A 59 inch girth just doesn't work for some of us. My girth around my shoulders and arms is 60 inches. An ultra 20 is 21 ounces in a long ..... pushing the same temps with a bag requires more than a half pound.

I find a bag much too confining and am much more comfortable in a quilt.

From their respective sites the ghost is rated at 32F and the highlite is 35F so their manufacturers say the ghost is warmer than the highlite. Also the highlite is a sewn through box quilt. As such I don't think it's a good comparison against any of the baffled quilts.

Maybe you could compare the highlite more closely to the nunatak AT at 8 oz again significantly lighter than the highlite, but probably not as warm.

There are several questions here, as Ron mentioned, and not separating out the different factors can leave you completely confused.

My wife and I started out, like most others, with sleeping bags. We switched to quilts a few years ago (2004). I made my own quilts: 250 g of Pertex for the shell and 300 g of 800 loft down. They were originally meant as summer quilts only. I repeat: the total weight of each quilt is 550 g (19.4 oz).

FACT: we have used these quilts down to -7 C (19 F). OK, we didn't expect that sort of weather, but we were warm enough.
Now let's look at how we managed to do this.

First, these are not 'narrow' UL quilts. They are wide enough to be zipped into slightly narrow sleeping bags. There is enough at the sides to stop the drafts many refer to. Making your quilt ultra-narrow just for the sake of minimum weight is losing the point of the gear. I am lying there for nigh-on 12 hours!

Second, we often wear thermals when we are sleeping in cold weather. My wife has even worn a Cocoon a few times. But you can't say we are simply trading off *extra* clothing for quilt weight, because the thermals and the Cocoon are our warmth clothing for wearing while having dinner, and even (the thermals) for walking in when it is very cold. We would have this clothing with us anyhow: what is wrong with using it in bed? One could argue that if you have unused clothing beside you at night you are carrying excess weight!

Third, what you sleep on is *critical*. Sleep on something which lets the cold of the ground come seeping up and you will be cold - sleeping bag or quilt. I admire those who can sleep happily on a small bit of 1/4" foam - but it doesn't work when the ground is wet or frosty. We use self-inflating mats, and they are sufficient even on snow.

Fourth (and here you can say that my experiences may not match yours), I don't sleep solo. I have my warm wife to snuggle up to, and believe me that makes a big difference. A sleeping human is equivalent to a 60 W heater, roughly. Solo camping is cold!

Finally, since I have my wife next to me and our quilts are wide enough, I can layer one quilt over the other one, over the top of us. I have done this down to -7 C. Yes, the quilts are a bit slippery, but I can rearrange them in my sleep these days!

So what is my bottom line?
* You need to have functional gear. (Implicit: there is a lot of non-functional gimmick gear out there!)
* You need to know how to use your gear. (This may take experience.)
* You can't just say "quilts don't work" - especially as so many do use them under extreme conditions.

Cheers

Good comments Roger.

I use an Nunatak Arc, which has 2 grosgrain straps running across the open ‘bottom’.

I bonded a loop of grosgrain to the bottom surface of my sleeping pad, about 6” towards my toes, for the lower strap to pass through.

Now when I pull the Arc up across my shoulders it creates tension along the edges and greatly minimizes gaposis . I turn over constantly through the night, and this also helps keep things ‘right side up – open side down’.

Toasty. Light. Compact.

I will post a reply to James' original comments and try to expound upon where he might be coming from. James is not a small guy if I remember from his posts correctly. I myself and 6'5" and weigh about 230#s. I have tried a variety of down quilts and have most of the them to be lacking for three reasons, I am big and tall, I sleep on my side and lastly, I tend to toss a bit in the night.

If you are big and tall most of the down quilts out there will not fit you that well because they are just not wide enough. I have a medium frame but found that even some of the biggest ones available on the market that had a significant weight reduction versus a sleeping bag really didn't fit so well when I was laying on my back and felt just as constrictive as a sleeping bag. These were not even usable when I was sleeping on my side let alone tossing or turning.

