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kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Plastic liner in snow cave? on 11/09/2005 21:06:36 MST Print View

John, I have never done this. I think anchoring would be problematic. Furthermore, I usually send up airshafts through the ceiling.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Ryan's Winter Gladiator List (take 78) on 11/09/2005 22:01:07 MST Print View

Ok, I'll jump back in....

Davidson writes: (sorry, couldn't resist)

>> Dropstoppers Micropore Jacket

Why do we need this layer? I've not seen the RBH shirt. Does it have a waterproof exterior? We also have the eVent cocoon...

>> nightlite+thinlite+thinlite

Ok, how do you envision these to be used? What size are they trimmed to?

>> Possumdown gloves+vapor mitts

Can the Possum gloves be used inside the mitts? Won't they wet out? Anybody tried this?

>> Cocoon pants/VB pants/Gamma MX

Which of these leg layers would he use for digging the snow cave?

>> plastic grocery bag

I thought we killed this.

>> I suggest that more fuel is needed.

Primus made a 440g fuel canister (15.5oz full, 7.2oz empty) which is lighter than two 220g canisters. But if I recall, it contained some regular (non-iso) butane in the mix, so I wouldn't trust it in winter temps without some prior backyard testing. Also, I've not been able to find the big canisters this season. Maybe they are no longer available.

>> VB clothing...

Kevin, you brought up the wisdom of using a VB jacket on a multi-day trip without some prior backyard testing in a previous post. I agree that testing would be a good idea -- especially considering how different people "react" to VB under various exertion levels. (Personally, I've slept Ok in VB. But if I'm moving, I've been soaked.) Maybe Ryan would comment on his personal experience w/ VB clothing and his comfort level with using a VB jacket as a primary torso layer for this trip.

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/09/2005 22:49:26 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Winter Gladiators 'r Us on 11/09/2005 22:19:33 MST Print View

Good- there's still life on this thread

Dropstoppers Jacket primarily for snowcave digging to prevent snow creeping down pants and as a backup layer--a little more warmth a little more moisture pro.

Pads--Toso and thicker thinlight under torso, 1/8"thinlight for legs/feet/some overlap w/ pack -- nightlights are 54" (I think).

Gloves-- you're probably right about Possums.
I suggest a synthetic liner, perhaps a heavier weight capilene.

Grocery bag--yep, should be removed.

VB clothing--Ryan should let us know what he feels about it. It works for some---not me or you, apparently. VBLs for sleeping are great, agreed.

VB pants would be worn as outer shell for snow cave construction (over Gammas).

I probably missed something but I have a pending snuggle date--bye.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Legsickles etc. on 11/09/2005 22:29:48 MST Print View

Kevin writes:

>> Pads--Toso and thicker thinlight under torso, 1/8"thinlight for legs/feet/some overlap w/ pack

Hope Ryan likes cold legs...

>> VB pants would be worn as outer shell for snow cave construction (over Gammas)

Haven't tried this, but I worry about soaking the Gammas with the high exertion level.

Cheers,

-Mike

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Re: Ryan's Winter Gladiator List (take 78) on 11/10/2005 00:30:21 MST Print View

>> Possumdown gloves+vapor mitts
> Can the Possum gloves be used inside the mitts? Won't they wet out? Anybody tried this?

Yes, it works well for very cold temps. You can sense when they are getting too wet, which means it's too warm for the liners, so you take them off and stuff them in your coat/pack.

>> Cocoon pants/VB pants/Gamma MX
> Which of these leg layers would he use for digging the snow cave?

If this was my pant setup, I'd be digging in the VB's over the Gammas. Your legs don't sweat as much as torso in digging a cave, the Gammas wouldn't wet out too bad. I wore VB (silnylon) pants digging a cave a few years ago, and layered them over softshell pants, it was ok. Damp, but ok.

>> I suggest that more fuel is needed.

For me: generally, 6-8 oz of canister fuel per day is required to melt snow for water. About 4-5 oz/day of white gas.

