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Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge
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kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
back to ya, RF on 11/29/2005 17:01:04 MST Print View

The Ti windscreen is only about 3.5 " high and is obviously meant to rest on the ground--- not high enough to function with the stoves we're talking about. One would need to create a base that attaches to the pot supports to rest the wind screen
on and of course cut and shaped to work w/ whatever pot is going along for the job. That base is probably going to need to be made from a stiffer (and heavier) material than the Ti foil.

But why the 8 oz. figure for the Xtreme, Ryan? It seems arbitrary. I don't think anyone has produced
a modded one at that weight, yet. It may not be practical for cold weather operation (taking the canister on and off) to modify it at all.

As to Nano stuff sacks--ask RJ--he has alluded to their (future) existance.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
and something about hats and hoods on 11/29/2005 17:20:00 MST Print View

In digging out a snowcave, I've noticed that snow invariably tries to sneak into any breaks in the clothing system possible. Like down the neck and down the back of pants ( but alas, no salopettes or bibs seem to be going on this trip).

One thing I like about having a hooded jacket along is that you get that added neck pro. No spindriff going anywhere down my back. Would the North Pole Hat and Polar Scarf provide enough?
Or is this another reason to have something like the Cocoon Belay Jacket along?

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: back to ya, RF on 11/29/2005 17:21:31 MST Print View

I quote Micheal Martin

Ryan writes:

>> do you know the weight of the striped stove set up?

Ryan. I'd tentatively figure 8oz for the stove. This could be achieved with a mild stripping. The final weight may even be less.
"end quote"

We could go with the 7 oz version, but Bill fornshell says its dificult to attatch to the cartrige w/o practice.

and about the windscreen,
Ryan could dig down the snow under the stove 1 inch or so, and leave the windscreen sitting 1 inch higher than the stove base. giving an extra inch to the screen.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Xtreme at 8 oz./info needed & Windscreens on 11/29/2005 17:31:11 MST Print View

Michael Martin---please phone home. We need particulars about your stripped down unit and did he observe that it would be practical in the Temps. being discussed.

It's a clever thought, Ryan. I think there could be both issues of stove heat melting away the snow support and the reduced clearances of what you are proposing could starve the air supply of the stove, although the holes punched in the foil could mitigate the latter. These high output stoves use a lot of O.

When I've built windbreaks for stoves from snow, they are much further away.

Edited by kdesign on 11/29/2005 17:35:04 MST.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Xtreme Stove for Ryan's .... on 11/29/2005 18:01:28 MST Print View

What about sitting the stove and the wind screen on the Snow Claw. The one you have listed for Ryan's trip is about 12" square. This may support the Xtreme (or what ever stove), canister and windscreen without sinking into the snow under it.

Is Ryan going to hike to a different "over-night" sleeping spot each day or stay in one place?

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
re.Xtreme Stove for Ryan's on 11/29/2005 18:27:04 MST Print View

Bill --not sure I follow your idea. I don't see how it helps a ti foil windscreen set up. Please enlighten.

As a base for stove and fuel, I put mine on a foam pad to prevent things from sinking and to keep the fuel and fuel line insulated from the snow.

I would hope that Dr. J is not base camping and will be making epic inroads before setting up camp again.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Xtreme at 8 oz. on 11/29/2005 19:33:46 MST Print View

KD writes:

>> Michael Martin---please phone home. We need particulars about your stripped down unit...

This is what I had in mind. The components shown weigh 8.0oz. The BPL Ti Esbit stand shown is (unfortunately) not useable with this stove and is only representative of a similar (and so far unbuilt) Ti stand as described here.



Edited by MikeMartin on 11/29/2005 19:49:23 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Xtreme at 8 oz.--thanks MM on 11/29/2005 20:04:08 MST Print View

So you still use the stock Magnesium block and no worries about the cold weather use issue. Great. Someone just needs to get the ti rod stock and build it.

The question is --can Ryan J. get his hands on a modded one (by building or by having it built) in time for his thrilling adventure? Inquiring minds would like to know. I would love to see the Xtreme taken along.

There is also Curt Peterson's modded version ( on the same page as MM's link above) which uses an inverted Pocket Rocket stand.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Xtreme Stove for Ryan's .... on 11/29/2005 20:32:43 MST Print View

"As a base for stove and fuel, I put mine on a foam pad to prevent things from sinking and to keep the fuel and fuel line insulated from the snow."

