken the Valve Assembly apart. Three screws and the "Heat Sink" part of the Valve comes apart/off the valve assembly. It looks just like Curt's pictures when the Heat Sink part is removed. I really thougt there would be more to it.

I thought Curt or Mike posted the weight of the Heat Sink but I can't find it. I get it as 47.6gr/1.67oz. The rest of the Valve and Hose Assembly weighs 84.3gr/2.97oz.

The first thing I am going to do to the heat sink is to remove all metal that isn't necessary to hold it together or hold the canister/Valve connection. In the cold temperatures I am making this for I think it would be nice to have something to hold onto when connecting the PowerMax canister to the valve Assembly. What you can't really see in the pictures is the black plastic parts(2) that the canister connects to. Without the heat sink those two part have nothing to hold them together. I should be able to drill or cut away half or more of the heat sink.

The second area where I might be able to reduce some weight is by making the braided stainless steel? line shorter. I will have to visit one of my local "Hot Rod" shops and see who can do something like that.

I am still not real sure I know what the Heat Sink part is doing. Trying to displace cold from the gas canister or hold heat. The fins would lead me to think they are made to displace something and not hold it.

In one of the pictures to follow you can see the new Burner Bowl I made. The cup shown (is/was) a Poached Egg Cup. I eat really well most of the time when hiking. I do have a very light weight kitchen kit when I want to go SUL.

Edited by bfornshell on 11/14/2005 20:23:26 MST.

Nice Photos, Bill!

The heat sink transfers heat to the fuel from the air. What I don't know for sure is whether this is just during startup or simmering, or maybe during warm weather operation where the fuel might vaporize just downstream of the valve.

Your bowl looks great, but I expect the stove would work just fine without any bowl at all.

What did you do to your poor pre-heat tube? That thing looks like a pretzel. :-O

Cheers,

-Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/15/2005 10:35:19 MST.

Thanks Mike,

I guess what I am after is just what does the heat sink do for the stove at "0" degrees? How cold do you think the gas coming out of the canister is? Is it colder than say the outside temperature at "0" degrees or less? I guess there is a point when "0" F might seem warm. Then I have to go back to my main concern and that is the ease of doing thing when it is really cold.

I think you are right about the Burner Bowl. Since I had an extra little cup I just went ahead and made it. My fear is that the heat might melt it.

The Pre-Heat Tube, you just had to ask that question didn't you? It got a little "bent out of shape" when I was trying to take things apart the first time. I had a little trouble finding a tool that I could get into the little hole on the lower part of the burner assembly. I should be able to striaghten it up when I am done messing.

Edited by bfornshell on 11/14/2005 22:41:23 MST.

Bill writes:

>> How cold do you think the gas coming out of the canister is? Is it colder than say the outside temperature at "0" degrees or less?

The long answer:

If it's warm enough in the braided tube that the gas vaporizes before getting to the pre-heat loop, then the gas in the tube will be *much* cooler than the canister temperature due to evaporative cooling of the fuel. The fins would then serve to warm the fuel from the surrounding air and keep it vaporized. Just guessing, but I can see this happening during warm weather operation, simmering, or startup.

But, at full throttle at zero degrees, I don't expect there will be much of a pressure drop across the valve (the big drop should occur at the jet). So, (and I'm really just guessing again) I expect that at 0 deg F, the fuel won't vaporize until it gets to the pre-heat tube, and until then will remain liquid at about whatever temperature it was inside the canister. [Of course, this assumes that the pre-heat tube has not been mangled beyond all recognition.] <g>

The short answer:

My best guess is that the fins don't do squat at zero degrees once the stove is warmed up and roaring. Priming/Simmering is another story.

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/15/2005 10:30:14 MST.

Hi Mike,

Before


After



How about a longer pre-heat tube that runs all the way around the burner bowl or burner head?

Looks like your surgery has begun, Bill. I'm excited to see where this all ends up!

I agree with Mike that the burner bowl isn't necessary at all. In fact, I believe it's actually labeled a "windscreen" in the Xtremem blown-up diagram I remember seeing at some point. I'd use a windscreen regardless, so it was redundant.

I also think the fins are probably useless once the stove is running. If I remember right, the directions say to turn the stove on very low for the first 30 seconds or so, then go ahead and crank it up. This should give the pre-heat tube plenty of time to warm up - even in really cold conditions - and at that point I can't imagine the fins do anything.

I'm not sure what the temps were on Adams when I had my Xtreme "epiphany", but I had a 10 degree bag and froze my ass off. Early in the morning is when the Xtreme was doubling (at least) the output of the Whisperlite. Probably somewhere between 5 and 20 degrees.

Any lightbulbs on the stand yet??

-Curt

Bill writes:

>> How about a longer pre-heat tube that runs all the way around the burner bowl or burner head?

I don't think a longer pre-heat tube is needed. A longer tube is used with a white gas stove because the fuel vaporizes at a higher temp. A smaller preheat tube can be used with propane/butane.

BTW, that's a stunningly beautiful preheater you've got there. ;-)

Cheers,

-Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/15/2005 10:28:01 MST.

It's like watching "ER". I can almost feel the cuts.
What we need is a webcam. ;-)>

I have heard similar re. vaporizing temperatures (MM's observation). I also think a longer preheating tube would only make the unit more fragile.

Edited by kdesign on 11/15/2005 10:26:35 MST.

What I would love to see is the interior of the control valve. Is this just a standard needle valve?

