Unless I missed something, I think the Tikka Plus should be changed to the Zipka Plus, which would give us the same light module at a weight of 2.3 oz instead of 2.8 for the Tikka.

This is to show Bob's latest list modified to incorporate some aspects which were adopted in Ryan F.'s list and is geared to offer a little more of a warmth buffer should things go south. Particularly by favoring synthetic insulation over use of down (except sleeping bag). Bob--please don't hit me.
If we vote on lists I think it would be good to have 2 to choose from. We have a somewhat more "bleeding edge" one compiled by Ryan faulkner and a slightly more (cough) "conservative" one here.

Clothing
-------
10.00 RBH Designs Proto VB Jacket
02.50 Golite CTE Balaclava ( improved face pro)
01.00 Patagonia Airius (Sun hat)
04.00 Montane Featherlight Pants
07.00 Golite MW Tights
05.00 VB Pants
08.50 Patagonia MW zip Cap shirt
04.00 Bozeman Mountain Works FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
01.10 PossumDown Gloves

Footwear
--------
02.00 Patagonia MW Cap Socks
03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

Other Items Worn / Carried
-----------------------
00.50 Sunglasses
01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCode Plus lanyard
01.30 Suunto X6
05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles
01.50 Snow baskets for Stix(weight guesstimate)
00.22 Photon Freedom Micro LED Light (Backup light)
00.20 Sunscreen-- GG Mini Sunscreen
------------------
132.81 ounces
Total worn or carried( not in pack) 8.30 pounds
----------------------------------------

Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
--------------------------
00.00 Snow Cave
16.00 Arc X Quilt
03.60 Vapor NANO Bivy
03.70 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso
05.30 Gossamer Gear 3/4 length ThinLight 3/8" glued to…
01.70 Oware 1/4" Foam Pad (cut to 19.5 W x 30 L)
05.75 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel
14.00 BMW Prototype eVENT Cocoon Belay Jacket
07.50 BMW Cocoon Pants
01.50 Patagonia Capilene LW Socks (extra pair)
03.00 Marmot Ion Windshirt--if available (L for layering purposes) otherwise Golite Ether

Pack
----
03.70 Gossamer Gear G6

Cook/Hydration
--------------
02.45 Trangia 1 L. SaucePan
00.20 Foil lid
00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
00.30 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
08.00 Coleman Xtreme (modified)
02.40 170 g. Cartridge (empty)
00.42 Windscreen/ heat reflector system

Essentials
--------
02.80 Petzl Tikka Plus (w/ lithium batts.)--I think this is a good compromise in lighting and longer lasting than the EOS. Better than lighter Zipka because of it's pivot adjustment.
01.00 Blister & minor wound care supplies
00.75 Wenger Esquire knife
00.50 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares
00.25 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle
01.50 Candles (2) Uco--cut down by 1/3
00.25 Aloksak to organize essentials
--------------------
89.80 ounces
Base Weight 5.61 pounds
-----------------------------
pre-food/fuel/water skin out weight = 13.91 lbs.
-----------------------------------------
Food allowance is up to 32 oz./day
Initial Water allowance is up to Ryan Jordan
Fuel weight is 6 oz.
TP to be packed out if cannot be burned
-------------------------------------------

With either the sub6 or sub5 gearlists, the ultimate skin out weights will be surprisingly not so different.

12/1-- A modded Xtreme Stove is now added w/ the smaller Powermax fuel canister ( this is on BPL stove editor Roger Coffin's advice--we know who to blame) ;-)>
If the Xtreme mod is N/A --the MSR Simmerlite (8.5 oz.) could be substituted ( with a significant weight penalty due to fuel consumption). Stock Xtreme is another option.
12/2 Changed powerstretch balaclava to Golite CTE
which protects a greater area of the face than previous.
12/2 Candles modified to 16-18 hr.burntime w/
cut down "15 hr." Uco candles.
--Sunscreen is now more sensibly transferred to "worn" list.
12/4 Marmot Ion replaces Ether Windshirt (more versatile because of full zip and in Quantum)
Wenger knife added
"Pack out TP if cannot burn" principle added
Sunscreen/lipbalm weight corrected
Nano-bivy weight corrected
12/7 Simmerlite kicked out of consideration as an alternative to the Xtreme. In it's place, the MSR Wind Pro--stock or modified is suggested. Stock w/ empty 220 Canister a net change of an additional .4 oz. would be added to the base weight. Subtract .7 oz. if the RF modification is used.

