Companion forum thread to:

Done in a Day

Great article Kevin. Jim Baily and I did exactly this last weekend. We headed up to the Whites on Friday night after work, made camp a mile into the woods and pulled off a sizeable day on Sat. My gear setup was probably the most compact and simple it has ever been and it was wonderful. For the 9-5 Mon-Fri working crowd this is an awesome way to get out, feel accomplished but still have time to mow the lawn on Sunday :)

Great job Kevin!

Many helpful tips here, Johnathan and I found out this past weekend that getting out and doing this type of trip works great with all that you mentioned.

Thanks for providing the great content that keeps us coming back.

Jim

Kevin,

The systems in this article are clear and concise. They present a good goal for the adventurer with limited time and money. Or for smaller nearby parks. I hope to emulate this method someday and get the most out of my weekend.

Two things leave me with questions:
1. how does the adventure racer bottle attachment work? and who makes bike bottles that don't leak?
2. was fuel available for the cigarette lighter mentioned in the second to last paragraph?

Hey Jeremy,
I used front holsters for my water bottles this weekend and it worked really well. I was able to carry a total of 80 oz of water but only have 34 of it on my back. The ones in the pic below are made by Ron Bell of MLD.

Good job. While I am quite familiar with the style, I had never heard of some of the equipment/gear mentioned, so thanks much.
Note: although never mentioned by BPL or anyone else, BY FAR the lightest piece of gear is the credit card! Compare it's 1/5 of an ounce weight to your entire sleeping/shelter system, cooking system, most of your food and some of your clothes. You just have to be quick enough to make it to a motel every night. :-)

While sodium is an important thing to watch, potassium consumption can be even more important - reason to watch the food you consume on harder trips. When drinking electrolyte mixes make sure they are balanced with many items added. Potassium regulates sodium in our bodies - don't have enough and your kidneys will have a harder time if you consume too much sodium. It also helps prevent cramps, nausea and more.
:-)

Hooray for pomegranate juice and dehydrated banana chips!

Prunes.

[Two things leave me with questions:
1. how does the adventure racer bottle attachment work? and who makes bike bottles that don't leak?
2. was fuel available for the cigarette lighter mentioned in the second to last paragraph?]

The racer bottles are attached with either two elastic straps with cord locks attached (and the upper strap needs to be fairly stout) OR you can substitute velcro for the upper strap. The velcro should overlap behind your strap and be long enough that it fits behind the 1/2" webbing strap on the top of your shoulder straps. (The velcro can overlap through the webbing so that it stays put.)

Bike bottles that don't leak can be difficult to find--you just need to tighten them and see if they leak air while in the store. You can usually find a couple that don't leak from most brands.

You saw the lava and no "stuff" growing huh? You are correct, above around 9000' there was no plant material for a fire, but lower on Mauna Loa there was enough scrub to get a fire going if needed. Higher on the mountain I would have been limited to "large muscle aerobics" to keep warm had I needed to spend the night.

[Note: although never mentioned by BPL or anyone else, BY FAR the lightest piece of gear is the credit card! Compare it's 1/5 of an ounce weight to your entire sleeping/shelter system, cooking system, most of your food and some of your clothes. You just have to be quick enough to make it to a motel every night. :-)]

A bit of cash held in one hand makes the hitchhiking thumb much more effective and helps you get to the motel of your choice should you wish to avoid a miserable night out. I usually carry a $20 and a couple of $5 bills with me. My credit card also has a pre-purchased minute phone number on the back so I can get payphone access.

Edited by ksawchuk on 08/27/2008 12:28:53 MDT.

Bring a lady with you ;-) You will always get picked up.

Potassium-rich foods include meats, beans, fruits, and potatoes. The average American diet has an excess of potassium. In the normal healthy hiker, inadequate intake as a cause of low potassium would be very rare. The most common cause of low potassium is increased excretion mostly due to medications such as a diuretic for high blood pressure. Inadequate intake of potassium is usually seen with eating disorders, dental problems and the poor.

Mildly low potassium is usually gonna cause weakness and fatigue, with muscle cramping being seen in more severely low potassium. In other words, the muscle cramping you get on a hike is way more likely to be due to muscle fatigue from overexertion than it will ever be from low potassium (in the normal healthy hiker). By the time you get to the low potassium levels needed to cause muscle cramping, you may be flat on your back needing evacuation.

