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Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge
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John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: JR Winter Gladiator Kit 2 on 10/20/2005 15:01:20 MDT Print View

With that last change and removal from the base weight, we have nearly 5 ounces to do something else with. Kevin's space blanket bag might be in order for a cheap, light vbl.

Edited by jshann on 10/20/2005 15:01:52 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Winter Gladiator Kit 3 on 10/20/2005 15:08:54 MDT Print View

my space blanket bag? But let's add a VBL liner (whether mylar or cuben) to the list, anyway(say 2 -2 1/2 oz.).Map is an oz. too heavy--1 will do. Still need those xtra sox.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Winter Gladiator Kit 3 on 10/20/2005 15:21:03 MDT Print View

Ooops that was Michael that mentioned the vbl space bag like this

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/amk_emergency_sleeping_bag.html

It is interesting that in Ryan's Winter gearlist he doesn't mention an additional pair of socks, but we can surely add them.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00277.html

J R
(RavenUL) - F
Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 15:26:09 MDT Print View

It was just an idea Kev... Im not interested in deciding anything for anyone but me.





I dont need the karma of a jordansicle.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
To JS/ Winter Gladiator Kit 3 on 10/20/2005 15:33:25 MDT Print View

I think the mylar bag is the one--2 1/2 oz. and BPL sells it.
I know about that list and I think that Ryan spaced it on the sox. He also apparently thought that a synthetic bag was more appropriate to snowcave living at that time. I think that for 2-3 nights that he can get away w/ down---especially using a VBL
and the other creature comforts that we're giving him on the gear list.

He should have a candle--great for warming up a snow cave ( if properly constructed for ventilation) if used carefully.

I expect Ryan to carve out a raised sleeping platform and shelves (note:please document, Ryan)
-- we want him to live in the style that he is accustomed to as the Martha Stewart of UL Backpacking.

Joe, don't get so familiar-- that's Herr Professor Doktor Davidson, to you. :-P

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 15:37:04 MDT.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 15:34:49 MDT Print View

The idea of this exercise is that you guys not add all this extraneous stuff, so that skills / techniques can replace some reliance on gear... ;) I do appreciate the extra socks, but if it came right down to it, I do reserve the right to ditch (but not add) gear at the car.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 15:41:14 MDT Print View

OK Ryan--- how about my 2 1/2 # list of earlier?
Total reliance on skill and technique.

How about one little hint of what feels extraneous to you.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 15:49:00 MDT Print View

>> How about one little hint of what feels extraneous to you.

Clothing I can't wear or sleep in at any time. In other words, if the clothing is there as an "extra", then I'd like the flexibility to BOTH wear AND sleep in it.

A waterproof shelter? I mean, shouldn't it be cold enough that dry snow just sort of falls off it ;)

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 16:03:20 MDT Print View

I recomend bringing a G5 instead of a G6, using a arc alpinist instead of an arc X, bringing Coccon pants, mitts, and jacket, cooking over fires to save weight and to provide extra warmth wile around camp, using a mont bell breeze dry tec cover because it provides a little more warmth and is fully waterproof just in case Ryan cannot build a snow cave it provides more weather protection than a vapor bivy, also add a space blanket ground cloth to provide extra warmth to the sleep system and to use in an emergencey (down bag looses loft) for sun glasses check out the ones on the gossamer gear website and by the way bring extra socks

Ryan Faulkner
(not Ryan Jordan)

(P.S. I always bring a space blanket in the winter because it dose add some warmth to my sleep system as a ground cloth and I feel a litle more secure with my down bag knowing I have one. I think 2oz is worth it)

Edited by ryanf on 10/20/2005 16:31:05 MDT.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Gossamer Gear sun glasses on 10/20/2005 16:13:15 MDT Print View

check thease out for ultralight sun glasses

http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/Sport_Eyz.html

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 57 on 10/20/2005 16:13:29 MDT Print View

Who said anything about a waterproof shelter? I'm missing something here. I thought we were only tossing in a nano tarp and bivy.

Double duty clothing for sleeping---micropore rainsuit--you can dig out a snowcave or trench with it. You could use it to sleep in if you shake the snow and perspiration off of it---it would be a quasi-VBL as it is a W/B--- more warmth anyway if necessary. Ditto an eVENT suit --more durable,comfortable and heavy.

Glad you appreciate a 2nd pair of sox.

Yep, Ryan F. --they would probably work,too and lighter---but I have no personal experience with them. I trust they are optically perfect.

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 16:16:06 MDT.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 57 on 10/20/2005 16:21:45 MDT Print View

**A waterproof shelter? I mean, shouldn't it be cold enough that dry snow just sort of falls off it**
In Virginia the snow is always wet so I guess You may not need the extra few ounces on the mont bell bivy like I would if the snow out there is dry :)

Edited by ryanf on 10/20/2005 16:24:14 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gossamer Gear SUL Sun Glasses on 10/20/2005 16:27:19 MDT Print View

Ryan Faulkner said:
(ryanf ) SUBJECT NEW Gossamer Gear sun glasses ON 10/20/2005 16:13:15 MDT POST REPLY
check thease out for ultralight sun glasses

http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/Sport_Eyz.html

Ryan, I have a pair. They are OK. I reduced the weight of my pair to 0.25oz by changing the heavy cord lock that came on it with a mini-cord lock from Thru-Hiker.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 57 on 10/20/2005 16:45:49 MDT Print View

Kevin D. writes:

>> Who said anything about a waterproof shelter? I'm missing something here. I thought we were only tossing in a nano tarp and bivy.

