I’ve been swept up in the marketing of quilts as a lighter alternative for sleeping bags. After the BPL sale a couple weeks ago, I found myself the owner of a BPL UL 180 Quilt. I quickly unpacked it, put down a Gossamer Gear Nightlight 3/4 length pad, threw the quilt over my body, and eagerly awaited the abundance of warmth, comfort, and roominess which I anticipated following.

It never happened.

The reason for my post is to determine if I’m in the minority in my belief that quilts simply aren’t a better alternative to a sleeping bag.

As best as I can justify, the reasons for using a quilt are:

1) Because they are lighter.
2) They offer the user more room since it is much like sleeping in their own bed at home and a quilt allows greater freedom of movement without the restriction of a sleeping bag.
3) Quilts don’t provide insulation under the user because it is deemed as unnecessary as the insulation is nearly useless because it is compressed and the majority of the loft is lost.

Quilts are indeed lighter simply because there is generally less fabric and insulation since no “bottom” is necessary. Quilts also offer the user more movement because they have no “sides” or “bottom” restricting the user. The “bottom” of a sleeping bag is also indeed compressed when a user lays on it and thereby it is less effective then the “top” and “sides” of the bag which aren’t otherwise compressed.

I can’t argue with any of this, but I simply can’t embrace a quilt being “more comfortable” then a sleeping bag. Here are my reasons:

1) Comparing sleeping under a quilt to sleeping on my bed at home is really not a fair comparison. In my bedroom, I don’t have a vast range of temperatures, rain or other climate issues, and usually the surface I’m laying on doesn’t offer many problems. In short, the methods which I use to sleep indoors will not necessarily be effective if I apply them to the outdoors.
2) Second, in my bedroom I have a mattress underneath me which provides both insulation and comfort. A pad of any kind will never equal the insulation or comfort of a bonafide mattress. The “ground” (i.e. earth) is also a far greater challenge to persons seeking both physical and temperature comfort. I acknowledge this isn’t a fair comparison either because the intent is to “go light” while still achieving a tolerable (and hopefully “enjoyable’) level of comfort and functionality which mimics that of normal sleeping behaviors and creature comforts. Even with a good mattress, at least with my backpacking sleeping habits, I'm often off the pad as much as I'm on it. With that said, using a sleeping bag versus a quilt is often the difference of having some insulation against the ground versus none.
3) “Some” insulation provided by the bottom of a sleeping bag, especially when used in conjunction with an adequate pad, by default, provides more insulation and a cushier surface then being without it. Yes, the sleeping bag is compressed making the insulation and materials “less” useful then that on top, but it still provides “some” benefits which are otherwise non-existent when using a quilt.
4) Due to the changing environment of the outdoors, greater warmth can be achieved by lessening the dead airspace of whatever the user is attempting to keep them warm. A sleeping bag is intended to offer a cocoon-like sleeping system to mitigate colder temperatures whereas a quilt is meant to be tucked under the user…as best the user can tuck a quilt….when the temperature drops. By using the quilt tucking method, the user is then restricted to lying nearly motionless unless the user doesn’t mind constant readjustments and bites of cold air from gaps following each subtitle movement. In reality, in anything other than perfect weather in which a quilt doesn’t need to be tucked in, quilt users are at least equally restricted in their freedom of movement as they too need to “wrap-up” for greater warmth. I also find it a little odd that ULers are willing to embrace a lighter quilt, but don't seem to bat an eye that often they bring additional clothing to allow them comfort in lower temperatures which often raises their overall weight to the same as a sleeping bag anyway.

Basically, I just can’t see how using a quilt is very affective in outdoor conditions other than perhaps in the summer months when the user simply wants a little top coverage, but otherwise it isn’t terribly necessary. Even if a quilt is used during the summer months, an amount of ground comfort, no matter how slight, is still sacrificed by the lack of “extra” ground padding which would have been otherwise provided by a sleeping bag. (This assumes that surface conditions are the same as obviously a surface with more duff and natural insulation can make all the difference when trying to stay warm and comfortable on the ground.)

In short, am I the only guy who thinks standard quilts are not nearly as comfortable as a sleeping bag nearly at every angle? I’m using the term “standard” because obviously you could bring a king-size quilt which would mitigate most of these concerns, but this size quilt would be neither practical nor lightweight for backpacking.

Please note, this isn’t a criticism of the BPL UL 180 Quilt, which as per usual from BPL, was made very well, was very lightweight, and was impressive for other reasons. I think I would feel the same way regardless of what quilt I used or if I even just spread out a sleeping bag.

So what is your vote? Are sleeping bags more comfortable then a quilt in most situations and environments in which a typical backpacker would encounter and more effective in every temperature other than the warm/mild summer months? Much like with hammocks, I have a feeling quilts are an acquired taste and I'm willing to accept that if ultimately I'm simply in the minority and personally just don't feel the claimed "quilt comfort".

Edited by regultr on 07/05/2008 08:39:42 MDT.

James,
Everyone has their own sleeping requirements, habits and positions. While I agree with your 3 reasons to use a quilt, I disagree with your requirement for bottom insulation of a bag. I have a sleeping pad for that (RidgeRest). Depending on the time of year, I may use two of them for added insulation (RidgeRest and GuideLite).
While I do own both sleeping bags and quilts (even a UL180), I prefer the quilt but will move to a bag for the coldest part of winter. For the other 3 seasons, the quilt provides flexibility in my sleeping habits. It allows greater movement, better ventilation control and still keeps me warm.
Is it your impression that all quilts fall short of your needs or just the one you got? I like the MLD XP quilt more than the BPL design. MLD's footbox is not sewn and the quilt can be opened up like a blanket. There are also other designs by other manufacturers, but these two are the only ones I've used. For instance, the JRB specs seem small and they don't do custom work to fit the larger folks, but I look forward to testing a Nunatak one day. Living in the SE US means living with humidity. For this reason alone, I have decided to stick with synthetic insulation. The Arc design would surely work for me too, but the thought of collapsing down doesn't do much for morale when I'm miles away from the truck or home.
Quilts work for some people, but not all. YMMV.
Chris

James,
I'm glad you brought up this topic. I'm both a quilt and a bag user. In essence, I distinquish the two by temperature.

In summer, my wife and I use a double quilt which I made. As you point out, in mild conditions, drafts and such aren't as critical. I'll go a step further and say that quilts offer an advantage in summer as I find them easier to push aside if I'm overheating. I also like the comfort factor of feeling less restricted.

However, in winter you will have to pry my sleeping bag from my cold, dead fingers! I personally, could never dupicated the bag's cocoon cozy comfort with a quilt. This may be in part, due to the fact that both my wife and I sleep like acrobatic monkeys instead of imitating King Tut.

As to bottom comfort, we use P.O.E. 3/4 length Max Thermo air pads insulated with synthetics. Therefore, bottom comfort is not a factor.

So, here in one post, I'll agree and disagree. That's probably a sign of what's to come!

Great topic!

Edited by mad777 on 07/05/2008 08:15:12 MDT.

The bit about the acrobatic monkeys had me laughing out loud. Did you modify your tarp to include clips for hanging a trapeze?

Actually Chris, we are tent folks. So, if an observer were outside our tent at night, it would look like a Tom & Jerry cartoon!

Yep, the many shortcomings of quilts are often glossed over by quilt-fanatics.

Weight- yes they are lighter by themselves, but when you add in the things that actually make them equivalent to sleeping bags, such as an insulated hat, a bivy sack to stop drafts, a longer sleeping pad to deal with no insulation at all under legs, the decreased weight isn't really that significant.

Comfort- yes you can open them up flat, and unlike *some* sleeping bags, it doesn't have a bulky hood at the end you put up against your face. But the fact of the matter is, your comforter at home doesn't weigh 11 ounces, nor does it have a slippery shell fabric. An ultralight quilt draped over ones body will slide off easier than you think.

Warmth- yes they have a potential to be almost as warm as a sleeping bag of equal loft, but due to lack of zipper, hood, and bottom insulation, they can never be quite as warm, simply due to their design. Thus, the weight loss seen in quilts is not proportional to sleeping bags because they are less efficient as insulation.

That said- it's hard to argue with an 11 ounce 40 degree down quilt that packs down to the size of a grapefruit when pack weight is all you know or care about. For warmer weather, there's no reason (besides their astronomical cost) not to shave a few ounces in favor of an ultralight quilt.

Edited by artsandt on 07/05/2008 08:33:19 MDT.

Well, I remember when quilts were a summer thing. One of the biggest advantages was being able to loosly cover or half cover yourself on nights that were on the hot side. Just read Jardines "Beyond Backpacking" even he states that it was for summer use. Then people wanted to push the envelope and see how far they could take it. But for me, I have a down quilt that I think of as summer insulation but I have been in 30-32 degree weather with it -wearing a montbell down jacket and hat ect. But I would like to get one of those Montbell super strech bags for cooler weather for all the reasons stated here.

Edited by MAYNARD76 on 07/05/2008 08:58:26 MDT.

I have both quilts and sleeping bags, and will say
that the quilt took some practice to get it right. One thing that I love about quilts is that I can curl up in a ball and not worry about ripping my sleeping bag open. I found the ultralight sleeping bags (typically narrow) didn't let me bring my knees up to my chest without really stressing the material...so I ended up opening the sleeping bag up to allow more movement. Naturally, I went with a quilt next. I love them now..and if you really want to save weight - try out the half bags - I'm moving to one for the winter aswell.

Since you asked for votes, here's mine. I have come to prefer a quilt to a bag in most conditions. I think it's because I move my legs around a lot when I sleep so I feel somewhat claustrophobic in a bag compared to a quilt. I just generally sleep better using a quilt.

Most of my nights are now in a hammock and quilts are far easier and more comfortable to use in that situation.

But comparing apples to apples, on the ground I sometimes use a bag when it is well below freezing, since it does provide better draft elimination and better coverage for the head.

The weight differential doesn't matter that much to me (blasphemy here I know). I am willing to add whatever ounces I need to to get a good night's sleep. It is nice that the quilt is lighter but it is not my primary consideration.

I'd say whatever gear works for you, use that.