The mechanisms involved in the usual case of low sodium or low potassium in a hiker are different. It is important for all electrolytes to be at normal levels, but potassium does not really regulate sodium levels. Sodium levels are regulated by the nervous system, kidneys and blood vessel receptors. That doesn't mean some electrolytes can't cause problems with other electrolytes, such as low magnesium causing problems in trying to correct low potassium. That is a whole other chapter in the complexity of electrolytes.

Hikers that are on prescription medications should always consult their physician about their diet while hiking so they don't run into problems on the trail. So, the thing to watch is not your potassium consumption but the prescription medications you are taking.

John

==============
Sarah said:
While sodium is an important thing to watch, potassium consumption can be even more important - reason to watch the food you consume on harder trips. When drinking electrolyte mixes make sure they are balanced with many items added. Potassium regulates sodium in our bodies - don't have enough and your kidneys will have a harder time if you consume too much sodium. It also helps prevent cramps, nausea and more.

Edited by jshann on 08/27/2008 14:43:59 MDT.

I agree with John--Potassium (K+)has very important functions and deficiency can cause major problems but very little of it is lost in normal people even when they sweat heavily. Those taking diuretics are at higher risk for K+ loss but are likely on supplements. Sweat is primarily water, sodium (Na+) and chloride (Cl-). Training in heat results in less sweat that is lower in Na+. Na+ is the primary electrolyte that needs to be supplemented in heavy exercise/sweating.

[I'll try to add the reference from Timothy Noakes, MD from "Lore of Running" an excellent and comprehensive reference for long distance runners. I will also add that I am a MD to give some weight to my assertions above.]

I would not go as far as saying Americans have potassium rich diets. Few do, even fewer eat enough fresh vegetables/fruit and beans to get it. Many Americans eat a typical US diet of fast food and fast prepared food - that is excessively high in sodium and fat yet low in fiber and vitamins and minerals.

It is a REAL issue and should not be discounted.

I can say this - in the past I would often have horrendous leg cramps at night. Once I watched my diet better.....they went away. For me it is a big issue - if I want to pork out on bit more salt I always have a high potassium item with it (OJ, apricots, potatoes, etc). Everything in moderation!

I am not a Dr and don't pretend to be one. I do know that I have been to many Dr's over the years and every single one told me to keep my potassium levels up, eat healthier and to lower my consumption of sodium - and most of all - to not change this while hiking and backpacking. I follow those rules as much as I can and don't feel run down as I did before.

As always: eat a steady diet full of whole foods and you will get what you need in most cases. Eat a diet of junk and well, you get what you eat.

And for those knocking low potassium, that it doesn't exist? I went through that about 2 years ago. It wasn't funny. I could barely get out of bed, I couldn't mentally function, think clearly and had an erratic heart rate. The good thing is I knew something was wrong and it got caught fast. You don't want that 50 miles out due to a lousy diet and over extending yourself.

Sarah,

Don't get me wrong. There are clearly differences between people for reasons other than medications they are on. Some may excreet K+ at a higher rate than others and have a lower "set point" for their level. I don't discount your experiences and I'm glad you've found a fix. Others with similar problems may want to try supplemental K+.

American diets are very poor with excess fat and Na+ and often low nutritional value (trace minerals/vitamins/"other stuff"). The advice is relevant and valuable.

However specifically from an exercise/heavy sweating perspective Na+ is the primary salt lost that needs replacement during exercise. Noakes described the K+ needs of an ultramarathoner as "minimal" and didn't feel K+ supplements were needed during even a hot 100 mile ultra for most athletes.

Great Article!
The San Juan Solstice/Lake City 50 (50 mile Ultramarathon in Colorado) is right in my backyard, so this summer I swept most of it, and am planning on running it next summer, thanks for the inspiration for fast mountain days! Hopefully I'll get the chance this fall to put in some long days here. I also enjoy the slower days too, though, depending on the day and how tired I am!
Anyone tried high mileage days in minimalist style on purpose?
Another trick I've read but not tried is to hike/run through the night and nap during the day as needed, so no sleeping gear is needed (I'd still bring the trash bag or emergency blanket and firestarting kit!)

