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Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge
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Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
nano bivies on 12/04/2005 18:09:40 MST Print View

OK, but I am changing the bivy weight to 3.6oz. have you seen the new vapor bivies? Ryan says his is 3.6oz

Edited by ryanf on 12/04/2005 18:12:11 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Last minute gearlist stuff on 12/04/2005 18:35:37 MST Print View

Bob---I almost always carry my sunscreen/lip balm in my pockets.
RF--I agree w/ Bob about the Arc X/ Ghost, plus Arc X is in Quantum, better fabric and DWR than the ,85 Fabric which is used in the Ghost @ that weight. And you can't just order up a Nunatak bag and get it in a few days.

Nano Bivy weight--so noted. Ryan--it's 4.6 oz.--heavier than we thought. Ouch! That Price!

Correction --the one for sale is 4.6---his stripped down one is 3.6. hmmmph.

"An even greater comfort is coming back alive."

Edited by kdesign on 12/04/2005 18:50:11 MST.

Bob Gabbart
(bobg) - F
bivy weight - added warmth on 12/05/2005 07:37:45 MST Print View

I think we should keep the bivy weight at 4.6 oz. The experiment should be able to be repeated by other people and I don't think most will cut up their $300 bivy.


kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
non-stock equipment on list on 12/05/2005 10:35:36 MST Print View

It's an understandable concern, But, by that reasoning wouldn't a modded Xtreme and even the prototype clothing ( whose specs are bound to change by the time things go to production) be excluded?

My only question re. RJ's bivy is did he remove so much material that a smaller, more restricted bivy would interfere w/ using added insulation layers inside the bag?

Many of us, do indeed seem to, hack up or modify even some of our expensive gear.
Furthermore, this whole experiment, I think, couldn't possibly be representational of what everybody could do. There are some skills levels involved that even many Winter campers don't have or are weak at. This should be said up front.

Finally, if RJ has to use the heavier stock Bivy, Ryan Faulkner could no longer have his "Sub 5" base weight. ;-)>

Edited by kdesign on 12/05/2005 13:31:15 MST.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: non-stock equipment on list on 12/05/2005 13:44:05 MST Print View

KD, I will never go over 5 pounds :-)

I qoute RJs email on the new nano bivies.

"I also describe my mods to get the bivy to 3.6 oz without sacrificing interior volume."

all Ryan did on his is remove the netting and zipper, he mentions modifying the size as a posibility on the gear shop page, but this is not what he did to his because he did not give up interior volume.

P.S. I dont think everyone could go SUL in the winter anyway, so I dont think including modified gear is a problem. I once I get some of the gear will test out this winter SUL idea, but since I am broke this may not be till next year :-)

Edited by ryanf on 12/05/2005 13:51:04 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
non-stock stickiness/ Bivy sticker shock on 12/05/2005 14:00:44 MST Print View

You did notice, I defended your right to incorporate the modded bivy, RF. Be properly grateful.:-)>

Yeah, I re-read the boilerplate--no interior volume lost. It's on both gearlists at the lesser weight.

I think that if I ever got the Nano Bivy ( going on an oz. per oz. basis on a par w/ the cost of platinum ----kidding) i would dedicate it for Winter use. In my country I would have to use it w/ a ground cloth for puncture control and that would defeat some of the weight savings of this wonder. I use my silnylon bottomed bivy w/o the groundcloth and no worries.

Edited by kdesign on 12/05/2005 14:02:24 MST.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: non-stock equipment on list on 12/05/2005 14:11:22 MST Print View

sorry, thanks Kevin.
I agree that modified and prototype gear should not be excluded

Bob Gabbart
(bobg) - F
bivy changes on 12/05/2005 15:05:08 MST Print View

I'm ok with that ... just a reminder that we have 2 days left to decision... My vote is for the sub-6 list.


Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: bivy changes on 12/05/2005 15:12:16 MST Print View

Im not saying your vote is a bad one, kevins list is great, but may I ask why?

