I would not recommend only 17 oz of food a day in weather conditions around 0 degrees F. I would definitely lean more toward 1.5 to 2 lbs a day.

>> I would like to have you carry a PDA so you can give us live updates during the trip.

I am thinking about adding a sat/pda system as part of my journal kit so dispatches can be automatically posted on BPL live from the field.

carry it in a holster on your belt to be counted as weight worn or carried instead of weight in pack

Edited by ryanf on 11/05/2005 14:10:38 MST.

Let's not reinvent the wheel on the food issue, everybody. We had this out before, leaning towards 32 oz. and this figure has been used on the various gearlists.

I'm beginning to suspect that some people posting their pronuncimientos on this thread may have very limited snow camping or winter mountaineering experience---fess up, please! I would like to see posters back up assertions of "this approach may work" or" that may not work" with some evidence -- like personal experience or a good secondhand source.

Let's not try sleight of hand tricks like moving obvious base weight stuff to the "worn" column.

Journalistic equipment should not be counted towards the weight count, This is between Ryan and his pack capacity

Finally, let's declare moral victory with a sub-20# Full Skin Out weight.

Edited by kdesign on 11/05/2005 15:02:25 MST.

Kevin is right.

we should not only be working towards a sub 5lb base load but also have a skin out weight limit as well. but I dont see the problem about puting things in the worn/carried list to break the base load problem, as long as it is not weighing down the skin out weight

who said it wouldnt be a challenge

Edited by ryanf on 11/05/2005 15:13:02 MST.

Kevin,

I admit having little or no winter camping experience. However, I agree regarding the food, and that was why I said 1.5- 2 lbs per day, certainly feel 2 lbs is much more appropriate. However, I did pose some legitimate questions about having sufficient insulation, particularly the pants (and possibly the sleeping pads). I do not think that these concerns have been properly addressed. I am cerainly concerned about Ryan's safety.

Rich

Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/05/2005 15:30:28 MST.

My wrath ( such as it is) was not directed at you, Richard. And, I'm glad we agree about the food.
Nor am I attempting to censor anyone (of any experience level) from participating on this thread.
I just want people to reflect on their reccomendations and back up their assertions.
I think we are all concerned about Ryan's safety (well, let's scare him a bit).

Kevin,

Good to know that I can continue to count on another photographer (or former outdoor photographer).

Rich

However, I agree regarding the food, and that was why I said 1.5- 2 lbs per day, certainly feel 2 lbs is much more appropriate.

Our beloved lab rat will do as he pleases but I'd be packing 4000 calories per day @ 125 cal/oz .... 32 oz. Maybe a bit more.

1.) everyone should see a gearlist for similar conditions built around synthetic insulated clothing and bag. This is a very good reference point---
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00277.html
2.) the list that has been building up on this thread is built primarily around down insulation and VB technology. We want to make sure that this is analagous in function and warmth to the above.
3.) Ryan's FSO on that gearlist was over 33#. What we want to do is shave it by something like 40%. This is achievable in part if we generate something close to (but doesn't necessairily mean) a 5 # base weight.
4.) Let's see some lists that fail in terms of getting down to these weights but suceed in terms of keeping our esteemed Tester alive and comfortable.

Edited by kdesign on 11/06/2005 10:30:31 MST.

Ryan wrote:
> I don't mind using prototypes that are slated to eventually hit the market, like the Cocoon Belay Jacket, but do let's try to keep this with gear that is available from commercial manufacturers by anybody. Custom or prototypes are fine, like the 2mm neoprene overboots / RBH VB jacket, but let's keep the homemade stuff out for now. Anything I've offered up is all fair game.
> I want this exercise to be as accessible as possible to everyone involved.

and Kevin wrote:
> Let's see some lists that fail in terms of getting down to these weights but suceed in terms of keeping our esteemed Tester alive and comfortable.

My comments:
This seems to be something which has drifted in and out of the discussion at times. Just what IS the point of this exercise? Is it to get Ryan out there for a few days with what he has in his pockets as a once-off survival exercise, or is it an experiment working towards what is genuinely possible winter SUL for many people?

I believe Ryan's original target really was the latter. So this exercise has to be repeatable by others, and enjoyable (sort of!).

I can rememebr back 15 years ago or more when any extended trip (more than 1 night) always involved packs over 20 kg. Now the UL market is the hot outdoors market - at least in the warm dry months of the year. OK, now let's push the envelope outwards a bit into winter. But not as a masochistic survival exercise.

Cheers, Roger Caffin
(I started walking over 45 years ago. I started winter camping around 40 yrs ago, and extended ski touring maybe 15 years ago.
The Australian winter weather is usually reliably foul. Sigh.)