But let us look at a quilt that is pretty big, the Nunatak Arc Specialist at 55" wide and 18 ounces. This is a bag that is basically missing the hood and 9" of width from the back. I have seen it fit myself and other big guys pretty well and it is quite usable. But compared to a WM Megalite there is only a 7oz weight savings where with the Megalite you get the hood and the extra piece of the back so that you can button yourself up in case of bad weather for $50 less.

My suggestions is just to get a good 30F or 40F full zip bag that you can use as a quilt when it is warm to cool and button up when it gets cold to really cold and supplement with your clothing. Take the 7oz hit and have a more versatile piece of gear.

Hi Brett. As someone who has recently made the switch to an Arc Specialist, i would say the quilt is the more versatile. I can layer up under it, without compressing any down clothing i'm wearing. You can't do that in a bag, unless you unzip the bag. If you're going to unzip the bag, then you're better off carrying the lighter quilt IMO.
It's not just the weight saving that i like, the freedom to toss and turn is great too.
I can see that a standard quilt may be more problematic for big guys, but i am 5'10", 175lbs, and it's working well for me.

Good Thread. I used my two light weight sleeping bags as a quilt before I even found this sight or heard of quilts. I am 6'2" and 250 lbs. I tried a few different quilts I borrowed from a friend of mine and neither worked well for me. They were to narrow. I have since removed the zippers, cinch cords, and locks from the bags I currently have. It was hard doing it to the near $300 bag. This cut about 2-3 ounces off of each of my bags. My 15 F bag has served me well in temeratures down to 0 F and my summer bag now weighs in at 18.8 ounces. Not bad for a Lafuma 600 bag I bought on clearance for about $35. Especially compared with the cost of many of the quilts at close to the same weight.

A note to the original poster. A lot of the warmth has to do with your additional clothing for warmth. Head wear and poly pro or fleece... Or my favorite 60s wool army long underwhere bottoms. Two sizes too small so they are tight and light, of course. The things that keep you warm in the unexpected wether are important part of a quilt system and an important part of keeping warm when you stop and are tired and hungry.

Edited by cuzzettj on 07/06/2008 11:59:42 MDT.

This topic often seems to come. Of course there is not any sleep system that's "better" than another, but there are some points brought up that I would disagree with.

The first is that using a quilt while camping is just an extension of using one at home. bullocks! The inside of MY bedroom never gets below 50F, it's never windy, and my home quilt is 2.2 metres square, with 3-4 inches of loft. If I met those conditions while camping them I would be very happy with my home quilt! otherwise, I only use a home-made double quilt for summer 2-person hiking. Even then, the home-made aspect is critical. It took us years to work out what we needed in a quilt, and none of the commercially available manufacturers made one.

Second, the bags we use have ample room for layering. I don't consider it either quilt plus sleep layers OR just a sleeping bag. The bag and sleep clothing still compliment and enhance each other.

Third, I too used WM bags for decades as a 'quilt' on hot nights. Problem is, where I hike you can never guarantee what temps you will encounter, so to me the extra weight of carrying a zipper has payed off more times than not. At least I have a choice.

Forth, it seems absurd to me to suggest one of the best thing about using a quilt is having the space to 'move around', and then proclaiming that to keep really warm you also need to use a (confining mummy shaped) bivy bag. To each her own.

Fifth, I gave an Arc Alpinist plus down hood a really good trial with plenty of time to get used to it, and it never worked well FOR ME.

Lastly, this has all become irrelevant to us as we have moved completely over to the WM POD sleeping system. It took a minor modifiaction to allow us to attach the bag to the sleeping pads of our choice, but that's a once off modification, and means we now don't have to carry extra down that gets compressed, or worry about drafts if a bivy bag is not handy, and we can still zip together to snuggle. At 450 grams for the conservatively rated POD 30 or 700g for the conservatively rated POD 15, we don't scarifice a thing for warmth and comfort. Sadly (to us) these bags are no longer availalble. WM screwed up the design and marketing of these bags so that they were not appealing.