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Last minute gearlist stuff on 12/05/2005 22:07:04 MST Print View

I'm extremely impressed with the sub 6 pound list. Although I believe the sub 5 is very doable. Also with the sub 6 just by adding the weight of food, this can be a list any one could possibly obtain and use for any length of stay.

My biggest and really only item I do not like is the 2.8oz Petzl Tikka Plus.
Why not just go with the ARC AAA Premium, (see review here).

With just 1 AAA battery this baby will still produce almost half of the light from the Petzl on high and will last for 5 hours. That and a weight of just 0.8oz. You can’t beat that amount of output for that weight, and you really DON’T need the power of the Petzl.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Lighting in a light gearlist for Winter on 12/05/2005 22:41:07 MST Print View

Aaron, thanks. I really like the Arc AAA, I really do. In fact I own one--- on my keychain, in fact). It's the best single 5mm LED flashlight in the land. But for Winter backcountry travel, in particular, I like a headlamp for it's hands-free operation plus the Tikka Plus is easy to use wearing gloves or mitts. The Tikka offers better throw than the Arc (which could be useful should there be a need for some unexpected nightime navigation) and offers a long operation life well suited for this particular enterprise. RJ will have a lot of time on his hands at night and may want to take notes or read ( not that we alotted materials for either, hee hee).
I am more comfortable, in short, with having a more powerful light than the Arc on hand for this kind of trip. I realize that some folk have made ways to attach the AAA to their headbands or hats. I think it's a good 3 season option so long as a lot of night time traveltime is not involved. Just my opinion.
I'm not personally attached to the Petzl, it could just of easily have been a Princeton Tech Aurora or EOS--- the last being the only regulated light like the Arc AAA.

I like that website, too.

Edited by kdesign on 12/05/2005 22:48:00 MST.

Joy Menze
(catamountain) - M
Found object handwarmer + on 12/06/2005 00:13:49 MST Print View

An old cowboy trick to warm hands and toes is to place campfire heated stones in the sleeping bag. They retain heat for a long time. If no rocks in snowy climate, all metal gear can be heated up. When I was a little kid, my mommy would drape the PJs over the radiator to cut the chill. Even hospitals have warming ovens for blantets. So any unworn clothing can be pre-heated.

Seattle fabric has a new fabric called 1.3 oz. Heat and Solar Reflective Ripstop. According to Extreme Fabrics, who might have fabricated this stuff, the material has thermal packaging applications. It would be nice to see if this stuff could help insulate your water.

Edited by catamountain on 12/06/2005 00:35:16 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Final (?) links to Winter Challenge gearlist on 12/06/2005 11:50:21 MST Print View

Tomorrow, the gauntlet to Ryan Jordan's challenge will be thrown down.

There's still time for input and people should pick a list ( or indicate public disapproval and the banishment of all who had anything to do with these infamous gearlists).



The ultimate stove available for this enterprise remains up in the air at this moment in time. Stove modifications are still being worked on and may not be ready.

Richard Matthews
(food) - F

Locale: Colorado Rockies
follow instructions? on 12/06/2005 13:35:40 MST Print View


The challenge was not as great as putting a man on the moon, but for subscribers it was a much more useful challenge.

Everyone is a winner. The people that innovated probably elevated their personal technique in the process. The people that followed the thread might be tempted to move beyond their comfort zone. Don't forget Dr. J because he was selling tickets to the brain storming.

Besides the only vote that counts is from the one risking digits and other body parts.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
We all win --or at least were amused on 12/06/2005 13:51:30 MST Print View

Absolutely, everyone was a winner.

It's been a great brainstorm from all. Very fun "working" with John Shannon, Ryan Faulkner(the boy wonder), Bob Gabbert, Michael Martin, PJ, Bill (house mad scientist) and more. Even the disagreements brought much up to "Light". It was very much a collective effort no matter which list or a hybrid is chosen.

