Ryan----got to plump up that pad system. Throw on that extra 3.7 oz. of torso insulation. C'mon---Ryan Jordan is a family man, he's got mouths to feed. Let him live. At least let him be a role model.

Also, Ryan, could you take out the concluding sentences that make references to things like the Met 5, etc. that are no longer relevant--confusing.
And like John Shannon was doing w/ his list--can you make a hotlink url to your list so nobody has to wade through the thread to get to it?

Something else--- the weight of snow baskets for the Stix needs to be added.

Edited by kdesign on 11/27/2005 20:38:12 MST.

with the 3/8" and 1/8", would you be happy with an extra 1/8" torso?
I think he could get by with what I got but mabey an extra thin torso pad will be good.

I re calculated the gearlist weight and we have an extra ounce to play with, and if this is acceptable for you, we can still go sub 5.
keep in mind, I have used 3/8" foam at 10-15 degree temps comforatably so I think Ryans 5/8" torso, and 1/2" legs will be warm enough for 0

and I promise to provide a link whenever I refer to my list

do you know the snow basket weight?

Edited by ryanf on 11/27/2005 20:58:53 MST.

I'm not sure I can sign off on the Dancing Light Gear pants. The weight is great, but what makes the Stephenson VB gear and RBH's sox and (from what I hear the Jacket) so highly thought of is their
textured interiors. These serve to mitigate what is often felt by VB wearers as that swampy, clammy feeling ( somewhat akin to a typical Washington DC
Summer heatwave 90 degree, 90 % humidity kind of day--you should empathize,Ryan). It kind of pulls some of the moisture that sometimes accumulates
against the skin when wearing the VB.

As far as I know the Gram Weenie VB is just Sil-nylon.
I wonder if Ryan Jordan might tell us if he has any VB pants available, what make and weight? If he doesn't have access to a pair of the Stephensons, now, he probably will not get them in time for the trip unless he's holding off until late Jan.

Ryan F.--I don't know the basket weight, try the Leki website. I believe their baskets fit and they may post weights.

Edited by kdesign on 11/27/2005 21:05:27 MST.

Near the beginning of the discussion, Ryan lists the VB clothes he has available. The pants listed are 5oz so they are not the gram weenie pants.

Bob

Edited by bobg on 11/27/2005 21:17:26 MST.

Ryan F, ---I want to quote Ryan Jordan on pads for the Winter ( taken from earlier on this thread)---

"In the winter I've used a (Nightlight torso OR a TorsoLite) over a (3/4 thinlight AND a 24" x 12" x 1/4" pad in my backpack) and don't have a problem. Having legs ONLY on a thinlight would definitely be cool. If my pack did not have padding in it, I'd take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad."

Jordan modified this statement w/ the following--

"Ryan wrote: >> I'd take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad.
Mike M wrote: > Are you talking about the 1/8" or 3/8" thinlights here?

A 1/4, actually. I mistakenly called it a thinlight (a gossamer gear product). The 1/4 is available from OwareUSA.com."

Your latest proposal is 5/8" for the Torso, Ryan?
I think that any thing less than 3/4" for the torso is
not a good thing for most people to try, based on my Winter experience. It sounds as though RJ uses more than that. His 2 posts sound a little confusing when taken together but it looks like he would prefer something on the order of a full inch or more of insulation for the torso.

Edited by kdesign on 11/27/2005 21:37:13 MST.

Thanks, Bob. Sounds like the Stephenson's.

so 5 oz VB pants, got it

oh boy. I dont want to go just over 5lbs when we are so close. are you sure my pad system wont work?

Edited by ryanf on 11/27/2005 21:43:31 MST.

RJ: >> I'd take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad. [with a GG nightlite torso pad]

Assuming this means the "double layer" includes the full-length layer. I.e., the legs are not three layers total...

I estimate Ryan J's system (a GG nightlite torso pad over a full length Oware 1/4" pad, doubled layer to 1/2" thick under the legs) would provide about R3.1 under the torso and R1.7 under the legs.

Ryan F's system (as I read this, a full-length 1/8" GG thinlite, plus a full-length 3/8" GG thinlite, plus a 1/8" GG thinlite over the torso) would provide about R2.2 under the Torso and R1.7 under the legs.

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/27/2005 22:03:45 MST.

thanks Michael,

it looks like the torso of my system is almost the rating of th thermarest prolite 3 (R2.3), wich I have used down to 5 degrees.

dose anyone but me think it will work?

Edited by ryanf on 11/27/2005 22:40:26 MST.

Ryan F writes:

>> dose anyone but me think it will work?

