Rethinking the Double-Walled Tent
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Adam Rothermich
(aroth87) - F

Locale: Missouri Ozarks
Re: Re: Rethinking the Double Wall Tent on 07/25/2008 05:45:46 MDT Print View

Nope, no typo. BPL sells 1 gram tent stakes.

Adam

Richard Matthews
(food) - F

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Rethinking the Double-Walled Tent on 07/25/2008 07:20:06 MDT Print View

You ground dwellers are so cute when you talk tents.

Seriously, Roger, that tent has huge commercial potential. Lighter and roomier than a 2R. Possibly copy Stephenson models' wardrobe though.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: Rethinking the Double Wall Tent on 07/25/2008 07:32:56 MDT Print View

Those 1 gram stakes are not for regular use and would probably not take much of a pounding (before bending that hooked portion) to get them in the ground.

Michael Davis
(mad777) - F

Locale: South Florida
Re: Rethinking the Double Wall Tent on 07/25/2008 11:34:45 MDT Print View

Roger, that is one great tent and I'm sure many customers would line up for one, but I would suggest that you keep your current wardrobe, even though it does add a few ounces :-)

My view is that there are double wall tents and then there are double wall tents and the two are not the same beast and don't serve the same function, huh?

In other words, there is a double walled summer bug tent and there is a double walled winter bomb shelter. They simply aren't the same, despite the similar name.

My wife & I have a Big Agnes Seedhouse SL3 which is simply a 100% noseeum inner, with a fly that sits just above the ground for ventilation. I camp with it in Florida and don't even use the fly, I just have it ready in case of rain. Keep in mind that bugs live here year round and if one stands still for 5 minutes you will mildew!

That is not the double wall tent that I would take to Everest!

Ross Bleakney
(rossbleakney) - MLife

Locale: Cascades
Rethinking the Double Wall Tent -- Commercially Available on 07/25/2008 13:09:37 MDT Print View

Of the tent makers mentioned

Tent Specs: http://tinyurl.com/6yj4by
Tent Review: http://tinyurl.com/34wrfw

I think the Terra Nova Photon seems closer to the design I had in mind (a mix of mesh and netting for the inner tent). Their claims to be the "lightest tent" are a bit exaggerated, though. The Refuge X is much lighter (1 pound) and sleeps 2. It isn't clear what materials Terra Nova uses. None of the three makers I mentioned use trekking poles for support (a standard approach for tarp tent and six moon). None of them use cuben fiber. It isn't clear to me whether any of them use silnylon (or anything close to that weight fabric). By the way, here is another great home made double walled tent (weighing in at 20 ounces including stakes and poles): http://tinyurl.com/5ast55

Edited by rossbleakney on 07/28/2008 11:56:15 MDT.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Rethinking the Double Wall Tent on 07/25/2008 13:16:14 MDT Print View

That's a great looking tent Roger. I really want to buy a Warmlite tent, but lack of a vestibule keeps on stopping me. If the Warmlite tents had vestibules liks Rogers tent.........

Chris Townsend
(Christownsend) - MLife

Locale: Cairngorms National Park
Double wall tents on 07/25/2008 14:59:38 MDT Print View

The Akto and Photon both have silicone nylon flysheets. The Akto is slightly bigger with a roomier porch for cooking and more stable in strong winds. Just summarising by weight is rather limiting - there are other important factors. The Akto is my favourite tent for year round Scottish use, where the weather is usually wet and windy and in summer biting midges are a big hassle. It wouldn't be my first choice for calmer, drier or more sheltered places though or for places where cooking in the porch was unwise (it's standard practice in Scotland).

Hillberg's lightest two person tent is the Nallo 2, a roomy tunnel that I carried solo the length of Norway and Sweden back before the Akto appeared. It weighs 4lb 3oz.

Hilleberg does make a tent designed for pitching with trekking poles - the single skin Rajd - but the ventilation is poor.

Generally Hilleberg tents are designed for exposed mountain camping. They're unnecessary for forest camping or dry places. I wouldn't take one to the desert SW or the High Sierra.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Rethinking the Double Wall Tent on 07/25/2008 16:20:25 MDT Print View

Big Sky has to get honourable mention if we're going to consider "double tents" with mesh inner.