There definitely should be caution flags waved. This whole thing is ultimately a working hypothesis.
If you've never winter camped, don't try this at home, kids.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Back to stoves on 12/07/2005 02:08:17 MST Print View

Hi Guys

I have been testing an MSR WindPro with an inverted canister. I have several custom support mechs for the canister, which will be revealed 'in due course'. This combo works a dream!
Stove: 192 g
100 g canister: ~190 g
Support: 20 g
Total: 400 g or 14.1 oz, INCLUDING fuel!

Add to this a windshield, such as you might choose, and maybe a scrap of foam to support the canister and stove. But you could use a pit in the snow instead of a windshield, and a bit of clothing or anything (or even nothing) in place of the foam.

Is 100 g of gas enough? On my experience in the snow, I say it is. Ryan carries water for the first day, melts water for the second day, cooks both nights for one person, and melts some water for the third day. OK, if he drinks a lot (I don't), he may run a little short on the third day on the way out. Maybe, but this is SUL for two nights ONLY, remember? And I have been using 40 g per night cooking for TWO people.

Just thought I would stir the pot with this idea, at this late stage.

Roger Caffin
Sydney, Australia, where it hit >40 C (>104 F) today, and at 8 pm it is still >30 C (>86 F).

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
re. Back to stoves on 12/07/2005 10:31:47 MST Print View

Great news, Roger. I hope "due course" will be timely enough for Ryan's trip. Very curious about your support system. Even if RJ doesn't feel quite comfortable w/ carrying 100 g of fuel for the trip, and goes for 220g he would still be carrying an impressively small 20.1 oz.( 570 g) w/ fuel.

My only hesitation in going w/ the smaller canister and your scenario is it leaves RJ w/ no reserve. If conditions suddenly and unexpectedly deteriated and he was forced to wait things out, that would not be so great. In any other season, I would easily toss out the fuel reserve in favor of less weight.

Edited by kdesign on 12/07/2005 10:48:51 MST.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: re. Back to stoves on 12/07/2005 15:07:30 MST Print View

we may have till tonight to finish up our lists, will my 5.7oz windpro work?

I tested it at 24 degrees

it melted 2L in about 10 min
and boiled in 17.
used 2.0 - 2.1oz of fuel

I melted/boiled all 2L at once in a 2L pot so you may have to add a few extra min.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
stove choices on 12/07/2005 16:38:18 MST Print View

RF--Perhaps we should have a little poll on the stove choices?

Nothing is stopping you from putting your modded stove on your gearlist, of course. Or we could treat the stove issue independantly from the rest of the list. Stoves have certainly been one of the most problematic areas of the whole gearlist business-- and brought out the best creativity.

But as for the choices, if anyone is interested, we have--
1) stock Coleman Xtreme (11.0 oz.) or
2) modded Xtreme ( 8oz. or less)-- the most fuel efficient options. 2) may not be available in time.
3) stock MSR Wind Pro ( 6.8 oz.) or
4) RF's modified Wind Pro (5.7 oz.) both w/ upside-down canister operation to better cold weather performance.
5) MSR Simmerlite (8.5 oz.) the only White Gas stove being considered. No one has volunteered to extensively modify this.

With fuel and canister/fuel bottle weights for the Trip added---
1) 20.0 oz. w/ small (6 oz.) Powermax canister
2)17.0 oz. or less
3) 20.1 oz. ( w/ 220 g. canister)*
4) 18.9 oz. *
5) 21 to 24 oz. min. ( 9-12 oz. fuel in 12 oz. bottle)

* 3) and 4) could go down to as little as
13 oz. w/ use of 100 g. canister ( questions about
sufficiency for trip-- no fuel reserve).

While I admire your Wind Pro adaptation, Ryan, I've been wondering how to pack that stove/pot stand in a spinnaker pack full of very light shell clothing without tearing things to shreds. Think you could make the stand more fabric friendly?

Edited by kdesign on 12/07/2005 22:16:17 MST.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: stove choices on 12/07/2005 16:42:50 MST Print View

I think you could wrap your windscreen around the stand ( because it is round) and keep it in the pot and you wont have to add a hevy nylon bag

Edited by ryanf on 12/07/2005 17:17:27 MST.