Edited by kdesign on 12/08/2005 10:04:30 MST.

thanks anon

here it is.

sub 5
vs.
sub 6

Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 20:36:27 MST.

The Zipka can be positioned by moving it up and down on the forehead to adjust beam angle(the natural curve of our sometimes thick skulls takes care of that :-D ). Oh, and whoever said the Tikka is a 1 watt LED is incorrect, as the Tikka(and the Zipka) both use clusters of a less powerful variety.

I noticed, Ryan you changed your headlamp to the Zipka plus. Please to know that it's wire reel mechanism gets clogged by dirt and snow and it lacks a pivot ( which the Tikka has) which is nice to use in aiming light in variable circumstances.

I like it---it's good to have clearly defined parties.
;-)>

I guess I'm a big Zipka fan, but the mechanism would only get clogged with dirt and snow if you threw it on the ground, and even then it would require a lot of effort to jam that sucker. If its snowing you could tuck the reel under your stocking cap if it really worried you, but otherwise its not a problem. After all, we're ultralighters, and we treat our gear with respect, right guys?

Respect? Ha! Ve torture our equipment in ze field lab.:-)>

Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 21:38:58 MST.

Kevin shouldent you have Ryan wwear the VB pants on the trail? the golite tights may not do it for him?

Absolutely, Ryan. This is what happens when one is utilizing another's compilation. I will change this.
sub6

I wanted to bring up something that has been bothering me since we more or less adopted VB clothing as a key part of this shindig.

VB clothing (as well as a VBL liner in a sleeping bag) need to be as close to the skin as possible to be as comfortable and effective as possible. I know this may sound counter-intuitive to people who are't familiar w/ such systems, but it seems to be the consensus of most users.
So. if you don't add additional layers (usually) under VB clothing that means to increase warmth one adds layers over them. So, what would be the most effective layers to add?
On the move, even, there will be times in which,say, the VB pants will not be sufficient. Adding insulated pants or knickers (such as are on the lists) may prove too warm a combo. What about something in between for those in between times? Is it too radical a suggestion to use baselayers on the outside of the VB system? Remember, we are talking low humidity/ "dry" snow conditions. The VB would act as the windblock element. Or is something else, entirely, in order?

I have only used VB clothing with more traditional layers and was not too happy with it ( as I've mentioned before) and since then have relied on softshell/insulated clothing/baselayer combos.
This will be too heavy and bulky for the SUL job which is why I have backed the use of VB clothing as being the only realistic means of achieving warmth w/ low weight/bulk penalties. Even w/ my lack of success in using VB clothing ( from a comfort standpoint---I felt too muggy inside) they definately provided an amazing degree of warmth.

I would like someone with personal VB experience to make suggestions of add'l layers to be used as a part of the system. It's out of my purview.

Edited by kdesign on 11/29/2005 11:34:28 MST.

KD,
are you saying with the VB clothing, Ryan will ve too warm?

Ryan--what I'm saying is that w/ the clothing systems we have provided, he could have a choice of being too cold and perhaps too warm. There may not be enough system versatility.
I'm also saying there are issues peculiar to using VB clothing that I'm not in a position to answer as a expert.

I suspect the ideal system is VB against the skin, followed by insulation layer(s) with a shell on top. The shell doubling as lightweight add'l insulation (by trapping air) and to protect the more delicate insulation layers below from abrasion (whether from pack straps or scrapes with the terrain) and from external moisture ( threats of insulation degradation).
A traditional baselayer would be jettisoned.

If I were to use such a system, again, I would need to be able to have quick and ample venting options.
Not only because I tend to overheat but also that my Winter trips are over much larger temperature spreads than RJ says he will be in.

Edited by kdesign on 11/29/2005 14:46:00 MST.

Why not just have him wear soft-shell pants like in the Winter Checklist and then pack the VB Pants for digging and sleeping. You'll still be under six and RJ will be more comfortable. I'd personally prefer to carry the extra 5oz and not have to be running around in VB pants all day.

Bob

Bob,
remember, it will be under 32 degrees the whole trip, so wearing VB and a base layer will probably not be uncomfortable, and if he gets too hot he can roll up the VB pants to ventilate.

Kevin,
I dont think we have to worry about overheating. Imean he has a quilt and if he heats up, he can easialy loosen the straps to allow more ventilation.
and I found the best way to cool off while sleeping is too take off my hat temporarily and keep close by until I get to cool, and then put it back on

Edited by ryanf on 11/29/2005 14:59:37 MST.

