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Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge
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Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Winter SUL on 10/19/2005 22:09:50 MDT Print View

My two cents...

1) As I read this, all the insulation on John's list is Down. Anybody else worried about moisture accumulation in the snow cave?

2) Clothing worn hasn't been discussed yet, but I'd recommend a hooded shell to use in conjunction with the PossumDown beanie for sleeping. In keeping with the SUL theme, I'd suggest a Marmot Ion windshirt. (Quantum, 3oz.)

3) John, it looks like you're updating your list to incorporate other posters' feedback -- a nice way to keep things concise. However, please consider striking out items (perhaps by enclosing them in square brackets or something), rather than deleting them. It might make following the thread easier. [thanks]

4) Should we include the empty fuel canister in our base weight?

Edited by MikeMartin on 10/19/2005 22:25:05 MDT.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Ryan's winter list is morphing before my eyes on 10/19/2005 22:21:20 MDT Print View

Kevin Davidson writes:

>> Sunglasses or goggles --some of the better designed sportsglasses will offer almost the coverage of goggles,weigh less and fog up less. I've used them in such conditions.

I agree. How about Panoptyx. They are a hybrid goggle/sunglasses that I think weigh less than 2oz. Plus, we could probably justify moving them from the "carried" to the "worn" column and eliminate them from our base weight.

Edited by MikeMartin on 10/19/2005 22:35:46 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Winter Gear List of Death on 10/19/2005 22:31:08 MDT Print View

I second Michael M.'s suggestion about making changes on the gear list clear, John.

Your list has been handy to bounce ideas off of in the course of continuing to refine things.

Eyewear counts as worn, not carried.

I would suggest that Ryan carry some form of minimalist snowshoes ---like Crescent Moon Gold
12's (@ under 3 lbs.)or Northern Lights Quicksilver 25's (2.5 lbs). We don't want him to get off too easy by letting him ski back home in less time than the typical commute, but we don't want Ryan sinking out of sight,either. These shoes should allow efficient travel in all but the softest,deepest snow and encourage him to diversify his route by hitting those rocky ridges. He should demonstrate that it is possible to carry his snowshoes as a part of his UL kit ( even if that requires modifying a SUL pack to do so). Finally, the snowshoes can double as snow anchors for his tarp.
Because he mostly would be wearing the snowshoes, it should not count towards base weight.

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 00:36:30 MDT.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Winter SUL on 10/20/2005 01:51:22 MDT Print View

we should alert the media about this. perhaps the fellow from "Wild America" (i forget his name - marty stouffer??? or something like that). i'd like to see a Documentary on Dr. J's SUL Winter Trek of "Death". (no...not that i want or expect that, i.e. "death", it's just for the media "hype" - you know, like the old time escape artists. the possibility of "death" seems to make it more captivating for some).

oh...BTW...Vegas already has a "line". i'm sure the odds will change as the GearList shapes up and is finalized.

Edited by pj on 10/20/2005 04:02:41 MDT.

Courtney Waal
(d0rqums) - F
Re: Winter SUL on 10/20/2005 02:54:11 MDT Print View

I'm not that familiar with carrying snowshoes, but would it be possible to take a pack out of light fabric (such as the G5 or G6) and rig a snowshoe harness of webbing or tougher fabric over the main pack body and anchored to the shoulder straps rather than having the pack fabric be heavier? It would also be kind of neat to see a backpack with the pack body lined with synthetic insulation as both a way to insulate gear like water bottles and so that you could use it as an overbag for your legs at night, since you'll probably be using the back of the pack as a pad anyway.

Mister Ryan, you aren't allowed to freeze at least until the nano tarps are shipped! I'm going to suggest a family recipe to help you put on some padding before your adventure:

Preheat oven to 425. Mix two eggs and 1 cup milk in a shallow bowl. Fill another bowl with dry (flaky) flour dough or breadcrumbs. Coat chicken pieces in the milk and egg first and then the bread and allow to dry for an hour on a rack. Generously apply butter to the bottom of a casserole pan and place a layer of chicken followed by pats of butter. Continue layering until casserole is full, coating the chicken in pats of butter. If you haven't used two sticks of butter yet, go back and fix it. Cook for 60-90 minutes or until internal temperature is 165 F. Serve with butter and mashed potatoes (made with butter).

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: Winter SUL on 10/20/2005 03:02:10 MDT Print View

Thanks for the feedback. I will try to do that or put update notes on the bottom of the post. I did have the cocoon pullover and pants listed, but I am not sure what would need to be removed to make that work. Do feel free to cut/paste my list and make any changes you are interested in to see if it can work.

The JRB weather shield top with polycro groundsheet could replace the bivy and maybe give more sleeping bag water resistance. That may be difficult to stay in place over the sleeping bag though.

Edited by jshann on 10/20/2005 03:12:40 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Winter SUL Gladiator Kit ( home assembly required) on 10/20/2005 08:37:52 MDT Print View

I would keep the bivy because it has a more unified integrity than the seperate sheets you are proposing. Quantum is amazingly water resistant.

Also, we need a few BMW products for Ryan to carry. Promotional, you know? Ryan's got a family to feed.

Another thing, these will be ideal conditions for VBL clothing which could be another means of cutting weight. In fact, I think an Arc X could be used after all if VBL is worn at night or a VBL bag liner is used.

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 08:41:09 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Winter SUL Gladiator Kit ( home assembly required) on 10/20/2005 11:21:17 MDT Print View

Vapor barrier clothing made from cuben fabric would be the ticket. An entire suit or bag may weigh around 3-4 oz. I'm guessing

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge on 10/20/2005 11:47:31 MDT Print View

Just wondering out loud... is this Carol's sinister plot to rid herself of RJ?