Has the tarp been ditched? I don't see it on John's current gear list.

Philosophically, I think we *need* to do the snow cave thing anyway. A tarp adds weight, requires a warmer sleep system, and requires less skill from our guinea pig...err, fearless leader.

J R
(RavenUL) - F
Re: To JS/ Winter Gladiator Kit 3 on 10/20/2005 17:01:06 MDT Print View

"that's Herr Professor Doktor Davidson, to you"

Jawohl!

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 58 on 10/20/2005 17:14:12 MDT Print View

So be it--- no tarp. He has to dig out a snowcave or die. We could ditch the minimalist snow shovel, too, and Ryan can dig out his shelter w/ his cooking pot (seriously--doable, I've done it---didn't like it).
It means no snow trench,though--nothing to cover the top in storm conditions.

With a down bag for even a short trip, a snowcave can get humid--I don't care how dry the snow is--it does, Dr. Jordan should have some sort of a cover over his bag so I still say nano bivy. It would be hard to beat 4 oz. for any such rig.

So, we can save another 9 oz. or so w/ these deletions.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 58 on 10/20/2005 17:18:07 MDT Print View

Kevin may be right about tarps
mabey a cuben tarp will do the trick

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 58 on 10/20/2005 18:54:28 MDT Print View

Kevin D. writes:

>> With a down bag for even a short trip, a snowcave can get humid--I don't care how dry the snow is--it does, Dr. Jordan should have some sort of a cover over his bag so I still say nano bivy. It would be hard to beat 4 oz. for any such rig.

I agree. I think the following sleep system would be pretty darn light and still keep Ryan ticking, if not smiling:


Dedicated Sleep Gear:

Snowcave
Arc alpinist X
Vapor nano bivy
GG nightlight torso length cut down
GG thinlight 3/8" cut down
Space Bag VBL (or suit, see below)
-----------------
Multi-Use Sleep Gear:

PossumDown Beanie
Hooded shell of some kind
WM flight jacket -- draped (or worn if suit used) outside VB
Cuben VB Suit (if VBL not used, above)
Mitts
Socks
Light Balaclava
Usual clothing worn
Snowclaw shovel


On the tarp subject once more, is a micro-light tarp out of nano or cuben fabric really useful in winter storm conditions with high winds and snow loads?

Edited by MikeMartin on 10/20/2005 20:49:24 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
MM/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 58 on 10/20/2005 22:17:33 MDT Print View

MM asks "On the tarp subject once more, is a micro-light tarp out of nano or cuben fabric really useful in winter storm conditions with high winds and snow loads?"

----- I believe that Nano is Cuben (or something very similar.
I've used a silnylon tarp in conditions of high winds
and once w/ significant snowloads. With wind it depends on siting and pitch configuration but is
quite possible. We are not talking about ridgetop
mountaineering situations---there is a place afterall for bomber tents. Snowloads---well, you gotta wake up and deal, sometimes often---it can be a sleepless night. I have recently picked up a MLD spin tarp which will pitch much tighter and stretch less than the old one, so I'm even more confident of wind/snowload survival.

I do like snowcaves when possible--nothing warmer in the wilderness in Winter--but I do prefer
to share the labor of constructing one.

The sleep system you propose is good except I think we need to multi-task the VBL component.
Perhaps use a non-breathable hardshell or go for a non- VBL system that will still provide significant added warmth -- a W/B hardshell -- Micropore suit
or a more durable jacket/pant in eVENT or even Epic. All of these solutions would of course double as the outer shell of a clothing system for wind pro and added warmth.

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 23:02:44 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
VB Clothing on 10/20/2005 22:57:18 MDT Print View

I looked at the RBH web site. They have a few "testimonials" one from Rocky Reifenstuhl of Fairbanks, Alaska:
"The VaprThrm® shirt is an equally revolutionary garment. I wore nothing but your 10 ounce VaprThrm® shirt (directly against my skin) during the three and a half day (350 mile) race. When temperatures dipped below 5°F (it hit -20°) then I put on either a six ounce windbreaker for added insulation, or a medium-weight, pile-type jacket and the windbreaker. I never needed more than that. Part of the beauty and versatility of the VaprThrm® system is that it’s windproof. The windproof shirt, worn right against the skin, keeps a ‘micro-climate’ on the inside. When I got too hot from high aerobic output I simply pulled the zipper down to compensate. With the VaprThrm® shirt my outer insulation never got wet."

Question for Ryan Jordan:
Do you have any ideas about how a RBH Designs VB Shirt/Pants might work for a cold weather hike such as this one you are planning? At the price of their Mitts/Gloves I would guess a shirt would cost in the area of $175 to $200 and pants maybe about the same. If the shirt weight was 10 or 11oz. that might put the pants maybe 3 or 4 ounces heavier. What would a person save in other gear by wearing this VB stuff?

I hope to have a Cuben shirt and pants to test on my December Hike in the Smokies. Maybe I should spend a couple days hiking back and forth from Newfound Gap up to Clingmans Dome with different combinations of cloths and see how things compair.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/20/2005 22:59:44 MDT.