Will Ryan have a foam pad to use?

I am getting a new toy next Friday.

   "Click on Picture to Enlarge"

With this I should be able to mill/drill the extra metal off the casting on the Xtreme stove. My goal will be to remove 60% min of the current weight. If my learning curve is quick I should know by the end of the weekend.

My current version of the Xtreme has a stove stand and then a separate stand for the cook pot. The stand for the cook pot is made like the one on my Coffee Can Wood stove. I will post a few pictures tomorrow. I still have a couple of ideas that I need to try and some material that I can't get till Wednesday morning.

Edited by bfornshell on 11/29/2005 20:37:16 MST.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Xtreme at 8 oz./info needed & Windscreens on 11/29/2005 21:00:20 MST Print View


I want to know the weight estimation of your future Xtreme.

for now, what weight should I put down for the Xtreme stove?

Kevin, if you put some aluminum foil down under the stove, would this keep the stove from melting the suport?

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Windscreen suport on 11/29/2005 21:10:32 MST Print View

Ok, I just had an idea.

the stove is used on the snow claw and on opposite sides of the stove you put the edges of the uberlight on one side
and stacked thinlights on the other. this gives 1 inch on either side for the wind sreen to sit on and 1 inch of ventilation on two sides.
the 1" uber torso on one side.
2 halfs of 1/8" thinlight ,eg insulation and full length 3/8" thinlight folded in half, creating a toal of 1" stand on either side of the stove for the windscreen to sit on

Edited by ryanf on 11/29/2005 21:12:10 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
more windscreen supports w/o the torture element on 11/29/2005 21:30:53 MST Print View

There are easier ways to use the Ti windscreen with the Xtreme (or Simmerlite if somebodies don't produce a modded X).
I would cut from an aluminum pie tin the same kind of base/heat reflector that I use for my Gigapower canister stove. What I'm talking about can be found in it's less refined form here--

It could be modified to fit whatever stand ends up being used for the modded Xtreme. It weighs in at
1/4 oz. That and the Ti foil screen would weigh in at practically nothing---well say .35 oz. plus a paperclip.

Bill---RJ will have plenty of foam pads available. Best of luck on the operation and congrats on the cool new tool. Keep us posted in realtime.

and with this---talk to all in the AM

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: more windscreen supports w/o the torture element on 11/29/2005 21:35:46 MST Print View

is the simmmerlite an option still?

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
is a modified extreme stove a plan for success?? on 11/29/2005 21:44:25 MST Print View

The stove discussion is very good stuff for the early stages of invention but since we're planning on sending him out with this kit I just gotta ask ... "What reason will we have to think it will work for this trip?"

How much time will needed to manufacture, field test and ship the stove to MT?

By field test, I mean a few simulations of the expected use:
* stove and fuel exposed to worst expected conditons for 42 hrs
* cooking 4 meals at hours 8, 20, 28 and 42
* melting snow for Ryan's anticipated water consumption in however many batches he expects to make.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Windscreens/ Xtreme issues on 11/30/2005 11:45:20 MST Print View

RF-- using my base/reflector and ti foil sized for the pot currently on the list yields a weight of .42 oz. The base could be made from a lighter gauged aluminum and weight would be about .35 oz.
This is on a need to know basis. We shouldn't quibble over a few grams on this item.

Also, Ryan, I think more people are interested in seeing the Xtreme on the list. The Simmerlite is mentioned as an alternative if the modded Xtreme
for whatever reasons isn't going to be available.

Jim-- the modifications won't effect the function of the stove (which, stock, has a highly reliable reputation). It won't, not work. Besides, which, Ryan Jordan wants to be a guinea pig ( he's a highly experienced lab, I mean field rat)---he'll be taking some protoypes of various sorts on this trip. It's part of the fun of this whole exercise.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Windscreens/ Xtreme issues on 11/30/2005 12:56:17 MST Print View

I have .7oz to spare on a base for the windscreen to make the Ti windscreen work and still be under 5 lbs.

is .42oz the total with the windscreen and base, or yhe base alone. will work with Xtreme stove with the base?

Edited by ryanf on 11/30/2005 13:59:47 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Xtreme economy on 11/30/2005 14:12:12 MST Print View

Away for a couple of days, and look at the traffic!

