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Richard Matthews
(food) - F

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Primus Gravity valve type? on 11/07/2005 10:57:32 MST Print View

For cold weather use only ISO-Butane/propane mix. The more propane the better. Avoid plain butane.

The best info I know about is at:

http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Mixtures.htm

Tony Burnett
(tlbj6142) - F

Locale: OH--IO
cansiter stove for melting snow on 11/07/2005 11:19:51 MST Print View

I like the idea of using a MSR WindPro, Primus Gravity or Snow Peak GigaPower BF for melting snow. I know I've read that "put the canister upside down" trick somewhere else (years ago), but I'm not sure where.

However, how do you keep the canister warm while melting? Since the canister will not be "self-warmed" by the stove itself, I assume fuel output will drop as it releases gas.

Maybe place the canister near, but not too near, the stove? Leave a gap in the windshield and place the canister near the gap?

Richard Matthews
(food) - F

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: cansiter stove for melting snow on 11/07/2005 11:47:34 MST Print View

Tony,

You need a platform to keep the stove from sinking into the snow. I use a small piece of closed cell pad with a tinfoil pie plate on top. Put some of your heated water into the pie plate for a very effective heat sink.

Tony Burnett
(tlbj6142) - F

Locale: OH--IO
Re: Re: cansiter stove for melting snow on 11/07/2005 12:00:00 MST Print View

>> heat sink?

You lost me. I understand the need to put something under the stove, but I'm not sure what the heat sink is for???

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
stove for melting snow on 11/07/2005 12:14:18 MST Print View

To warm the canister and to prevent stove heat from melting it's platform.

Edited by kdesign on 11/07/2005 12:15:31 MST.

Tony Burnett
(tlbj6142) - F

Locale: OH--IO
Re: stove for melting snow on 11/07/2005 13:07:06 MST Print View

Wouldn't I need a rather large pie plate (12-14") to put both the canister and stove base inside its diameter? Do you still put a windscreen around the stove pot combo? If so, how do you keep it from "tipping" into the water as part of the windscreen would be over the water and a portion would be over the ground?

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Re: Re: stove for melting snow on 11/07/2005 13:16:43 MST Print View

Tony, I use a similar windscreen set up to the one in the following article. Also, the whole article will answer some of your canisters in cold weather questions.-----
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00041.html

Tony Burnett
(tlbj6142) - F

Locale: OH--IO
stove for melting snow on 11/07/2005 13:31:17 MST Print View

We've seem to be switching between stove types within our responses. The above link seems to be referring to a "stove on top" style of canister stove. Whereas, I was talking about a "detached stove". The former doesn't seem all that ideal for melting snow as they tend to be a bit unstable, only made worst because you have to constantly touch the pot when adding snow and removing water. The later seems to be a better snow melting setup from a stability point of view; however, it doesn't benefit from the being placed closed to heat source.

Dang it, now I'm all confused. What sort of snow melting cansiter stove setup is ideal when temps are below 20F? 15F? 10F? Or should canisters not even be considered at those temps regarless of which wacky setup (cooper wire thing, pot-o-warm water, etc.) you choose? RJ's article only mentions temps down to 23F. Which, I think, is a rather "warm" winter trip, espeically for morning temps.

Maybe canister stoves are out of the question of sub-20F temps? If so, please let me know and I'll stop considering one for snow melting.

Edited by tlbj6142 on 11/07/2005 14:01:29 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Winter Canister Stove practice on 11/07/2005 14:02:42 MST Print View

I apologize,Tony, for bringing in the non-detached form of canister stoves into the discussion ( which incidentally can work quite well for winter camping, with proper care--it's what I typically use).

A foam pad insulation pad should be used under both the detached canister and the stove to prevent the base from melting and to help keep the canister
warm enough to work.

If the temp. gets down to a certain point ( Ryan's 23 degrees F is a good marker), it is increasingly difficult to use a canister stove in the open and would suggest moving operations inside a tent or well ventilated snowcave to have a warmer operating environment, where hand or body warming of the canister is effective.

Edited by kdesign on 11/07/2005 14:05:27 MST.

Richard Matthews
(food) - F

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: stove for melting snow on 11/07/2005 14:31:21 MST Print View

Tony,

I have used both stove on top canister and white gas stoves in snow. I have used a detached canister stove, but never in the snow.

I use my sit pad and a tin foil pie plate for the stove platform. For the detached maybe you will need 2 pie tins. Get the bigger pie tins that the bottom is about 1" bigger than the diameter of your pot. The windscreen nests inside.

The canister needs to be kept in your sleeping bag or an iside coat pocket before the initial burn. You need some starter liquid and as soon as you have about a cup boiled pour about half into the pie tin with the canister. Refresh the hot water as needed.

One of the benefits of camping in the snow is digging a snow kitchen. You can construct a good wind screen with snow.

