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John S.
(jshann) - F
Update on 10/20/2005 23:13:31 MDT Print View

Winter SUL Gear List updated to change food storage to plastic grocery bag, decrease map weight, and decrease first aid weight.

We will keep thinking about what additions we will make including vbl, extra socks (don't think Ryan wants them..lol), etc. What about giving him a WM Meltdown jacket or that badass RAB jacket or upgrading the sleeping bag or not cutting down the sleeping pads or add back Vapor mitts so he doesn't have to wear them?

Edited by jshann on 10/20/2005 23:34:08 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
re.Update on 10/21/2005 00:04:03 MDT Print View

If ole stinky feet doesn't want an additional pair of socks, nobody's making him. Ryan does need to photograph purty pics of his frostbitten toes and
tell us all about his personal experiences with the latest in surgical advances in treating gangrene while he lies in post op.

Incidently, no one has talked about footwear,yet.
But I suppose RJ will surprise us by wearing Crocs
or flipflops.

I vote for the Vapor Mitts, John.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
re. VB clothing on 10/21/2005 00:13:49 MDT Print View

I hope Ryan does answer you, Bill.

Personally, I'm a big believer in VBL liners used in sub-20 temps. They work for me--that is, I stay warmer and extend how low I can use my sleeping bag and I do wake up dry (no condensation within the liner plus the down in my bag doesn't pick up body moisture).
But as to VBL clothing used outside of sleeping mode---- I get real clammy (and uncomfortable) when I'm active, wearing the stuff in the teens and twenties. Maybe it would work better in lower
temps.,I don't know. I like wearing softshells much better---more adaptable to broader temperature ranges and exertion levels.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: re.Update on 10/21/2005 02:40:00 MDT Print View

thought i read an earlier post which said he would take the xtra pr. of socks? was i mistaken?

EDIT:
ok. just found it. here's Dr. J's post (emphasis mine):

"10/20/2005 15:34:49 MDT POST REPLY

The idea of this exercise is that you guys not add all this extraneous stuff, so that skills / techniques can replace some reliance on gear... ;) I do appreciate the extra socks, but if it came right down to it, I do reserve the right to ditch (but not add) gear at the car."

-------------------------------------------------------
Also, even though it's a short trip, let's keep the good Dr. warm and well fed. i can't help but think that the reason why Dr. J MIGHT HAVE (don't know if he was exposed some other way and not sure of the "timing", so i'm guessing here and could be "all wet" - only the good Dr. knows for sure) developed a Strep throat after his 9d trek (with all that cold and shivering he described) was just that - the COLD. seems like he supplemented his diet with the trout. this time it's slim pickens though.

[sidebar: i've read conflicting info from the medical community on cold and the immune system. however, when i was a clinical microbiologist, first-hand/personally, i have more than once cultured Group A Beta Strep (the worst kind) from my throat and tonsillar region - permanent flora apparently (very very small numbers cp. to other non-pathogenic Streps). had so many Strep throats under similar circumstances that it is too much to be coincidence. for over 20years, never bothered me unless i got really run down or extremely chilled, then a full fledged Strep throat complete with 10d of anti-biotic therapy - eventually asked my Doc to send to me to an E.N.T. (aka otorhinolaryngologist.) to have the tonsils removed. have not had a Strep throat in nearly 30yrs now. There are some other pathogens (e.g. pneumococci) most people generally carry, but they don't do well if we are otherwise healthy - "opportunistic".]



So...let's not challenge his stalwart immune system. let's keep him warm and well fed.

Edited by pj on 10/21/2005 03:09:08 MDT.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: VB Clothing on 10/21/2005 07:00:45 MDT Print View

>> Question for Ryan Jordan:
Do you have any ideas about how a RBH Designs VB Shirt/Pants might work for a cold weather hike such as this one you are planning? At the price of their Mitts/Gloves I would guess a shirt would cost in the area of $175 to $200 and pants maybe about the same. If the shirt weight was 10 or 11oz. that might put the pants maybe 3 or 4 ounces heavier. What would a person save in other gear by wearing this VB stuff?

Bill: their VB clothing is made with the same technology, but way different fabric construction. The shirt and pants will be lightweight, *should* be on par with the stephenson stuff. Same deal on price, they won't be that expensive. RBH mitt construction is very expensive, the clothing not so much.

