Companion forum thread to:

Plush Pads (Outdoor Retailer Summer Market 2008)

I question how "green" is the use of palm oil. Personally I prefer virgin forests and orangutans to certain "green products"
Franco

I like the weight of the small NeoAir but what is the packed size?

Randy

Yes. While Cascade Designs is taking a good step in using recycled product, marketing palm oil as 'green' is not doing their reputation as an honest, up front, caring sharing company any favours...

Check the NeoAir pack size out here:
http://lighthiker.wordpress.com/2008/08/08/outdoor-2008-sleeping-pads/

POE says in their catalog for 2009 re. the palm oyl usage:
"The palm is not a food replacement crop, nor GMO, but it is not without it's issues, which we are actively working to resolve. Even with it's issues, it is a step in the right direction, because it helps to bring about a market transformation - weaning us off the petroleum that is so prevalent in all products we use today."

I have asked Thermarest for 4 years to make a 25" x 72" pad. To get 25"w you have to get 77" L, which adds weight twice. It should be a no-brainer and will make nights on the trail more enjoyable for those of us who move around during sleep.

Sleepless in Savannah

Thanks for all your good reports!

Lanny

NeoAir vs. Big Agnes Insulated AirCore:

Comparison for 20 x 72 x 2.5 inch rectangular pads


Price: Big Agnes $70; NeoAir $150 = advantage Big Agnes

Weight: Big Agnes 24 oz; NeoAir 14 oz -=advantage NeoAir

Bulk (rolled); about equal = tie (Big Agnes 5x9 inches; NeoAir not listed, only photo)

R value: Big Agnes 4.1 (15°F); NeoAir 2.5 = advantage Big Agnes. I'm surprised at the difference in R values. I had expected the NeoAir to be much higher.

Ease of use - to be determined. Big Agnes inflates and deflates quickly and easily. I still want to see how all that internal structuring affects this with the NeoAir.


Would I pay $80 more to save 10 ounces? Yes, if the R values were comperable. As it stands right now, that's not the case, and I'll keep my Big Agnes Insulated Air core pads.

Wandering Bob

Edited by wandering_bob on 08/13/2008 08:06:08 MDT.

I wonder why they don't make a 25" wide in a 3/4 length. What all us wider guys like to pack longer pads? or I guess they think because we are wider we don't mind packing the extra weight? ... :)

"A traditional backpacker might also include durability and ease-of-use, but I'd argue these are less important to lightweight hikers."

As part of my sleep system, durability is an essential element of design that I look for in a sleeping pad. Perhaps more so in the lightweight world than in traditional backpacking. I recently switched from the torso lite pad for this very reason. Perhaps on a short (>=3 day) trip it doesn't matter if your pad become a self deflater, and in that case maybe one could go without a pad at all to save even more weight, but on an extended trip, with multiple high mileage days in a row, a good nights sleep can be part of risk management. Additionally, without the added insulation of a sleeping pad, many lightweight sleep systems can be easily pushed beyond their useful threshold. In January of this year my self deflating torso lite dropped the effectiveness of my prototype (and admittedly under filled) GoLite quilt from barely comfortable (about perfect, because I had to wear all my cloths) to down right frigid and miserable.

Propagating the stereotype that lightweight gear is or has to be delicate is not helping the lightweight movement gain any momentum in the industry. Certainly there is a balance and trade offs that must be made, but dismissing durability as less important seems to support a consumeristic and disposable culture that I find conflicts with any notion of being greener. It goes REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE for a reason.

Hi Ryan-

I certainly wasn't advocating disposable products, nor was I saying that durability is completely unimportant...merely less important than the other criteria I listed for lightweight use.

Lightweight gear generally requires careful handling to make it work -- be it cuben tarps, silnylon backpacks, propore rainger...the list is long.

I agree completely that there must be a balance -- gear cannot be so light that it is too fragile to perform its intended function without crossing the line into disposable, non-functional, or dangerous. And, I think the NeoAir will pass this test (though, as I mentioned in the article, I'll reserve judgment until we do some field testing.)

As to the lightweight movement gaining momentum in the industry, I recommend Ryan Gardner's "the wait for lightweight" article -- good reading.

Cheers,

-Mike

Not to distract too much from the subject of gear, but Franco's right - there's nothing green about palm oil at this point. Regarding, their assertion that it's a 'step in the right direction', I don't agree. I'm all for CSR, but companies need to do better homework. Palm oil is not a renewable resource.

Aside from habitat destruction in SE Asia and resultant loss of biodiversity, clearing rainforests and burning out peat bogs to convert land for palm oil plantations has made tiny Indonesia the world's second largest greenhouse gas emitter. Add to this widespread corruption and land grabbing by powerful logging and palm interests and the effect on poor and indigenous peoples becomes apparent as well.

Franco's right - there's nothing green about palm oil at this point. Regarding, their assertion that it's a 'step in the right direction', I don't agree. I'm all for CSR, but companies need to do better homework. Palm oil is not a renewable resource.

Aside from habitat destruction in SE Asia and resultant loss of biodiversity, clearing rainforests and burning out peat bogs to convert land for palm oil plantations has made tiny Indonesia the world's second largest greenhouse gas emitter. Add to this widespread corruption and land grabbing by powerful logging and palm interests and the effect on poor and indigenous peoples becomes apparent as well.

“The smallest and lightest pad in this series is the torso-sized extra-small version, measuring twenty by thirty-six inches, and claiming an eight ounce weight.”

This is neat. What is its thickness and roll size?

-Barry

Hi Barry-

Sorry, no info on the rolled size. But the specs from Thermarest show 1" thickness and an R-Value of R-2.2.

Cheers,

-Mike

"... has made tiny Indonesia the world's second largest greenhouse gas emitter."

I don't really want to remark but "tiny" Indonesia happens to have 222 million inhabitants and is the 16th biggest country in terms of land area in the world.

I agree in what you say though.

/J

I have the BA IAC and it's not 24 oz as spec'd, but 28 oz. It's also not as warm as my Thermarest with R2.2. I would estimate it at not more than R1.8. Bob, where did you get the R4.1 value since BA doesn't publish R values??

Edited by richard.s on 03/14/2009 12:03:58 MDT.