Bill: have you thought of making up a small plastic substitute for the magnesium 'head'? Lightweight, but much easier to handle. It won't be melting. It would also locate the canister neck.

What does the black control knob weigh? It should be possible to make a UL T-bar replacement?

Roger Asked:
Q1 - What I would love to see is the interior of the control valve. Is this just a standard needle valve?
A1 - Is this what you are asking about?


Q2 - Bill: have you thought of making up a small plastic substitute for the magnesium 'head'? Lightweight, but much easier to handle. It won't be melting. It would also locate the canister neck.
A2 -Yes, but. The "head" weighs 39.6gr/1.4oz. (knob removed). I will drill it out and remove as much metal as I can first. I hope to reduce enough weight that making a substitute would not be worth the time. I would like to retain the ability to hold the canister connector and valve assembly with a much reduced stock unit.

Q3 - What does the black control knob weigh? It should be possible to make a UL T-bar replacement?
A3 - The black knob weighs 8gr/0.28oz. I will first drill some holes in the knob and see how much weight I can reduce that way. I agree that a replacement could be made. If I can reduce the weigh by half I may keep the knob.

I found out today much trouble it can be to drop 3.6gr/0.13oz. I was able to remove the Hose from the Valve & Hose Assembly. The braided SS line has a black tube something in it that looks a little like filter material. I cut the braided line in half leaving it 3" long. Anyway, it was far more trouble than it was worth.




My local Hot Rod shop gave me a little help by cutting the line with a really neat piece of equipment. They custom make a lot of Stainless Steel lines and couldn't believe I would do all that work to save 3.6gr. I reminded them that some of what they did to their cars is also very time intensive. They have just returned from the Bonneville Salt Flats and a speed record attempt for there class. I just asked them if they used a check list and how many times did they go over it before each run.
They have a really nice milling machine and I might use it to remove material from the Valve Casing. I will have to make a chuck to hold the casing first. I may be able to do it with a flex shaft on a drill but I still need to mount it on something.

Edited by bfornshell on 11/16/2005 20:21:45 MST.

Hi Bill-

Nice photos as usual!

Can you tell if there is anything interesting in the fitting between the braided tube and the solid tube? I've always wondered if the wire inside the solid tube performs some kind of valving or throttling function with how it mates with the fitting. I'm thinking it *might* work as a 1 way valve to temporarily shut off the fuel supply if the pressure in the preheat tube got high for some reason.

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/16/2005 21:51:01 MST.

> Q1 - What I would love to see is the interior of the control valve. Is this just a standard needle valve?
> A1 - Is this what you are asking about?
Yep, thanks.
OK, standard needle valve. Hum - interesting. Thoughts which follow:

The needle valve is valving liquid. Consistent with performance. So liquid is going up the tube to the stove. It vaporises up there.

Other remote cartridge stoves are similar, but withOUT the big wire up a straight bit, and they work. I think the wire is simply an attempt at a heat exchanger, feeding back from the burner. Since other stoves don't have one, ...

Other stoves, like the Snow Peak GS200D, can be used with liquid feed. They do NOT have a massive lump of metal around the valve. So I think the beautiful finned diecast magnesium housing has the following functions: something to hold when you are mating the canister to the valve; something to protect the plastic clip which holds the canister; a stylish bit of marketing. Deduction from all this: you could safely leave the whole magnesium bit off. (I think ...)

Apropos of other remote-cartridge stoves: I think it should be possible to make a stand which will hold a conventional cartridge in an inverted position so the valve can be easily adjusted. This means any remote-canister stove could be used. I will experiment, and report.

How did you get the pictures into the email???? If I succeed with the above, I may be able to post a pic of it.

Mike asked:
Q1 - Can you tell if there is anything interesting in the fitting between the braided tube and the solid tube?
A1 - This looks like a standard "crimp" used to connect a tube and a braided hose. Remember the black (whatever) that is inside the hose. It looks sort of like a filter material, somewhat like the old style cigarette filter. A Coleman enginner said this material helps slow down or regulate the gas flow. I hope to get a call from him sometime next week. He was given BPL web URL to have a look at what we are doing. When you measure the brass rod that goes into the brass tube part of the hose and measure where the black stuff starts in the braided part of the line there doesn't seem to be any space for something else.

Q2 - I've always wondered if the wire inside the solid tube performs some kind of valving or throttling function with how it mates with the fitting. I'm thinking it *might* work as a 1 way valve to temporarily shut off the fuel supply if the pressure in the preheat tube got high for some reason.
A2 - Heres is what I know about that brass rod:
- It is 3-5/8"+ a very small amount long.
- It is the same size (1/16") as BPL Ti rod.
- It weighs 1.9gr
- It slides freely in and out of the brass tubing connected to the braided SS hose.
- It will slide into the brass fitting that the pre-heat loop tube is connected to about 3/8".
- Gas pressure from the canister will move the brass rod, case in point, when the gas pressure blew the brass rod out of the end of the brass tube part.
-- When the pre-heat tube is "hot" how much do you think the brass rod might expand? If the brass expanded it might act as some type of flow control.

Roger Said:
[1- R] Other stoves, like the Snow Peak GS200D, can be used with liquid feed. They do NOT have a massive lump of metal around the valve. So I think the beautiful finned diecast magnesium housing has the following functions:
1- something to hold when you are mating the canister to the valve;
2- something to protect the plastic clip which holds the canister;
3- a stylish bit of marketing.