John

I was a 'bag man' for over 30 years. I say was, because i'm now a 'quilt man'. I used my new Nunatak Arc Specialist for the first time recently and i'm now a convert. I too am a restless sleeper, and the ability to move around as much as i like was great. I had the straps fastened loosely under my mat and never felt any draughfts. It was the closest to sleeping at home as i've been outdoors. The temp was probably 6-8C and i was wearing a merino l/s top and briefs. I started off with a micro-fleece top and merino beanie as well, but took them off as i was too warm.
I wish i had tried a quilt years ago.:)

Thanks for bringing up the subject! I've been somewhat bemused by the quilt approach for some time.

Here's the thing: Compared to a high-quality sleeping bag, there isn't always a weight difference. If I can get more warmth and more versatility for the same weight, why on earth would I get a quilt? (Before I expound upon this further, I should point out that in summer I, like Michael above, use a double quilt with my girlfriend--covers the entire floor of the tent. Weight is 26 ounces "split" 2 ways, 13 oz bags... But actually, it's a sleeping bag, Western Mountaineering's MityLite...)

Direct comparison: Nunatak's Arc Ghost w/ Western's HighLite. The Ghost has 46" of shoulder girth, 8 ounces of fill, weighs 14 ounces, and costs $328. The Highlite has 59 inches of girth, 8 ounces of fill, weighs 16 ounces, and costs $270. Or for a roomier cut, the Arc Specialist and WM's Caribou: The Specialist has a girth of 55", fill of 8 ounces, weight of 16 ounces, and costs $362. The Caribou is 64" girth, 10 ounces of fill, 20 ounce weight, and costs $270. (Like anything, you could compare other things. I've seen "UL" quilts significantly heavier than, say, WM bags. But the Nunatak:WM seems to be the fairest.)

Ok. So there's a 2 ounce difference in the first example, a 4 ounce difference in the second. The bags, though, add hoods, zippers, and the option of full enclosure. With the Caribou, if you unzip the bag all the way you've got a quilt. Yes, I know people argue about the hood being in the way. For the added versatility, I deal with it--just as you've gotta deal with inopportune air flow with a quilt. If I'm in "quilt" mode with a bag, it's normally warm enough that I just slide the bag further down and angled a bit; full coverage, no hood issues.

When I'm side sleeping in a mummy, I roll over with the bag. My whole body stays insulated. I don't have to finagle (sp?) anything. I can use it as a quilt if it's warm out, or zip it up and cinch the hood down when it's cold. Adaptable to a very wide range of conditions.

I do like some of the ideas of quilts. I like the idea of being able to do away with things like draft tubes. But if I can get something within a few ounces that realistically adds much more warmth (up to a third of heat loss from the head? Just bring a balaclava? Or just use a bag?) and versatility--and costs less--that's what I'll do.

You are not playing fair Brad.;)
The difference in weight between the WM MityLite(26 ounce) and Arc Ghost(14 ounce) is 12 ounces. Not 1 ounce.
The Arc Specialist(16 ounce) is 10 ounces lighter.
Do you leave half your WM MityLite behind if you're on your own?:)

Edited by MikefaeDundee on 07/05/2008 11:04:51 MDT.

Debunking Myths are about bring relativity to falsehoods. The myth of "The World is Flat" is either right or wrong. Fortunately today it's relatively easy to prove it one way or the other.

What's true or false about how well our personal gear will perform under any specific conditions depends upon our own personal realities. What works perfectly fine for me may in fact be absolutely miserable for you.

Also gear that appears to function poorly may in fact prove quite useful depending upon our level of knowledge at the time.

Many years ago, the first few nights using my new down sleeping bags were absolutely miserable. In spite of the fact that it was rated to 20 degrees and the temperature never dipped below 30. It wasn't until I realized that I was sleeping on an old fashion thick air mattress did I understand why I was so uncomfortable.

For more than thirty years I've slept with a sleeping bag draped as a quilt. I also discovered that many times I would sleep warmer when using it as a quilt that fully zipped up.

Knowing that quilts work fine for me, I felt the transition to a dedicated quilt would be a no brain-er. In fact that wasn't true. The first few times I used my new quilt, I had miserable nights sleep.

Unlike the nice wide sleeping bag, quilts are cut much narrower. Lacking the additional drape of fabric and down around me, I needed to rethink my sleeping arrangement.

It took a few experiments, but I was able to cobble together a collection of gear that does the trick.

While still not as warm as my 20 degree bag. I'm able to sleep in reasonable comfort down into the 20's. My quilt is over a pound lighter than the sleeping bag.

Ron

Edited by rmoak on 07/05/2008 11:28:09 MDT.

It's actually the higher fill bags that have the greatest weight difference. For 20F rated bags the Nunatak Alpinist is 20 oz compared to the WM ultralite at 29 oz. A 9 oz difference is significant in my book. Subtract on 1-2 oz for a hood and I still have about 1/2 lb difference.

I've just switched to a quilt (golite ultra) and it does take a little practice. The first night out I continually got drafts as a role. I switch between back and side sleeping throughout the night. But after a couple of nights I got better at the technique of holding the quilt in place as I rolled to eliminate the drafts. And, with a little more practice, I think I can eliminate the drafts so I'm happy with an extra 1/2 lb off my back.

I agree that when pushing the temperature rating of a quilt it is just as confining and more fiddly than a mummy bag as it takes a technique to move without cold drafts. But with a successful technique they are equivalent in terms of warmth with the quilt being much lighter. And trading technique for weight is what this site is all about.

James, I got to say that using the mummy bag for minimal bottom insulation because you can't reliably stay on your sleeping pad seems a bit silly. Wouldn't it be better to use a few oz to get a wider/better pad that you can stay on through the night?

Edited by nschmald on 07/05/2008 11:33:58 MDT.

Quilting does not rest on irrationality. Whether to quilt or not to quilt depends on individual preference, skill, technique, metabolism, and circumstance. For example, to adequately protect from elements, tarping usually mean incorporation of a bivy sack. With a bivy, one of the quilt's "drawbacks" -- occasional drafts that creep under a shifting quilt -- is greatly ameliorated, if not eliminated entirely. And weight saved by a quilt vs a bag remains intact under a tarp since a bag-using tarper would likely also use a bivy to protect the bag from elements.

Aside from eliminating drafts, it would appear that a quilt's warmth is enhanced by use of a bivy that helps to confine, conserve body warmth. Also rational to carry but a single item (balaclava) that's useful both as a "hood" with a quilt and for warmth at other times.

After all, a sleeping bag's hood is pretty cumbersome to wear while on the trail or around camp.

What works for some doesn't make it best for all. Nor for the same person for every circumstance. Otherwise, there wouldn't be vast varieties of every type of gear available on the market. And no need to figure what to use, when to use it, where to use it, and how to use it. No more fun.

JRS

The Highlite is not exactly a good comparison to the Ghost. Based on the way each company rates their product there is only a 3 degree difference, but there is basically a 1/2 inch loft difference (2" on ghost, 3.5" on Highlite which is split between the top and bottom).

The Highlite also has only a half zip which really limits venting options in warmer weather.

I love my custom Ghost, which Tom made for me with an ounce less down and slightly shorter baffles as a summer quilt.

The advantage of using a quilt with extra clothing to extend the temperature range is that you can still be wearing some of your warmth when you get up in the morning. Generally folks will take a jacket and hat at least and maybe some base layer pants to wear around camp in the evenings and mornings. So you can use what you are packing anyway to carry less sleeping insulation than you normally would. It works great for me. I love not dreading that moment of opening the sleeping bag to face losing all the warmth I built up during the night.

I think the secret for me at least on a quilt is not cutting the girth too close, which is why I went with the wider Ghost than the lighter but narrower Edge. I seldom have issues with losing heat to drafts. It's no more of an issue than having compressed my sleeping bag underneath and then rolling over and having a cold spot on my hip where the insulation was compressed, and having to wait to warm up until it lofts again.

I liked my WM Ultralite, but have always felt confined in it if I fastened it all the way up, so I was usually using it in 'quilt' mode anyway.

Hah! No, I wasn't comparing MityLite:Ghost. Was HighLite:Ghost. Highlite 16oz: Ghost 14oz.

If only I could add a SUL zipper on the other side of the MityLite and make it 1/2...:)

If I've ruffled any feathers ;), didn't mean to. Just enjoy playing devil's advocate/stimulating conversation. I'm brand new to this community, and absolutely love seeing what everyone has to say.

For the record, (1) I don't work for WM :) (2) Ultralite 6' is 26 oz. Ghost is 21; w/down balaclava 25 (suspecting that few would use down balaclava??). Realize most would wear fleece hat @ an ounce, though... I do like the "walk around in warmth idea..."

Edited by 4quietwoods on 07/05/2008 13:41:03 MDT.

Brad,

It's through discussions like these that we learn, so you've done a great service I think.

Some will never be comfortable sleeping with a quilt. Others will find them the best thing since sliced bread. It's good to get both perspectives for those considering making the move.

I think Ron had a very good point - even those who have primarily used a sleeping bag as a quilt may have a bit of an adjustment period getting used to sleeping under a narrower girth quilt. And I think not going too narrow, at least at first, is a real help. For those thinking about making a move, the Ray Jardine quilt kits are relatively inexpensive. That's what I first went to before investing in my Ghost. Now I use it as a loaner or for my grandkids, both of which it's perfect for being synthetic and easily washed. If you have beginner sewing skills (or a good friend/spouse that sews) it's a good way to test the water without spending a lot of cash.

I agree that a quilt's place is summer sleeping.

I have a WM Megalite BAG. On hot nights I unzip it full length, tuck the foot of my full length UL Thermarest in my bag's foot & have a great night's sleep using it as a quilt.

That said, I'd ALWAYS want a bag on any night colder than 70 F.

With lightweight long polyester underwear & stocking hat I've slept comfortably in that Megalite bag at 22 F.
Try THAT in a summer quilt!

Eric
P.S. I must add that THE most comfortable night's sleep I've had in the outdoors is the 1st time (& succeeding times)I used my summer mummy bag as a quilt. So I can thoroughly relate to why people like quilts and use 'em when they can.