What's to gain from a VB like those from RBH or Stephenson vs. silnylon etc. remains to be seen, but I've worn the Stephenson a bunch and I do appreciate its inner fuzzy surface which does reduce its feeling of clamminess, better than a non fuzzy VB.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
cold & strep on 10/21/2005 07:09:08 MDT Print View

>> I can't help but think that the reason why Dr. J MIGHT HAVE developed a Strep throat after his 9d trek.

Paul, my experience with strep is right on the money with yours. I do get it frequently after becoming extremely chilled. The number of strep infections I've received after a multi-day winter climb with too little gear is too many to count (perhaps my tonsils aren't the problem, but my climbing ethic - but then again, if I got my tonsils out, I could keep up the pace AND reduce my FSO...)

Anyway, this time around, same deal, but not from the 9d hike: I got extremely chilled standing in the Firehole River in a snowstorm with waders that leaked on a 30 degree day in a snowstorm up in Yellowstone Park. "Why?" you ask? Because fall baetis were hatching, migratory brown trout were running, and fish were rising everywhere, both of which tend to affect the decision making process of fly fishermen.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Ryan's footwear for Montana death march on 10/21/2005 10:29:51 MDT Print View

Ryan---if choosing your gearlist includes choosing your footwear, it is only fair to let you use among what you have so as to be assured of something that fits.
Can you provide a list of shoes/boots in your gear closet(s) ---you can remove the silly factor
and abbreviate the list-- no Solomon Amphibians or plastic high altitude mtneering boots, for example.

This could be an interesting excercise---- Does Dr. Jordan share a possible link to Imelda Marcos? Only the total # of pairs will provide a clue.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: cold & strep on 10/21/2005 10:57:27 MDT Print View

>>" if I got my tonsils out...reduce my FSO"

Dr J,

clever thinking. you have an amazing grasp of the UL philosophy.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Ryan's footwear for Montana death march on 10/21/2005 10:58:28 MDT Print View

Nice troll, Kevin. Instead of providing you a Marcos inventory, I'll provide you with what I have available for ... this trip :)

1. Any number of breathable trail running shoes that weigh 12-13 oz/shoe. The ones that fit the best are: Inov-8 Terrocs, Montrail Hardrocks, and Montrail Highlines.

2. Brasher Supalite GTX.

3. Trango S.

4. Dynafit MLT4 boots (required for skis).

5. Gaiters and overboots. OR Caimans, Forty Below custom neoprene overboots, about 16 oz/pair.

6. RBH Designs Fleece Vapr-Thrm Socks. Various silnylon/nylon vapor barrier sock liners. Any combo of socks you can think of, from Smartwool RBX to Possumdown and everything in between.

That should get y'all a good footwear start.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Re: Ryan's footwear for Montana death march on 10/21/2005 11:21:32 MDT Print View

>>"Marcos inventory"

i was just thinking...it's a little ironic, isn't it? so many of us who try to carry as little as possible on the trail have so much gear in the closet at home? probably, much more in weight than our non-L/UL counterparts. guess, there are worse things we could spend our money on, right?

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Saving Dr. Ryan's tootsies on 10/21/2005 11:31:06 MDT Print View

That's exactly what I wanted--something both to work with and be fair to you.

Troll! You beast!

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
VBL and Footwear on 10/21/2005 11:39:38 MDT Print View

Kevin D. writes:

>> The sleep system you propose is good except I think we need to multi-task the VBL component.

A space bag could also serve as a pack liner....

Oh, on the footwear thing, it may not be in your closet Ryan, but can you get your hands on these?

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/vasque_spindrift_outdoor_retailer_winter_market_2005.html

If they fit well, they sound like they'd be ideal w/ snowshoes for this trip. Plus, they might be warm enough for Ryan to ditch those extra socks and not make us all feel guilty.

Edited by MikeMartin on 10/21/2005 11:49:06 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Saving Dr. Ryan's tootsies 2 on 10/21/2005 11:52:45 MDT Print View

Ryan, which pair would you feel most comfortable snowshoeing with? I was thinking the Brashers or Trangos--neither of what I think of as winter boots, but w/ your neoprene overshoes (or a super gaitor type rig)...I guess plausible. Using Vbl sox, I've never used, but this would be a good way to review the RBH sox.