[1-B] I agree.

[2-R] Deduction from all this: you could safely leave the whole magnesium bit off. (I think ...)

[2-B] In warm weather I think your idea would work. For use in very cold weather I don't think I would remove it.

Q-How did you get the pictures into the email?
A- You need to upload your pictures to a site such as Photobucket.com. They then provide the link to BPL.com or other places on the web. You do a copy/paste of their URL from Photobucket to BPL.com. Photobucket is a free hosting service for 500 plus pictures.

Edited by bfornshell on 11/17/2005 07:54:57 MST.

> 2-B] In warm weather I think your idea would work. For use in very cold weather I don't think I would remove it.

Needs testing. But I have used other remote canister stoves like the Snow peak GS 200D in the cold. Light carefully, at low setting, so the preheat tube warms up without a fireball.

Question: I have lost the URL you gave somewhere to your blog with the balloon airbed. Can you repeat? Please!

Roger writes:

>> The needle valve is valving liquid....So liquid is going up the tube to the stove. It vaporises up there.

Roger, at full flame, in cold weather, I definitely agree with you. But at a low-heat valve setting, say at startup, or during a low-heat simmer, there would be a larger pressure drop right at the valve. Especially in warm weather, I expect some (all?) of the fuel might vaporize just downstream of the valve due to this drop.

If this were true, the fins would serve to conduct heat from the outside air into the evaporating fuel, providing the necessary heat of vaporization.

From a design standpoint, I think this would be desirable during startup where the pre-heat tube is still cool. The fuel still needs to vaporize before it reaches the jet to mix with the air, and the fins would help this process -- reducing the chance of a fireball, as you say. Also, during low-heat simmering, it may be advantageous for the fuel to vaporize right at the valve to allow better flame control and reduce sputtering. (Both of these issues are probably irrelevant for full-throttle Winter snow melting.)

If a mixed-phase fuel were sometimes present in the fuel line upstream of the pre-heat tube, it might offer an explanation for the "wire" and "filter material" in the fuel line. Both of these mystery components might serve to smooth out the flow of a mixed-phase fuel to reduce burping and sputtering.

All of this is sheer speculation, of course. What we need is a transparent fuel tube so we could watch the fuel vaporize on it's way to the burner...

Cheers,

-Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/17/2005 16:22:04 MST.

Roger:
Here is the URL for the Poly-Tube DAM stuff. It is on 4 different pages. If you look at the top of the page you will see "SEARCH THIS BLOG". Click there and it will take you to a list of the other pages. It is long and drawn out. This was a collection of posts/questions/answers that ran about a year.

DAM Blog

> Especially in warm weather, I expect some (all?) of the fuel might vaporize just downstream of the valve due to this drop.
To be sure, it would.

> If this were true, the fins would serve to conduct heat from the outside air into the evaporating fuel, providing the necessary heat of vaporization.
Good theory, but I suspect the amount of energy input via the mag block would be small. The canister would do just fine imho. After all, upright stoves do work in 'warm' weather'.

> From a design standpoint, I think this would be desirable during startup where the pre-heat tube is still cool.
But the whole fuel line and burner have heat capacity, and would warm the fuel far better, and once the flame is there, who needs any other heat source?
This works with other stoves.

Yeah, a clear tube might be interesting - but then it would have a different thermal mass. Hum.
More playing needed.

>> Good theory, but I suspect the amount of energy input via the mag block would be small.

I agree. But it does perhaps double the surface area of the whole fuel tube apparatus. Maybe it reduces ice formation on the outside of the fuel line????

>> The canister would do just fine imho. After all, upright stoves do work in 'warm' weather'.

Ahh, but in an upright canister, the thermal mass of the liquid fuel remaining in the canister buffers the cooling effect. In a liquid-feed setup, the cooling would be dramatic in the fuel line until the temperature became too low for the fuel to completely vaporize upstream of the pre-heat tube. Also, in an upright setup, the canister itself can absorb heat from the environment, while the Xtreme canister is insulated by the black platic thingies from the fuel line (and preheat tube) where the evaporation takes place.

>> But the whole fuel line and burner have heat capacity, and would warm the fuel far better, and once the flame is there, who needs any other heat source?

We agree again. Hence, you can operate a conventional canister upside down. But, does it light easily and reliably? Can it simmer without sputtering out? The Coleman stove is designed for liquid feed and mass-market use. So perhaps it has these extra design details, that while not necessary for our Winter snow melting task, make it more user-friendly for the mass market.

BTW, Roger, as an engineer, I've really enjoyed your writings on bpl and your Aussi site. Thank you for your comments on this forum! Being able to have an exchange like this with someone of your credentials (or Ryan's for that matter) is one of the best things about BPL.

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/17/2005 21:39:57 MST.

Bill

I have taken over as Stoves Section Editor at BPL from Will R. My bio will appear one day on the masthead ...
In the meantime, I wonder if you would be willing to contact me direct? Probably a breach of whatever on this forum, but my address will be public soon anyhow. My email is (I think):
roger@backpackinglight.com

> > Good theory, but I suspect the amount of energy input via the mag block would be small.
> I agree. But it does perhaps double the surface area of the whole fuel tube apparatus. Maybe it reduces ice formation on the outside of the fuel line????
'reduces' is unlikely: the whole lot would be way sub-freezing anyhow in mid-winter.