Edited by Danepacker on 07/07/2008 21:45:07 MDT.

Just curious, is 1/2 the Highlite's down on the bottom? If so, seems like the Ghost would be warmer.

I have a custom Ghost (1.5" baffles) I use for hammock camping. It is much easier to get into than my sleeping bag. It's also easier to regulate the temperature.

Edited by scmorse1 on 07/05/2008 18:41:24 MDT.

A 59 inch girth just doesn't work for some of us. My girth around my shoulders and arms is 60 inches. An ultra 20 is 21 ounces in a long ..... pushing the same temps with a bag requires more than a half pound.

I find a bag much too confining and am much more comfortable in a quilt.

From their respective sites the ghost is rated at 32F and the highlite is 35F so their manufacturers say the ghost is warmer than the highlite. Also the highlite is a sewn through box quilt. As such I don't think it's a good comparison against any of the baffled quilts.

Maybe you could compare the highlite more closely to the nunatak AT at 8 oz again significantly lighter than the highlite, but probably not as warm.

There are several questions here, as Ron mentioned, and not separating out the different factors can leave you completely confused.

My wife and I started out, like most others, with sleeping bags. We switched to quilts a few years ago (2004). I made my own quilts: 250 g of Pertex for the shell and 300 g of 800 loft down. They were originally meant as summer quilts only. I repeat: the total weight of each quilt is 550 g (19.4 oz).

FACT: we have used these quilts down to -7 C (19 F). OK, we didn't expect that sort of weather, but we were warm enough.
Now let's look at how we managed to do this.

First, these are not 'narrow' UL quilts. They are wide enough to be zipped into slightly narrow sleeping bags. There is enough at the sides to stop the drafts many refer to. Making your quilt ultra-narrow just for the sake of minimum weight is losing the point of the gear. I am lying there for nigh-on 12 hours!

Second, we often wear thermals when we are sleeping in cold weather. My wife has even worn a Cocoon a few times. But you can't say we are simply trading off *extra* clothing for quilt weight, because the thermals and the Cocoon are our warmth clothing for wearing while having dinner, and even (the thermals) for walking in when it is very cold. We would have this clothing with us anyhow: what is wrong with using it in bed? One could argue that if you have unused clothing beside you at night you are carrying excess weight!

Third, what you sleep on is *critical*. Sleep on something which lets the cold of the ground come seeping up and you will be cold - sleeping bag or quilt. I admire those who can sleep happily on a small bit of 1/4" foam - but it doesn't work when the ground is wet or frosty. We use self-inflating mats, and they are sufficient even on snow.

Fourth (and here you can say that my experiences may not match yours), I don't sleep solo. I have my warm wife to snuggle up to, and believe me that makes a big difference. A sleeping human is equivalent to a 60 W heater, roughly. Solo camping is cold!

Finally, since I have my wife next to me and our quilts are wide enough, I can layer one quilt over the other one, over the top of us. I have done this down to -7 C. Yes, the quilts are a bit slippery, but I can rearrange them in my sleep these days!

So what is my bottom line?
* You need to have functional gear. (Implicit: there is a lot of non-functional gimmick gear out there!)
* You need to know how to use your gear. (This may take experience.)
* You can't just say "quilts don't work" - especially as so many do use them under extreme conditions.

Cheers

Good comments Roger.

I use an Nunatak Arc, which has 2 grosgrain straps running across the open ‘bottom’.

I bonded a loop of grosgrain to the bottom surface of my sleeping pad, about 6” towards my toes, for the lower strap to pass through.

Now when I pull the Arc up across my shoulders it creates tension along the edges and greatly minimizes gaposis . I turn over constantly through the night, and this also helps keep things ‘right side up – open side down’.

Toasty. Light. Compact.

I will post a reply to James' original comments and try to expound upon where he might be coming from. James is not a small guy if I remember from his posts correctly. I myself and 6'5" and weigh about 230#s. I have tried a variety of down quilts and have most of the them to be lacking for three reasons, I am big and tall, I sleep on my side and lastly, I tend to toss a bit in the night.

If you are big and tall most of the down quilts out there will not fit you that well because they are just not wide enough. I have a medium frame but found that even some of the biggest ones available on the market that had a significant weight reduction versus a sleeping bag really didn't fit so well when I was laying on my back and felt just as constrictive as a sleeping bag. These were not even usable when I was sleeping on my side let alone tossing or turning.

But let us look at a quilt that is pretty big, the Nunatak Arc Specialist at 55" wide and 18 ounces. This is a bag that is basically missing the hood and 9" of width from the back. I have seen it fit myself and other big guys pretty well and it is quite usable. But compared to a WM Megalite there is only a 7oz weight savings where with the Megalite you get the hood and the extra piece of the back so that you can button yourself up in case of bad weather for $50 less.

My suggestions is just to get a good 30F or 40F full zip bag that you can use as a quilt when it is warm to cool and button up when it gets cold to really cold and supplement with your clothing. Take the 7oz hit and have a more versatile piece of gear.

Hi Brett. As someone who has recently made the switch to an Arc Specialist, i would say the quilt is the more versatile. I can layer up under it, without compressing any down clothing i'm wearing. You can't do that in a bag, unless you unzip the bag. If you're going to unzip the bag, then you're better off carrying the lighter quilt IMO.
It's not just the weight saving that i like, the freedom to toss and turn is great too.
I can see that a standard quilt may be more problematic for big guys, but i am 5'10", 175lbs, and it's working well for me.

Good Thread. I used my two light weight sleeping bags as a quilt before I even found this sight or heard of quilts. I am 6'2" and 250 lbs. I tried a few different quilts I borrowed from a friend of mine and neither worked well for me. They were to narrow. I have since removed the zippers, cinch cords, and locks from the bags I currently have. It was hard doing it to the near $300 bag. This cut about 2-3 ounces off of each of my bags. My 15 F bag has served me well in temeratures down to 0 F and my summer bag now weighs in at 18.8 ounces. Not bad for a Lafuma 600 bag I bought on clearance for about $35. Especially compared with the cost of many of the quilts at close to the same weight.

A note to the original poster. A lot of the warmth has to do with your additional clothing for warmth. Head wear and poly pro or fleece... Or my favorite 60s wool army long underwhere bottoms. Two sizes too small so they are tight and light, of course. The things that keep you warm in the unexpected wether are important part of a quilt system and an important part of keeping warm when you stop and are tired and hungry.

Edited by cuzzettj on 07/06/2008 11:59:42 MDT.

This topic often seems to come. Of course there is not any sleep system that's "better" than another, but there are some points brought up that I would disagree with.

The first is that using a quilt while camping is just an extension of using one at home. bullocks! The inside of MY bedroom never gets below 50F, it's never windy, and my home quilt is 2.2 metres square, with 3-4 inches of loft. If I met those conditions while camping them I would be very happy with my home quilt! otherwise, I only use a home-made double quilt for summer 2-person hiking. Even then, the home-made aspect is critical. It took us years to work out what we needed in a quilt, and none of the commercially available manufacturers made one.

Second, the bags we use have ample room for layering. I don't consider it either quilt plus sleep layers OR just a sleeping bag. The bag and sleep clothing still compliment and enhance each other.

Third, I too used WM bags for decades as a 'quilt' on hot nights. Problem is, where I hike you can never guarantee what temps you will encounter, so to me the extra weight of carrying a zipper has payed off more times than not. At least I have a choice.

Forth, it seems absurd to me to suggest one of the best thing about using a quilt is having the space to 'move around', and then proclaiming that to keep really warm you also need to use a (confining mummy shaped) bivy bag. To each her own.

Fifth, I gave an Arc Alpinist plus down hood a really good trial with plenty of time to get used to it, and it never worked well FOR ME.

Lastly, this has all become irrelevant to us as we have moved completely over to the WM POD sleeping system. It took a minor modifiaction to allow us to attach the bag to the sleeping pads of our choice, but that's a once off modification, and means we now don't have to carry extra down that gets compressed, or worry about drafts if a bivy bag is not handy, and we can still zip together to snuggle. At 450 grams for the conservatively rated POD 30 or 700g for the conservatively rated POD 15, we don't scarifice a thing for warmth and comfort. Sadly (to us) these bags are no longer availalble. WM screwed up the design and marketing of these bags so that they were not appealing.

Hi allison. It was me who said that using my Arc quilt was the closest i've come to sleeping at home. How do you know that's 'bullocks'? The quilt is wide enough for me to turn around in, just as i do at home. I like to sleep on my side and can tuck my head under the quilt if i'm cold, just like i do at home. I can easily draw my kees up if i want, just like i do at home.
You also said it was absurd for me to say a quilt gave more room if i then confined myself in a mummy shaped bivvy bag. Who mentioned bivvy-bags? I haven't needed to use my Arc quilt in a bivvy bag yet, but if i do, it will be in my TiGoat bivvy-bag, which is long and wide. Nothing like mummy shaped. I wouldn't use a confining mummy shaped bivv-bag. I don't like being confined, which is why i've switched to a quilt.
To each, their own.:)

Yes Mike, to each their own. My Arc-Alpinist was nothing at all like my home quilt, nor are the weather conditions similar. That's why I said it was bullocks FOR ME. Sorry that wasn't clearer. I can't see any advantage to using a quilt over a sleeping bag that can be opened up and used just like a quilt if one chooses (with or without a bivy), but for you there are clearly advantages. I also have a Ti-Goat bivy bag, and though it is not mummy shaped, I find it to be very confining when I have to use it...something I avoid like the plague. I like to stick my feet out when I get too hot, and a bivy bag prevents my feet from cooling quickly, plus I struggle to get in and out of my bag in the night when I use the bivy. I find it claustrophobic, but that's just me (and my partner).

Just to illustrate how much of this is personal preference, I admit that even at home I PREFER to use a tradtional sleeping bag opened up as a quilt. I like the gossamer lightness and warmth, I love the enclosed footbox, and the differential cut of my bag makes it drape perfectly when opened up, so that I don't need it to be as wide as a traditional quilt. The only reason I don't use it all the time is that I don't want to wear it out.