HI Kevin,
Great article! My question is: Sodium and potassium seem to have been adequately addressed, but how about calcium and magnesium? How extensively are they excreted? And is it prudent to preemptively replace them when enaged in endurance activities?

Neither Ca++ or Mg++ are significantly depleted in sweat. Some people who have had cramps have been helped with one or the other.

Kevin,
A follow up question: Are they eliminated via the kidneys in any significant amount? For years I experienced muscle cramps while engaged in distance running, alpine climbing, and backpacking. I experimented with oral rehydration salts diluted to half strength and that seemed to help, but only a little. More recently I have been using a sports drink that supplies Ca++ at 100 mg, Mg++ at 150 mg, Na+ at 270 mg, and K+ at 160 mg/32 gr serving, mixed in 12 oz of water, along with 24 gr of carbohydrate. Voila, no cramps! I've got to think it was either the Ca++ or Mg++, since I had already tried Na+ and K+ in the rehydration salts. This leads to my question of how I am losing the Ca++ and Mg++ in the first place. If not by sweating, what is the mechanism? I take a daily mineral supplement that provides 100% of the RDV for both Ca++ and Mg++, along with a diet rich in nuts, low fat dairy, and vegetables, so I doubt I would be deficient going into endurance exercise. I'd sure appreciate your, and John's view on this one.
Many thanks.
Tom

Edited by ouzel on 08/27/2008 17:51:18 MDT.

Kevin, Fantastic article!

Twice this summer overnighters became DIADs for me because I went much further than I thought that I could. Lightening up my pack enabled me to do this. And actually both times I (as mentioned in earlier post) mowed the lawn the next day (accumulated spouse credits as a result).

I've avoided cramps by adding a packet of electrolyte power to water after sweating quite a bit. Good stuff!

Another benefit of taking on longer distances than I used to do is I've dropped about 7 lbs off my weight. That's helped on my knees, etc. Less soreness.

This Fall I'm planning to test my limits. Thanks for the inspiration and knowledge.

Great article, my time constraints mean that I do more of my backpacking in long one day formats
I still have not however found the right one day pack.
As the author states most of the Hydration Packs place their weight on the shoulders not the hips.
My current day pack is an old design Macpac weighing in at 45 oz
Can you please advise you favourite pack that has good hip bearing abilities

In reviewing Noakes "Lore of Running" tonight K+ and Mg++ are lost in sweat at 1/10th and 1/40th the concentration of Na+. Given that their blood concentrations are lower this might be important in some people. However the reservoir (place they're stored) is not the blood/interstitial fluid for K+ and Mg++ as it is for Na+ so you can probably replenish them more easily than you can K+.

I did not see any numbers for Ca++ loss in sweat. Mg++ is a muscle relaxant in pharmacologic doses (doses beyond what your body needs to maintain its normal level) and either this or your own special needs may account for the effects you've observed.

It's amazing how much we still don't know.

Edited by ksawchuk on 08/27/2008 23:16:42 MDT.

Regarding favorite pack: Right now it's the ULA Relay. This is a bit big for DIAD but cinches down fairly well, is durable, light and has hipbelt pockets to stash food/electrolytes/drink mix.

I've taken to using discarded Propel bottles. They're sturdier than most polypro bottles, and the large twist spout is much easier to work one-handed than the push/pull type found on most water bottles. And they don't leak, ever. In addition, they attach quite easily to pack straps with velcro due to the convoluted shape of the upper part of the bottle. I generally have one full of Emergen-C at the ready...lots of flavors to choose from!

Thanks Kevin
Checked out the ULA Relay but at 17oz, is there anything lighter that will put the pack weight on the hips rather than on the shoulders, that is available now.
Checked out the ULA website and it appears they are in hibernation until Dec 2008...........wrong time of the year on your side of the world for that I think
Regards
Andrew (Australia)

Hey Andrew,
alot of my hiking due to time contraints is DIAD as well. I have been using a Mountain Laural Designs Super Zip with great success. It is now called the Exodus and weights around 11-12 ounces. You can also add hip belt pockets as well as shoulder mounted water bottle holsters. It is a pretty sweet pack.