> while the Xtreme canister is insulated from the fuel line (and preheat tube) where the evaporation takes place.
If evaporation IS taking place in the fuel line, the ambient must be pretty warm. Butane boils at -0.5 C (31 F), while propane boils at -40 C (-40 F). It is quite possible that the propane boils off somewhere in that black tube Bill showed us and bubbles up to the jet at the start. But if it does, this leaves butane behind, and that is likely to be liquid, and so will reach the jet in liquid state.

> Hence, you can operate a conventional canister upside down. But, does it light easily and reliably? Can it simmer without sputtering out?
Experiment trumps theory every day. I stuck a Snow Peak GS200D in the freezer for a while, then took it out and lit it immediately with the piezo. Absolute delight to operate, as easy as the Xtreme. (So far, so good.)

You will be getting me as the Stoves Section Editor for a while on BPL. Sorry about that. :-)

Mr. Caffin,

Congrats on the editor position. BPL sure knows how to pick 'em. Good move BPL.

>>"Experiment trumps theory every day."

three points:
1) obviously, the experiment must be properly set up.
2) decades ago, pioneer aviator, inventor, engineer, Igor I. Sikorsky was fond of saying to young engineers: "When the facts disagree with the theory, I urge you young gentlemen, to accept the facts."
3) the "Rhiele Axiom", states, "One Test is worth a thousand expert opinions." Test Engineers the world over swear by this principle.

Edited by pj on 11/18/2005 02:48:27 MST.

> Mr. Caffin,
> Congrats on the editor position. BPL
> sure knows how to pick 'em.
Let's hope so!
But look guys - 'Roger' will do just fine. I get enough of 'Dr Caffin' when I am playing professional scientist, but not here, please!
Cheers
PS: yes, I do have a few special Features in mind for stoves on BPL. They will take a little while to be completed, but stay tuned.

Hi Bill-

I saw your milling machine post on the Winter SUL thread and thought it would be more appropriate to discuss a few things here.

1) First, let me say that I have no experience machining anything. But, I've read that Magnesium is hazardous to work with -- apparently the dust can ignite. I don't know how real the danger is or what your background is. But, I felt compelled to bring it up. Please be careful.

2) On a brighter note... If your new machine works well, could I hire you to skeletonize my casing for me? If you're interested, please email me at mmmei@aol.com. [thanks!]

Best Regards,

-Mike

Mike, This stuff isn't real Mag. I have worked with the real stuff and have a set of Real Mag wheels on a small very fast car I own. Talk about something being light.

Thanks for the warning about the Mag dust.

Anyway, as a potter I learned long ago to always wear a dust mask for what ever material I work with. I also have filed, scraped and a couple of things I don't want to admit to with very little success on this Mag?? alloy.

Let me see how this "casting" works out and then we can talk about yours.

I just decided to test out stripping my MSR windpro canister stove.

but I am wondering, what do you use as a pot stand, and to keep the leggles stove upright?

I bet this has been mentioned, but I havent been reading this thread and I dont think there has been any pics of a stand.

Edited by ryanf on 11/30/2005 14:21:45 MST.

without a pot stand, the stripped windpro weighs 4.7oz.
I also got it to work with a pocket rocket head, but this wont work well in cold temps because there is no flame heating the feul line, but it will work in the summer.
the striped stove with the pocket rocket head weighs 3.7oz.

Here is a pic of the windpro canister stove.


The 4.7oz stripped stove next to pot stand.


the 3.7oz stripped stove






4.7oz flame looks exactly the same as the stove with pot stand in action

Edited by ryanf on 11/30/2005 16:09:16 MST.

Rejected Idea for light weight legs for the Xtreme. I made a set of legs out of .016" Titanium but when I put a pot with 1 liter of water on it the legs sort of fell over. I didn't add a crease in the Ti for extra strength and the water was to heavy. I have tried other ideas but I am not happy with any of them yet.



I have made stove stands out of cat food cans and other aluminum cans but don't like any of them so far.

I really think I want a separate stove stand and a separate cook pot stand.

Jason suggested a hanging system of some sort. This would work outside but I am not sure how it would work in a snow cave. The whole idea behind the "Diet" for the Xtreme was a stove that would be very good in the cold and be used to melt ice/snow for water on Ryan's winter hike.

The weigh of the modified Xtreme is 6.26oz but it still has no stand for the stove or cook pot. I have reduced the weight of the Mag casting from about 1.7oz down to about 1.07oz a savings of about 1/3 from the orginal weight. I was hoping for more but not yet.

Edited by bfornshell on 12/04/2005 16:57:44 MST.

I think I have reduced the Mag. casting for the Xtreme Stove as much as I can easy. I have each piece down to .507oz or 1.01 for the pair. I will see if I can file off the other 0.01oz to bring it to 1oz even. The stock casting was 1.68oz.

The pictures show the before and after. It still connects to the PowerMax Canister the same as in its stock form. I don't want to change that.






The milling tool I got works nice.

So it is finished. The Mag Casting has turned out to be .99oz for the two parts. The 3 steel screws that came with the unit weigh 2.4gr and I will look for something nylon or aluminum to replace the steel screws.

There was a question about doing a modification such as I have without a shop or special tools. I really think the answer is NO. The milling might be possible with a "flex shaft" drill system or maybe a Dremel type hand drill thing. I don't own a Dremel tool so I can't say for sure. I do know that my milling tool needs to be set on 20,000 rpm for the Tungsten Carbide Cutters I used.