Edited by retropump on 07/06/2008 15:36:47 MDT.

Like i said allison, i haven't used my quilt in a bivvy-bag yet. It hasn't been cold enough for me yet. If it's cold enough for me to need the bivvy, then i probably won't be sticking my feet out.:)
I've never felt strongly enough about the bag v quilt thing to start a thread about it, but i feel that i have to reply when someone says that something doesn't work, when it does for me.:)
We'll call it a draw.:)

"We'll call it a draw.:)"

Naaah, to call it a draw implies there's some disagreement or competition. Hardly the case here. I prefer bags, you prefer quilts. It's not a "right or wrong" issue, just a preference.

I often end up in my bivy bag when I intend to sleep without a shelter, or my shelter (usually a tarptent) is not totally up to the challenge of keeping me dry. Both of these situations can occur when it's not really cold enough to appreciate the extra warmth of a bivy. yuck.

Great, uncommon sense prevails.
So many debates keep coming up, IE down vs. synthetic, tent vs. hammock, boots vs. runners, pumps vs. chemicals, chocolate vs. vegemite and so on, but of course as much as some pretend that only "their" solution works, nothing really can work for everybody everywhere.....
What I find interesting in these threads is how I keep changing my perception of what is right and wrong for me, the downside of that is that it usually involves opening my wallet.
One point we should all agree on, is that when we find a lighter solution without a comfort penalty, it feels great. When lighter is also better it's fantastic.
Franco
BTW, I prefer chocolate.

How on earth could anyone compare chocolate to vegemite?
Doesn't matter, I can't stand either one! I'm a jerky person...

"When lighter is also better it's fantastic"

Amen. Long live the WM PODs ;)

I believe Vegemite is illegal here in the States because I can nver get it anywhere so I have to have it flown in with my Aussie and Kiwi friends whenever they go home and come back. But I can get Marmite. Weird.

If anyone can find a quilt other than the Arc Specialist for us big and tall side sleepers, please let me know and I will give it a shot. 55" girth barely cuts it for me on my side.

Jacks R better carry a whole line of large quilts ... up to 64 inches.

Also ... Nunatak will custom make your quilt to whatever width you want.

I've been gone for entirely too long! I have been using quilts for most of my backpacking trips but have plenty of sleeping bag time on regular camping trips. The quilts i've used ranged from 56" wide rayway style quilts to Fornshell SUL tiny quilts in conditions down to single digits. Aside from off topic things like cuddling if possible, using an adequate sleeping pad (it's lighter to use a full length, warm pad than to have to have more insulation in your bag/quilt to compensate. Also, pad warmth is lighter than crushed insulation warmth, period.), or using a shelter that adequately blocks rain AND WIND from your sleep system as any good shelter should, I have come to my personal conclusion as to the best insulation for most UL backpacking- a topbag.

In my experiences with all 3 insulation systems, all other variables being equal, a topbag with a 1/2 length zipper, drawcord, pad straps and adequately warm hat solves most of the problems of both quilts and sleeping bags.

Weight and Volume- toppbags are lighter and pack smaller than sleeping bags of equal warmth, and quilts of equal warmth (not top insulation weight, but warmth). This is because they have the right insulation in the right areas (high loft on top, pad on bottom), require far less top insulated area than a quilt, along with blocking drafts far more effectively. The large amount of warmth gained over quilts from blocking drafts allows a topbag to have a lower weight of insulation for the same warmth unless the quilt is very large in size with a great seal around the neck. No drafts also means no bivy, sans bugs.

Ventilation- I still haven't quite figured out why quilt advocates can't concede that it isn't hard to unzip a sleeping bag and flap it to ventilate. It is easier to ventilate with a quilt than bag/topbag, but any bag with a zipper should vent well.

Drafts- As mentioned before, topbags do a great job stopping drafts. Drafts were my main reason for converting my quilts to topbags. After the conversion, i was immediately able to tell a significant warmth difference from their former selves because of this.

Tossing and turning- pad straps keep a topbag in place on top of the pad so you can roll around inside and don't have to worry about rolling off your pad like in a sleeping bag. They also prevent the fabric from shifting and coming in contact with cold air. there isn't as much freedom of movement as with a quilt, but you can move your legs around and curl up. I have found that hooded sleeping bags with straps on them won't let you sleep on your belly without a face full of hood, so i keep mine hoodless.

My Examples
For my 11 oz summer quilt that was too small to block drafts at all, I added a 3D footbox to give me more coverage. It still didn't work well enough so I added fabric on the bottom and pad straps at a cost of about 2 oz, with a zipper and drawcord coming soon at another 1.5oz. Not as light, but much warmer and actually usable.

My quilt with 6oz of Ploft which was adequately sized for a quilt got trimmed down a lot, a 1/2 length zipper, drawcord, pad straps, and fabric on bottom. It is now warmer, packs smaller, and is about 5oz lighter, IIRC.

Downsides: cost, availability, still has claustrophobic feel like sleeping bags, can't unzip to be used like a quilt.

Edited by willspower3 on 07/06/2008 23:00:03 MDT.

I concur with David Wills except my double top bag is totally zipped, so it can be quilt when it is warm or even convert back to the Rab 400 mummy bag it started as. I think it is warmest in its top bag for 2 incarnation. It is certainly lighter per person than 2 Rab 400's.

edit we take it as read that we sleep on 3/4 exped down mats (with foam extension) as we like our comfort.

Edited by Derekoak on 07/07/2008 05:15:06 MDT.

Where do you find that is says that JacksRBetter makes quilts up to 64" in width because all I am finding is 48".

Also, I really don't want to spend $500+ from Nunatak for a custom quilt. I think that kind of defeats the purpose of a quilt being light weight and inexpensive.

My disagreement is possibly only academic, but how can people say that quilts are, overall, lighter, when you can get sleeping bags (eg: WM Summerlite) which are only a little over 500g? Most quilts are around 500g to begin with, so what's the big deal?

If you LIKE sleeping under a quilt, get one. If you don't, get a bag. However, saying that one is better than the other is just dumb.

I, personally, find bags better, but I always like a more constricted sleeping system. Freud would probably say it's out of longing for the womb or something. I say it's more comfortable, but again, that's subjective.

http://www.jacksrbetter.com/index_files/Large%20Quilts.htm

The Quilts are 84 x 61.

Mark

If loft and materials are equal, then a sleeping bag that has a zipper will have the weight of the zipper in addition to the body of the bag. Normally, it will also have a hood which adds some weight and is not a dual-duty item - unlike a balaclava or stocking cap.

That said, a quilt, depending on design, may need a little more width to tuck under the sleeping pad to eliminate drafts, and may not "follow" a restless sleeper like a mummy bag will.

Winter campers tend to prefer mummies for their draft resistance and for the full head coverage a hood provides. A full mummy with a half zipper may, therefore, be warmer for the same weight than a quilt. But that is generally true only for full-on winter weather, IMHO.

For more general conditions, where ventillation is an issue, it is really difficult to find a sleeping bag that is more comfortable than a quilt for the equivalent weight. Think about the two-way zipper around or to the foot - or rather, think about sweating in a too warm mummy bag without ventillation. A larger, stronger zipper is pretty much vital for handling the stresses put on a full, two-way zip.

Those are bottom line issues. My experience - as opposed to theory - is that I have stopped using mummy bags entirely, and have been comfortable under a quilt down to 7 degrees F. I suppose if I were planning an arctic expedition or below-Zero camping, I would consider using a bag again. But I don't backpack under those conditions.

Edited by vickrhines on 07/07/2008 11:44:17 MDT.

Thanks, had not seen those before. They still weigh about the same as a bag though so not much gain there.

Don't know which one is better for anyone but myself.
Which is better for me, doesn't matter to anyone else.

But what is known toyou and me:

A quilt is more comfortable than a quill
(except for porcupines)

Your bag is more comfortable in a kilt
(refer to thread debating kilts vs pants)

In his kilt, Quinn from the Cuillin built a quilt.
(just made that up)

Vick said it best in the above post. Simple and elegant solution to a problem: a quilt.

David, I often struggle with terminology, but is a "Top Bag" similar to the WM POD?? If so, although I agree that it is by far the most efficient sleep system in terms of weight:warmth, it is clear that a lot of folks don't like feeling confined even if there IS a zipper available to ventilate.

As for someone who commented RE: needing a beefy zipper, we have had nil problems with the YKK #5 on the WM PODs. Maybe some of you shadow box in your sleep which might put undo stress on a zipper? Along those lines of thinking, I notice that people like me (dedicated back sleeper, no tossing and turning) do much better with bags than side/front/tosser-turners. We also can get by with less cushioning in our sleeping mat. We are basically a superior design for UL sleeping ;) I can even sleep without a pillow.

The only time I zip my sleeping bag up is if it's cold...so I'm not very swayed by the case that a quilt is in any way superior in warm weather. I sometimes even sleep on top of my bag in sultry weather. Another thing that seems to make a difference is how predictable the weather is. If you know for sure it's not going to be very cold, then a quilt is a nice way to sleep, but in my neck of the woods, the weather forecast is not even good for the day it's issued, and we routinely get 4 seasons in one day. So I wouldn't step out the door without a system that could see me through a wintry night, even in summer. For all these reasons, a top bag/POD makes the most sense, but not for many other folks with different styles and climates. In my youth I hiked a lot in the western US, and found the predictable and often mild weather pretty easy to plan for. Not so since I've moved to a small mountainous island in the middle of the southe Pacific!

Now someone mentioned Marmite. I wouldn't enter into an arguement with Franco that chocolate is better than Vegemite, but I WILL happily defend Marmite as the only yeast-based spread that is edible. Anyone who disagrees with me is just plain wrong!!

Depends on what you want them to do ..... if you want a big boy bag they're in the ballpark.

If you can fit in a 59 inch girth bag then I would question why you want a quilt with a girth larger than 48 inches with some quilt wings.

Just a thought ....

I would have to agree with allison regarding the fact that back sleepers are much better suited for UL sleeping. If you know you aren't going to toss and turn, you can minimize the amount of fabric you need.