I would love to have a pattern of Roger's tent. I have this feeling that one of those made out of cuben fibre would be an awesome project! I really like they way the pole sleeves are designed to take the stress out of bending the CF poles. Then again, cuben is very unforgiving in terms out cutting and sewing things just perfectly (because it doesn't stretch), so may not work as well as silnylon. Even a silnylon replica of Roger's tent would be a fun project...hint hint hint.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Rethinking the Double Wall Tent on 07/25/2008 16:41:30 MDT Print View

I would really love to see my two designs in commercial production. REALLY! I would welcome any approaches.

Making these particular designs out of Cuban - tricky. The design details have been optimised for silnylon, and I would need to do a bit of work to make sure that Cuban could handle the localised stresses at the seams. I have tested Cuban samples and found some problems here. But just because it might be difficult doesn't mean it couldn't be done. That Cuban does not stretch - yes, that has implications as well.

The summer tent has been reproduced, with variations, by a few people. You can see their versions starting at www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/DIY_RNCTents.htm
The biggest problem for many people will be making the corners for the poles: I used a lathe and a precision tube bender. getting the RIGHT carbon fibre tubing is also tricky: there are many psuedo CF tubes out there which are totally UNsuited to the job. And some which are really a bit of an overkill.

Cheers

Ross Bleakney
(rossbleakney) - MLife

Locale: Cascades
Rethinking the Double-Walled Tent" on 07/25/2008 17:01:36 MDT Print View

OK, I updated my posts with Big Sky's numbers and the Nallo 2. Now, getting back to my original post, I again ask (rhetorically this time) if the standard ultralight approach makes sense. The standard ultralight approach is that while a double walled tent makes things a bit warmer (and offers other advantages which, for the moment, we will put aside) the difference in weight is too large -- you are better getting a heavier sleeping bag, rather than a double walled tent (for relatively mild conditions -- no snow, mild winds, infrequent rain). For most of the items on the list, I think this is true. The only items where the double walled approach might actually be warmer is maybe the Terra Nova Photon (for one person) or Stephenson's warmlite 2R (for 2).

Fully enclosed single walled single person shelters seem to range from about a pound to a pound and a half. This makes the photon only about 2 to 8 ounces more. Eight ounces more insulation in your bag with a single walled tent would probably be warmer, but I doubt two ounces would.

Similarly, if the Stephenson's Warmlite 2R is really only two pounds twelve ounces, it is quite warm for the weight. With the exception of the Refuge X, most of the two person tarp tents are about two pounds, making the Warmlite only twelve ounces more. Spread between two people, this adds only six extra ounces of insulation. This may be enough to make the single walled tent better, but I would be curious as to how often the phenomenon Will Rietveld mentioned occurs. Does it occur with various temperatures? Does it occur when it rains or when it is dry or both?

Edited by rossbleakney on 07/25/2008 17:02:59 MDT.

Martin Rye
(rye1966) - F

Locale: UK
Re: Rethinking the Double Wall Tent on 07/25/2008 18:16:11 MDT Print View

Mike I did a walk last week with a well known TGO Challenger who had a Warmlite tent. I want one and no porch is not an issue. They cooked on a heat resistant pad in the tent in bad weather with no problems and used the door as a porch via treking poles - see the link for some pics.

http://summitandvalley.blogspot.com/2008/07/dartmoor-bloggers-gathering-unabridged.html

Chris Townsend
(Christownsend) - MLife

Locale: Cairngorms National Park
Double-Wall tents on 07/25/2008 19:00:23 MDT Print View

My experience is that double-wall tents are warmer than single wall ones and that double-wall tents with solid fabric inners are warmer than double-wall tents with mesh inners. But the difference is not enough to make me carry a lighter sleeping bag than with a single wall tent or a tarp. For me the big difference between double wall and single wall tents is condensation. Most of the single wall tents I've used in conditions where I would want a tent rather than a tarp have had inadequate ventilation and condensation has been copious. Those with adequate ventilation have not been wind resistant enough. The exceptions are floorless tents like the GoLite Hex 3/Shangri-La 3. However not being bug proof these aren't suitable for summer. I have yet to find a single wall tent with an attached floor that I really like.

Edited by Christownsend on 07/25/2008 19:02:16 MDT.

