Thanks for the heads up, Bill. Are you doubtful a substitute for the casting could be configured that would be lighter and less bulky but could still facilitate cartridge changing?

If no go on a light, modded Xtreme , do we still go w/ a heavier Xtreme or back to Simmerlite?

Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 14:22:05 MST.

I will change my list to a 8oz xtreme

and since thr 3.7oz for extra torso pad took us over 5lbs, I added an extra half thinlight pad for legs.
so the final is 1 and .5 1/8" thinlights, 1 3/8" thinlight and a 3/4" nightlight torso.
for a total weight of 11.8 oz

and a total in pack weight for my list of 5.28 pounds.

Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 15:57:49 MST.

is there a lighter snow shovel option?

could the snow shoes serve this purpose?

Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 15:49:36 MST.

Ryan--the answer is snowshoes are better than nothing if that's all you have to dig with (in the right kind of snow) but not a whole lot better. The blade of a snowclaw or a real snow shovel really helps----especially when carving out
the interior walls and platform. This is not a good area to shortchange RJ.

on Carol Crookers last SUL trip, she used a Mountainsmith Wisp modified to three-quarter top bag. this is 13.6oz after modifacation, and the wisp is a 30 degree bag right?

do you think this bag will work for Ryan?

also carol used a PAC uber micro pad.

I quote Micheal Martin

"I estimate Ryan J's system (a GG nightlite torso pad over a full length Oware 1/4" pad, doubled layer to 1/2" thick under the legs) would provide about R3.1 under the torso and R1.7 under the legs.

5/8"under torso and 1/2" under legs
well I thought up another system:

05.30 full 3/8" thinlight
03.00 1" PAC uber micro
01.90 1/8" thinlight cut in half and doubled for under legs
10.20 total with 1 3/8" under torso and
5/8"under legs

Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 16:18:32 MST.

Ryan F, You seem to list socks twice and it looks like the same sock. But the weight is listed as 2.0oz once and 1.5oz in the other place. This might give you and extra .5oz.

I also have the same GG Sunglasses but I changed the larger cord lock with a "mini-lock" and saved .05 of and ounce.

Do you really think Ryan needs the Tilley Hat? I have one and don't think it will provide much in heat for his head. Can one of the Balaclava be rolled up and worn like a knit cap?

Looks like something could be wrapped around Ryans head when he is at camp or sleeping and dump the 3oz Nunatak Down Balaclava.

Can the SpinSack covert into something for his head at night? Maybe with the PossumDown Gloves stuffed in it.

huh...

loosing the down balaclava would get us back under 5 pounds.

i'll look into other options.

could the down hood be worn in place of other and not have to be carried?

Bill-- the Nunatak balaclava (or the hood on the Belay Jacket on Bob's list) should not be thought of as only being used for the sleeping system. Chances are that it would be worn at other times as well, including during travel if conditions deteriate and certainly at rest stops or in camp. Something jury rigged isn't the best solution at those times.

The Tilley hat would not be my 1st choice but some sort of sun cap or visor is necessary should Mr. Sun come out and play. My Patagonia Airius cap weighs in at 1 oz.

Are those GG sunglasses robust enough to rely on for this venture? Should he have an extra (w/ such minimal weight as a penalty)?

Ryan F.-- we are beginning to play accountant games.
I would rather miss achieving 5 # than to "cheat" our way by moving things around between worn vs. carried.

Your pad system sounds interesting.

Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 16:50:29 MST.

The montbell Climaplus200 north pole cap would be worn and eliminate tilley with the visor and will be warm enough if combined with
a Seirus Neofleece® Comfort Masque™ packed at 1 oz saving two

and I wasent trying to cheat by moving the down hood to carried. it just replaces the existing worn bala and then there is no need to pack it. I dont know if this will work better than the MB hat

and by interesting pad system, do you mean I finally came up with something that will work? :-)

Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 16:57:26 MST.

RF-- would it be warm enough? Would it be comfortable to sleep in? Have you tried this out?---we shouldn't just catalog shop our way to a desired outcome.
That being said, it looks interesting. That is, not dismissed out of hand.

catching up--Ryan--I'm not calling you a cheater, just a caution about potential slippery slopes. Pad system on paper looks like it will work, just no personal experience w/ the Pac uber micro--has not been on my radar. Pax.

Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 17:10:16 MST.

the visor is removable to sleep in,so I dont think that will be a problem.

and its got 200wt. fleece and gore tex shell, sounds warm to me, but I dont know for sure.

and I have slept in a neoprene face mask of similar design with no problem.

also, has anyone considered Carol's modified 30 degree mountainsmith wisp bag at 13.6oz?

