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Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Modified Bob SUL Winter List on 11/02/2005 00:03:44 MST Print View

<soapbox>
Why does everyone insist on carting a thundering great heavy Nalgene bottle around? It weighs a ton. Well, 2.8 oz.

I carry one (or two for 2 people) 1.25 L (2.6 pt) PE bottles from fizzy drinks. They last just as well, and weigh 43 gm (1.5 oz) each.

And why the alcohol gel?? What on earth do you do with it? I never carry anything like that.

0.5 oz of paper towel for TP??? Surely genuine TP for two nights would weigh less?

Why 1 oz for a whistle? Is he meant to play tunes? I never carry one. Very few people in Australia ever bother.

5.4 oz for trekking poles??? Hey guys: some of us go out without these things. A recent marketing invention. Free the hands!

5.75 oz for a Snow Claw?? Why? I assume with that raingear he won't be caving, so why bother? Another recent marketing invention. We just stomp a site down and put up the shelter.

Micropore jacket in a size S? Ah - is Ryan that small, when he's got some warmth-layers on?

Me, I would scrap the 1 oz of firestarters/matches and take a mini butane lighter. Or add a piezo-ignitor to the stove.

Essentials: since when have blisters been an assumption? If your footwear fits properly yopu don't get blisters. If you do get blisters, you have the wrong footwear.

Cheers
Roger Caffin
(Yes, I have been ski touring and snow camping for a long time. Foul weather, more often than not.)

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Roger's Comments on 11/02/2005 00:31:02 MST Print View

Hi Roger-

Welcome to the party!

Roger Caffin writes:

>> Why does everyone insist on carting a thundering great heavy Nalgene bottle around? It weighs a ton. Well, 2.8 oz.

I think the Nalgene "canteen" discussed is a 3L wide mouth collapsable bladder, not a hard-sided bottle.

>> 0.5 oz of paper towel for TP??? Surely genuine TP for two nights would weigh less?

I didn't catch the TP on the list. Not needed in Winter -- snowballs are vastly superior IMHO. Besides, you can't (or shouldn't) bury TP in the snow. I don't know about Montana trail etiquette, but here in enlightened Idaho, if you want a "fresh" Spring, you should dig down to soil, or pack it out. :-O

>> 5.75 oz for a Snow Claw?? Why? I assume with that raingear he won't be caving, so why bother? Another recent marketing invention. We just stomp a site down and put up the shelter.

We might be crazy, but we actually do expect Ryan to Cave it with that raingear....

Cheers,

-Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/02/2005 00:54:03 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
rinsing the SUL soapbox on 11/02/2005 00:46:45 MST Print View

Roger
-we generally use poles w/ snowshoes, especially in mixed and steep terrain.
-Ryan will have to Cave to use such a light sleeping system in the anticipated low temperature ranges.
-having wide mouthed water bladders is arguable.
-The small micropore jacket is a good point and should be sized up.
-For blisters(if any) he can use duct tape. Even w/ good fitting footwear some of us get blisters and I probably get more of them in the Winter.
-You can't carry a tune? And Australians don't care to?;-)
-Butane lighters often have trouble working in extremely cold temps.
-TP is arguable but alcohol hand gel is great for sanitary purposes (like after wiping) .

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
MM SUL questions and points on 11/02/2005 00:57:54 MST Print View

Martin--I think the beanie isn't a bad idea but there is the Cocoon hood, the hardshell hood and the balaclava. I'm agnostic about a hooded windshell --in fact if we go Propore, why have a windshell at all? For sleeping, the Cocoon hood would be worn w/ the VBL but the jacket part is not---it becomes the pillow. No insulated garments should be worn within the VBL.
Roasting bag or Gossamer gear's pack liner would be better than a grocery bag. You are right about the hardshell pants (although they only have to survive 3 days). Yes, there should be 2 photons and that's been added to my modded list of Bob's.

Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 01:19:42 MST.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: MM SUL questions and points on 11/02/2005 01:03:41 MST Print View

Kevin writes:

>> the Cocoon hood would be worn w/ the VBL but the jacket part is not---it becomes the pillow.

I haven't seen a hooded cocoon. Is the hood detachable? Or, is there some kind of quantum/PGD origami that can fold it into a hood and pillow?

>> No insulated garments should be worn within the VBL.

Sure, that's why I brought it up.

Cheers,

-Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/02/2005 01:20:09 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Cocoon hooded pullover on 11/02/2005 01:10:26 MST Print View

I haven't seen the hooded pullover either, but it's something that Ryan has mentioned having in the past ( or am I completely loopy--don't answer that).
I believe that it had a fixed hood and yes, origami would describe it. I've done it with my hooded down jackets.

Yes, found in RJ's article on "Breaking the 5lb. Barrier"--lighter than I thought--9 oz.

Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 01:14:29 MST.

Bob Gabbart
(bobg) - F
No windshirt? on 11/02/2005 06:41:59 MST Print View

What if we get rid of the Montane Aero and use the DriDucks insead? Then he doesn't have to pack the W/B jacket. I have found the DriDucks to be quite comfortable during activity even in warmer temperatures.

We could then replace the DriDucks pants with the GoLite Reed Pants, add a PossumDown Beanie Hat, move the Mitts back to packed, and still weight in at 4.75 pounds. 4.85 with a 2L pot.

If we don't include the Beanie and leave the Mitts as worn, then we could add the Neutrino instead of the Cocoon.

Also, the weight above for the liner socks is wrong. According to ProLiteGear.com, the Smartwool Liner socks are 1.7 oz in size Large. So medium is probaby 1.5 oz
http://www.prolitegear.com/smartwool_sock_liner_sock_pl.html

Edited by bobg on 11/02/2005 07:02:04 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
BobG and more clothing/ equip. considerations on 11/02/2005 08:36:00 MST Print View

Let's see. We are missing a base layer for the lower body---something LW like Patagonia SW tights or Sahalie tights. Not just for a little warmth but to be worn inside the VBL for comfort (sleeping directly agaainst coated synthetics is a yucky experience).

So, do we really need a 2qt. pot--- won't half that do?
Don't know about needing heavier Neutrino.

Finally, if Ryan is comfortable w/ this we can (gasp) sub out the Merino baselayer top and use the RBH proto VB shirt thingee w/ only a oz. addition of weight and still use the Nano VBL for sleeping purposes. Unless my earlier postings have scared people off this idea.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: No windshirt (and other stuff) on 11/02/2005 09:22:49 MST Print View

Bob writes:

>> What if we get rid of the Montane Aero and use the DriDucks insead?

and Kevin writes:

>> why have a windshell at all?

I can see conditions where you'd want both a windshirt, and the outer driducks layer -- Medium activity where the cocoon would be too warm; high activity but windy, etc. One advantage of having both windshirt and Driducks is that the windshirt can be a snug fit to reduce flapping and "bellows effect" heat loss. (The driducks has a very loose cut.)

Kevin suggests:

>> the cocoon jacket becomes a hooded pillow...

I'd love to hear more about this idea Kevin -- very clever. Can you post a description and/or photo? I am concerned that this will leave no torso insulation to use with the sleep system and *seems* like a high weight price to pay for a pillow. But, I'm still intrigued...

Kevin writes:

>> We are missing a base layer for the lower body.

Oops, missed that one! Yeah, bare skin against that nano VBL isn't going to be much fun.

Cheers,

-Mike

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
MM--Cocoon as pillow on 11/02/2005 10:01:27 MST Print View

>> the cocoon jacket becomes a hooded pillow...

"I'd love to hear more about this idea Kevin -- very clever. Can you post a description and/or photo? I am concerned that this will leave no torso insulation to use with the sleep system and *seems* like a high weight price to pay for a pillow. But, I'm still intrigued..."

Sorry, you don't get torso insulation within the VBL although one can drape clothing between the VBL and the bag.

OK--about the hooded insulated jacket (w/ attached hood) as a pillow--it's obvious ,once you try it-- imagine putting just the hood over your head, rest of jacket is a cape draping on back, fold or roll up ( or put in stuffbag) jacket portion up behind hood --you're done. I've done this on several occasions w/ an old Marmot down sweater to which I sewed on a hood to modify it for colder weather usage.

Incidentally, the Cocoon pullover is the basis for my sleeping pillow on most trips, where I don't need to use it to extend the temp. range of my bag.
I also think that I should either modify my Cocoon pullover w/ it's own hood or hope that BMW will eventually release a hooded model.

Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 10:13:19 MST.

John S.
(jshann) - F
VBL on 11/02/2005 11:36:52 MST Print View

Like Kevin said, layer the jacket over the vbl for even more loft, both layers of the flight would be alot.

Edited by jshann on 11/02/2005 11:38:50 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
SUL winter death march list updated on 11/02/2005 11:52:50 MST Print View

I updated the last list posted (the modified Bob built on the shoulders of John's) with corrected weights (sox, X6 watch, and other erratum) added Reed pants--a good idea. Changed Micropore to Dropstoppers carried on this Site w/ improved sizing. Aero windshirt dropped.
There are different ideas about what an appropriate
insulated Jacket/Parka should be used with posters offering the WM Flight Jacket and/or vest, Rab Neutrino, and hooded Cocoon. More discussion on this?

"Modified Bob SUL Winter List"

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/1435/index.html?skip_to_post=10312#10312

Remember--this is a working document. Slice and dice, cut and paste, or start from scratch. It's an attempt at synthesis---yep the 'ole group think.
Yikes, design by committee!

Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 12:53:12 MST.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: VBL on 11/02/2005 12:08:49 MST Print View

John writes:

>> layer the jacket over the vbl for even more loft...

I think we might have a misunderstanding here. Kevin suggested using a hooded insulating jacket (a special BMW Cocoon with an attached hood). The hood would be used for head insulation in the sleep system, making it hard to drape the jacket over the VBL torso.

I totally agree that if you didn't have to wear the hood, a jacket could be draped over the VBL. (I even suggested it on my Oct. 20 post on this thread.)

Kevin writes:

>> imagine putting just the hood over your head, rest of jacket is a cape...

Cool Idea! I'll have to give that one a try.

Just to throw out something else -- If we used a torso insulating piece w/ a separate hood, maybe we could get the best of both worlds (head insulation and torso insulation draped over the VBL). Or maybe we could go hoodless and rely on the PS balaclava and perhaps a Possumdown Beanie.

Best Regards,

-Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/02/2005 12:28:09 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
SUL gear list dissatisfactions on 11/02/2005 12:40:03 MST Print View

I'm unhappy about the activewear component
of RJ's clothing system--for the body, anyway.
I'd like to get in a softshell jacket somehow.
right now it's MW merino and the Micropore when he's working. The Insulated jacket is for rest stops and camp.

Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 12:50:19 MST.

Bob Gabbart
(bobg) - F
SUL march of death on 11/02/2005 13:09:02 MST Print View

Kevin,

You forgot to move the Dropstoppers to the worn clothing section. If he doesn't have a windshirt, I assume he'll be wearing the Dropstoppers all the time.

Also, from what I could get from the article that mentioned the hooded pullover, the hood is not insulated, it's like a windshirt hood. We should probably add back the PossumDown Beanie.

Bob

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Bob / March o Death on 11/02/2005 13:37:34 MST Print View

I seem to remember that there was an insulated hood prototype somewhere if not the one in that article. Also in the newer Polarguard Delta and not with Primaloft. But if I'm mistaken, then yes, we need the beanie. Also, if there is no such jacket, I would reconsider the whole jacket approach.

You are right about the dropstoppers-I'll update.

Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 18:44:04 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: rinsing the SUL soapbox on 11/02/2005 14:53:19 MST Print View

-we generally use poles w/ snowshoes, especially in mixed and steep terrain.
I have used snowshoes. I ended up carrying my ski stocks on my pack part of the time. But I don't use trekking poles in summer either. Excess weight!

-Ryan will have to Cave to use such a light sleeping system in the anticipated low temperature ranges.
Hum - having camped at -15 C (5 F) myself, I dispute that claim. And the water problem in a cave creates weight problems of its own. Are we still following conventional heavyweight logic?

-For blisters(if any) he can use duct tape. Even w/ good fitting footwear some of us get blisters and I probably get more of them in the Winter.
Then fix your footwear. Blisters mean your footwear is not correct.

-You can't carry a tune? And Australians don't care to?;-)
Dodging the point: it's excess weight.

-Butane lighters often have trouble working in extremely cold temps.
Never have any problem. I just stick it in my pocket while unpacking my pack.

-TP is arguable but alcohol hand gel is great for sanitary purposes (like after wiping) .
Excess weight again. You could try washing with water. I thought you guys were after SUL?

Cheers
Roger Caffin

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
rinsing the SUL soapbox--ready to rumble? on 11/02/2005 15:16:51 MST Print View

Roger --how about details of your sleeping/shelter system at -15 C. Was there wind? Were you prepared for a storm? I've bivouaced at 6000 meters on a ridge in a halfbag and Parka in temps. approaching what you were in but with nasty winds with just a crevice in rock for limited shelter. It was survivable but it was not a pleasant experience. I think we are looking for a little better than just surviving the experience.

If I or others are following heavyweight logic still we are proposing a system that provides a base weight of less than 5 lbs. Why don't you give it a crack?

Yes, you can snowshoe w/o poles but like a chicken flying, you can't do it efficiently.Not on steep ground. Yes, he will have to carry an extremely lightweight pair some of the time, as will he the snowshoes.

The other little incidentals add up to about 3 ozs. Before quibbling with these items we should worry more about the bigger picture.

Yes, I guess the sense of humor is excess weight.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Winter SUL list--Another area for musing on on 11/02/2005 15:19:41 MST Print View

That G6 is going to be hard pressed to contain what must be carried on this jaunt. i've brought this up before.
Any thoughts?

Bob Gabbart
(bobg) - F
G6 capacity on 11/02/2005 15:27:40 MST Print View

Kevin,

With regard to everything in the "pack" list, I believe that will all fit with the exception of the ThinLight which will have to be bungeed on. Food and water should go in there no problem as well. Carrying the snowshoes + poles if he has to is another story.

Bob