In that same vein, has anyone had any success in actually converting themselves TO back sleeping? I'm a side sleeper and 'manage' to sleep on my back if I need to, but don't sleep nearly as well as on my side. Any success stories?

Also, top bags are a good compromise between a bag and a quilt but don't seem to have any of the advantages of either. They make more sense to me though...

I used to be a front sleeper, but was forced to convert after a neck injury. So maybe you could try whiplash or something similar and see if you find back sleeping any easier?? I find I also have fewer back pains since I've become a convert. but I don't seriously think, short of an injury or drug-induced coma, that you can force yourself to sleep in a manner that is not your style. Maybe if you were a highly advanced Buddhist monk you could do it, but then again you would no longer need a sleeping bag OR mat to keep warm on a snowy moutain top ;)

One of the nicest things about a good top bag, aside from the weight savings, is the way it frimly attaches to your pad. Makes it very difficult to roll of your insulation even if you are a wiggly sleeper. You should see my partner all cocooned up in a WM POD that is firmly velcroed to the bottom of a Stephenson's DAM. There is no snugglier looking set-up on the planet! Of course, as a back sleeper I am quite content with my torso-sized Ridgerest. I can also sit up in my bag, which my partner can't do with a DAM attached to the bottom of the bag.

rene,

i am a lifelong side sleeper, but it took me about a week of hard hiking and sleeping on a z-rest to make me into a back sleeper for the duration of my 5 month pct hike in 2004.

so it can be done. of course, it helps to be 1) very tired at the end of the day, and 2) sleeping on a mat that makes side sleeping sort of uncomfortable!

like the original poster, i also don't see a huge value in quilts, since i like to roll around, and it seems like when people talk about quilts, they are always adding insulated clothing (e.g. cocoon), a bivy sack, etc. to keep out drafts and make them warm enough. the weight differences between a quilt and WM Caribou MF (that i have taken down to freezing) just aren't enough to convince me.

but, yes, i think we should all do whatever we want, sleep in what we want, etc. it's no big deal!

Edited by DaveT on 07/07/2008 16:20:12 MDT.

Possible sleeping conversions...

The Batty - Hanging upside down from a limb

The Horsey - Standing during sleep

At Work - hand on mouse, head facing screen, trying not to snore

As for sleeping on your back, you can train yourself to do this easily by doing so at home. I did this last winter. When backpacking I start sleeping on my back. I still switch to one side on another for awhile when I wake up, but it is not a problem using quilts. My favorites are the No Sniveller (JacksRBetter.com) and also the 2Thirds XP Quilt (MountainLaurelDesigns.com) with Cocoon Hoody. They work fine FOR ME. But could be fatal for others.

ha! of course they do.
so much fuss from the ground dwellers over which is better... I can tell you this, when it comes to hammocks, quilts OWN. Mummy use in a hammock is a PITA - that is one wrestling match im not interested in joining.

very true. i still prefer quilts to sleeping bags any day (above 20*). I probably never would have switched to topbags if I had replaced my 2nd broken silk hammock from a year ago. looking at those bridge hammocks that have come about in the past few months makes a fabric order that much more appealing. The problem is, $40 for hammock fabric and bug netting would also lead to the $300 obligatory summer/winter over/underquilt setup and a few weeks at the sewing machine, or even worse- taking apart my topbags!

I will not give up my quilts.

I have used my Arc Specialist from about 50 down to about 10 degrees with layering, including my Skaha Plus. I have used my 4 oz overfilled Arc Alpinist down to Zero with minimal layering in my BD Firstlight. Minimal layering is thermal top and bottoms, R1 Hoody and Cocoon Balaclava. A sub 2 pound quilt that keeps me warm to zero or below is something I had searched long and hard for.

As a bonus I think a quilt is easier to use with a bivy sack. Easier to get in and out of and also easier to control ventilation for warmer temps.

I chose the quilts because I am a flip flopper when I sleep. I can maintain coverage and comfort with a quilt.

Since I got the pleasure of starting this thread, I figured I should also add my two-cents following all the great responses. First, it never ceases to amaze me how much experience and critical thought members carry with them on this site. 99.9% of the time, this is exactly the kind of site which should serve as a model of integrity and competency which I wish others would follow.

On to the greater subject however, as a handful picked up on, my likely problem is my size. I am 6’6” and 265 pounds. I have 37” arms and a 52” chest, and yes, I’ve played my fair share of sports at a high level. My size has hampered me in many aspects of life and backpacking/camping gear is no different. My first attempt at a quilt was a BPL UL 180 and my second was a WM Highlite which I intended to use as a quilt. With both, and admitting a slight exaggeration, it was like putting a washcloth on my chest. The UL 180 went up to my armpits and even the simple act of breathing opened up gaps on the sides. The Highlite was similar. As I looked harder into what kind of quilt would work for me, I started noticing that increases in size which I needed to cover my large frame meant significant increases in weight. In fact, I simply don’t know of a sizeable quilt which would weigh less then a lightweight sleeping bag which ultimately I could use as both a quilt and bag anyway.

After talking with Tom at Nunatak and comparing the weights, sizes and costs against JRB, I decided to go back to WM and I purchased the 35 degree Caribou MF. At 21 ounces for the 6’6” bag, it offered the weight and size I think I needed. I say “think” because I haven’t received it yet as I’m waiting for the box from MooseJaw to arrive. Hopefully it will work out. I’m definitely willing to give quilting a shot as it clearly has its followers and solid logic. I am the proud owner of both the Cocoon UL 60 hoody and PRO pants, so I’m fairly confident that I can stay warm if I need to layer more than my usual base of a merino top and bottom with fleece baklava. My only concern is if I have to resort to the Cocoon, whether just the hoody or hoody and pants…is the weight. With a 21 ounce sleeping bag, and adding roughly 12 oz for the hoody and 13+ ounces for the pants, I’m looking at a range of 21oz to 46oz for the whole sleeping system….not counting the bivy (6.5 oz) if I’m tarp camping….that’s a wide range and likely some excess weight. I admit that it would likely be a rare situation if I needed all the Cocoon gear and probably the best advice is to review the conditions and pack smartly. Then again, if I needed the hoody and pants when I slept, I’d likely need it to some extent in the mornings and evenings too. In this case, it would clearly serve two purposes and mitigate the “sleeping system” weight concerns.

Thanks to all for their comments and experiences.

Edited by regultr on 07/08/2008 10:44:02 MDT.

I'm a sleeping bag user til death! (well, i'll probably stop backpacking sometime before i die, i imagine.)

That said, the Caribou MF is a great bag. I use it as my three season bag, wearing all my clothing if it gets down near freezing. It's light, packs small, and has a full zipper for opening it up quilt style when it's warmer (as you know). If it gets colder, it's on to the WM Alpinlite (also an amazingly great bag).

I still don't understand carrying along insulated layers (e.g. cocoon jacket/pants, micropuff pullover) in order to make your thin quilt/bag warm enough to survive sleeping in, if those insulation layers are TOO hot to hike in. I'd rather carry the appropriately rated sleeping bag, with just a windshirt and maybe R1 pullover (or maximum a puff vest) for hiking in cold temps, and wearing in the bag. I'd hate to carry around a cocoon hoody and pants all day long and never wear them except in camp and in my skimpy bag/quilt. But that's for 3 season hiking in the west - of course, if it's really cold, it would make more sense. Anyway, do whatever all y'all want to!

Cheers!

Edited by DaveT on 07/08/2008 10:08:30 MDT.

I also have a Caribou, and I love it. For the OP I am 6'5", but fluctuate between 185 and 200 lbs. My bag is a long and weighs 23.95 oz, so that 21 oz weight you quoted is probably for the regular length bag.

As for wearing layers inside of it, that is exactly what I do. I carry a Micropuff and a pair of Cocoon pants. This allows me to sleep comfortably well below the rating of the bag so that I don't have to carry a bag with a lower rating. Mind you I only carry this setup in really cold weather as I also wear it around camp.

This has been a great thread. It's interesting from a philosophical perspective to see just how... passionate people get about their chosen favorite gear. As several people have already mentioned, bottom line is that you've gotta use what works for you. For the sake of discussion, and for those folks who haven't found the system that works best for them yet, I'd like to add a couple more thoughts/responses.

I'm absolutely baffled ;) at posts which have claimed that quilts are more versatile. Again, I mean no disrespect on anyone's favorite sleep system. But here's why the versatility argument doesn't work for me: You can only use the quilt in one position/fashion. With a sleeping bag:

1) Versatility-- I use bags as a quilt in the summer. Same set-up as quilt users. I do have the added 1 ounce of zipper to contend with. However, if temperatures drop I have the option to fully zip up and cocoon myself. With the integral hood (and perhaps even draft collar) I can absolutely minimize heat loss or cold entering my sleep system.

With a sleeping bag, I can also shift down in the baffles so that there's essentially no down on top of me, only under, when I'm using it as a bag. The only way I can see this working with a quilt is if you were using it like a bag.

I like the concept of dual-duty balaclava--and I do carry one. However, I think it's a little strange to say that you get near equivalent warmth as a sleeping bag hood. One reason purely how much insulation. But more importantly, air flow reduction. If you're wearing your down jacket, do you wrap your... well, if there's not a layer you're not wearing, do you wrap that around your neck and spread out to the edges of your pad/quilt to reduce air flow on cold nights?

2) Ventilation-- Come on, people, let's be realistic. I can ventilate a sleeping bag every bit as well as a quilt. I'm using my bag the same way! Or, if I'm "inside" it, I just unzip and stick body parts out or flap it.

3) Layering-- I fail to see how it's possible to layer under a quilt and not under a bag. I wear layers--up to and including down jackets--in my bags on a regular basis. Never had a problem with it.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that it's ultimately folly to say one is right and one is wrong, because in reality there are more similarities than differences in the two sleep systems. I'll fully admit that my quilt experience is limited to using my bags in the same manner. But it still seems to me that from a logical perspective sleeping bags do have more inherent versatility, regardless of user skill, temps, or whatever. Ultimately, I think the weight issue is not a foregone conclusion in favor of quilts. I've seen many, many quilts online that weigh far more than readily available sleeping bags. I think one reason that this forum has more familiarity with lighter-weight quilts stems from the large MYOG contingency and fringe-ish factions of the backpacking community as a whole. Much remains open to debate, and I hope that y'all enjoy the intellectual stimulation and conversation we find here!