Roger,

excellent points. i believe that you hit the nail on the head. very astute.

i'd sure like to duplicate Dr. J's adventure (only perhaps in upper New England) AND come back with 10 fingers, 10 toes, as well as my nose and ears. I'd rather enjoy the adventure than suffer through it.

to that end, i'll prob. end up buying whatever gear Dr. J takes with him.

thanks again for providing some insightful direction with your Post.

Paul, I would be interested in a new thread for a Winter SUL gear list for the New England area. What about a Winter SUL 100 Mile Wilderness Hike in Maine? Start the hike off with a guided "2 Day Winter Ascent of Mt Katahdin"

Link to Photo's from this past Jan/2005


Then hike South through the 100 Mile Wilderness.

Wow:

Always wanted to do that trip!!

Jon Tierney from AMGA live just down the block from me.......
Bill, did you do that trip?

Having never done a trip in the West..do people think the gear would be different from that needed in NE?


A

Alan, No, not yet, I have been trying to get up to Maine for 3 years to do a trip like that. My next best chance is 3 weeks next Feb 2006. They also do something for 5 days that would be even better.

I have never hiked out west. I don't hike were I am not the top of the food chain. A small part of that is a joke.

My guess is they have a lot more snow out West and more rain in the New England area. Last year New England (Maine) had a lot of snow and it really hurt watching the snow build up and up in most of Maine and me being layed up in South Texas.

Meanwhile----about Ryan's gearlist...

I don't think he should go. He is going to die.

William,

i don't think that you need to be quite that concerned. i would imagine that this isn't even really a "survival excercise" - at least not for someone like Dr. J.

it's doubtful that his friend, Carol Crooker, who came first posted this challenge would have done so if she felt there was a real danger. i understand that she has a bit of very demanding survival training herself and understands what is involved here.

don't get me wrong, this isn't going to be a walk in the park by any means.

besides, Dr. J seems to be a pretty amazing guy. i'm sure he'll do just fine unless there is some kryptonite near the site he chooses for his snow cave.

Has anyone ever somehow staked plastic directly over their sleeping area of a snowcave roof to stop/divert the water drip? That would seem interesting to see how it would work.

To further stir the pot and enliven conversation and no doubt bring accusations that we're planning to do in Ryan Jordan, we have:

Clothing (worn)

10.00 (RBH prototype VB Shirt)
06.10Dropstoppers Micropore Jacket (size M/L)
01.50 Outdoor Research PowerStretch Balaclava
03.00 Nike Spandex Running Short Tights
18.00 Arc'Teryx Gamma MX Softshell Pants
01.20 PossumDown Gloves
04.00 BMW FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
Footwear
01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

Other Items Worn / Carried
01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCode Plus lanyard
01.80 Suunto X6
05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles
00.50 Sunglasses

133.00 ounces
Total worn 8.3 pounds

Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
16.00 BMW Arc X
04.00 BMW Vapor NANO Bivy
03.00 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso (Cut down by 0.7 oz)
05.30 Gossamer Gear ThinLight 3/8"
01.90 GG 1/8" Thinlight pad
05.75 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel
14.00 BMW prototype eVENT Cocoon Belay Jacket
01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
07.50 BMW Cocoon Pants
05.00 VB Pants ( RBH prototype would be nice-
weight is approx. for Warmlite
would be used for both sleeping
outer shell)

Pack
03.70 Gossamer Gear G6 Whisper

Cook/Hydration
02.45 Trangia 1 L. SaucePan
00.20 Foil lid
00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
01.50 Firestarter (candle)/ matches in Ziploc
02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
02.70 Vargo Jet Ti
04.00 Weight of empty MSR cansiter

Essentials
00.44 Photom Freedom Micro LED Light (2)
01.00 Blister & minor wound care supplies
00.50 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares - 1 / day
00.50 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle


84.04 ounces
Total base pack weight 5.25 pounds

Skin out weight less food, fuel, and water is 13.5#
FSO is to be determined.

Yes--this is an over 5# base weight-Ryan gets more insulation.
I suggest that more fuel is needed.
I think there is a missing layer needed to work with the VBL shirt.
Yes, despite my personal experiences w/ VB clothing ( as mentioned much earlier in this thread)
I think it is the best bet for a LW low temp. ensemble---and Dr. Jordan really, really wants to try out that RBH shirt. VBL liner gets dumped (sigh)
as VB shirt/pants/sox gets used inside bag.

Edited by kdesign on 11/09/2005 22:22:10 MST.