I personally ski and rarely snowshoe but I would like you to perform this experiment travelling in snowshoes because I think (perhaps wrongly but based on my personal observations of winter travellers in N. America) that more people do backcountry snowpacking in snowshoes
than skis, and thus would be more representative.

MM---re. Vasque shoes---are they on the market, yet?

Edited by kdesign on 10/21/2005 11:56:21 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Saving Dr. Ryan's tootsies --a proposal on 10/21/2005 18:45:25 MDT Print View

I like the idea of Ryan using the Brashers for his purgatorial endeavor. In part because I have been curious about their possibilities. Pittards leather is up to this (based on me favoring some old mtneering boots that used it) and would help provide decent upper support(for it's weight), and should provide resistance to preventing the snowshoe binding straps from creating cold or sorespots. Between a leather upper w/ few seams and the GTX lining, I think he will be reasonably dry. Would one still use VBL sox w/ gore-tex? The custom neoprene overboots sound interesting( 40 below? 16 oz. for the pair?), but lack info on it's features---were they designed to be used with boots or to winterize trail runners (Hard Rocks at -40?)
Without further info forthcoming, I'm going to suggest that Ryan use the Caiman gaitors.

What sox thickness fits in your Brashers,RJ?

Edited by kdesign on 10/21/2005 18:50:40 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Saving Ryan's Privates: Update on 10/21/2005 19:39:06 MDT Print View

Winter SUL Gear List updated to add Vapor mitts.

larry savage
(pyeyo) - F

Locale: pacific northwest
slather on the mitchum on 10/21/2005 20:06:46 MDT Print View

I've had good results using a nrs 3mm neoprene socks w/ a thin synthetic liner in sub-zero weather. I also coat my feet with a strong deoderant like mitchum.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: VBL and Footwear on 10/22/2005 00:13:39 MDT Print View

Mike Martin wrote:

>> Oh, on the footwear thing, it may not be in your closet Ryan, but can you get your hands on these? http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/vasque_spindrift_outdoor_retailer_winter_market_2005.html

These are 2 lb 7 oz. My Brasher Supalite GTX with RBH Designs Vapr Thrm Fleece Socks are lighter (2 lb 6 oz) and warmer and the socks can be separated to dry the system if needed.

I do have a pair of Steger Mukluks: Arctics. They are worth considering, certainly, if the mode of travel will be snowshoes. Far and away the warmest footwear of the lot. Totally cush. Very pleasant for winter camping. Disadvantage is steep terrain, as they offer little support. Their weight is 3 lb/pr.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Saving Dr. Ryan's tootsies --a proposal on 10/22/2005 00:16:56 MDT Print View

In response to Kevin:

1. My brashers can accomodate the lighter weight version of the RBH fleece socks but not the heavy ones. There is some advantage to the RBH fleece socks even in a waterproof boot, in that the VB lining is inside the fleece insulation, and the whole bit is one piece, unlike three pieces required in a typical vb sock system: liner, vb, and insulating sock. I do usually wear a very thin pair of wool socks under the RBH fleece socks to keep feet from feeling too clammy.

2. Overboots have an eVENT upper and 2mm neoprene boot. yes, forty below brand. They fit over both my brashers and my trail runners.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Dr. Ryan's tootsies--Final if snowshoes? on 10/22/2005 10:17:37 MDT Print View

Brashers
LW RBH sox
OR Caimans ( the forty below overboots won't work
w/ snowshoes very well, right?--no exposed tread,
neoprene soles wuld be exposed to direct contact w/ snow--no traction except for what's provided by
binding traction devices or devces directly attached to snowshoe frame. If using w/o snowshoes you would need to use w/ crampons?)
I'm hoping that you do a route that is mixed terrain w/ at least some steep (but not technical requiring crampons)country. Some exposed rocky ridges. The
grand tour. No Mukluks (Steigers are great,aren't they?) for the reasons you cited.

Come on people--weigh in!

Edited by kdesign on 10/22/2005 10:19:43 MDT.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Dr. Ryan's tootsies--Final if snowshoes? on 10/22/2005 10:24:33 MDT Print View

the forty below overboots were GREAT with snowshoes HINT HINT. :) I had mine custom made with a grip tread so I could walk around camp in the snow with them. Where I'll be going, the need to "winter" hike without snowshoes is very limited. There will be a ton of deep snow. The rocky ridges - the overboots can be pulled off easily enough for that stuff.