Why are we carrying the 2.8 oz nalgene? Why not several smaller and much lighter gatogade or soda bottles?

Let's drill holes in the snow shovel to cut weight.

Insulation is created by creating dead air space, so we could take the pads and take out 3/8" holes out of each pad, which would reduce the weight of each by at least half an ounce. The holes should be placed in differing locations so they do not overlap, and thus increase the dead air space.

The problems with large holes in pads is that as the holes get bigger, the isulating ability of the 'dead' air is reduced as the air no longer becomes 'dead' it's got enough space to move around every time you make the slightest shift in how you are laying (even by breathing). the CCF pads already have tiny 'voids' througout the material due to their molecular construction. drilling holes in the pads would be a BAD idea.

Chatting with members of the mtneering community, including some Alaskan hands, I'm adapting some of their input ( in a UL way) to adding one more layer to the clothing system that is expressed in my adaptation of BobG's and John Shannon's list and RF's list.

sub6


The goal is to provide a thermal "sandwich" that would be adaptable to various levels of activity and to be better suited (pun intended) for digging out snow caves.

My solution includes Reed Pants below the belt and a Golite Ether windshirt ( sized up for RJ to wear over his other layers. I elected to go non- waterproof on top for purposes of weight and the low humidy conditions (aka "dry" snow + very cold temperatures).

The pants go as worn. The Windshirt as base weight.

Edited by kdesign on 12/01/2005 10:50:32 MST.

Kevin,

Your list is really shaping up.

Bob

I say go for the reed pants, but why dont we just size up th VB jacket so you could layer the cocoon under it at camp to protect from snow, but when he goes to bed put ut under the Cocoon because the VB is more efective next to skin. and there is no extra weight packet.

check out the Xtreme modifacation thread for my stripped wind pro stove. It is a MSR canister, but weighs 4.7oz.
is it an option?

Ryan F--why not link us to your modified Wind Pro.
I was under the impression that you needed to develop a means to hold a pot and a means to invert the cylinder. So, I haven't considered it an option for this exercise.

About the prototype RBH jacket---I don't know anything about it's cut but I suspect it would be fairly tight (that VB thang) and sizing up may not be enough for your layering scenario. It also doesn't do anything to protect and utilize the potental warmth of the MW shirt we both have on the lists--
particularly when in travel mode.

There are a number of lists circulating on this thread, now. Decision needs to be finalized by next Wed., Dec. 7 as per Ryan Jordan's choice. 6 days.

What sort of process to decide. Do people want to vote on each list? Do we let a relative handfold of us to decide thru group apathy? Do we post all of the lists and let RJ pick and choose from them all a la
Chinese menu?

Would Dr. Jordan give some sort of final critique in the next couple of days, allow us to modify our lists, and then decide as per the above?

In short, what do we do next?

And thanks, Bob

Edited by kdesign on 12/01/2005 14:04:23 MST.

what is the stand on the stripped Xtreme stove? what is the weight?

I believe that Michael Martin and Carl Peterson both gave only total weights of their stripped down Xtremes( including stands). I did not remember seeing stand weights alone. Carl used a Pocket Rocket stand ( I seem to recall).

If anyone is trying to make a stand from Ti rod stock, that would probably be the lightest option.

For the extra layer I agree, I added the Reed pants, but since I am going sub 5, I am thinking of an alterenative to adding 3 oz to the packed weight.

this is what I came up wwith.
well, while skiing, I wear a under aurmor cold gear shirt,(comparable warmth to MW top) fleece vest and a not so breathable shell in temps well above 32 degrees, and down to.
I have no experience with VB or snowshoeing (plan to start this up in WV this winter) but If we gave RJ a vest with a full zipper to wear he would be able to unzip it to ventalate. Again I havent snowshoed, but skiing is an active sport,(may be compareable to the action in snow shoeing) and with this system I dont over heat, and if I do, unzipp my jacket halfway, this cools me off and I zipp it back up.

mabey a MB thermawrap vest a 5.2oz will work. any other options.
this Is a usable system, and may add more warmth to the sleep system compared to the Golite wind shell.

also, dose the VB jacket have a full zipp? if so this ventillation will work fine.

Edited by ryanf on 12/01/2005 16:23:22 MST.

I think that the idea of a middle layer w/ a zip is a good one, to be used under a shell ( and over the VB). I think a middle layer should offer some arm and not just torso warmth, if it is to be one garment. The shell is, again, important for snow cave excavation as well as for working with the middle layer to be warmer system ( by blocking wind and trapping a static air layer).

I don't know if the RBH prototype jacket is full zip or not.

mabey an extra thin fleece jacket to be worn?

I was thinking the vest be worn under the VB, but over makes more sense.

also my personal experience with winter camping.

I used a 45 degree bag and equinox bivi in 10 degree snow storm under a tarp with an under armor shirt, fleece vest, fleece jacket , and golite wisp. (and thin skipants and cotten pants, on a torso ridgerest, and 3/8" foam under legs) so just adding the vest, in my opinion, will keep RJ warm in his 32 degree bag, at zero degrees, considering, his jacket, vest, bag, pad system, shelter, pant system, head system and VB jacket is warmer than mine was.

Edited by ryanf on 12/01/2005 16:48:15 MST.

Remember, Ryan F.---it will not be zero degrees inside the snowcave. In fact it will be quite a bit warmer. It would be warmer, still, if we gave RJ more than 1oz. worth of candle.

I'm not worried about the warmth of his sleeping system.

You wear cotten pants? In Winter? You got some kind of a death wish? ;-)>

actually 60% cotten and 40% polyester.
I should get a pair of under aurmor tights, I know th "dangers" of cotten but for now I love these because they are very warm and comforatable, and I just make sure they dont get wet.
they are actually designed for pajamas but oh well

so will the vest work as I hoped?

I am still under 5 pounds:-)

Edited by ryanf on 12/01/2005 17:25:10 MST.

Two, no, three things, Ryan--
1. The vest I don't see as something always or even mostly worn--I would put it in the Base Weight ( as I did the Wisp Windshirt). I know, you are clinging to sub 5 like a snow leech ;-)>

2. I don't think the vest gives as much bang for the weight as the windshirt. Snowcave digging pro, blocking wind to make the MW layer more useful as thermal insulation, etc.

3. The vest w/ a shell and the MW shirt would be a killer combo if you decided to ditch sub5. A highly versatile and lightweight combo in any season--and w/ the VB jacket, da bomb for low temp. UL Winter travel.

have you noticed that only 3.2 oz. seperates our 2 lists when added as pre-food/ water/fuel skinout weights?

Edited by kdesign on 12/01/2005 17:45:22 MST.

#1 this is what I wear, why would you not? with the full zip, it is easially ventilated.

#2 I find that a vest used alone, dose almost nothing for insulation, but when used in a layering system, it is crucial to keep the central body heat up. and isint the VB jacket, windproof for digging?

#3 Thanks.

I want to make sure you understand that I beleive your system could work great, but I am just saying, mine will work great too, and it is truly SUL.

Edited by ryanf on 12/01/2005 17:54:42 MST.

Different experiences, Ryan. The vest would be in my pack a good deal of the time.

Even w/ the vb jacket--I would want to wear a full sleeved, hooded shell when diggin' me shelter. Yar.

But it's ok not to agree on everything and it's cool to have 2 different approaches to the same problem---this isn't mathematics, it's much, much more subjective.

I think we are close to having other people weigh in. Whadyaya think?

Is it sub5 or sub6 or a mix?

Is the VB not full sleeved?

I would just like to mention that My hat has a goretex shell

yes, two options is good, so let me change gears.

Vote for me! :-)