>> VB clothing...
> Maybe Ryan would comment on his personal experience w/ VB clothing and his comfort level with using a VB jacket as a primary torso layer for this trip.

No problem, unless it's warm. If daytime temps are > 15 deg, it'll be sweaty. But I expect them to be < 15 so it should be fine.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Re: Legsickles etc. on 11/10/2005 00:33:31 MST Print View

>> Pads--Toso and thicker thinlight under torso, 1/8"thinlight for legs/feet/some overlap w/ pack
> Hope Ryan likes cold legs...

In the winter I've used a (Nightlight torso OR a TorsoLite) over a (3/4 thinlight AND a 24" x 12" x 1/4" pad in my backpack) and don't have a problem. Having legs ONLY on a thinlight would definitely be cool. If my pack did not have padding in it, I'd take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad.

jacob thompson
(nihilist37) - F
just a thought on 11/10/2005 00:36:17 MST Print View

I have no experience with winter hiking so I really can't weigh in on this one. I will ask this though, since Dr.J is taking camera equipment etc. is there anything in there they may serve dual purpose for his gear?

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: just a thought on 11/10/2005 00:42:00 MST Print View

I will have an ultrapod mini (0.9 oz) that i'll (hopefully!) use with a Stix trekking/ski pole that will serve as a tripod. My other journal equipment:

1. Ricoh GR Digital Camera in Aloksak with 4xAAA Li Batteries (2 sets) & 2x1GB SD cards

2. Rite in the Rain Mini Notebook & pen

3. Possibly a sat/cell phone with data entry device for dispatching live to the BPL website from the field.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Winter Gladiators 'r Us on 11/10/2005 02:23:52 MST Print View

quote fr/ the BPL on-line catalog webpage for the "FeatherLite Vapor Mitts"

"Ryan Jordan has layered these over PossumDown Gloves for backcountry conditions approaching -15 °F"

EDIT:
should have read the entire Night's postings before chiming in. the good Dr. has already spoken. hadn't gotten down that far in the "MyNew", so didn't see it b/f replying. i'd delete the Post content, but don't want to be "spanked" for damaging Thread continuity (a valid concern to my mind - NOT the "spanking"; rather, Thread-continuity).

Edited by pj on 11/10/2005 02:44:09 MST.

Bob Gabbart
(bobg) - F
vapor liner clothes / drop Micropore on 11/10/2005 07:15:36 MST Print View

Glad to see that we are moving back to the RBH Prototype Jacket and pants VBL combination. I'm looking forward to seeing how that works out, and I like the idea of dropping weight through the dual use of the VBL for sleeping and digging.

I'd also like to second dropping the Micropore jacket if we have the RBH Jacket. Although nice to have, it seems redundant. However, if we are going to bring it, I suggest we move it to the "Packed" list as it would be used primarily for digging and most likely would not be worn during the day.

Bob

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Removing micropore from list? Consider... on 11/10/2005 08:32:47 MST Print View

Unless the RBH shirt/jacket is cut long (Ryan?--what's the word,here?)--I would advocate the micropore, especially for digging out caves. I prefer to dig out a snowcave myself in a Jacket/bib combo to keep the snow from infiltrating under my layers. Also--when Ryan is slogging along, we have him with just the RBH topside---rather thin, don't you think? Not that the dripstopper is an ideal extra layer on top of the VB. Frankly, on top of the VB we could use a LW but more durable non-breathable hardshell for the purpose I had in mind.

Edited by kdesign on 11/10/2005 13:54:06 MST.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Re: Re: Legsickles etc. on 11/10/2005 10:58:14 MST Print View

Ryan-

Thanks for your informative posts. (Speaking for myself, anyway) we're kind of unruly and need to be hearded a little once in a while. <g>

Ryan writes:

>> I'd take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad.

Are you talking about the 1/8" or 3/8" thinlights here?

Best Regards,

-Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/10/2005 11:57:52 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Reconsidering the Pack on 11/10/2005 12:05:57 MST Print View

Does anyone still think that everything is going to fit in the G6 Uberlite ? More bulky clothing, more fuel, journalistic gear. A pack that had a foam pack back or used a pad to create a virtual frame would do double duty to help with at least part of the sleeping pad system.