Hi allison. It was me who said that using my Arc quilt was the closest i've come to sleeping at home. How do you know that's 'bullocks'? The quilt is wide enough for me to turn around in, just as i do at home. I like to sleep on my side and can tuck my head under the quilt if i'm cold, just like i do at home. I can easily draw my kees up if i want, just like i do at home.
You also said it was absurd for me to say a quilt gave more room if i then confined myself in a mummy shaped bivvy bag. Who mentioned bivvy-bags? I haven't needed to use my Arc quilt in a bivvy bag yet, but if i do, it will be in my TiGoat bivvy-bag, which is long and wide. Nothing like mummy shaped. I wouldn't use a confining mummy shaped bivv-bag. I don't like being confined, which is why i've switched to a quilt.
To each, their own.:)

Yes Mike, to each their own. My Arc-Alpinist was nothing at all like my home quilt, nor are the weather conditions similar. That's why I said it was bullocks FOR ME. Sorry that wasn't clearer. I can't see any advantage to using a quilt over a sleeping bag that can be opened up and used just like a quilt if one chooses (with or without a bivy), but for you there are clearly advantages. I also have a Ti-Goat bivy bag, and though it is not mummy shaped, I find it to be very confining when I have to use it...something I avoid like the plague. I like to stick my feet out when I get too hot, and a bivy bag prevents my feet from cooling quickly, plus I struggle to get in and out of my bag in the night when I use the bivy. I find it claustrophobic, but that's just me (and my partner).

Just to illustrate how much of this is personal preference, I admit that even at home I PREFER to use a tradtional sleeping bag opened up as a quilt. I like the gossamer lightness and warmth, I love the enclosed footbox, and the differential cut of my bag makes it drape perfectly when opened up, so that I don't need it to be as wide as a traditional quilt. The only reason I don't use it all the time is that I don't want to wear it out.

Edited by retropump on 07/06/2008 15:36:47 MDT.

Like i said allison, i haven't used my quilt in a bivvy-bag yet. It hasn't been cold enough for me yet. If it's cold enough for me to need the bivvy, then i probably won't be sticking my feet out.:)
I've never felt strongly enough about the bag v quilt thing to start a thread about it, but i feel that i have to reply when someone says that something doesn't work, when it does for me.:)
We'll call it a draw.:)

"We'll call it a draw.:)"

Naaah, to call it a draw implies there's some disagreement or competition. Hardly the case here. I prefer bags, you prefer quilts. It's not a "right or wrong" issue, just a preference.

I often end up in my bivy bag when I intend to sleep without a shelter, or my shelter (usually a tarptent) is not totally up to the challenge of keeping me dry. Both of these situations can occur when it's not really cold enough to appreciate the extra warmth of a bivy. yuck.

Great, uncommon sense prevails.
So many debates keep coming up, IE down vs. synthetic, tent vs. hammock, boots vs. runners, pumps vs. chemicals, chocolate vs. vegemite and so on, but of course as much as some pretend that only "their" solution works, nothing really can work for everybody everywhere.....
What I find interesting in these threads is how I keep changing my perception of what is right and wrong for me, the downside of that is that it usually involves opening my wallet.
One point we should all agree on, is that when we find a lighter solution without a comfort penalty, it feels great. When lighter is also better it's fantastic.
Franco
BTW, I prefer chocolate.

How on earth could anyone compare chocolate to vegemite?
Doesn't matter, I can't stand either one! I'm a jerky person...

"When lighter is also better it's fantastic"

Amen. Long live the WM PODs ;)

I believe Vegemite is illegal here in the States because I can nver get it anywhere so I have to have it flown in with my Aussie and Kiwi friends whenever they go home and come back. But I can get Marmite. Weird.

If anyone can find a quilt other than the Arc Specialist for us big and tall side sleepers, please let me know and I will give it a shot. 55" girth barely cuts it for me on my side.

Jacks R better carry a whole line of large quilts ... up to 64 inches.

Also ... Nunatak will custom make your quilt to whatever width you want.

I've been gone for entirely too long! I have been using quilts for most of my backpacking trips but have plenty of sleeping bag time on regular camping trips. The quilts i've used ranged from 56" wide rayway style quilts to Fornshell SUL tiny quilts in conditions down to single digits. Aside from off topic things like cuddling if possible, using an adequate sleeping pad (it's lighter to use a full length, warm pad than to have to have more insulation in your bag/quilt to compensate. Also, pad warmth is lighter than crushed insulation warmth, period.), or using a shelter that adequately blocks rain AND WIND from your sleep system as any good shelter should, I have come to my personal conclusion as to the best insulation for most UL backpacking- a topbag.

In my experiences with all 3 insulation systems, all other variables being equal, a topbag with a 1/2 length zipper, drawcord, pad straps and adequately warm hat solves most of the problems of both quilts and sleeping bags.

Weight and Volume- toppbags are lighter and pack smaller than sleeping bags of equal warmth, and quilts of equal warmth (not top insulation weight, but warmth). This is because they have the right insulation in the right areas (high loft on top, pad on bottom), require far less top insulated area than a quilt, along with blocking drafts far more effectively. The large amount of warmth gained over quilts from blocking drafts allows a topbag to have a lower weight of insulation for the same warmth unless the quilt is very large in size with a great seal around the neck. No drafts also means no bivy, sans bugs.

Ventilation- I still haven't quite figured out why quilt advocates can't concede that it isn't hard to unzip a sleeping bag and flap it to ventilate. It is easier to ventilate with a quilt than bag/topbag, but any bag with a zipper should vent well.

Drafts- As mentioned before, topbags do a great job stopping drafts. Drafts were my main reason for converting my quilts to topbags. After the conversion, i was immediately able to tell a significant warmth difference from their former selves because of this.

Tossing and turning- pad straps keep a topbag in place on top of the pad so you can roll around inside and don't have to worry about rolling off your pad like in a sleeping bag. They also prevent the fabric from shifting and coming in contact with cold air. there isn't as much freedom of movement as with a quilt, but you can move your legs around and curl up. I have found that hooded sleeping bags with straps on them won't let you sleep on your belly without a face full of hood, so i keep mine hoodless.

My Examples
For my 11 oz summer quilt that was too small to block drafts at all, I added a 3D footbox to give me more coverage. It still didn't work well enough so I added fabric on the bottom and pad straps at a cost of about 2 oz, with a zipper and drawcord coming soon at another 1.5oz. Not as light, but much warmer and actually usable.

My quilt with 6oz of Ploft which was adequately sized for a quilt got trimmed down a lot, a 1/2 length zipper, drawcord, pad straps, and fabric on bottom. It is now warmer, packs smaller, and is about 5oz lighter, IIRC.

Downsides: cost, availability, still has claustrophobic feel like sleeping bags, can't unzip to be used like a quilt.

Edited by willspower3 on 07/06/2008 23:00:03 MDT.

I concur with David Wills except my double top bag is totally zipped, so it can be quilt when it is warm or even convert back to the Rab 400 mummy bag it started as. I think it is warmest in its top bag for 2 incarnation. It is certainly lighter per person than 2 Rab 400's.

edit we take it as read that we sleep on 3/4 exped down mats (with foam extension) as we like our comfort.

Edited by Derekoak on 07/07/2008 05:15:06 MDT.

Where do you find that is says that JacksRBetter makes quilts up to 64" in width because all I am finding is 48".

Also, I really don't want to spend $500+ from Nunatak for a custom quilt. I think that kind of defeats the purpose of a quilt being light weight and inexpensive.