I didn't notice any details about CC's modified Wisp so it's hard to make a judgement about it. Some people consider the Wisp to have an over rated temp. rating. Loft and the design and quality of the conversion would tell the tale.

I trust Nunatak.

Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 17:22:16 MST.

The only really cold weather hiking I do is in the Mt Washington, NH/Northen Maine area. With the high wind speeds around the Mt Washington area most of the time and the very cold temperatures I never go without Ski Goggles and a Neoprene mask so my whole face is covered. Anything less up there and "frost bite" can become a real problem.

Guys--- we forgot to add any kind of windscreen/heat reflector for the cooking system.
Do not pass "GO" add 2 oz. to the gearlists.

Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 18:44:42 MST.

dang, another 2oz.

could RJ dig into the snow to form a natural wind barrier?

so should we go with the MB hat and facemask combo or just the nunatak down bala?

Rarely do I take goggles into Winter activities unless I'm Alpine Skiing or Ice Climbing. I do take a pair of Sports glasses that cover more face area than the usual pair of sunglasses. Mine are currently Spy Optics Microscoops (1.1 oz.).

I've used various balaclavas incorporating vented
nose pieces (removable) that covers the whole face unlike the usual balaclava. I currently use an old OR piece, I don't know what it's called but weighs in at under 3 oz.

My curent list

Clothing
10.00 RBH Designs Proto VB Jacket
05.20 Mont Bell thermawrap inner vest (2004)
05.00 Warmlite VB pants
04.00 Montane Featherlight Pants
02.80 montbell Climaplus200 north pole cap
01.00 Seirus Polar Scarf
07.00 Golite MW tight
08.50 patgonia MW zip T
04.00 Bozeman Mountain Works FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
01.10 PossumDown Gloves



Footwear
02.00 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

Other Items Worn / Carried
00.30 GG Sunglasses
01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCore Plus lanyard
01.30 Suunto X6
05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles
01.50 snow baskets
00.25 Photon Freedom Micro LED Light (Backup light)on aircore 1 spectra cord
00.20 sunscreen GG mini

138.55 ounces
Total worn or carried 8.66 pounds


Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
00.00 Snow Cave
16.00 Arc X Quilt
03.60 Vapor NANO Bivy
03.00 PAC outdoor uberlight micro
01.90 Gossamer Gear thinLight 1/8" cut in half and doubled under legs
05.30 Gossamer Gear ThinLight 3/8"
05.40 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel
08.50 Cocoon Jacket
06.50 Quantum down knickers
01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks


Pack
03.70 Gossamer Gear G6

Cook/Hydration
02.45 Trangia 1 L. SaucePan
00.20 Foil lid
00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
00.30 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
08.00 modified Xtreme stove
02.40 170g canister empty
00.42 BPL Ti foil windscreen and aluminum base

Essentials
02.80 petzel tikkia plus
01.00 Blister & minor would care supplies
00.50 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares - 1 / day
00.25 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle
01.50 Candles
00.75 wenger esquire knife
00.25 alosak to organize essentials

79.42 ounces
Total Packed 4.97 pounds

Edited by ryanf on 12/07/2005 19:48:18 MST.

The Nunatak balaclava should be considered as packed( it will be both worn and carried at times). I would use this with a lighter balaclava or a possum wool cap for various activity levels. Either that or a insulated hood (if something like the Belay jacket was on your list) and balaclava combo, would, I think be adequate.

Why the heavy Golite Mesh Cap? There are lighter brimmed caps out there.

A metal windscreen up close to the cookpot/stove helps to speed things up thru heat reflection. Yes, snow to block the wind is part of a Winter setup but not complete.

I meant the Golite MW baselayer ( not the Endurance, sorry) which is 7oz. Save an oz. (yay!)

Smartwool sox should be changed to a quicker drying synthetic of the same weight, like Patagonia Capilene sox.

Add about 1.5 oz. for snow baskets for the Stix.

Does your essentials list factor in sun screen/lip balm ?

Your list is almost there. ;-)>

I added 1.5oz to snow baskets
changed to golite MW tights
changed down balaclava to MB hat and Seirus Polar Scarf combo to eliminate cap
and added Ti windscreen. is the .28oz weight correct?
still under 5.


I think the hat combo will work for this purpouse. he wont heat up too much while hiking because he can raise earflaps to ventilate but when at camp he has 200wt. fleece and a shell. he can also pull the Seirus Polar Scarf off face while hiking if it gets to hot, and it will still serve as a neck gaiter, and keep it accesible if it cools off.
this system is very versatile and can be adjusted easialy while hiking but will still be warm at camp.

Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 20:26:03 MST.