Perhaps a Gossamer Gear G5 Hyperlight (7 oz.) would really be more appropriate--- or even a more robust pack that could take having snowshoes strapped to it without worries of self-destructing.

Bob Gabbart
(bobg) - F
Rapture?? on 11/10/2005 12:15:15 MST Print View

What about using the upcoming BMW Rapture Pack? It's larger and made out of more durable fabric so it should fair better with lashed on snow shoes. But it's 12ounces heavier than the G6.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Rapture size on 11/10/2005 12:24:13 MST Print View

I believe the Rapture was going to have a main compartment volume of 2000 cu. in----so it may not be much larger than the G6. It would fill the robust requirement.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/10/2005 12:39:58 MST Print View

For 2.5 days ( meeting the needs of a Winter trip),
I have computed the following, based on Ryan's fuel consumption figures:

Using a Canister stove system, weight of Vargo Stove and MSR cartridges (7 oz. fuel consumption a day) would come to 37.05 oz. ( 2.7 oz. stove, 20.05 oz. fuel, 13.35 oz. cartridge empty weight).

Using a White Gas stove (fuel @ 5 oz./day) , weight equals 27 oz. ( 11 oz. MSR Simmerlite stove, 3.5 oz. fuel container, 12.5 oz. white gas).

What do people think ? We will definitely be going north (or is that south) on the base weight.

Edited by kdesign on 11/10/2005 15:16:30 MST.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/10/2005 13:01:47 MST Print View

fwiw, I calculated fuel weights for various fuels and containers a while ago. The table wouldn't format nicely to fit here, but here is a link to a spreadsheet:

www.nic.edu/compsci/mamartin/files/fuel.xls

Kevin, what fuel bottle did you have in mind at 3.5oz? Also, I think the 12.5oz white gas vs 20oz butane/propane amounts you used unfairly favors white gas.

I'd love for Roger Caffin to weigh in again here. I'm a fellow fan of the Coleman Xtreme (Powermax) stove. But, it's not really SUL.

Finally, I'm a bit surprised that Ryan had higher fuel consumption w/ canisters than with white gas. Can anyone offer a good explanation?

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/10/2005 13:40:16 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Stove/Fuel etc. on 11/10/2005 13:44:26 MST Print View

Michael --I actually prefer canister to white gas whenever possible.
Both the fuel container and consumption amounts are based on previous postings by Ryan. He has used a ti fuel bottle for white gas in the past ( MSR Titan).

The canisters used in the figures are 2 large and 1 small MSR cartridges ( weights taken from Zen Stove website).

If someone can spin figures to favor cartridge stoves, I'd frankly be delighted.

Edited by kdesign on 11/10/2005 13:51:04 MST.

Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1) - M

Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/10/2005 13:57:48 MST Print View

Kevin,

Again, as Michael suggested, you may want to consider the the Coleman Xtreme. My Xtreme weighs 11 oz (if carried in stuff sack 1 additional oz). 2 10.6 oz Powermax Fuel canisters weigh 13.9 oz x 2 = 27.8 oz. The weight of the canisters weigh about 3.03 oz x 2 = 6.06 oz. The complete kit without the stuff sack would be 11 oz + 27.8 oz = 38.8 oz. That is for 21.2 oz of fuel. There would also be the weight for the green key if carried. Empty and crushed the canisters will take up less space and as mentioned only weigh 6.06 oz for 2.

Of course, you could replace one of the 10.6 oz Powermax cannisters with the smaller one and save some weight, but that may be a bit light on fuel. As it is with the larger capacity of fuel that would leave Ryan with 3.7 oz of fuel as a cushion.

Rich

Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/10/2005 14:05:12 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Xtreme vs. weight considerations on 11/10/2005 14:17:27 MST Print View

Richard and Michael, I have always been intrigued by the Coleman Xtreme system. However--this would be the heaviest of the options bandied about, so far. Far less need to be babied at low temps. compared to the Vargo/ canister gambit, to be sure.