Ryan--you mistake me. I'm not worried about overheat issues when sleeping. It's about the VB clothing system being used at all other times and whether or not we are giving RJ enough.

That's one of the alternatives, Bob.
There are people who literally live in their VB clothing for days at a time---some of my old expedition climbing acquaintances have done so. Wish I could. Maybe I should try it again w/ the newer VB materials RBH seems to be using.

I compared the 5 lb list and 6 lb list and here are the major differences

KEY: 5lb./6lb.

MB climaplus north pole cap and seirus polar scarf/powerstretch balaclava and sun hat

.3oz glasses/.5oz

1 3/8" torso padding and 5/8" leg padding/1 1/8" torso padding and 5/8" lag padding.

classic cocoon jacket(use hat as hood insulation)/Proto. belay jacket

down knickers/cocoon pants

BPL Ti windscreen/2oz windscreen setup

BMW stuffsack/heavier stuffsack

coleman xtreme/ MSR simerlite

hmm.... the 5lb padding is thicker?
with MB hat and polar scarf and cocoon jacket the 5lb. makes a more versatile system and eliminates the need for a sun hat and extra balaclava. and while sleeping is easier to regulate heat.
I think the down pants will provide more warmth.
the GG (.3) sunglasses are goggle like.

more info on noggin system:
I think the hat combo will work for this purpouse. he wont heat up too much while hiking because he can raise earflaps to ventilate but when at camp he has 200wt. fleece and a shell. he can also pull the Seirus Polar Scarf off face while hiking if it gets to hot, and it will still serve as a neck gaiter, and keep it accesible if it cools off.
this system is very versatile and can be adjusted easialy while hiking but will still be warm at camp.

Edited by ryanf on 11/29/2005 16:04:17 MST.

The Ti windscreen was designed for alcohol and esbit stoves ( I just got mine for that reason). You would need to adapt it (if possible) for the Xtreme or Simmerlite. If a less than 2oz. windscreen that works is on the table, I'm cool w/ it.

The headwear comparisons should reflect that the Belay Jacket hood is used along w/ the sunhat and balaclava.
I dunno about the MB hat --it just looks so...dorky ;-)>

If people think the GG glasses will do--fine. They are also light enough to take a reserve pair, if deemed appropriate.

Ryan--add some sunscreen/lip balm

Nano stuffsacks all around--I bet RJ can dig up a couple.

I think you came up w/ a doable pad system, RF. Good for you. Did Carol C. say something about the Pac pad you propose using?

I would prefer the Xtreme stove, myself, but a useable modded weight is still unknown.

I don't know if the down knickers are warmer but the Cocoon pants are a safer bet if things go South and things get wet or frozen. Which is why I favor the Cocoon Belay jacket/Pants combo over yours. I will say that ditching the Nunatak balaclava in favor of the Montbell hat/mask, makes the synthetic/ down use biases less apparent.
I also would say that the Nunatak balaclava would have made for the cosiest sleeping system.
( I just broke in my new Nunatak Arc bag over the holidays on an overnight and I know what my next purchase to winterize it will be)

By the by--Ryan, me, Bob, anyone else---we should hotlink to the respective lists from time to time.

Edited by kdesign on 11/29/2005 16:38:05 MST.

Kevin, You have a Ti windscreen, do you see anyreason it wont work with these stoves? you may have to cut a port for the tube to go through but thats all unless there is any other reasons.

the hat may look dorky, I agree, but I think it is the best option. it is easy to adjust ventilation for different temperatures, and this all around topper keeps the head system simple, eliminating sun hat and, and if the looks are the only problem, well RyanJ, just dont post any pictures of you in it.

you all know I am tollerant for cold, but I would like to mention, that I have used a hoodlees bag to 10 degrees with only a fleece beenie, so for me, both systems are overkill. but for Ryan J. both will work fine, but the MB hat system is lighter.

whats the weight for the small size nano stuff sacks?

I think Bill Fornshell has got the Xtreme stove down to 7oz, but said that it makes it hard to atatch to the canister in cold conditions, so we should go with the 8oz version.

the GG glasses are very flexible, and can be rolled up, so they may be hard to break unlike traditional sunglasses with plastic frames.
Ryans sub 5 list
Kevins sub 6 list

Edited by ryanf on 11/29/2005 16:50:14 MST.