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paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: 10.6 oz Coleman Powermax Fuel Bottle on 11/10/2005 17:52:00 MST Print View

Thanks Richard. appreciate the info. i'm going to add it to a file that i have, so i won't have to ask you again.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Woodfires--way back East on 11/10/2005 17:56:23 MST Print View

If I were in your neck of the woods Paul, I would gladly build a cookfire and probably a bonfire, too, if travelling w/ a group. I have fond memories of a ski-pack trip in the Whites, some years back, where the mob of us built a Winter Solstice blaze that slowly melted a crater 4 or 5 feet deep. Most impressive and a wonderful social focus.

And thank you for your gracious demeanor.

jacob thompson
(nihilist37) - F
VBL on 11/10/2005 18:30:11 MST Print View

Once again I will begn by saying that I have zero Winter Hiking and especially VBL. I think that would be a cause for dehydration in australia. But I will ask. Is there any light rainwear such as the Dropstoppers that allows breathability when worn the right way in but creates a VBL when inside out? I have no idea baout the fabrics except what DrJ wrote in his papers. But it seems that if water can go one way but not the other than it would work as a VBL.

Edited by nihilist37 on 11/10/2005 18:46:20 MST.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: VBL on 11/10/2005 18:45:14 MST Print View

very interesting question Jacob.

I think the montbell Breeze dry tec jacets are supposed to be very breathable but still wind proof so if worn inside out may serve as a VBL layer???????

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: VBL on 11/10/2005 21:04:06 MST Print View

Jacob writes:

>> ...that allows breathability when worn the right way in but creates a VBL when inside out

I don't believe this technology exists yet. There are denier gradient fabrics which wick better in one direction than the other. There is also a wool-based fabric in the works which increases air permeability as it accumulates moisture. But, as far as I know, no current WP/B fabric has the capability you want. Although, many are so pitifully breathable that they may serve as effective vapor barriers when worn normally. :-(

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/10/2005 21:05:42 MST.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Legsickles etc. on 11/10/2005 21:29:47 MST Print View

Ryan wrote: >> I'd take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad.
Mike M wrote: > Are you talking about the 1/8" or 3/8" thinlights here?

A 1/4, actually. I mistakenly called it a thinlight (a gossamer gear product). The 1/4 is available from OwareUSA.com.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Reconsidering the Pack on 11/10/2005 21:31:24 MST Print View

>> Perhaps a Gossamer Gear G5 Hyperlight (7 oz.) would really be more appropriate--- or even a more robust pack that could take having snowshoes strapped to it without worries of self-destructing.

Northern Lites snowshoes can easily be strapped onto a G5 and it's tough enough fabric, and the snowshoes are "mild" enough that they won't get in a fight. I'm not worried about any snowshoe-spinnaker conflicts with the NL's.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/10/2005 21:33:43 MST Print View

>> Finally, I'm a bit surprised that Ryan had higher fuel consumption w/ canisters than with white gas. Can anyone offer a good explanation?

Because as a canister stove runs, the canister cools and output goes down. You have to run a stove a long time to melt snow. Canister stoves SMOKE white gas for short burn times, but long burns in cold weather, not so hot no mo.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Woodfires vs. stoves on 11/10/2005 21:37:20 MST Print View

>> if he's spending most of his time above timberline, it's poor wilderness practice. It's a Western thing---you folk in the East may not appreciate it.
If this was a in the woods sort of trip, it would be an appropriate option.

I think one night, if not both, and certainly part of the days, will be spent near enough to trees that I should be able to do a fire if necessary and in good stewardship. Even in the deepest of snows near treeline, you can always get creative and find swales etc where you can dig down into the ground and do a LNT fire.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Woodfires--what has memory to do with it? on 11/10/2005 21:40:39 MST Print View

>> Ryan the Elder

Good grief, KD!

"Ahhh dude, Mister Turtle is my FATHER." - Crush the Very Cool Sea Turtle, in Finding Nemo, in response to Nemo's dad addressing him.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/10/2005 22:11:53 MST Print View

Ryan writes:

>> as a canister stove runs, the canister cools and output goes down. You have to run a stove a long time to melt snow.

Mystery solved! Thanks, Ryan.

If I may be so bold as to paraphrase you in geek speak...

With a longer boil time, the pot loses more heat energy to the environment, lowering fuel efficiency. Theoretically, an ideal stove would transfer all of its heat to the pot (without wasting flame heating up the air around the pot) in the shortest amount of time possible.

I don't use white gas, so I can't do a comparison test. But, in my experience, the Coleman Xtreme Powermax stove does not suffer from the canister cooling problem. So, based on the BTU/oz of the fuels, and general stove design, I'd expect fuel efficiency comparable to or greater than white gas with this stove.

fwiw, I budget 40g (1.4 oz) of fuel per liter to boil water from snow with my Xtreme. But, thats below 7000ft and usually above 15 degrees or so in North Idaho.

I wonder if we could get comparable efficiency out of a stove-on-top canister stove with a suitable windscreen, or copper wire heat exchanger....Hmmm, back to the lab...