The lighter burner head I am going to use needs a new aluminum tube to connect it to the fitting that has the pre-heat loop on it. The new tube (about 1-1/4" long) needs to be threaded in two different sizes, both uncommen metric sizes. The two tap's had to be special orderd and I hope to get them Friday. The burner head came off the Coleman F1 Ultralight Stove.

Then you will need to make a new lighter set of legs. I will start working on the legs for my stove on Tuesday.

Current weight without the legs is 6.18oz.

Bloody impressive. I want one.

Are you planning on using the stock control valve handle?

Edited by kdesign on 12/05/2005 23:30:04 MST.

Beautiful!!!

Bill, you inspire me! (Although after seeing your gear, I may never get up enough nerve to post pix of any of my cobbled-together, rough-cut homemade projects....) My stuff looks like a kindergartener made it next to yours.

Cheers,

-Mike

Thanks Kevin

Kevin Said: "Bloody impressive. I want one."
Answer: Send lots of money.

Q-Are you planning on using the stock control valve handle?
A- If I stay with the stock knob (I think that is what you are talking about) I will try drilling a few holes in it.


Thanks Mike.

Mike said: "Bill, you inspire me! (Although after seeing your gear, I may never get up enough nerve to post pix of any of my cobbled-together, rough-cut homemade projects....) My stuff looks like a kindergartener made it next to yours."

Never sell youself short. It is more important to get your ideas made, finesse' can come later. I call everything I make a prototype till I am happy with it. We should all understand a prototype is a work in progress. I also don't have a thin skin and like others imput. More sets of eyes looking at something has to be better than just one set of eyes looking. There have been times I didn't have the material I wanted and my prototype even made me laugh. But the idea I was working on "worked" and later I found a better material.

I know how you feel mike.
my stove stand for my wind pro is a little crude, if you saw it in person, and looks like garbage compared to bills Ti stand, but it works great and is light so I dont care.

Im getting a sewing machine soon so my first few projects will be...
but I think I will get the hang of it

Bill good job,
the milling machine basicaly files things down right?

Bill - Very impressive work! RE: The control knob. What about making a tensioned flip over wire control like on the Snow Peak and Vargo Ti stoves.


(picture from Roger Caffin's review of the Snow Peak Ti GST-100 Stove)

It would just require drilling two holes in the side of the control axle and then bending a piece of Ti rod

Edited by bobg on 12/07/2005 07:13:32 MST.

I concur with Bob about the control "knob" modification---very easy to use with the heaviest mitt.

Bob Gabbart wrote:
> The control knob. What about making a tensioned flip over wire control like on the Snow Peak ...
and included a picture of the Snow Peak GST-100.

It might be polite to mention that you got this picture from my OR on the stove at BGT, at
\\Warthog\BGT\MyOldORs\SnowPeakGST100\SnowPeakGST100.htm
but I am not really fussed.

Cheers
Roger Caffin

Sorry Roger. I've added a caption below the picture and added a link back to your review.

Bob

Bill,

Very nice work! At that size and weight, it's worth keeping as it makes attaching the fuel infinitely simpler. I may try to duplicate this with some much more rudimentary tools. We'll see....

By the way, you can drop another 0.2 ounces (7 grams) by losing the prop-up stand on there. It only serves to pool the fuel in the bottom of the bottle, but it works without it and there are about a million things that could replace its function (twig, small stone, dirt, etc.)

Can't wait to see your stand solution!

-Curt

Coleman Xtreme - Phase 1 Complete

I am posting this now so at least one Phase of the Coleman Xtreme's "Diet" can go into my "Year 2005 - Done Box".

I made 5 or 6 Stove/Pot Stands trying to keep the overall weight of both the Valve Assemby/PowerMax Canister Connector and the Stove Stand/Pot Stand at or under 7 ounces. I milled most of the extra metal off the Valve Assembly and cut down the stock gas on/off knob, The overall stock weight of the Xtreme is 11 ounces. For the different Stove Stands I made several trying to find the lightest but stable stand to support a larger size cook pot while melting ice/snow for water. The Xtreme w/PowerMax Canister is really great in low temperatures and maybe better than anything else on the market. At low temperatures things need to work easy and work well with light gloves on so that was my goal..

I worked on the Xtreme as a two part piece of equipment. The Stove/Pot Stand and the Valve Assembly/PowerMax Canister Connector.

For this version (I call ver. 3.0.1):
- the weight of the Stove/Pot Stand is 3.25 ounces.

- the Valve Assembly/PowerMax Canister Connector is 3.67 ounces.

This brings the complete Xtreme ready to burn at 6.92 ounces.

Things to note when looking at the pictures:
1. I used light nylon nuts to hold the Aluminum rod for the legs. These will be replaced by light metal nuts and even lighter "push nuts" where heat might melt the nylon. The weight of the stove reflects the weight of the final nuts used.
2. I used 1/8" aluminum rod instead of the 1/8" titanium rod I had because the aluminum rod was just a little lighter and a lot less expensive. The aluminum is also a lot easier to work with. The aluminum rod costs $0.17 a foot and the titanium with shipping and cut charge was about $0.89 a foot. I can buy the aluminum local.
3. For Roger A. - The Stove/Pot Stand required no special tools but I did thread some of the aluminum rod. The thread "die" costs about $5.00.
4. I did mill the Valve Assembly with skills I first learned in a "shop" class back in Jr High, about 50 years ago. The milling saved almost 1 ounce. Changing the stock stove legs saved 2 ounces.