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Winter SUL Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 12:13:02 MDT Print View

John Shannon writes:

>> Vapor barrier clothing made from cuben fabric would be the ticket. An entire suit or bag may weigh around 3-4 oz. I'm guessing.

Now we're talking! Great idea, John. A suit would allow easy use of his warm clothing in the sleep system, but if we went the bag liner route, he could still drape the WM flight jacket over the top of the VBL.

Maybe we could coax Bill Fornshell to volunteer to make Ryan a Cuben VBL suit... <g>

If not, an even lighter alternative would be one of those mylar space bags for a VBL at 2.6oz.

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/05/2005 17:20:18 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Winter Gladiator Kit ( home assembly required) on 10/20/2005 12:33:08 MDT Print View

John --please take off the googles and substitute the glasses---it will work. I like the idea of a Cuben VBL top/bottom combo or a cuben VBL liner---weight would trade across the board ( infact, it could come in lighter)
----unless Ryan rules that previously unmade custom equipment is not allowed for purposes of this game.

We should decide on his mode of travel,gang. See my earlier post advocating snowshoes (and why)

Finally, we should pay attention to the clothing he will be wearing (not counted towards base weight)
I would suggest for starters the following:

Topside--- Icebreaker Bodyfit 260 L/S Tech Top ( about 12 oz. med.)
---Golite Momentum Softshell (12 oz. M)
---ID eVENT Jacket (W/B layer) -- oversized
to size large (9.5 oz. )
--- Gloves (possum wool)---(1.8 oz.)
--- Overmitts ( BMW Vapor Mitts @ 4 oz.)
---Balaclava-Golite CTE (2.5Oz.)

Bottoms--- synthetic baselayer - Golite LW C-Thru
Tights (4 oz.)
--- softshell pant-Golite Propel (10 oz.)
--- W/B hardshell pant-ID eVENT pant
(10 oz.)
I don't strongly advocate specific makes above so
change away.

But, what am I anyway,his mother? I feel I'm dressing him too warmly. I would subtract a layer here,a layer there, for myself. I get all parental when I suggest clothing for other people.

Also, throw in a Photon Freedom light on a string for backup and a Suunto X6 or S6 altimeter watch.

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 13:12:32 MDT.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Winter Gladiator Kit ( home assembly required) on 10/20/2005 13:28:51 MDT Print View

Nice clothing list, Kevin.

Since the whole trip is supposed to be sub-freezing, I suggest ditching the eVent stuff, although he'll still need something else (with a hood) on top.

Also, I believe the Golite Propel pants have a powerstretch backside. I'd suggest something w/ better weather protection like Arcteryx Gamma MX, or some Dryskin pants.

How do you feel about Panoptyx sunglasses?

Snowshoes work for me. They're lighter than a ski setup anyway. I've heard good things about Northern Lights (sp?), but haven't used them personally.

Edited by MikeMartin on 10/20/2005 13:31:20 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Saving Dr. Ryan w/ comfort and style on 10/20/2005 13:58:42 MDT Print View

The Panoptyx would work well.
As to the eVENT layer, I think W/B hardshells have a place in these temps. as a means of additional low bulk/weight warmth. If you ever dig out a snowcave, one really appreciates the value of a hardshell to keep you dry.

Gamma MX or dryskin works for me as would Beyond Fleece's Cold Fusion or Vayu Pants (using Schoeller's WB-400 softshell material).


Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 14:00:44 MDT.

(RavenUL) - F
Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 14:01:05 MDT Print View

Maybe it might be more efficient to decide on a packing checklist first.

Rather than worry about individual items and their weights, figure out what general items need to get packed and then find the lightest specific items to fit the need.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
JR Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 14:12:20 MDT Print View

Would you care to generate one?
I'm not feeling quite lucid enough. I've spent much of the a.m. in a spray booth---lacquer.

Like...far out, mannn...

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 14:50:23 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
VBL and Ryan's Trek on 10/20/2005 14:24:14 MDT Print View

Don't be so persumptuous to think a VBL suit hasn't been though about. I expect one day soon you will see all soft goods made out of Cuben material to test to see how/if it will work. I am working on a pair of pants at this time but I want to put full side zips on it. I have some light YKK 2-way separating zippers 26" long but want some 35" long. I am on hold waiting for a phone call to see if I can get them. They would be #3 coil YKK zippers. Very light. The 26" zippers that I have weigh 10 grams. I am also waiting on some shorter zippers same kind but 14" long to put on the sides of a shirt. I will use the 26" zippers on the pants if it will take awhile to get the 35" zippers. I want to try the shirt and pants out on a hike that will start the week before Christmas.

My plan is to start at Newfound Gap and take the AT south back to Fontana Dam. Adjust my gear as necessary and continue south on the AT to Dicks Creek Gap. I am hoping to see some snow.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Update on 10/20/2005 14:36:47 MDT Print View

At Kevin's request, gear list updated to remove goggles and replace with sportsglasses.

Edited by jshann on 10/20/2005 14:39:05 MDT.

(RavenUL) - F
Re: JR Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 14:46:58 MDT Print View

"Would you care to generate one? "

I just find that its often easiest to sort out the abstract then worry about the details.

Bob Gabbart
(bobg) - F
abstract SUL winter list on 10/20/2005 14:53:29 MDT Print View

I agree with Joe Robbins. You guys should first sort out an abstract SUL winter list without worry about specifc brands/models. Then once the abstract list is agreed to, go back and decide on the specific brand/model.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
JR Winter Gladiator Kit 2 on 10/20/2005 14:53:43 MDT Print View

Well, Joe--- those who do the work decide.

I think that we just will have to play off of John's
base weight list and my stuff worn list until someone else steps in.

How about you, Bob G?
It is a good idea.

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 15:10:01 MDT.