PS - much of this winter stove stuff has been previously discussed on this thread:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/33/

also take a look at R. Caffin's article:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/msr_simmerlite_vs_coleman_xtreme.html

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/10/2005 22:37:51 MST.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Ryan's Winter Challenge-Stoves on 11/10/2005 22:30:59 MST Print View

Ryan J. said:
1 (R) - Because as a canister stove runs, the canister cools and output goes down. You have to run a stove a long time to melt snow. Canister stoves SMOKE white gas for short burn times, but long burns in cold weather, not so hot no mo.

1 (B) - What about a canister cozy maybe with a chemical pack ? This would require a remote type canister stove. !!Continued Below!!

Michael M. said:
2 (M) - With a longer boil time, the pot loses more heat energy to the environment, lowering fuel efficiency. Theoretically, an ideal stove would transfer all of its heat to the pot (without wasting flame heating up the air around the pot) in the shortest amount of time possible.

2 (B)- !! I made an insulated collor that fits around my cook pot. The insulation is Ceramic Fiber that is used for Pottery Kilns and is good for very high temperature.
My insulated collar might help the pot retain enough heat to offset the little extra weight you would carry.!!

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Quest for fire by the senior R on 11/10/2005 22:32:02 MST Print View

Ryan my man---"You've got serious thrill issues,dude. Awesome." Crush is a very wise sea turtle.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Ryan's Winter Challenge-Stoves on 11/10/2005 22:46:57 MST Print View

Bill writes:

>> I made an insulated collor that fits around my cook pot. The insulation is Ceramic Fiber that is used for Pottery Kilns and is good for very high temperature.
My insulated collar might help the pot retain enough heat to offset the little extra weight you would carry.!!

Sounds cool, Bill (like most of your projects!). I haven't done any testing with heat exchangers or insulators yet. Your insulated pot might be much more efficient...or not. It depends on whether there is a net heat flow into or out of the sides of the pot. And, that depends on the stove's flame pattern, pot geometry, and windscreen configuration -- Jetboil uses a collar to great effect as most of the heat is directed at the bottom of the pot, while a side-burner alcohol stove with flames engulfing the sides of the pot might actually suffer with side insulation. Please let me know how it works for you. [thanks.]

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/10/2005 23:04:11 MST.

pack nwcurt
(curtpeterson) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/11/2005 12:29:46 MST Print View

"Canister stoves SMOKE white gas for short burn times, but long burns in cold weather, not so hot no mo."

Side by side on Mount Adams at ~10,000 doing nothing but melting snow, the Xtreme SMOKED a Whisperlite. That was 6 or so years ago. I haven't used anything since that can even touch the Xtreme for snow melting. Canisters are lighter, stove is the same weight as white gas, they're more fuel efficient, and you can't spill the fuel. I've modified one from the original 11 ounces down to about 7 ounces, making it an even better deal. It's the only stove I'd consider for snow melting.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Stove and fuel --modified Xtreme on 11/11/2005 14:26:59 MST Print View

Curt-- can you tell us how you modified your stove to get it down to 7 oz.?

Also, can you figure out approx. fuel consumption for 2 1/2 days based on your winter/alpine experience?

Thanks.
KD

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Sleeping Pads to eliminate legsicle fears on 11/11/2005 15:04:42 MST Print View

Based on everyone's concerns and Ryan's experience, the following Pad system is up for discussion---
Nightlight Torso Pad 3.7 oz. used over Nightlightpad(GossamerGear) 19.5x59x3/4" at 7.5 oz.
Oware pad cut down to 12x24x1/4" at .85 oz.
Last doubled for feet and lower legs.
Total weight is 12.05 oz.

A cut down Nightlight pad could be substituted for
the folding torso pad.

I almost forgot--the small "foot" pad also doubles as an insulation pad for whatever stove system is employed.

Edited by kdesign on 11/12/2005 12:08:22 MST.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/11/2005 15:16:15 MST Print View

Curt is correct about canister stoves, they work best in high altitudes, but if they get cold they tend to die. (has happend to me at about 10-15 degrees) I dont know if there is any canister cozies for sale, I know Bill Fornshell has made one. do you think one of the antigravity gear pot cozys is a comparable size for a canister?


But I still think cooking over fires may be a good idea (it saves all this confusion and mabey half a pound or so, and Ryan is willing to do it!!!!!!)

Edited by ryanf on 11/11/2005 15:41:02 MST.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
canister cozys??? on 11/11/2005 15:32:17 MST Print View

Any way,

a Anti gravity gear 3cup bowl cozy may work for a MSR 8oz feul canister.(modified)

and a mini solo cozy modified may work for the smaller snow peak canisters


according to Bill you use these in conjunction with a chemical heat pack.

Edited by ryanf on 11/11/2005 15:53:39 MST.

Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1) - M

Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister) on 11/11/2005 19:19:59 MST Print View

Ryan F,

The Coleman Xtreme Stove is a Liquid Feed Gas stove. It is not nearly as subject to cold as the usual Canister type Gas Stove.

Rich