Edited by bfornshell on 12/30/2005 10:40:30 MST.

Dang Bill,

I wish you had a windpro so we could see what you could do with that.

Good job on the new stand :-)

Thanks Ryan F.
I like the MSR WindPro but it has a big problem when trying to lighten it. It has a heavy burner head. If I adapted the Coleman Xtreme to burn off a regular canister the new gas line plus the modified Xtreme would be lighter than Mike's modified WindPro. Mike's WindPro is 5.1oz I believe. The stove part of my Xtreme only weighs 3.25oz. I could take the gas line off a WindPro and and use the Xtreme with a regular canister and be well under Mike's weight.

I think that before I buy a WindPro to modifiy I want to have a close look at the Brunton Optimus Crux a sit on canister type stove at 3.1oz. It might be eaiser to convert to a remote canister and it is really light to start. the Coleman F1 UltraLite out of the box is 2.7oz and I have one of them.

I may have to get a WindPro to use for parts and then see what I can do with it later. I can buy just the gas line but it costs $40. I think I would be better off buying a new stove. I could then adapt the WindPro to the PowerMax canister and use the WindPro gas line on the Xtreme and other stoves to convert them to a remote regular canister.

This is of course all for the sake of science.

Bill,

what I think could make for the lightest stove would be a windpro, with the smaller burner head modifacation, and the metal fuel line cut at both ends and then welded back together so there is less than an inch of metal tubing. Then the flexible fuel line shortend a few inches.

so it would end up with a smaller burner head, almost just attached to the flexable line with a half inch or so of tubing.

I dont think I explained this well, but you may be able to understand it.

Ryan, I understand.

I used the smaller burner head from the Coleman F1 on the modified Xtreme. I am not sure I would even call it an Xtreme anymore. Coleman still mostly yes. The burner head is from the F1 and the connecting tube is home made, the Mag casting while still the Xtreme unit is very much modified from the stock unit and the complete stove stand/legs are home made. I tried using the pot stand from the F1, they are nice but they are to heavy.

I do like the way the WindPro has the screw in the top of the burner head. That gives you a great way to attach the legs/pot stand.

I don't know what would happen if I drilled a hole in the top of an Xtreme or F1 burner head. I have also thought about trying to make my own burner head.

If we could pick and choose parts form stoves currently being sold I think we could come up with a really light stove. I called Coleman about buying a few parts and they really didn't want to sell them. I was told they didn't want folks modifing their products. This was said politely but a no is a no. They said if my stove was broke I could send it in for repair.

Hey Coleman supply us with some parts. We like the Xtreme and PowerMax Canister but just want it lighter. I would love to have you sponsor what I am doing for your stove. Sorry Ryan hope that doesn't get me in trouble.

I found this repair parts page on the coleman site, for the Xtreme.

Edited by ryanf on 12/30/2005 16:40:43 MST.

Great article Bill, thank you very much. If you were camping in warm weather, would you really need the casting at all? (that you did such a great job of machining down!)

MikeB

Thanks Mike, I am going to make an adapter that will allow me to use the Xtreme without the PowerMax and connect to a regular canister. The reverse of that has already happened. I have an adapter that will let me connect my old Rapid Fire remote canister stove to the PowerMax Canister.

I am not sure what you would save in the summer or warmer weather by going to a regular canister. The regular canister empty weigh is more than the PowerMax I think. I would defer to someone like Roger Caffin, Michael Martin or one our other smarter folks for that answer. If you want to use the PowerMax canister you have to use the casting.

Thanks. I had heard elsewhere that the purpose of the casting was to insure in cooler weather that the gas temp was not too low, hence the idea of not needing the casting for AZ in the summer.

Per your other note, where can we find out more info on using a PowerMax canister with an existing IsoPropane stove?

Thanks for the contribution,
MikeB

Mike B

MSR Stove-PowerMax Fuel

Edited by ryanf on 12/30/2005 21:11:21 MST.

By the way, if you're part of any nonprofit (they specify churches, scouts and schools, plus Red Cross and many others), you can get a smoking deal on an Xtreme stove directly from Coleman for $37.08 vs. the original price of $59.95
You can register at their non-profit site,(below) and they will send you the password for access to the nonprofit site.
They also allow "Civic Groups" (owners of Honda's?) and "Other" as qualifying groups.

http://www.coleman.com/coleman/promotion/youth_camping2.asp

Hope that helps!
MikeB

Edited by eaglemb on 12/30/2005 22:09:51 MST.

Thanks Mike, I have a Coleman Outlet Store near where I live and they sell the Xtreme for $40 or so. I have been lucky and have saved a little more during one of their many "sale" weekends.

Thanks Ryan F. for posting the link to the MSR to PowerMax information.

Bill-

Beautiful work! You're truely an inspiration to me.

It looks like those legs might fold up. If so, would you be kind enough to post a photo?

Best Regards,

-Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 12/30/2005 22:54:28 MST.

Mike Asked?
"looks like those legs might fold up. If so, would you be kind enough to post a photo?"

Yes, the legs fold, you might say they are spring loaded and need something to help keep them folded like a rubber band. Sorry I didn't weigh the rubber band.

The stove will fit with a little extra space in my SP Ti 700 mug.

