Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge
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Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1) - M

Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
Xtreme vs. weight considerations on 11/10/2005 14:29:23 MST Print View

Kevin,

If we could get by with 1 10.6 oz Powermax Canister and 1 6 oz Powermax Canister, we would have 16.6 oz of fuel at a weight of 13.9 oz + 8.4 oz = 22.3 oz.

This would only allow for 6.64 oz of fuel per day in 2.5 days.

However, if Ryan could do this the set-up would result in 11 oz for the stove and 22.3 oz for 2 fuel bottles with a total weight of 33.3 oz.

Rich

Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/10/2005 14:36:49 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
come on baby light my fire--but on which stove? on 11/10/2005 15:22:12 MST Print View

So, we have a minimum of 5oz. difference between going white gas(MSR Simmerlite) or powermax (Coleman Xtreme) contrasting my figures and Richards.

Anyone else want to weigh in?

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: come on baby light my fire--but on which stove? on 11/10/2005 15:55:26 MST Print View

I think we should take advantage of the fact that Ryan said he could cook over fires, every ounce we save is worth it.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Woodfires vs. stoves on 11/10/2005 16:13:43 MST Print View

Young Ryan( Ryan F.,Ryan 2, Ryan the Younger?-got to have an easy way to distinguish between the 2 of you)---if he's spending most of his time above timberline, it's poor wilderness practice. It's a Western thing---you folk in the East may not appreciate it.
If this was a in the woods sort of trip, it would be an appropriate option.

Edited by kdesign on 11/10/2005 16:19:04 MST.

Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1) - M

Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 16:31:47 MST Print View

Kevin,

Even if Ryan J. has an MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottle (and that would be OK for this experiment), MSR has discontinued the Titanium Bottles and would not be available for any of the BPL community. They now only offer Aluminum Fuel Bottles.

Rich

Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/10/2005 16:33:45 MST.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Woodfires vs. stoves on 11/10/2005 16:37:45 MST Print View

I guess he may not be able to obtain wood, but I thought I read this in an earliar post?

Edited by ryanf on 11/10/2005 16:42:37 MST.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 16:47:35 MST Print View

theoretically:
why Ti? is strength really necessary? gas fuel bottles are not pressurized very much, right. so, i would think Al is more appropriate since it's lighter than Ti.

practically:
are they actually manufacturing Ti bottles that are lighter than Al bottles? if so, they must be very thin walled to be lighter than Al.

Edited by pj on 11/10/2005 16:49:18 MST.

Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1) - M

Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 16:54:04 MST Print View

Paul,

What MSR produced, and what most Titanium we use for backpacking including our hiking poles (like Leki) and cookware - (such as our Snow Peak, Evernew, and MSR Titanium Cookware)is actually an alloy of Titanium and Aluminum. Adding the Titanium results in a product that is stonger and can be thinner and thus lighter than the like item it all Alluminum.

Therefore the MSR Titan (Titanium) Fuel bottles are actually lighter than the same volume in Aluminum.

Rich

Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/10/2005 16:55:56 MST.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Re: Woodfires vs. stoves on 11/10/2005 16:55:19 MST Print View

this post is NOT to address the ethics of fires above treeline. so then, what is this post for?

this post is to validate young RyanF's excellent memory:

here is an excerpt from a much earlier Post in this Thread. Note that the author of this "quoted" Post is responding to another's Post:

POSTED BY
Ryan Jordan
(ryan - BPL STAFF - M) SUBJECT Re: Re: re.Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge ON 10/19/2005 13:53:14 MDT POST REPLY

>> also, you should be able to descend below tree line for fuel if you need to build a fire for survival or to ward off frostbite.

I'm a competent cookfire builder. If y'all decide for me to ditch the stove, I would do that, you know, for the purposes of ... research :)

---- end of quoted post ----


seems like he would descend below treeline to collect natural fuel and possibly cook there also or just use the fire for warmth req'd for survival.

Edited by pj on 11/10/2005 16:56:42 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 17:00:15 MST Print View

Absolutely right, Paul---Sigg .6 Liter bottle (alum.)
comes out at 3.5 oz. --same size , same weight.
Ti was included because R. has/had it.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 17:01:56 MST Print View

Richard,

i'm very familiar with both Ti and Al from working in the aircraft industry. i'm just surprised that in such a low strength application that Ti is used. Al is lighter than Ti and i would have thought (apparently incorrectly) that an all Al fuel bottle with thin walls would be strong enough. a Ti alloy (e.g. 6Al4V or another alloy) bottle would have to have pretty thin walls to be lighter than an all Al bottle. perhaps there's some legal regulations concerning strength related matters that govern manufacturing in this area?

Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1) - M

Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 17:10:42 MST Print View

Kevin,

Actually that is not correct. The 13.5 oz MSR Titan (Titanium) Fuel Bottle with the cap had a spec of 3 oz (85 g). Backcountry equipment who use to sell them had a confirmed weight of 2.8 oz with the cap.

Here is a link:

http://tinyurl.com/8uvoc

Rich

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Re: Re: Woodfires vs. stoves on 11/10/2005 17:11:05 MST Print View

thanks Paul,

I am just saing that if Ryan is willing to cook over fires then we could save some weight from a stove and use it for warmer clothes or something( so he wont die :-)>)

Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1) - M

Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 17:13:46 MST Print View

Paul,

As I said, the Titan (Titanium) Fuel Bottles were discontinued. Perhaps due to cost, perhaps problems due to thinner walls. But, I do know that they were lighter as the previous post to Kevin.

Rich

Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/10/2005 17:19:20 MST.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 17:27:25 MST Print View

Thanks Richard. I sure would love to see one of those. The walls must be very thin indeed!! --and still stronger than an Al bottle. If you know it, off the top of your head (since i'm too lazy right now to search the Web or the Forums - read it somewhere recently), what is the wt of an empty Coleman PowerMax canister (very thin, crushable Al)? if you (or Kevin, or anyone else) don't know it, then i'll look it up. many thanks.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Woodfires--what has memory to do with it? on 11/10/2005 17:28:05 MST Print View

Paul-- Perhaps I'm missing your point. I'm not concerned about Ryan the Elder having brought up woodfires earlier in the thread. I applaud Ryan F. for remembering the earlier post--
but I had not forgotten it. I was down on the idea from 1st mention (see earlier posts, somewhere back there).
I don't want to fall back on wood for reasons of
--wilderness ethics-- I had hoped this would be a leave only *BEEP* and footprints kind of undertaking.
-- I would like R. to be self contained. I think it is more consistant with UL philosophy.
--it isn't practical/safe to use in a snow cave if forced to cook inside in inclement weather.

I can see that to some it would be an attraction to lower carried fuel weight by means of using found resources. The romance of woodcraft. But, I think,
not all is fair in the pursuit to sub-5. Maybe we don't make sub-5.

Finally, if this gearlist is supposed to be something that can be emulated, please make it one that can applied to winter travel in say Yosemite or Kings Cyn. Nat'l Parks where woodfires are banned in many places, not only above timberline but in many places below.

Please, lets drop this option and focus on the stoves and other aspects of the gear list. Please?

Edited by kdesign on 11/10/2005 17:40:09 MST.

Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1) - M

Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
10.6 oz Coleman Powermax Fuel Bottle on 11/10/2005 17:35:19 MST Print View

Paul,

The 10.6 oz fuel bottle weighs about 3.03 oz and the 6 oz bottle weighs about 2.4 oz.

Rich

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Fuel Bottle weights on 11/10/2005 17:35:33 MST Print View

Richard, sometimes you just can't trust Ryan's specs.;-)> which is where I got the Titan weight from.

However, I had measured my own aluminum Sigg .6 L bottle.
99 g--- 3.5 oz.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Woodfires--what has memory to do with it? on 11/10/2005 17:40:35 MST Print View

Kevin,

i saw your earlier Posts on the subject when i was looking for Dr. J's earlier Post. i totally agree with the "Points" you just made on why wood fires are not a subject for further discussion in this Thread. good thinking. i share the same goals as you for Dr. J's Adventure. as stated in a much earlier post of mine - i hope to duplicate Dr. J's gearlist for my own purposes. wood fires would NOT be my primary source (even in the NE) of fire.

as to "memory" - that was addressed to young RyanF just to let him know that he rememberd correctly since it seemed he was, perhaps(?), doubting his memory at that point. that's all that was intended. sorry for the confusion.

Edited by pj on 11/10/2005 17:50:10 MST.

Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1) - M

Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
Fuel Bottle weights on 11/10/2005 17:43:45 MST Print View

Kevin,

I knew (I knew you were not at fault) where the weight came from, but I didn't confirm Ryan's Spec. It seemed a bit high to me but, I finally went back to the Backcountry Equipment Website for confirmation.

Rich