Oh. Last thought. I've seen several posts from quilt folks who use them down to cool/cold temperatures. But I'm wondering if, generally speaking, people who use quilts tend to be using them in warmer climes. (I'm from the south shore of Lake Superior; summer nights into the forties are not strange, spring/fall freezing or under.)

Edited by 4quietwoods on 07/08/2008 13:46:48 MDT.

Here's why i think my quilt is more versatile.
My sleeping system has between 8 and 15.5 ounces of down.
8 ounces is in the Arc Specialist, 5.5 ounces is in the Skaha Plus, and 2 ounces is in my Montbell UL Down Inner Pants. All the Arc down is above me. None is being compressed under me. I only carry the down clothing if it's cold enough.
If all your 15.5 ounces of down is in a sleeping bag, then what do you wear around camp or at rest stops? Part of my sleeping system is clothing. That's versatility. Also, most good quality down bags are close fitting for thermal efficiancy. There is little room to wear down clothing inside without it being compressed and losing loft. You could unzip the bag, but then it becomes a quilt.

regarding comment #2, that argument only works for some bags. There are a handful of bags with 1/2 or 2/3 zip that dont ventilate as well as a quilt. The reason I went to a quilt to begin with was trying to use a Highlite (1/2 zip) and ventilate in Grand Canyon at 60 degrees. It isnt possible, and I was struggling between sweat and chills. I quickly sold that bag seeing that is was not versatile as a quilt, and will not use a bag with a small zipper in the future. The Highlite was replaced with the FAR more versatile JrB "hudson river" quilt. (opens flat, forms footbox, large size, underquilt for hammock, by far more versatile than your current bag, I promise :) )

it's funny how we all pick out different tidbits to point out what we like is better than what you like.

re: 1/2 and 1/3 zipper bags. i don't think anyone's talking much about using these as quilt-surrogates. my light caribou mf is full zip, and works like a charm.

re: down bags cut tight for efficiency, so no room for down clothes in it. dunno - plenty of room in my two WM bags for whatever i want to wear in them, plus tossing and turning.

re: clothes at rest stops and camp. scotland's probably different than the summer sierra! rest stops are usually laying on a warm rock, or in some shade napping. and if i'm cold in camp, i get in my sleeping bag, and cook, read, drink scotch, etc. from there. if the clothing that is used for a sleep system too is too hot to hike with a backpack in, i'd end up carrying it all day, perhaps just for a little sitting outside the tent warmth in camp. don't want to do that (for my typical conditions).

there are lots of reasons back and forth, and lots of different applications in different conditions, temperatures, etc. so it's all good. use what ya wanna use!

and wait... i just thought of something... if you wear a cocoon jacket and pants to bed, aren't you compressing THAT down underneath you? can't we come up with a quilt-style jacket and pants, that only have down on the front and sides (like a hospital gown viewed from the back). i mean, why carry that down in your jacket and pants if you are just going to compress it by laying on it. :) of course, you'll get some nasty chilly drafts if wearing your back-side-less down pants at a rest break!

Edited by DaveT on 07/08/2008 14:40:19 MDT.

Mike Reid, the arc design does have down tucked under the sides that is being compressed in order to stop drafts. All you have to do is look at the back of the bag to see that.

The Arc has down at the top and sides for insulation, but not under me unless i choose.:)

Some more intersting ideas are cropping up here. Some things are becoming obvious.

First, size matters ;) A thin-ish person will be be able to layer more comofrtably under a bag/quilt than a girth-ier person using the same system. That' a no-brainer.

Second, Style matters. Around half of our trips are what would be called "social trips". These may be with friends, with a tramping club, or to a public hut. Many of these trips include arriving at camp/hut early, having afternoon tea, appetisers, mains, deserts and drinks before a game or two of cards. In this environment it would be no fun at all if you had all your insulation in just your sleep system and you were too cold to hang around camp.

Third, climate matters. In winter days are short, which means nights are long. A LONG time to just lie in your sleeping bag. And any time of the year here, you can get a gale force storm blowing the essence of penguins straight off the Antarctic. Going to answer nature's call in these situations with nothing more than a merino top and windshirt can become an epic.

Systems matter. Mike uses 8 ounces in the Arc Specialist, 5.5 ounces is in the Skaha Plus, and 2 ounces in his Montbell UL Down Inner Pants. This sounds EXACTLY like my setup most of the time, except my 8 ounces are in a WM POD 30 instead (truly all the on on top except for a smidgen in the hood). I also use a Skaha hoody plus in winter (UL down inner jacket in 'summer') and down UL pants. This is the ultimate in versatile sleeping. I just add layers as needed, I can unzip the bag completely as I warm up, and in huts I sometimes just sleep on top of my bag while wearing my down layers. No problems with confined sleeping when I do that! Of course, a wider peson couldn't layer as effectively in a POD, so in that case a full bag or quilt WOULD be better, as would a custom made top bag.

Personal disposition matters. I don't think I could ever be tired enough to sleep in a hammock unless it was pitched on the ground. They give me motion sickness. End of story.

Budget matters. For some, a system like the no-snivellers may be best because they need only purchase one item to use as both sleeping and around camp wear. Or the LuxuryLite V-bag may be best due to lack of funds to splurge on down. Or a MYOG Ray-Way quilt might be a good option for those on a tight budget. Synthetics may be preferable both due to cost as well as cold humid climates. And so it goes on and on. Isn't it great that we have so much choice that we need to have boards like this to help us sort through all those choices?!

you said "I can ventilate a sleeping bag every bit as well as a quilt"
there was no mention of zipper length. Only info I had to go on was your "a sleeping bag" comment. Still, the caribou is a nice bag but cannot be used as an underquilt, so as far as Im concerned, the Hudson River wins, for me. I have overstuffed it with 2 oz of 900fp down and it has a loft of 3.75 inches (ONE layer, not doubled up as a mummy bag is measured, like the summerlite with its 1" baffles). There is no mummy bag on this planet that can offer that much loft for 21oz. That is my biggest joy, and concern.
*oooh, and I almost forgot, the Hudon River with a head hole (called the No-sniveller) can also be worn as a poncho. Thats versatility!

Edited by mikeinfhaz on 07/09/2008 11:11:14 MDT.

Good summary Allison.
I like the 'essence of penguins' too!

yep allison, you put it well.

there are many different uses, climates, situations, preferences, people, and everything. it's great to be able to talk with so many experienced people about what works for them in certain situations. then i can try to see if it works for me, saves me weight, saves me money, saves me fuss, is cooler, more fun, etc.

right on.

Well said allison.
I can see that hiking 'style', and daylight hours, makes a big difference to what system suits best. My 'style' is very similar to yours. I too often hike socially with friends. In winter we can have loooong dark nights, and i don't want to spend 18 hours stuck in my only insulation. I want to be able to sit up and talk as a group.
It's easy to forget that we're all from various parts of the planet with different needs and wants.:)

Okay, okay... I couldn't resist a couple more comments. My Western Summerlite has 9 ounces of fill, 4" of loft, and weighs 19 ounces. I've shifted the majority of the down to the top layer, creating a POD-ish top bag with a solid 7-8 ounces on top, and creating between 3-4 inches of loft on top. My Western Flight jacket has about 5 ounces of down and weighs 10.5 ounces. I can move freely in the bag, no compression of down. I wear fleece (Ugh, am I really gonna admit this?) tights for lower insulation. If it's colder, I'm in the bag. So even with a bag system, my down is distributed about like Monsieur Reid's... :P Oh, and yeah, I don't get 1/2 zip bags, either. You don't get the best of quilts or bags, restricted ventilation, blah... ! Don'tcha just love it?!

I have been using a quilt on my last outings. Our scout troop will be off to Philmont New Mexico and I wanted to see how I like it. BPL UL60 quilt (I think that's what it's called).

1. At the beach on an overnighter: excellent since temps were mid 50's. Just laid it on top. Perfect.

2. Local mountains: Low temp: 38. A bit drafty. I tend to roll and the back of the quilt would open up and let in air between upper and bottom layer of clothing. Need better bottom insulation. I am using a torso lite pad and had to put my pack under my legs for added insulation. My feet got a bit cold due to contact with the ground. Could take my Prolite 3 Regular but am trying to keep weight down.

3. Local mountains again: Low temp 45. Not bad. Same set up. Very little insulation but still a bit drafty. I have a trip starting tomorrow for 2 nights and will come up with a verdict then.

If I had a choice I would just take my WM Highlite. However, my kids are using my bag and I am trying to avoid buying another bag. The verdict is still out for me.

Here is a summary of what I consider the pros and cons of quilts vs full bags vs top bags vs half zips etc...

Bags:

A fully zipped bag will be the most versatile. A semi-rectangular bag can be fully unzipped and used flat like a quilt, or just zip up the foot and use it like a boxed-foot quilt (eg Nunatak Arc), or zip it all the way to stop drafts and make use of the hood. These also weigh the most of all the options available. Comfort level is generally high since you can use it just about any way your heart desires.

A mummy bag with full zip is the next most vesatile. It can be unzipped and used like an Arc quilt, or partiall/fully zipped and also has a hood. Very slightly lighter than the semi-rectangular, but generalll a bit warmer for the same amount of down due to the smaller foot box and less space to heat. Either of these types of bags can have attachement straps added if you want that kind of a sleep system option. Comfort is also very high as it can be used as a quilt for resltess or claustrophobic sleepers.

Add a differential cut to you mummy to increase the down efficiency even more.

Plain quilts and closed box foot quilts are next in terms of versatility. If the plain quilt has 'wings' or other attachment systems, or a way to cinch down the foot into a 'box', then warmth can be pretty good. These weigh less than the bag options, but you will need separate insulation for your head. Having the head insulation worn separately is probably more comfortable for a side or stomach sleep (or tosser), but makes no difference to a back sleeper. A bivy bag may also be needed in very windy/cold conditions.