From Coleman:
===============================
NEW ADAPTER EXPANDS FUEL OPTIONS FOR X-STOVE OWNERS Coleman® Exponent® X-series stoves are getting new fuel canister alternatives. The ingenious Powermax® Fuel Adapter allows any X-stove to run on conventional, more readily available butane-propane fuel canisters. That gives traveling adventurers the option of powering their stoves with either Coleman’s proprietary Powermax fuel or standard, threaded butanepropane blended canisters.




The innovative new adapter also effectively converts the LP canisters into a liquid-withdrawal fuel system to mimic the performance advantages that the Powermax system and X-stoves delivered – namely consistent performance throughout the life of the fuel cartridge including strong performance at higher altitudes and in below-freezing temperatures. The Xstoves broke important performance barriers often associated with butanepowered stoves and conventional vapor-withdrawal systems.

The lightweight aluminum adapter attaches to an X-stove fuel connector and two swing-out legs provide a stable platform for the fuel canister. In a 180-degree departure from standard usage, the threaded butane canister is inverted and attached to the adapter upside-down to allow a liquidwithdrawal method of fuel-feed to the burner. (Historically, LPG canisters of butane or butanepropane blended fuel used in conventional upright position rely on vapor withdrawal. There is pressure inside the canister. When the stove valve is opened, it allows the vapor to pass to the burner for combustion. Colder temperatures decrease pressure and degrade performance. A liquid withdrawal system draws the blended fuel in liquid from the pressurized canister, carries it via a copper fuel tube to a regulator that passed above the burner, which heats it and converts it to a vapor before feeding the vaporized fuel to the burner. The system results in reliable performance when temperatures drop below freezing, and it is less affected by altitude than vapor-withdrawal systems.) The Powermax Fuel Adapter will be available for the ’06 season with an MSRP of $23.
===============================
The following is my comment on this product:
This adapter should open up a lot of possibilities for the MYOG folks. A comment has been made that it looks a bit over engineered. They should have asked us to help. The price is right and I hope to get one as soon as they are available.

Hark, is that the sound of a milling machine warming up? :-)

They at least deleted an unneeded leg and made it a bipod rig. I have to say, it's nice knowing you could now take a 450 g canister and an X-stove winter camping--at first glance an attractive proposition. We'll have to await the adaper's weight before crunching the total weights (e.g., 450 g cartridge + adapter versus two large Max cartridges).

However it plays out, my guess is the Max cartridge days are numbered.

Rick: Yes, but think about the difference in weight between the Steel standard canister and the weight of the Aluminum canister used on the PowerMax.

A bought a dozen of the large PowerMax canisters for $2.99 each. That gives me a good supply if Coleman decides to discontinue the PowerMax. I would save them for very cold weather hiking.

On a different note, there is a much eaiser way to adapt a standard canister to the Xtreme stove. I have done this without using the PowerMax "Mag" casting. I just went with a different canister control valve and gas line. Unscrew the PowerMax gas line at the Xtreme stove and screw in the replacement that is made to connect to the standard canister. The weight was even a little lighter.

The plot gets thicker. I made two stoves like Son of Balrog, one for the PowerMax and one for a standard canister. I will just take which ever I think I need for the Temp I think I will be in if I want a canister stove.

I am happy to see Coleman doing something new and I does give us more "parts" to play with. The best part is the price of the Coleman stoves. Most are less than the competition.

Coleman also has some really great pictures of this stuff.

This is neat - at least someone's thinking about different ideas - but I'd rather see the opposite: a way for screw-on canister stoves to run on PowerMax fuel. It's the lighter cartridge that I'm after - not more options on the same canister. I think you're right-on that this probably means the end of the PowerMax cartridges. I know a semi "secret" place that not only has them, but has them cheap. Might have to go clean them out.....

-Curt

I guess this is nice, but honestly I feel disappointed that Coleman seems to be backing away from their powermax concept. Not only is the liquid withdrawal method a more sound system, but the gas mixture is better for cold weather than the "other" cartridges. An MSR cartridge hooked to an Xtreme stove will make for easier access to fuel, but will NOT be as good as a powermax cartridge. Bill

I tried and failed to Google up even one retail source of Max cartridges. I'm sure they're out there, but it should be much, much easier. For that matter, I can't even find them on the Coleman.com website.

My local REI stocks them but rei.com does not. Their market penetration seemed to peak five or so years ago when Coleman was selling a line of Max-powered car camping equipment. I could even find them at WalMart.

They're the Betamax of camping fuel.

If I don't include the adapter weight, steel doesn't suffer too badly in the comparison--about 6.5 oz for the 450g canister versus about 3.2 oz for a 300g Max cartridge, which extrapolates to 4.8 oz for a 450g equivalent. The adapter weight definitely hurts the steel option.

Aluminum's easy field crushability is another big plus in its favor.

I would not use the adapter with one of my stoves if I needed a stove for cold weather. I would just go with a non-Coleman lighter option.

Edited by bfornshell on 01/30/2006 21:34:25 MST.

Our local Walmart had all the Powermax cylinders on clearance last week. The guy in the department said that he understood it was being discontinued by Coleman.

Craig Shelley

Curt writes:

>> I'd rather see the opposite: a way for screw-on canister stoves to run on PowerMax fuel.

I think we're unlikely to ever see this kind of adapter from Coleman because of the liability issues. Some Yo-Yo is sure to to hook up a stove with no pre-heat tube to the liquid-feed Powermax cartridge and turn his Pocket Rocket into a Pocket Rocket. ;-)

-Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 01/30/2006 21:26:44 MST.