Ryan F,

The two (non-SUL) systems I use are rated (torso/legs) R5.7/R2.2 and R3.1/R3.1.

Personally, I've tried a R2.2 Mt. Washington pad on snow in a backyard test and been *cold*. I like at least R3 under my backside. But then, I don't have the youthful metabolism of you or Ryan J. ;-)

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/27/2005 23:55:17 MST.

Just as a point of info---RJ's winter pad system (as described by MM above) would weigh a total of 9.75 oz. (if the Oware pads are cut as judiciously as I calculated). This is only 1.55 oz. more than what Ryan Faulkner has proposed.

In fact, if the pads were cut to fit RJ's frame, it would weigh even less. I calculated pads to fit the torso to feet of my 6'2" body.

Edited by kdesign on 11/27/2005 23:44:28 MST.

Every time the number 40 is mentioned in the Bible it implied completeness.

When the flood came in Noah’s day, it rained 40 days and nights.
Israel wandered in the desert and ate manna for 40 years.
Moses fasted and prayed in Jehovah’s presence for 40 days and nights.
Israel’s spies explored the promised land of Canaan for 40 days.
David reigned over Israel for 40 years.
Jonah gave the city of Nineveh 40 days to repent or be destroyed.
Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness fasting, praying, and combating Satan.


Lets pray WSUL Challenge Exercise soon comes to a close and Ryan comes out of this experience in good health (and no strep throat ).

"(R2.3), which I have used down to 5 degrees. does anyone but me think it will work?"

I'd like to point out that when considering insulation needs from a pad used on the ground, air temperature is much less a factor than is soil (or snow) temperature.

That said, there are many factors influencing soil temps and I have no idea what RyanJ can expect in that area other than it'll almost certainly be <32F

OK, lets go with the warmer pad.

so is it a nitelite with two full length oware pads, or what?

KD, can you refresh my memory about the sizes and weights of the 9.75oz sleeping pad system, I keep coming out with 10.7oz?

Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 04:11:52 MST.

This is the pad system that RJ asked for in an earlier post.

03.70 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso
05.30 Gossamer Gear 3/4 length ThinLight 3/8" glued to…
01.70 Oware 1/4" Foam Pad (cut to 19.5 W x 30 L)

TOTAL: 10.7 oz

The Oware pad is sized to go from the bottom of the torso pad to the end of the 3/8" ThinLight.

Edited by bobg on 11/28/2005 05:59:44 MST.

The weight difference is that along with the GG Torso pad I am using Oware 1/4" pads (doubled up, except under the Torso pad. RL indicated he used this, as well ( subject to interpretation). He has mentioned I think, 3 different pad configurations on this verrrry loooong threaaaad.

So---9.75 w/ Oware and 1" torso insulation
or the system using GG's 3/8" pad and Oware foot section, coming to 10.7 oz. and 1 1/8" torso insulation. Someone else write down the "R" values.
2nd system is 1/8" thicker at feet.

I'm cool with either of these 2 systems---I think both are doable. RJ will be a bit cooler (in more ways than 1) w/ the lighter arrangement.

Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 11:43:54 MST.

What is being proposed is going to be at the limits of comfort--I kid you not--for most people. It is a far cry from the 24 oz. system that Ryan Jordan used on an earlier exploration of UL winter snowcave backpacking ( boy, that was cushy). For those interested, check out the BPL gear checklists section.

If you look at the Ultra Light winter snowcaving list, the base pack weight is 15.53 pounds. This list is a 62% weight savings at only 5.85 pounds and includes luxuries such as a 1 watt LED, synthetic insulating pants, insulating parka, not having to wear the vapor barrier pants all the time, and a thicker pad system.

Are we still set at going under 5? If you look at the BPL UL 3-season checklist it is 7.2 pounds, so the 3 season SUL is only a 30% savings over the 3 season UL. Our WSUL at 5.85 pounds is a 62% savings!

Just some food for throught.

I said before that a 20 lb. Full Skinout weight for this endeavor would be a victory. With this list ( or Ryan's or John's) we will more or less achieve this.

Run it up a flagpole and see if anyone salutes it.

It isn't Dec. 7 but I would suggest a final presentation of Bob's and Ryan's hotlinked lists.
There are some key differences.
Then a vote? or what?

Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 11:57:03 MST.

Don't count on a 7oz version of the Xtreme stove being very easy to use at the cold temperatures expected. To get the stove that light it is necessary to leave the Magnesium casting off. This makes attaching the PowerMax canister very difficult at best with bare hands. Without practice at home first to see if Ryan can attach the canister without the Mag thing it should not selected as his stove.