Tom, both calcium and magnesium are excreted by the kidneys, and the amounts excreted go up when they are present in excess. They are both also reabsorbed in the kidney when they need to be so that blood levels are kept normal.

Your cramping is not likely due to either of those minerals. However, if you have found something that seems to prevent them for you, I'd be inclined to keep doing it myself. Exercise-associated muscle cramping is not completely understood.

Kevin, my laboratory medicine textbook (Henry, 19th ed 1996..not latest edition) says this about calcium in sweat,

"estimates of the daily calcium excretion in sweat vary widely-from 15 mg to more than 100 mg. The loss can greatly exceed this range during extreme environmental conditions."

Edited by jshann on 08/28/2008 08:15:51 MDT.

kevin.

nice article... thanks for putting it together. i might be heading over milly's foot pass in a few weeks.

cheers!

John and Kevin,
Thanks for the info. Maybe I'm experiencing the placebo effect, or maybe it's just my individual physiology at work. Either way, I'm enjoying the journey and the little byways it leads me into, like this one, in my quest to optimize my experience. Training, equipment, diet, physiology, and just the pure joy of being on the move in high places all rolled into one.
One more question for Kevin: The narrative and pictures in your article seem to indicate you do a lot up around the Kings Kern Divide and along the Great Western Divide. Me too. So, I'm wondering if your treat your water and, if so, with what and generally where(e.g. down in the Kern Canyon?, Tyndall Creek, etc).

Calcium and Magnesium are "lost" in urine, thus urinalysis testing for Ca Mg levels.

I like all four, as electrolyte balance is a "good thing"..but I do not compare myself to marathon runners, or that ilk. I know very well athletic adventurers use special intake rules.

I like Cytosport Cytomax Performance Drink, as directed, to prevent leg cramps if I need to power up a trail and get back out before the local grill closes ..the stuff moves lactic acid, or something, anyway it works!

I drink water.

I also drink more water two-three days ahead.

I am well-hydrated if I pee about every two hours or I can't pick up the skin on the back of my hand.

In the early days of mountaineering we had lemon drops candies to stimulate thirst to help us keep on drinking a little water.

I once had to rescue someone taking salt tablets.. please don't.

Edited by ConnieDodson on 08/28/2008 21:09:36 MDT.

So I don't have access to this article, nor am I planning on getting it, but I was wondering why you would have to bring cooking gear and a 2100 CI pack. The longest day I've ever done was a 20-30 mile ridge traverse in the Wasatch mountains which lasted about 10 hours, or maybe a 12 hour hike in the desert.

Why bring all that gear to sleep a mile in if you could just hike that mile in 15 minutes the following morning?

But I only had a few liters of water, an insulating layer, a rain layer, water purification, and a load of food, which all could have fit in a <1000 CI pack. Something here doesn't seem very lightweight...

Edited by maxhoagland on 08/29/2008 11:35:28 MDT.

Max,
The reason Jonathan and I did this was due to logistics. We both had to drive 2+ hours to get to the trail head. Figured it best to drive up straight from work on Friday night, sleep out on the trail and get an early start Saturday then spend as much time hiking as possible. We also liked the idea of carrying a minimal sleep set up in case we decided to stay out longer which I chose to do.

Our packs for this trip each weighted around 12-13lbs which included gear, 100 oz of water and food, we had a dry section of ridge line for 16 miles that required us to pack that amount of water.

Hope this clears things up.

Edited by florigen on 08/29/2008 20:13:39 MDT.

I just don't think that that is a very lightweight way of hiking. I'm not saying I dislike that style of hiking, and I have turned hikes that could have been done in a day into overnighters. But think if the situation was reversed - you plan out a loop, you drive to the trailhead put on your 10 pound pack, hike for 10 hours, then that night, sleeping a mile away from your car. You think "Oui! Why did I hike all that way with this stuff - I could have left it at the car!"

How is this different then lightweight car camping, but carrying all your stuff with you everywhere you go?

I don't have anything against this style, I'm just wondering if it is benefiting my pack weight somehow.

Hi Jim,

I with Max. You could have returned early in the morning and left your sleeping gear in your car. For long mileage hikes even a few pounds less on your back makes a quite a difference in comfort in my experience.

hey guys,
the point of carrying a sleep system on a big route is safty in the event you cannot make it back to your car. The route we had planned on doing was 32 miles and we were not sure how far we would make it. I have attempted it several times on a single day push with just a hydartion pack and it always required a long and tiring hike out when I could have saftly spent the night out. But there also comes a point that carrying an SUL sleep system is not going to add a tremendous amount of weight to slow you down that much. Either way to each there own, everyones hiking style can be explained by their past experiences.

I'd like to put a different perspective on this. I often do short trips where I walk in for a few hours one evening, camp then have a full day out before returning home. The main reason I do this is for the pleasure of camping in beautiful wild places. I could usually do the whole route in one day id I wanted but I would then miss the evening and the camp. Just a few weeks ago I did this, walking in to a magnificent high level camp and then climbing some summits the next day before descending to the road. The walk-in was 5 miles but my camp was only a half mile from the road though 3000 feet above it - I chose the walk in for the quality of the route rather than the distance. The evening light as I walked in was wonderful and the views from the camp spectacular. The weather changed during the night and I woke to thick mist and heavy rain. As I was already high up I climbed the two major summits on the hill then descended back to the car. The rain continued all day and I was back at the car after only 4 hours. My total walking time for the trip was only 7.5 hours so I could easily have done it in a day. However the highlight was the sunset and the camp so I was happy to carry the extra weight of camping gear.

I'm w/Chris.

A few years ago on a section hike of the Foothills Trail in SC, we basically did the same thing. Just bedding down in a pretty spot w/ a creek swishing by was worth the weight.

It didn't matter that it was only 45 minutes away from the road. It didn't matter that the mileage gained that night was almost nil. We were OUT THERE, man!

Todd

Faster is not always better.

Chris, I have also done that and had a great time. However, I did not take my sleeping bag, stove, shelter, etc, up to the peaks with me.

This is where I'm confused....

I do however, understand the concept of bringing your gear for safety, although the number one plan for LNT is Plan ahead and prepare/ know your limitations. I think if you have your route planned out well enough, and know your limitations, you will not have to risk safety. Do you guys agree?

Max, I agree. I often go out for long days without carrying overnight gear other than light emergency items such as a bivy bag and spare clothing. However I also like to camp and I'm prepared to carry the gear to do this even if I could do the walk in a day without it.

Sorry for the delayed response,
was just out hiking/camping and enjoying being out in the mountains of NH. Chris, I like your style!

As Jonathan mentioned safety was a concern for carrying our sleeping gear, in one of our correspondences dedicated to what we would carry, we mutually agreed on gear for navigation and sleeping only, clothing worn while hiking and first aid/footcare items, no stoves, cookware or other non essential camping equipment.

The route we chose also had serious elevation gain and loss so we were not sure exactly where our bodies might decide to possibly give out & how close the nearest road would be. NH is starting to crack down on hiker search & rescue with it’s Negligent Hiker Act which would charge an individual $15,000 for any evacuation where the involved party was considered unprepared/negligent. 2lbs in sleeping gear could have saved us some serious coin in case things went wrong with a route that was pushing us pretty hard physically.

Earlier this year we had a series of 7 SARs within a 3 week window, tragically with one unprepared day hiker losing his life on the third peak we crossed that day, have learned with experience and time to respect our unpredictable mountains and be ready for the worst (with pretty light or minimal gear) even if the forecast tells otherwise.

Edited by florigen on 08/31/2008 20:32:15 MDT.

I planned a 20+ mile route for this past weekend, part of which was a summit attempt and the crossing of an off-trail pass of unknown quality. I could only retrieve so much beta for this route since it is in a less-traveled area.

I wanted to do the loop in one day but not having control over weather, not knowing the timing needed to summit the peak and not knowing for certain whether the off-trail section to cross into the next drainage was even passable I had to plan for the possibility of spending the night out there in the event I had to backtrack.

Even with these unknowns I had still planned when I expected to reach each of the tertiary destinations, knew when sunset was, knew my abilities, et al. All of these things came nicely together and I hit my times +/- 30 min. and was back at the trailhead two hours before dark.