Same goes for the closed box foot bags, but again there is a slight weight saving over a flat quilt. Otherwise the pros and cons are the same.

Top bags are the least flexible sleep system, but also the lightest. If you are a dedicated back sleeper, the fully zippered top bags are an excellent choice, and if you are a hard-core ULer, then a half zip or no zip may appeal to you as you may find the weight savings worth the reduced flexibility. Top bags would be very difficult for a hammocker to use.

What I see it boiling down to is that an increase in flexibility will either weigh more, or be less warm for the same weight as a less flexible system. So our choices will depend on how much flexibility we are willing to sacrifice to keep our pack weight down without freezing.

To me, it's not a big deal. I don't mind carrying an extra ounce or two to have a zipper and hood, but I don't need down underneath me and I don't need room to spare. Then again I don't fidget and I sleep on my back, so a top bag is perfect. A fully semi-rectangular bag is also 'perfect' for sleeping in, but since I don't need that much flexibility, I choose not to carry the extra weight. It wouldn't cripple me if that was all I had available, as the total weight difference is really negligible in the overall scheme of things.

So to answer the original question, I wouldn't say that "Quilts AREN’T as Comfortable as a Sleeping Bag", rather I would say that quilts are just a little less flexible than a fully zippered sleeping bag, but also a little lighter provided you don't need to carry an extra bivy bag or down hood to make it work.

What are others opinions? This is obviously not addressing how much fill/layering etc...as that is really a different issue that depends on the 'style' question.

Excellent summary Allison. I'm a little confused on one small point though and maybe a don't fully understand what a top bag is. But, how can a top bag be the lighter than a quilt? In general terms isn't a top bag basically a quilt with some extra material to strap it to a sleeping pad? If so the extra material would make it slightly heavier, even if only by an insignificant amount. Have I not grasped the top bag concept? Or maybe you are assuming other items in the quilt system such as a bivy?

I use the term "top bag" to refer to something like a WM POD. The total internal circumference of a WM POD is 62 inches at the shoulder, but only ~40 inches of that has down in it, compared to, say a 59 inch "quilt" that has a full 59 inches of down in it. Becuase of the difference in width of down fill, there is also less baffling material, less stitching, and less fabric (the extra fabric to attach it to a pad only needs to be minimal-on our PODs we've removed most of this extra material and just use velcro strips to attach it to our pads).

Also note that when I said "lighter than a quilt", I explained that a top bag is lighter than a quilt for the same warmth, or warmer than a quilt for the same weight depending on how you like to look at it.

Alison, I like the way you break down the items in sensible manner. But like before in my previous post (that nobody seems to want to touch) is that some quilts are FAR more versatile than we give them credit for. Hammocking is overlooked as something "silly" or not given true credit for being a viable shelter in real world situations. But they are serious shelters, so an underquilt that will also double/triple/quadruple itself is far more versatile than a full zip box bag. What can that do? Its either zipped up, or it isnt. When you can use your quilt as a blanket, a box end (foot closure) top bag, a top quilt for a hammock (btw... most or all of the zippered bags are WAY too wide for use in a hammock - overkill to say the least) and/or an underquilt plus wear around camp as a serape... well that spells versatility, at least to me. So fwiw, with all due respect let me introduce this idea (again) mike

p.s. there is nothing wrong with using/enjoying both styles of insulation either! I know of some that will sleep in a mummy bag covered with a top quilt. Ive done it below 15°

Edited by mikeinfhaz on 07/09/2008 17:57:23 MDT.

As I've never hammocked before, I'm not sure I understand the details you are talking about. How does an underquilt double/triple/quadruple itself? I also don't understand why you couldn't just use the extra width of a 'bag' to help insulated underneath, as part of your 'underquilt"? And if it's really cold, just zip it up and you've got an underquilt firmly attached to your top quilt. What am I missing?

Now the serape thing is kinda cool, but again there is no reason (this is in theory) that you couldn't also make a serape out of a semi-rectangular bag. Stick a hole for your head into one of these bags and it can be used in any situation I can imagine...it would just weigh more than a quilt. Maybe I need to spend a (nauseous) night in a hammock to understand the problems associated with them?

its designed as an underquilt, with benefits. It can and will function in 4 separate and unique ways. (well, sorta unique being that the Mitylite also opens completely)
you mean make a head hole yourself? I guess you could, but its hard to make the flap close over itself as tight as you might need. The no sniveller has this feature built in... for those (like me) that dont want to resurrect trig II in order for it to work! I think you could also use a very wide bag as a total cocoon, like the PeaPod and the Large Jack's quilts, but that means you have to sleep straighter (more of a banana position too) and it would be a pretty tight fit. It would work in a pinch... the article from BPL about the No Sniveller sums it up: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/jacks_r_better_no_sniveller_quilt_spotlite_review.html
to stop the nauseating swing motion I added latex tensioners to my tarp which allows for less swing, think of it as "brakes" for a hammock. The Hennessy line also has guy-outs directly attached for controlling the swing. Just curious, are there trees where you live? I dont remember seeing many trees there the possums havent already gotten to. (both islands)
fwiw, i purchased the Hudson quilt long before I converted to a hammock. it works great on the ground too. i never had a problem with "drafts" since at 48" wide it covers my narrow booty! :)

Edited by mikeinfhaz on 07/09/2008 19:51:04 MDT.

I guess I would need to actually see what you are talking about. Words just aren't getting it across to me. Why wouldn't a full zip rectangular bag work as both a top bag and underquilt combined???

It's true that no one else is making commercially available serape openings in their quilts OR rectangular bags, but it wouldn't be very hard to do. That is a feature unique to no snivellers, not quilts in general. Other than that as far as I can tell, it's really just a quilt with optional omnitape attachments etc...

Anyway, there are some places around here with a lot of trees, but they tend to only be at lower elevations and more on the west coast. I'm more of an alpine kind of person if I have an option. Besides, hammocks (and many other things) make me motion sick even just getting into and out of them. Even sleeping with someone else in my bed can make me sick if they move around too much. But if I had access to a hammock, I would take some anti-nausea meds and have a try with it as it's really hard to understand the special needs of hammockers if you haven't been there done that. Of course, as a back sleeper it would have to be a Hennessy style A-Sym type hammock.

Last night just for a change I slept under our "double" quilt. 66 inches wide. I slept (as I always do) with the fan on, even though it's the middle of winter as I'm a warm sleeper. Well I wasn't warm last night!! I just could stop the drafts from coming under the edges of the quilt. Every time I moved it seemed to displace part of my carefully tucked edge, letting in just enough cold air to be a nuisance. I don't know why I have problems like this, but it's truly enough to make me happy to carry a bag with a zipper.

OK, I just looked up what an "underquilt" is, so have a better grasp of what you are talking about. So do you carry two quilts instead of a quilt plus a mat? That would be pretty limiting on multi-day hikes around here, as one night you might be amongst trees, the next night on the tops. But it obviously works where you like to camp.

Even if I found a hammock to be the best thing since sliced bread (even if I have to take anti-nausea meds), I mostly hike with my partner, and we like to share our shelter, both for warmth and for weight savings. So I'll never be a candidate for hammock conversion.

right-o
i only mentioned hammocks because I wanted to think inside a bigger box. One could start an entirely new argument for those who stand whilst they sleep... lol.

I guess the burrito wrap style bag would have to be fairly large at pro'lly 72" to wrap around a hammock and user without compressing the down. So, yes Alison I do have to carry 2 quilts, one is >13oz and the other is 1/2 length @ >9oz combined with a leg length ccf pad @ 2oz.
Ok, Im going off topic so all I can say is that I agree with the mummy crowd on one important point.. having a bag for one intended purpose and having multiple bags for different applications seems to be the norm, and quite reasonably so. If you find a Mitylite is the best thing ever, you are most likely right. Ol' honest Abe Lincoln said something like "two men can differ opinions and both be right". (but I can still wear my quilt as a Superhero cape to the joy and laughter of my kids*) :)

*thanks, Jeff

Edited by mikeinfhaz on 07/09/2008 21:33:47 MDT.

For me at least, it is much easier to ventilate a quilt than a sleeping bag. Perhaps I am not as practiced, or perhaps its just that if I wake up too hot I want to cool off immediately; but I find it takes longer than I like to unfasten the Velcro over the zipper, loosen the hood cordlocks, locate the zipper pull, and pull the zipper down (sometimes getting stuck, depending on the bag). With the quilt, I just kick or throw it off & begin cooling off immediately. With a sleeping bag, I sometimes find I am sweating before I can get it open. Of course, that provides a cooling process of its own, but one that can lead to a chill before morning from damp clothes or bag.

Allison Miller: “Top bags are the least flexible sleep system, but also the lightest.” Really? Why then does the Western Mountaineering SummerLite weigh 1 and 1/2 ounces less than the Rab top bag?
Manufacturer Model Temp Rating (°F) Single Layer Loft (in) Weight of Down (oz) Fill Power Total Weight (oz) Cost
Western Mountaineering SummerLite 32 2 10 850+ 19 $300
Marmot Hydrogen 30 ?* 10 850 21 $309
Montbell Super Stretch Down Hugger #3 30 ?* 10 800 23 $270
Feathered Friends Merlin 30 2 11.5 800+ 23 $314
Rab Top Bag AR 30 1.75 7 850+ 20.5 $200

Because it is poorly designed with regards to weight. The WM POD 30 weighed 16 oz when they made it, and cost about $280, 3 ounces less than the summerlite and 4.5 oz less the the Rab.

Why then is Nunatak’s 20* bag 1 oz lighter than its 20* top bag?
The NUNATAK Catabatic SL is a regular mummy style sleeping bag, with the underside insulation replaced by a single ultralight layer of fabric. 20*, total weight, quantum, small = 20 oz, medium = 22 oz, large = 24 oz.
The Alpinist is NUNATAK’S version of the ordinary mummy sleeping bag. 20*, total weight, quantum, small = 19 oz, medium = 21 oz, large = 23 oz.

I think the definitions are not straight. The catabatic is a top bag and arc series and golite ultra are quilts. I realize the first RAB top bag has mesh on the bottom and may have been meant as an overbag.

