I really like the idea of quilts, seems logical to me. What I don't understand, is the cost. It seems to me that they are simpler to make, easier to make, and use less material. But when you price them, it seems like they sell at a premium. And the weight savings over a convential mummy bag don't seem that great. Looks to me like you could cut the zipper and some excess material out of a Kelty Lightyear and have the same quilt for a third of the cost. Normally my wife is quick to point out when I'm confused, and have a mistake in logic (or mind reading), but this time I'm looking forward to the collective intelligence of this forum. Thanks.

There are two reasons quilts might seem expensive. The first is that all of the commercially produced quilts I know of are made with top rated materials, where sleeping bags come in a wide range of quality levels. Yes, something like the jackrbetter quilt is more expensive than a Kelty Lightyear, but the JRB quilt is made from the same sort of materials that are found in high end bags made by companies like WM. If fact, the original JRB quilt is about the same price as the WM MityLite, has the same amount of down, and the JRB might be a more complicated sewing job (baffles -vs- the MityLite sewn through).

The second reason quilts might appear more expensive is that they are being made by cottage industry companies, which don't have the scale of very large corporations to drive materials and production cost down.

--Mark

It is an interesting question, Joe. I think I always just assumed that companies that manufactured quilts were (as Mark points out) adding value by incorporating superior materials and construction.

Still . . . my first sleeping quilt (many, many years ago) WAS frankensteined from the cheapo sleeping bag that I already had—it was an ugly mod, but I had planned a backpacking trip with a girl who didn’t have a sleeping bag, and by cutting up mine I was able to make a quilt that would work for two ;-). It was kind of fun—modifying the sleeping bag, I mean—and I used it for many seasons thereafter. In fact, I never went back to using a sleeping bag. So maybe if you have an old bag you might want to try it.

In any case, I wouldn’t recommend committing to a sleeping quilt until you have tried one a few times and under assorted conditions (assuming you haven’t already). Some people really dislike them and others feel very much otherwise (kind of like tents versus tarps). Personally, I haven’t used a sleeping bag in years, but the quilts that I own now are all DIY or kit projects; easy to make and economical (read: well under $100 even for a light-weight quilt comfortable for two down to around -6C).

LIBERTAS+PAX PACIS

Edited by lrmblue on 09/26/2008 12:33:00 MDT.

The objective answer to your question is that it's because most high-end quilts are made by small businesses with few American employees and most high-end sleeping bags are made by large companies which often outsource overseas. It's true that you can make your own quilt, be it from down or synthetic, but if you want to buy pre-made, at the end of the day, it's just a matter of who can do it cheaper.

The answer from my own experience is this: I own a Western Mountaineering Summerlite (rated for 32 degrees) that cost $280 originally and weighs 20 ounces (as weighed, not as spec'd). I also own a Golite Ultra 20 quilt that I bought second hand through the BPL Gear Swap for $125. The Golite quilt weighs 19 ounces and is noticeably warmer than the Summerlite. Since I bring a hooded jacket anyway, the hoodless design doesn't affect me, and overall I saved money and weight (well, I didn't really save money...).

Edited by artsandt on 09/26/2008 12:18:26 MDT.

If you think about the overall construction, a quilt isn't really much easier to construct than a sleeping bag. Whereas the sleeping bag hood requires more construction, a quilt foot box often requires more construction than a sleeping bag footbox so that's probably a tradeoff. A lot of design thought goes into just where to taper the quilt for maximum efficiency, how to fasten the neck area, etc. The Jacks R Better quilts also are made to convert to be wearable, which adds complexity to the design, and the Nunatak quilts have the adjustment straps to keep the quilt tighter when weather is cold.

I made one quilt (a simple Ray-Way design one), and if I count my hours, it is way cheaper for me to work and pay someone else to make my quilt, especially the down ones like my Nunatak.

Basically, when buying the cottage manufacturer quilts (which are the lightest available for the most part), we are paying for craftmanship by an individual rather than a factory produced commodity.
Pam

Edited by RiverRunner on 09/26/2008 21:22:13 MDT.

> Basically, when buying the cottage manufacturer quilts (which are the lightest available for the most part), we are paying for craftmanship by an individual rather than a factory produced commodity.

While I am admittedly a dedicated DIY fan, I would add here that the cottage manufacturers have a significant body of experience compared to a DIY person. No way is my Mk 1 anything as good as my Mk 10.

Cheers

That's a really good point Roger. Seldom is anyone making their own gear satisfied with the first attempt. They usually go on to several revisions.

So, I guess in the long run it could actually be more expensive in materials to make your own before the desired level of satisfaction is reached.

Tim Marshall of this parish made me a beautiful 17oz quilt with top grade down and a fully baffled construction for a very reasonable price. Ask him nicely and he may do the same for you.

>Seldom is anyone making their own gear satisfied with the first attempt. They usually go on to several revisions.

I don't mean to be contrary, but where are you getting your facts? This is the opposite of what I think happens, with quilts at least. With backpacks and tarps, yes I do believe you're right. But a mis-sewn quilt, unlike a backpack with uneven straps for instance, is not less functional. A little insulation sticking out of the seams? the quilt still works just as well as otherwise. A too-wide taper? just put it back under the sewing machine and take in the edges. Plus, I think most people like the cost savings of quilts so much they wouldn't justify making another. Synthetic quilts can be so inexpensive that to make another would ruin the insanely cheap aspect of it and down quilts are nearly so expensive that to make another would negate the cost savings of doing it DIY compared to buying a down quilt.

Edited by artsandt on 09/27/2008 12:23:32 MDT.

Just as a consideration, if you wanted to make a 20 degree quilt w/850 FP down, current cost just for the down (at ~15 ounces, rounded up) is $125. Material such as Momentum, at ~14/yard, using about 5 yards, would cost $70. Add in zipper, notions, thread, etc. Raw material cost alone for DIY is going to come in around $200-$250. Then you have to make it. Say your time is worth $10/hr. Most DIYers, I'd guess, would spend at least 20 hours--so add $200. Your effective cost is $400+. I think cottage industry costs are a pretty good deal overall. (I do MYOG gear, love it, just trying to give an objective viewpoint of cost.)

Good points Brad, maybe this is where the difference lies between cottage industry and individual one-off MYOG. Tim has enough material in stock for quite a few quilts because a job lot deal came along. He patiently looks out for good deals on down from overorders and unstarted projects etc. He passes on the savings in fair measure.

>I don't mean to be contrary, but where are you getting your facts? This is the opposite of what I think happens, with quilts at least. With backpacks and tarps, yes I do believe you're right. But a mis-sewn quilt, unlike a backpack with uneven straps for instance, is not less functional.<

No hard data, just personal observation of folks talking about what they've made on various forums. And you are correct, generally it is more packs, tarps, and clothing that are made numerous times.

But I do sometimes notice it even with quilts - the maker does a synthetic first, moves on to down, moves to higher quality down, different shell material etc.

But then, many of us do the same with gear we buy. The obsession for ever lighter and more functional runs deep...

Edited by RiverRunner on 09/27/2008 14:23:35 MDT.

>Just as a consideration, if you wanted to make a 20 degree quilt w/850 FP down, current cost just for the down (at ~15 ounces, rounded up) is $125. Material such as Momentum, at ~14/yard, using about 5 yards, would cost $70. Add in zipper, notions, thread, etc. Raw material cost alone for DIY is going to come in around $200-$250. Then you have to make it. Say your time is worth $10/hr. Most DIYers, I'd guess, would spend at least 20 hours--so add $200. Your effective cost is $400+. I think cottage industry costs are a pretty good deal overall. <

My conclusions too. ;^)

That's why Jack's R Better made my underquilt and Nunatak made my summer weight quilt after I had made my first (and last) synthetic one. My time is better spent elsewhere, but I do see that for some the reverse could be the case.

A lot can be said for satisfaction either way. It's cool to be able to say you made something yourself, but the satisfaction of having something made by someone who really knows what they are doing and have practiced it to a fine art is good too. My homemade quilt definitely has a lot of uneven seams and a few puckers. The Jacks and Nunatak are perfect for all practical purposes.