I have heard that people that like to live dangerously will cook in the vestibule with canister stoves. Breakfast in bed makes the accomodations for a canister stove worthwhile.

Some people will gather clean snow in a plastic bag in an open area because it contains less duff. The snow is transferred into the pot with a cup.

Tony Burnett
(tlbj6142) - F

Locale: OH--IO
upside down canister? on 11/07/2005 14:45:47 MST Print View

Thanks for the more detailed description.

To All;
I wonder at what point (temperature) the upside down cansier trick starts, and stops, being useful? Vick?

Currently I own MSR PR, I have a hard enough time keeping my pot from sliding off during the 3-season hiking (I only use it when I hike with my kids) when its sits on a picnic table, I can't imagine how unstable it would be during the winter. So, I figure I'll need to buy a new stove for snow melting and cold weather trips.

Maybe a "more stable" top-mount is the answer (Colemen F1??)? Detacthed cansiter (MSR WindPro??)? Or go with white gas (Simmer/Whisper)? I don't know. I was kind of hoping you folks would make it easier to make a decission, but that doesn't seem to be happening.<g>

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: upside down canister? on 11/07/2005 14:49:54 MST Print View

I have a pocket rocket a gigapower a wind pro and a jet boil.

the giga power is much more stable than the pocket rocket because it has 4 stands instead of three and is made of titanium but the windpro takes the cake for stability because it is on the ground.

is a jetboil useful for melting snow?

Edited by ryanf on 11/07/2005 14:51:44 MST.

Tony Burnett
(tlbj6142) - F

Locale: OH--IO
Jetboid melting snow on 11/07/2005 14:52:44 MST Print View

I thought someone on the bpl yahoo group used a jetboil for their winter trips. I believe he had some sort of hanging rig which allowed him to use it in the tent without fear of tipping over.

Don't recall if it was used for snow melting or not.

I found the message, it was Dr. J. Posted on Nov 4th, 2004.

Edited by tlbj6142 on 11/07/2005 15:01:58 MST.

Richard Matthews
(food) - F

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: upside down canister? on 11/07/2005 15:00:31 MST Print View

You can't have too many stoves <g>.

Maybe buy at a place with a liberal return policy (REI). Try it in the snow and take it back if it does not work the way you want. It may take a lot of test trips.

There must be a downside, but I don't see it.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
REI rentals on 11/07/2005 15:30:00 MST Print View

most REIs rent out gear but not all so look at REI.com

Rentals

Edited by ryanf on 11/07/2005 15:31:59 MST.

Norma Miller
(normalight) - F
Simmerlite pumping & flame control on 11/09/2005 20:53:20 MST Print View

We found after some experimentation that the # of pumps given to the cylinder prior to lighting is proportional to the flare up AND more importantly to how well it behaves for a simmer. Here's what we noted: More than 5 pumps and you get too much pressure and subsequently will be almost impossible to simmer. Sometimes I give it 2 or 3 pumps and it simmers perfectly. Or, just 1 or none after a short time off. Of course other factors may change things including how long between light-ups. The initial light up after a day or two may mean more than 5. I don't know if weather, i.e. very cold or very hot temps, plays any part in changing how much effort it takes to "properly" pressurize the fuel for controlled burn & simmer. Hint: The instructions do state not to over-pump the canister though they don't tell you how many times for how ever long it's not been fired. The T&E (trial/error) method seems to be the only way to work MSR stoves.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Availability of powermax cartridges on 11/23/2005 02:44:09 MST Print View

For Neil

Coleman are still selling the Powermax cartridges in Europe and the UK. I asked. (I also lost your email address!)

Cheers
Roger Caffin

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Flaring on 11/23/2005 02:50:11 MST Print View

Flaring with a petrol stove (Whisperlite, XGK, etc) is probably caused by water dripping on the preheat tube. The water may be from boiling over or from condensation on the outisde of the pot. Dangerous stuff in a tent.

Neil Johnstone
(nsjohnstone) - MLife
Availability of Powermax cartridges - UK on 11/23/2005 03:44:35 MST Print View

Coleman may say they are still suppying them, but they are long gone from the shops! The UK 'Outdoorsmagic' site has a thread linking to a supplier who states that he is 'one of the very few suppliers' and he only sells by the case (12 x 300g).
Therefore not a good choice of cartridge if you want to be able to resupply en route - for UK/Europe, the Epigas standard has to be the way to go (apart from France, obviously!).

Chris Harbert
(Shavuotis) - F
Stove to melt snow on 09/23/2009 19:59:43 MDT Print View

When It's cold, I use an Optimus Nova. It is compact, hot, and it's built like a tank. I've used it for 4yrs. with no problems whatsoever. My MSR Windpro does a good job too. Just keep the cannister in your sleeping bag or coat before you use it and it works fine. I have found that a good windbreak around the stove set up helps to keep some warm air around so the cannister won't cool off so fast.