Fuel consumption:
I can only report what I use. Cooking for TWO people in summer I use 30 g per day. In winter without melting snow this goes up to about 40 g per day for TWO people. Melting snow adds a bit of course, but I can't give exact figures, because sometimes I get sneaky and burrow down to a creek. It's worth the effort.

How do I get such good figures? Three things: lid on pot, windscreen around pot, and I run the stove on a medium to low setting. I am sure everyone knows about the first two factors. The windscreen actually does TWO things. It blocks the wind, which makes the stove a lot more efficient. But it also forces the hot air closer to the pot, which helps heat transfer.

I cannot emphasise enough that the third one is equally as effective. By dropping down from a flat out burn to a more gentle burn, I halve the amount of fuel used. When the stove is running flat out there is a huge amount of heat wasted up the side of the pot. OK, it heats the snow cave or tent ...

Manufacturers' claims about boil times are usually unverifiable (you can think of one notorious example quite easily!), but also totally pointless. Flames to the roof ...

But there is another factor coming in here as well. I was looking at the amount of water Ryan J was talking about per day. I forget the exact amount, but it seemed a huge amount to me. In the snow I would be using less than 3 litres per day for everything. The amount of water to be used/melted is therefore something to consider carefully. But Ryan will have to decide this one himself.

A foam pad (or lighter equivalent) under the stove AND canister is needed, but gee that could be light. 5 mm EVA 30 foam would be gallons. A bit of an old foam pad ...

What all this means is that if RJ started out with some water in his pack for the first day (and that water is NOT counted in the base weight!) then he really only needs to plan for two days of water. Now a 170 g Powermax canister would give him 85 g of fuel per day. I still say that is enough. I still say he should have some left over when he gets home. But, hmmv.


kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
re. Xtreme economy on 11/30/2005 14:38:36 MST Print View

I absolutely agree on the value of a good windscreen system ( and it's multiple role) and it's a reason I don't rely on fashioning my windsreen system exclusively by building up snow walls around the cooking area.
I can't challenge Roger's consumption figures because I don't have an Xtreme (though this will probably change). Boy, they sound good. I'm inclined to be a little conservative on the fuel amount issue because the stakes can be pretty high in Winter--particularly if a storm comes in and one is forced to wait it out.

RF, the weights are base And ti-foil screen. I'm confident about the .42 oz. figure because they were actually weighed, not conjectured.

Edited by kdesign on 11/30/2005 14:56:05 MST.

(dw586) - F
an attempt on 11/30/2005 16:04:03 MST Print View

assuming digging/constructing a snow cave, and a very well thought out clothing system worn including multiple thin base layers for swapping the bottom layer if needed to keep a dry base layer (i.e. socks and shirt, two thin wool would be my choice)

08.0 pack G5
08.0 pack

10.0 pad insul mat sl mtn mod'd (cut 20% from 12.0)
22.0 sleeping bag valandre mirage 20deg
06.3 montbell wpb bivy (+5deg)
02.5 space blanket bivy as vb liner (+5deg)
02.5 light silk bag liner (+5deg)
00.5 stuff sack
43.7 shelter/sleeping

01.5 extra socks
01.2 extra beanie
05.0 wm flight vest
07.7 extra clothing

02.5 ti stove snow peak (works down to 30deg, may have to dig a snow cave for cooking and swap canisters due to cooling as the stove is used)
02.8 titan kettle no lid
00.2 aluminum foil lid hand made
02.2 1.5L nalgene wide mouth soft sided
00.2 tough plastic spoon
01.5 redundant fire kit
00.2 windscreen
09.6 cooking (no fuel or canister incl)

01.6 scout HL
02.0 first aid
00.6 ladybug knife
05.8 handle-less shovel
00.5 essential toiletries (tp, dental)
00.5 stuff sack
11.0 other

08.0 pack
43.7 shelter+sleeping
07.7 extra clothing
09.6 kitchen (cheating slightly)
11.0 other

Edited by dw586 on 11/30/2005 16:27:32 MST.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: an attempt on 11/30/2005 17:54:52 MST Print View

I like the idea of plastic spork. My KFC spork is .1oz. what do you think guys?

what about canister stoves?
I just striped a windpro and it is 4.7oz.

anyone want to try to strip a simmerlite? it is the same design as the windpro.

ZW, your list is sooo much different than previous, so I dont know. but it is a good attempt, and I am glad to see someone else produce a sub 5 list. (even though it may not work, sorry)

Edited by ryanf on 11/30/2005 17:59:46 MST.