Pamela wrote: “I made one quilt (a simple Ray-Way design one), and if I count my hours, it is way cheaper for me to work and pay someone else to make my quilt, especially the down ones like my Nunatak.”
AND
“Seldom is anyone making their own gear satisfied with the first attempt. They usually go on to several revisions.” [ . . . ] So, I guess in the long run it could actually be more expensive in materials to make your own before the desired level of satisfaction is reached”

All good observations, but I think that some kinds of experience simply have intrinsic value for some people; a friend of mine does his own auto repairs although it would be cheaper for him to work and pay someone else to do it—he just wants to know more about how the machine functions.

Also, there may be other forms of recompense as well, for example, dissatisfaction with self-made gear may be very instructive—it can help define what you really want/need in a particular item—information that can then be used to either “try again” or make a more completely informed decision about what you should look for in a subsequent ready-made purchase—which, in this case, may ultimately lead to a tangible savings in $.

Further, I think experience in making something (like a sleeping-quilt) can foster an increased appreciation of the quality and effort invested by some manufacturers—which may, in turn, lead to increased consciousness and respect for ingenious and high-quality craftsmanship (at least these are things I’ve learned from my own misbegotten creations and butcheries).

Please, don’t get me wrong, I think all of the responses so far help answer Joe’s initial question—about the premium price charged for many commercial quilts—but, if a person isn’t sure whether a sleeping-quilt is a good backpacking choice then I think there is little to be lost and much to be learned in trying to put one together oneself. In its most basic form it is a simple and inexpensive project, and as Art points out, “a mis-sewn quilt, unlike a backpack, is not less functional.”

LIBERTAS+PAX PACIS

> “The obsession for ever lighter and more functional runs deep...” LOL, true, all too true, Pamela.

Hi Art

> I don't mean to be contrary, but where are you getting your facts?
From my own efforts.
Tents: about 10 off
Packs: about 8 off
SB/Quilts: about 5 off

> But a mis-sewn quilt, unlike a backpack with uneven straps for instance, is not less functional.
Ahhh.... Possibilities include:
Made baffles to thick/thin for the amount of down.
Made taper at feet too narrow.
Made quilt too short for body.
Made shoulders too narrow.
Made baffles badly so they pulled out of the stitching.

I am not saying I did any of these (I haven't), but I have seen all these mentioned over the years on the BPL channels. Yeah, sure, with synthetic fill the hassles are less.

But no worries. Some of us do it 'because it is there'.

Cheers

I've made one summer quilt (synthetic), which I've tweaked a few times because with a synthetic quilt tweaks are pretty easy.

So does anyone have any experience with the Golite Ultra 20? It's more in my price range.........

Joe: I just came off a 5-day PCT section hike in Nor Cal using a Go Lite Ultra 20. I just bought it a month ago. It was my second time using it, and first multi-night trip with it. This is my first quilt. Bottom line: I really like it. I encountered a variety of conditions. The first night started cloudy and I pitched my poncho tarp over it and was inside my bivy. No condensation or issues. Second night was clear and below freezing and I got frost on the bivy and the quilt got soaked, but with my longjohn bottoms and insulating top on, I stayed warm enough. The loft held up pretty well despite the condensation. The construction seems pretty good, though I popped a thread on one of the straps on my last day stuffing it in its sack. My fault though, tired and not being careful. Because this is my first quilt though, I defer to others with more experience using different quilts.

I've also have a little experience with a Golite Ultra 20. I used it on a 3 night hike in the mountains of northern New Mexico about a week ago. Like Jeremy, on one of the nights, I got a little wet (bad site choice). I was sure to let the quilt dry out in the sun the next morning, but it turned out that only the shell material had gotten wet. The down held out very well for the rest of the trip. I really like the Pertex Endurance strip near the mouth. That area of the quilt routinely got wet from my breathing, but because of the waterproof/breathable strip there, the down itself didn't get wet and collapse. I don't know if it's a true 20 degree quilt, because the low didn't really get below 30 degrees. I was toasty at that temperature, although I do wear a high loft hooded synthetic vest and fleece long johns to sleep. It felt warmer than my WM Summerlite, though, as I pointed out in my first post to this thread.

Edited by artsandt on 09/27/2008 20:57:32 MDT.