Mike, I don't know of any of the ultra-light "sit on the canister stoves" that has a pre-heat tube. No pre-heat tube/loop or what ever and you would not get the benefit of the PowerMax fuel. I think.

Bill writes:

>> I don't know of any of the ultra-light "sit on the canister stoves" that has a pre-heat tube. No pre-heat tube/loop or what ever and you would not get the benefit of the PowerMax fuel. I think.

Sure. The benefit of such a connector would be for remote-style canister stoves with a pre-heat tube -- like MSR's Windpro, for example. My point is that if Coleman were to produce a Lindal-Powermax adapter, somebody would mistakenly use it on a stove without a pre-heat tube, like the sit-on-tops you mentioned.

Cheers,

-Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 01/30/2006 22:27:20 MST.

Craig,

A bit earlier today I called Coleman (1-800-835-3278) and spoke to a Cust Srv Rep. He told me, while the PowerMax cylinders are difficult to find, they 1) can be found in many local sporting good stores (I found them several miles away at a "The Sports Authority" store, but the local Wal-Mart has never carried them), and 2) Coleman has no intention, that this Rep was aware of, of discontinuing manufacture and sale of them.

If the PowerMax cylinders cannot be found locally, they can be purchased directly from Coleman - but only by the case (12 cylinders per case) for $2.99 per cylinder. A case is, therefore, ~$36 plus a $25 per case hazardous materials transport charge. In my case, this is only a bit more than I can find them locally - viz. $3.99 per cylinder, so, ~$48 per 12 plus ~$6 sales tax for a ~$7.xx difference in price buying locally versus buying direct from Coleman.

Hope this info helps.

Edited by pj on 02/02/2006 12:02:37 MST.

Paul,

I'm glad Coleman isn't discontinuing them and it is just my local Walmart that is discontinuing them. They cost $2.50 a cylinder and I've stocked up on them. I might go back in a couple of weeks and see if they dropped the clearance price further.

Craig Shelley

How hard would it be for someone with no real experience working on stoves besides a couple of simple alcohol stoves to build a Balrog stove?

Jason,
The short answer is Yes, but you need a few parts from one or more other stoves.
1. - Do you have any canisters type stoves?
2. - If yes, what kind do you now have?

The materials necssary are not hard to find and didn't cost much. The Aluminum rod came from a Hobby Shop where they sell Radio Control cars and planes. You will need a few small tools but first things first. Answer the two questions for me and we can go from there.

I currently have a brunton crux. But if I needed to purchase a Xtreme plus some other parts even an additional windpro, it would not be out of the question.

Oh and Thank you very much :-)

I just picked up a coleman extreme stove. What else do I require, or what do I need to do next.

From Jason:
"I just picked up a coleman extreme stove. What else do I require, or what do I need to do next?"
-------------------------------------------
Jason, How far do you want to go as you reduce the weight of your Xtreme?

I would start out like pictured here. This will give you a good weight reduction without milling the control assembly.
Stock Stove:


Stage One Modificatiom but with the Stock Burner Head. Burner Head shown is from a Coleman F1 Ultra-Light.

Edited by bfornshell on 02/23/2006 23:22:42 MST.

Sounds like a good place to start. Thanks

JETBOILで４００ｃｃの水を沸かしたら、この自作ストーブ（Φ１０）では

約１分１４秒でした。ストーブ本体は２０ｇです。真鍮パイプ製です

BPLから購入した、チタン製のスタンドを利用しています

さらに低いスタンドでも

自作したΦ１０ブタンガスストーブは、充分に機能しています

Edited by jsbjsb on 12/22/2006 07:45:57 MST.

This thread covered the Xtreme Stove about everyway possible.

I will look through the thread and see if the adapter is shown here someplace and if not I will add a few pictures of it.

The Xtreme does not really fold small and the gas line is not made to take on and off. The Adaper is just over 3 inches along its longest line.

Bill,

In this post:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=1608&startat=45

How hard was it to remove the hose from the valve assembly? I've got a badly kinked hose on a good stove that I want to replace with a good hose from a "parts only" stove that I'm cannibalizing. See also http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=27412

What type of tools are needed to replace a hose? Anything special? I just have common household hand tools.

HJ

Just Wow,

Incredible work. I like the latest designs with the folding legs. A tiny, light, well packing cyclinder.

I couldn't help but wonder if there's a similar thread on the modding the MSR Dragonfly. I love the stove but don't use it much because of the weight and bulk. I've gone so far as to mod the legs to make them removeable, but that's as far as I've gotten with it.

So far have not found a similar thread for it.

Jim- do you have a stove leg you could sell me? I stepped on my extreme stove and broke it. I need the leg that attaches in the lowest position. Thanks, Slugbait

I'm not sure. I may not cannibalize my "parts" stove after all. Apparently, moving the fuel hose from one stove to another is not an easy thing.

Let me take a look when I get home tonight and see what I've got in my Coleman "X" box.

HJ

steped on my stove and broke bottom leg coleman discontinued make spare legs according to their web site. anyone have an idea where i can get a spare (bottom one) leg or even a new stove. checked e-bay to no avail.

any chance you have an extra bottom leg from the origional stove? I broke mine and cannot find a replacement coleman discontinued them

Weird. The bottom leg on one of my Xtremes is broken too. I wonder if the bottom leg is particularly vulnerable. I checked to see if the legs are interchangeable, but each leg is unique. I wired mine back together. It works, but I wouldn't ever take it on a hard core trip.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving