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Done in a Day
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George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Done in a Day on 08/27/2008 18:43:37 MDT Print View

Kevin, Fantastic article!

Twice this summer overnighters became DIADs for me because I went much further than I thought that I could. Lightening up my pack enabled me to do this. And actually both times I (as mentioned in earlier post) mowed the lawn the next day (accumulated spouse credits as a result).

I've avoided cramps by adding a packet of electrolyte power to water after sweating quite a bit. Good stuff!

Another benefit of taking on longer distances than I used to do is I've dropped about 7 lbs off my weight. That's helped on my knees, etc. Less soreness.

This Fall I'm planning to test my limits. Thanks for the inspiration and knowledge.

Andrew Browne
(andrew_browne) - MLife

Locale: Mornington Peninsula AUSTRALIA
"Done in a Day" Pack Selection on 08/27/2008 19:19:37 MDT Print View

Great article, my time constraints mean that I do more of my backpacking in long one day formats
I still have not however found the right one day pack.
As the author states most of the Hydration Packs place their weight on the shoulders not the hips.
My current day pack is an old design Macpac weighing in at 45 oz
Can you please advise you favourite pack that has good hip bearing abilities

Kevin Sawchuk
(ksawchuk) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Northern California
Re: Re: Re: A question for the Doc's on 08/27/2008 23:13:39 MDT Print View

In reviewing Noakes "Lore of Running" tonight K+ and Mg++ are lost in sweat at 1/10th and 1/40th the concentration of Na+. Given that their blood concentrations are lower this might be important in some people. However the reservoir (place they're stored) is not the blood/interstitial fluid for K+ and Mg++ as it is for Na+ so you can probably replenish them more easily than you can K+.

I did not see any numbers for Ca++ loss in sweat. Mg++ is a muscle relaxant in pharmacologic doses (doses beyond what your body needs to maintain its normal level) and either this or your own special needs may account for the effects you've observed.

It's amazing how much we still don't know.

Edited by ksawchuk on 08/27/2008 23:16:42 MDT.

Kevin Sawchuk
(ksawchuk) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Northern California
Re: "Done in a Day" Pack Selection on 08/27/2008 23:15:58 MDT Print View

Regarding favorite pack: Right now it's the ULA Relay. This is a bit big for DIAD but cinches down fairly well, is durable, light and has hipbelt pockets to stash food/electrolytes/drink mix.

Monty Montana
(TarasBulba) - MLife

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Bottles that don't leak on 08/27/2008 23:38:52 MDT Print View

I've taken to using discarded Propel bottles. They're sturdier than most polypro bottles, and the large twist spout is much easier to work one-handed than the push/pull type found on most water bottles. And they don't leak, ever. In addition, they attach quite easily to pack straps with velcro due to the convoluted shape of the upper part of the bottle. I generally have one full of Emergen-C at the ready...lots of flavors to choose from!

Andrew Browne
(andrew_browne) - MLife

Locale: Mornington Peninsula AUSTRALIA
DIAD Pack Selection on 08/28/2008 02:33:45 MDT Print View

Thanks Kevin
Checked out the ULA Relay but at 17oz, is there anything lighter that will put the pack weight on the hips rather than on the shoulders, that is available now.
Checked out the ULA website and it appears they are in hibernation until Dec 2008...........wrong time of the year on your side of the world for that I think
Regards
Andrew (Australia)

Jonathan Ryan
(Jkrew81) - F - M

Locale: White Mtns
Re: DIAD Pack Selection on 08/28/2008 05:39:23 MDT Print View

Hey Andrew,
alot of my hiking due to time contraints is DIAD as well. I have been using a Mountain Laural Designs Super Zip with great success. It is now called the Exodus and weights around 11-12 ounces. You can also add hip belt pockets as well as shoulder mounted water bottle holsters. It is a pretty sweet pack.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: Re: A question for the Doc's on 08/28/2008 08:09:45 MDT Print View

Tom, both calcium and magnesium are excreted by the kidneys, and the amounts excreted go up when they are present in excess. They are both also reabsorbed in the kidney when they need to be so that blood levels are kept normal.

Your cramping is not likely due to either of those minerals. However, if you have found something that seems to prevent them for you, I'd be inclined to keep doing it myself. Exercise-associated muscle cramping is not completely understood.

Kevin, my laboratory medicine textbook (Henry, 19th ed 1996..not latest edition) says this about calcium in sweat,

"estimates of the daily calcium excretion in sweat vary widely-from 15 mg to more than 100 mg. The loss can greatly exceed this range during extreme environmental conditions."

Edited by jshann on 08/28/2008 08:15:51 MDT.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
diad. on 08/28/2008 12:04:46 MDT Print View

kevin.

nice article... thanks for putting it together. i might be heading over milly's foot pass in a few weeks.

cheers!

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: A question for the Doc's on 08/28/2008 18:13:09 MDT Print View

John and Kevin,
Thanks for the info. Maybe I'm experiencing the placebo effect, or maybe it's just my individual physiology at work. Either way, I'm enjoying the journey and the little byways it leads me into, like this one, in my quest to optimize my experience. Training, equipment, diet, physiology, and just the pure joy of being on the move in high places all rolled into one.
One more question for Kevin: The narrative and pictures in your article seem to indicate you do a lot up around the Kings Kern Divide and along the Great Western Divide. Me too. So, I'm wondering if your treat your water and, if so, with what and generally where(e.g. down in the Kern Canyon?, Tyndall Creek, etc).

Connie Dodson
(ConnieDodson) - F

Locale: Montana
Can/Mg and NA/K on 08/28/2008 21:03:29 MDT Print View

Calcium and Magnesium are "lost" in urine, thus urinalysis testing for Ca Mg levels.

I like all four, as electrolyte balance is a "good thing"..but I do not compare myself to marathon runners, or that ilk. I know very well athletic adventurers use special intake rules.

I like Cytosport Cytomax Performance Drink, as directed, to prevent leg cramps if I need to power up a trail and get back out before the local grill closes ..the stuff moves lactic acid, or something, anyway it works!

I drink water.

I also drink more water two-three days ahead.

I am well-hydrated if I pee about every two hours or I can't pick up the skin on the back of my hand.

In the early days of mountaineering we had lemon drops candies to stimulate thirst to help us keep on drinking a little water.

I once had to rescue someone taking salt tablets.. please don't.

Edited by ConnieDodson on 08/28/2008 21:09:36 MDT.

Max Hoagland
(maxhoagland) - F
Back to DIAD on 08/29/2008 11:31:50 MDT Print View

So I don't have access to this article, nor am I planning on getting it, but I was wondering why you would have to bring cooking gear and a 2100 CI pack. The longest day I've ever done was a 20-30 mile ridge traverse in the Wasatch mountains which lasted about 10 hours, or maybe a 12 hour hike in the desert.

Why bring all that gear to sleep a mile in if you could just hike that mile in 15 minutes the following morning?

But I only had a few liters of water, an insulating layer, a rain layer, water purification, and a load of food, which all could have fit in a <1000 CI pack. Something here doesn't seem very lightweight...

Edited by maxhoagland on 08/29/2008 11:35:28 MDT.

jim bailey
(florigen) - F - M

Locale: South East
Why we hiked in a mile and slept out on 08/29/2008 19:04:41 MDT Print View

Max,
The reason Jonathan and I did this was due to logistics. We both had to drive 2+ hours to get to the trail head. Figured it best to drive up straight from work on Friday night, sleep out on the trail and get an early start Saturday then spend as much time hiking as possible. We also liked the idea of carrying a minimal sleep set up in case we decided to stay out longer which I chose to do.

Our packs for this trip each weighted around 12-13lbs which included gear, 100 oz of water and food, we had a dry section of ridge line for 16 miles that required us to pack that amount of water.

Hope this clears things up.

Edited by florigen on 08/29/2008 20:13:39 MDT.

Max Hoagland
(maxhoagland) - F
DIAD on 08/29/2008 20:10:08 MDT Print View

I just don't think that that is a very lightweight way of hiking. I'm not saying I dislike that style of hiking, and I have turned hikes that could have been done in a day into overnighters. But think if the situation was reversed - you plan out a loop, you drive to the trailhead put on your 10 pound pack, hike for 10 hours, then that night, sleeping a mile away from your car. You think "Oui! Why did I hike all that way with this stuff - I could have left it at the car!"

How is this different then lightweight car camping, but carrying all your stuff with you everywhere you go?

I don't have anything against this style, I'm just wondering if it is benefiting my pack weight somehow.

Huzefa Siamwala
(huzefa) - M
Re: Why we hiked in a mile and slept out on 08/30/2008 01:28:19 MDT Print View

Hi Jim,

I with Max. You could have returned early in the morning and left your sleeping gear in your car. For long mileage hikes even a few pounds less on your back makes a quite a difference in comfort in my experience.

Jonathan Ryan
(Jkrew81) - F - M

Locale: White Mtns
Why we hiked in a mile and slept out on 08/30/2008 05:36:53 MDT Print View

hey guys,
the point of carrying a sleep system on a big route is safty in the event you cannot make it back to your car. The route we had planned on doing was 32 miles and we were not sure how far we would make it. I have attempted it several times on a single day push with just a hydartion pack and it always required a long and tiring hike out when I could have saftly spent the night out. But there also comes a point that carrying an SUL sleep system is not going to add a tremendous amount of weight to slow you down that much. Either way to each there own, everyones hiking style can be explained by their past experiences.

Chris Townsend
(Christownsend) - MLife

Locale: Cairngorms National Park
Overnights near road on 08/30/2008 06:48:20 MDT Print View

I'd like to put a different perspective on this. I often do short trips where I walk in for a few hours one evening, camp then have a full day out before returning home. The main reason I do this is for the pleasure of camping in beautiful wild places. I could usually do the whole route in one day id I wanted but I would then miss the evening and the camp. Just a few weeks ago I did this, walking in to a magnificent high level camp and then climbing some summits the next day before descending to the road. The walk-in was 5 miles but my camp was only a half mile from the road though 3000 feet above it - I chose the walk in for the quality of the route rather than the distance. The evening light as I walked in was wonderful and the views from the camp spectacular. The weather changed during the night and I woke to thick mist and heavy rain. As I was already high up I climbed the two major summits on the hill then descended back to the car. The rain continued all day and I was back at the car after only 4 hours. My total walking time for the trip was only 7.5 hours so I could easily have done it in a day. However the highlight was the sunset and the camp so I was happy to carry the extra weight of camping gear.

todd harper
(funnymoney) - MLife

Locale: Sunshine State
Re: Overnights near road on 08/30/2008 07:28:36 MDT Print View

I'm w/Chris.

A few years ago on a section hike of the Foothills Trail in SC, we basically did the same thing. Just bedding down in a pretty spot w/ a creek swishing by was worth the weight.

It didn't matter that it was only 45 minutes away from the road. It didn't matter that the mileage gained that night was almost nil. We were OUT THERE, man!

Todd

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Why we hiked in a mile and slept out on 08/30/2008 15:53:22 MDT Print View

Faster is not always better.

Max Hoagland
(maxhoagland) - F
Re: DIAD on 08/30/2008 16:56:54 MDT Print View

Chris, I have also done that and had a great time. However, I did not take my sleeping bag, stove, shelter, etc, up to the peaks with me.

This is where I'm confused....

I do however, understand the concept of bringing your gear for safety, although the number one plan for LNT is Plan ahead and prepare/ know your limitations. I think if you have your route planned out well enough, and know your limitations, you will not have to risk safety. Do you guys agree?