Mummy bag- fully enclosed, with or without hood, down on bottom.

Top bag- fully enclosed, with or without hood, only fabric (no down) on bottom.

Quilt bag- open on bottom, with or without straps, usually without hood.

Edited by jshann on 07/10/2008 12:20:29 MDT.

Comparing apples to apples with Nunatak-
Catabac SL- 20* Topbag with hood, 22 oz, 12 oz down, no drafts, 2.5" baffles/loft
Alpinist Mummy Bag- 20*, hood 21 oz, 11.5 oz down (top and bottom), no drafts, 2.5" baffles/loft
Acr Alpinist- 20* quilt, no hood, 20 oz, 11 oz down, possible drafts, 2.5" baffles/loft

Catabac- 32* topbag, no hood, 14 oz, 8 oz down, no drafts, 2" baffles/loft
Sub Alpinist- 35* mummy, hood 14 oz, 5.5 oz down, no drafts,.75" baffles
Acr ghost- 32* quilt, no hood, 14 oz, 8 oz down, drafts, 2" baffles/loft- 46" shoulder girth! thats tiny for a quilt
Acr Specialist- 32* quilt, no hood, 16oz, 8oz down, drafts, 1.75" baffles/loft, 55" shoulder girth

Robert, you will want to look deeper into things than 2 sets of numbers. as we all know, there are near infinite variables when it comes to the warmth of a bag, and defining temperature ratings. You may want to consider the amount of down in each bag/quilt and where is is distributed. Eg. the catabac sl has 12 oz of down in on top and in the hood, with 2" baffles. the alpinist mummy bag has 11.5 oz of down distributed all the way around the sleeper. the baffles are the same height, but any down under the sleeper will reduce the loft above the sleeper, where it matters. The catabac SL would be slightly warmer despite them having the same 20* rating
It doesn't seem to me the 20* Arc Alpinist can be as warm as the 20* Catabac SL due to there being 1 oz less down that is distributed over a larger area (hood of SL included), and that is lacks a hood and will have some draft issues. That being said, it is 2 oz lighter.

The closest comparison in here is between the Catabac and the Arc Ghost. Both are rated to 32*, have 8 oz of down, weigh 14 oz, and have 2" baffles. To keep the same specs as the Catabac, the quilt has to have circumferences of 34" at the foot, 43" at the waist, and 46" at the shoulder. Having made 6 quilts, these measurements are too small for a normal sized person (thus the Arc Specialist with 55" shoulder width). My smallest having 40-44-48 measurements was way too small for me (6'1-2, 180 lbs). My main point here is that ratings, even from the same reputable company will have some margin of error, and you have to look deeper into design and features if you want to pinpoint total warmth. Do you think a mummy bag with 5.5oz of down and .75" baffles is only 3* cooler than a quilt or topbag with 8 oz of down and 2" baffles?

Edited by willspower3 on 07/10/2008 14:00:11 MDT.

They are all different designs. The Catabac SL is 62" x 59" x 34", much like my POD. It would fit me fine. The Alpinist is 61" x 50" x 38"..too narrow in the hips for this old gal. The Arc Alpinist in a size medium is shorter than either of the above, and only fits to 5'10" instead of 6', and was WAY too narrow for my hips at 45".

So it's not really apples to apples at all, and seems to be another factor to add in to the "decision matrix" of choosing a sleep system.

I don't disagree with the previous few posts, I just have a slight (very slight) objection to using phrases like such and such a system is "the lightest." That's like saying such and such a starlet is "the prettiest." The number of variables exceeds Newton's gravitaional constant divided by Einstein's cosmological constant, added to Avogadro’s number and multiplied by the number of suns in the local galactic cluster.

Perhaps you would prefer we use the term "best" instead ;) Then we could add in other parameters such as colour, fabric feel, country of manufacture, politics and religion of the manufacturer, cost etc...and make this the most complicated gear decision ever.

Or would you prefer "lightest design for the same materials used, volume and dimensions being insulated, comfort and flexibility aside"?? At least then we could rule out top bags made out of cuban fibre or ultrasheer silk and insulated with 1200 fill power hand-collected hungarian eiderdown! As long as we can nail down definitions as a reference point we can continue to discuss lightest gear.

Without using the terms "light, lighter, lightest" we are not left with much to discuss at BPL...

Dear RT,

I did your calculation:
The number of variables exceeds Newton's gravitaional constant divided by Einstein's cosmological constant, added to Avogadro’s number and multiplied by the number of suns in the local galactic cluster and my screen became extremely bright and now there is a loud ringing in my ears.

Please supply the antidote forumla asap!

"and multiplied by the number of suns in the local galactic cluster "

I think he means that to him "light" and "lighter" are more appropriately defined as the light that shines out of a galactic cluster???? Since "lightest" doesn't fit in with this definition, it is not an appropriate term to use. After all, who could really judge what is the "lightest" galactic cluster in the universe?

Edited by retropump on 07/10/2008 19:04:13 MDT.

You forgot to divide by the mass of an electron .....

As I previously posted in this thread, I like quilts for mild weather and mummy bags for cold winter conditions. Also, I toss and turn and always sleep on my side.

This has me thinking about the "hybrid" system such as Big Agnes' or WesternMountianeering's Pod types. I'm particularly considering cold winter weather the idea of combining that type system with a separate down hood which is available from a couple of cottage industry suppliers.

Us side sleepers have a real problem with a Pod system that has an attached hood as our ear can't breathe through the face hole. :-)

However, with a separate hood, that problem is solved. The hoodless Pod would have to have something similar to a down collar around the neck to cut out drafts (caused by my turning) on these cold winter nights. The fact that the down on top is attached to the pad pocket, seals out drafts from the sides.

If the neck area can be protected, this sounds to me like it could be the optimum system for really cold conditions: down on top, insulating pads underneath, ability to turn & side sleep. I'd have to figure out where to put a zipper on this thing because I hate zipperless bags.

Hmmm. You all have me thinking...

Edited by mad777 on 07/10/2008 20:08:01 MDT.

> Us side sleepers have a real problem with a Pod system that has an attached hood as our ear can't breathe through the face hole. :-)
Another myth.
I sleep with the quilt pulled over my head - at home, and in the tent. Breathing is no problem.

Roger,

Do you find that breathing under a down quilt, wets and somewhat colapses the down near your head?

> Do you find that breathing under a down quilt, wets and somewhat colapses the down near your head?
I've been doing it for some years now, in all four seasons including winter (in the snow), and so far I have not seen this happen. Part of the reason may be that most of the air trickles out sideways rather than going *through* two layers of Pertex. It would make sense for this to happen.

One thing to always remember in cold conditions is to avoid getting too hot and sweaty. OK, sleeping just warm enough is tricky, but it does cut down perspiration.

Snow conditions - down to -10 C at least. Frost conditions down to -7 C (and I have a recorded temperature profile to back that claim!). Frost on the inside of the tent - you bet!

In fact, using a shelter which can keep the surface of your sleeping bag above 0C is a very smart move, although there are many times when this is not possible. The key is often a double-skin tent with the inner tent closed up fairly well. Well, sometimes it works. The times when I have had lots of wet condensation on the inside of the tent were obviously above freezing anyhow.

Cheers

I've had exactly the same experience as Roger over several decades of winter camping in temperatures down to -25C. In sub zero temperatures I sleep with my face inside my down sleeping bag. I've never had problems with my breath dampening the down and I've sometime slept like this every night for three weeks at a time. Like Roger when I've had problems with dampness (and they've only ever been minor) it's been in very damp above freezing temperatures when I don't have my face in the bag.

I tend to agree and sleep with my face inside the bags to
the point I am warm enough to breath out the opening. Moist
air holds more heat than dry air.

I have noticed more moisture in the top 1.5 ft. of my bag
in more common conditions around freezing when sleeping
in the open. Fortunately, when sleeping under the stars
it means it will be sunny in the morning and I can dry
the bag out before stuffing.

Weeks of winter weather has dampened my sleeping bag
unless I use a VBL, or a hot water bottle, or have
good weather to air dry. Even synthetic bags take on
a clammy feeling when stuffed in the morning.

A bivysack will often move the condensation
to the inside of the bivy rather than inside the insulation
of the sleeping bag. This is even faster to dry.
In very cold conditions I like a down inner, synthetic outer, with either a tent or bivy over that.

George: Actually, I meant to say that the number of variables exceeds the number of electron neutrinos in the observable universe, multiplied by the number of muon neutrinos and added to the number of tau neutrinos, all divided by the Planck length (1.6 × 10 to the minus 35 meters), always ignoring units, of course, since we are looking for a unit-less number.

so, whats the square root of infinity?

> so, whats the square root of infinity?
Infinity

"so, whats the square root of infinity?"

Imagination

I've sewn a 3x3" square of material (I chose an old wool shirt for it's moisture, odor and anti-bacterial properties) and put a synthetic insulation layer inside. I place this over my nose/mouth at night and pull my balaclava up over it/my face on really cold winter nights. This gives most of the benefit of breathing in your bag without filling it with moisture. I know Ryan uses a synthetic hood from his cocoon series **backwards** to breath through for the same purpose. It really makes a difference in warmth.

I generally use down quilts (with vapor barrier in the winter) in all four seasons. If they're wide enough and attached to your pad properly I find them the lightest and most versatile system for the warmth. (Mike Martin taught me to cut slits in my pad and feed the straps through the pad if you really need draft control). I definately add the weight of a down balaclava in the winter but in other seasons the hat I use around camp keeps me warm enough.

Side sleeping is a bit harder with a quilt, but if it's wide enough and attached properly I've had no issues. In all but winter they can be used without a bivy and in winter I carry the bivy for moisture management anyhow.

The same 20oz sleeping bag can take me from a 75F night (draped over my legs and belly) to 0F (with insulated clothing that I'd bring anyhow for cooking outside, a down balaclava--4oz bringing my sleep specific items up to 24oz) and everywhere in between.

There's a narrower difference between a quilt and bag in the winter--the easier draft control and hood are there for you and you're very likely to need them. You can control your insulation/temperature with your extra clothing and, if you have continous baffles, by where you shake the down.