Other reasons for carrying safety gear with me on a hike is for the training element of it. I consider all hikes training for my future excursions. Winter is approaching here and I'll be forced to carry extra pounds of insulation so carrying extra pounds now will only help build me for what is to come.

*note - This weekend I was especially glad I got the hike DIAD because peering up at the socked-in mountains from the comfort of the coffee shop this morning I can see fresh snow... then again maybe it would have been nice to wake up to a couple fresh inches on the first day of September... oh well.

Other reasons for carrying safety gear with me on a hike is for the training element of it. I consider all hikes training for my future excursions. Winter is approaching here and I'll be forced to carry extra pounds of insulation so carrying extra pounds now will only help build me for what is to come.

Good idea. I'm implementing that starting next hike. Thanks Sam.

> I think if you have your route planned out well enough, and know your limitations, you will not have to risk safety. Do you guys agree?

NOPE.
The weather changes.

Cheers

I agree with Roger, but would also like to add even if you are in good shape and think you understand your limitations, variables can change to fast on a long route. For instance on my most recent trip I started my 6th and last mtn of the day feeling great and ready to push a finish on the whole route. By the time I reached the base of the other side of the peak I was physically finished for the day. Needless to say considering how I felt when I started the climb, I was very surprised at how quickly I bonked on energy.

But on the other hand if you are confident with your chosen route and escape back to your car is easy, I can understand not wanting to take as much gear.

> I think if you have your route planned out well enough, and know your limitations, you will not have to risk safety. Do you guys agree?

>NOPE.
The weather changes.

I always plan on the weather changing. In the Scottish Highlands it often does several times a day. My day hiking kit always includes rain clothing and I always carry enough gear that should mean I would survive a night out - survive that is, not be comfortable or expect much sleep. In summer this just means a light fleece top and a light bivi bag (often a plastic or foil bag). In winter it means an insulated jacket, long underwear, spare socks, spare hat, spare gloves, short foam pad, stove/pot or insulated flask with hot drink and extra food.

I generally drink plain water during the day, unless over 5L. At night I take a liter to bed with me to rehydrate during the night. I add a packet of Alacer ElectroMIX (0.017 oz) to replenish electrolytes and motivate me to drink up. (Alacer is the maker of Emer'gen-C.) It has a slight lime flavor, and avoids the weight of sugar common to most dry sports mixes. I haven't had leg cramps since I started using it.

calories: 0; sugar: 0; artificial sweeteners: 0!; potassium: 100mg; calcium 25mg; magnesium 30mg; manganese 0.5mg; chromium 5mcg

If I need to get kids to drink enough water (sometimes a problem) I carry True Lime from www.truelemon.com. One packet (0.006 oz) in a liter perks the flavor right up. No artificial sweeteners, just a bit of lactose and maltodextrin.

Both of these are UL: 10 packets of ElectroMIX and 5 of True Lime total only 2 oz.

This may sound counter-intuitive, but you don't need to drink too much water. I've learned this over the last few years after giving much thought to the volume flowing in and more importantly flowing out.

I confess that it is wonderful peeing in the wild, but if your pee a L after you drink a L, then you're saturated. Also, I sleep through the night if I watch my water intake later in the day.

This conservative drinking scheme is probably not for everybody, but it might be worth trying if you find yourself marking the trail like a roaming hound.

Specialized makes the best bike bottles. Hammer nutrition sells them as well as Endurolytes. They eliminated my cramping issues in hot weather. Good article BTW.

This great article deserves a bump. I might mention that in addition to the safety benefit of carrying overnight gear for a planned day hike is the peace of mind benefit for your family.

If you tell them that you have planned for an overnight trip but will do it in one day if all goes well, they won't worry if you take two days. On the other hand if you tell them it's a day hike then at some point they start to worry and call S&R and they mobilize at midnight. Not a good situation.

When I was a teenager my folks and I developed a system that was basically a flight plan. They knew what gear I had, how much food, planned route and planned completion date. I always carried extra food and we had a standing agreement that they would alert S&R at noon when I was a day late. That seemed like a reasonable safety cushion and gave enough time that S&R could mobilize and make it to the trailhead in time to interview hikers coming out that day. We thought this was a better system than calling S&R out in the middle of the night when they couldn't really do anything other than starting the mission sleep deprived.