Ross Bleakney
(rossbleakney) - MLife

Locale: Cascades
Re: Double-Wall tents on 07/25/2008 22:40:23 MDT Print View

> My experience is that double-wall tents are warmer than single wall ones and that double-wall tents with solid fabric inners are warmer than double-wall tents with mesh inners. But the difference is not enough to make me carry a lighter sleeping bag than with a single wall tent or a tarp.

That makes sense (and did the other things you mentioned and they are part of the trade-offs of single versus double walled tents). The thing that was so surprising to me was the number quoted by Will Rietveld as the difference between the outside temperature and the inside of the tent: 17 degrees (F)! Now granted, that is the the high number -- but if even 10 degrees is common, that would allow you to take a lighter sleeping bag. Perhaps that big a difference only occurs with really cold temperatures.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Rethinking the Double Wall Tent on 07/26/2008 01:34:10 MDT Print View

Thanks Martin.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Rethinking the Double-Walled Tent on 07/27/2008 02:54:26 MDT Print View

Taking note of the above info is then up to us to determine what maybe the best personal solution, I cannot see how any of them will have a universal advantage over all the others.

Anyway, what I would like to know now, ROGER, the ghost that is standing inside your rear vestibule, does it have a name ?
Franco

Edited by Franco on 07/27/2008 02:57:01 MDT.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Rethinking the Double-Walled Tent on 07/27/2008 05:32:34 MDT Print View

> the ghost that is standing inside your rear vestibule, does it have a name
????????????????????????????

Are you talking about the photo of the inside of the tent with my wife sitting to one side? If so, what you can see there are:
1) overlaps in the no-see-um netting making two grey columns
2) a stringybark gum tree some distance away

One part of the overlap makes a mosquito seal between the two hanging door halves without the weight of a zip. The other part of the overlap is just excess width of netting which has to be there to allow me to pull the doors wide open - otherwise the corners make a slight problem. In hindsight, the excess is probably superfluous.

Or have I missed the question entirely?

Cheers

John Gilbert
(JohnG10) - F

Locale: Mid-Atlantic
Re: re Netting inner tents on 07/27/2008 08:09:42 MDT Print View

Post by Roger Caffin:
While I do agree that you don't need a real double-skin winter tent for summer use, I will also argue that you don't need a full netting inner tent in summer either. My single-skin summer tent is fully bug-proof because there is an inner netting wall between the groundsheet and the roof at the sides and there are full netting doors at the ends. Needs to be so in Australia!

The point here is you can eliminate the netting *roof* at no penalty: the design is fully bug-proof as it stands. There are extra benefits of doing it this way: you don't have all that extra weight of the unnecessary/useless netting roof, and you get more headroom as well.
End Quote.

For summer use, I agree - the roof netting is just extra weight since I have to use the outer fly anyway because the rain is so unpredictable (the high heat causes sporadic thunderstorms even on days with clear blue skys). However, condensation isn't a problem, since the night time temperatures are way too high (75*F or more).

For late spring and early fall use though, carrying the inner mesh is easier than waking up to wipe down the condensation, and worrying if I waited long enough for the sleeping bag to dry. The inner fly gets lots of big drops of condensation all over it, because the humidity is usually around 85%.

For actual spring & fall use, the humidity is lower (maybe 65%), but the night time temperatures are lower, so even more condensation results.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Rethinking the Double-Walled Tent on 07/27/2008 08:57:02 MDT Print View

Anyway, what I would like to know now, ROGER, the ghost that is standing inside your rear vestibule, does it have a name ?

Actually I had exactly the same reaction when I first saw your photo! I did a double take with the shadowy figure created by the mesh in the back.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Rethinking the Double-Walled Tent on 07/27/2008 17:30:02 MDT Print View

Miguel can see it too, it must be real...
Franco

Derek Goffin
(Derekoak)

Locale: North of England
Re: Rethinking the Double Wall Tent -- Commercially Available on 07/28/2008 07:53:43 MDT Print View

Terra Nova Laser -- 3 lb. 8 oz. I dont think this is right. The Laser is sold at 1.29 kilo which I make 2 lb 13 ounces. I understood it was 7 ounces lighter than the Acto, and I know it is about 28 ounces lighter than my Nallo.