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Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge
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David Couch
(Davidc) - F

Locale: England
Sanitation on 11/22/2005 19:15:58 MST Print View

My last experience of winter camping was in 1951 and my memory probably rivals Paul Johnsons, so if I am being naive please tell me.

The list so far lacks any means of digging sanitary holes in frozen ground. Shouldn't it contain either a digging tool (other than merely a means of hiding beneath the snow till it melts) or an allowance for packing the residue out?


kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Time to vote/agree/propose on the Gearlist? on 11/22/2005 19:19:17 MST Print View

Ryan J.--do you want to give a deadline to the participants on this thread to wrap it up?

Do you want to offer any further feedback or send us to the showers?

Any other last minute Uber-equipment you have in the works that might be fun to bring along?

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Sanitation on 11/22/2005 19:29:26 MST Print View

>>"my memory probably rivals..."

my sincere condolences.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Time to vote/agree/propose on the Gearlist? on 11/22/2005 20:01:27 MST Print View

I think we should still go for sub 5.

here is bobs list modified

10.00 RBH Designs Proto VB Jacket
01.50 Outdoor Research PowerStretch Balaclava
03.00 Tilley LT5 (Sun hat)..........MODIFIED
03.00 Nike Spandex Running Short Tights
18.00 Arc'Teryx Gamma MX
04.00 Bozeman Mountain Works FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
01.10 PossumDown Gloves

02.00 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

Other Items Worn / Carried
00.30 Gossamer gear Sunglasses..........MODIFIED
01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCode Plus lanyard
01.30 Suunto X6
05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles

128.6 ounces
Total worn or carried 8.03 pounds

Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
00.00 Snow Cave
16.00 Arc X Quilt
04.00 Vapor NANO Bivy
03.70 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso
04.00 2 Gossamer Gear full length ThinLight 1/8" pads ..........Modified
05.75 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel
05.00 VB Pants
08.50 BMW Cocoon..........MODIFIED
06.50 Quantum shelled down Knickers..........Modified
01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
03.00 Nunatak USA Down Balaclava........MODIFIED

03.70 Gossamer Gear G6

02.45 Trangia 1 L. SaucePan
00.20 Foil lid
00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
00.30 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
01.20 Bills wood stove..........MODIFIED

02.90 Energizer LED Essentials..........MODIFIED
00.22 Photon Freedom Micro LED Light (Backup light)
01.00 Blister & minor would care supplies
00.50 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares - 1 / day
00.50 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle
01.00 Candle
00.50 Small stuff sack to organize essentials

75.62 ounces
Total Packed 4.72625 pounds

Edited by ryanf on 11/22/2005 21:27:15 MST.

David Lewis
(davidlewis) - MLife

Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
Re: Sanitation on 11/22/2005 20:38:14 MST Print View

"The list so far lacks any means of digging sanitary holes in frozen ground."

Ya... I've noticed that that is something that you never, ever, see in UL gear lists. What's the deal with that? I've always wondered.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
On UL sanitation engineering on 11/22/2005 21:17:04 MST Print View

Those of us on the UL path to enlightenment ;-)>
will often use objects at hand to dig a cat hole---rocks,cooking pots, sticks, ice axes, skis, snowshoes, hands. In the Winter in deep snow,there may be no alternative but to dig a hole in snow (contents revealed in Spring, maybe)--I do burn or carry out TP (whatever's appropriate). In other situations, terrain and snowfall may allow digging into ground (preferred).

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Gearist changes on 11/22/2005 21:23:52 MST Print View

What I changed

Tilley insted of golite cap
.3 oz sunglasses instead of .5
changed 3/4 GG thinlight 3/8" glued to oware 1/4" to two GG thinlight 1/8"
changed Coccoon Belay to Coccoon and down balaclava
changed BMW coccoon pants to Ryans 6.5oz Quantum shelled Knicker noted Here
gas stove to a wood stove
and changed headlamp to a slightly lighter lamp.

Edited by ryanf on 11/22/2005 21:25:13 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
GearLists, Gear Lists, Gear Lists on 11/22/2005 21:54:24 MST Print View

Ryan the not as old as that other Ryan--- some interesting variations. You will go far.

About that 1.2 oz. stove of Bill's. I believe that the inventer himself raised some reservations about the use of that stove on RJ's venture. I, of course, have grave doubts about using either open fires or wood stoves on this Uber-light adventure. I stated some of those objections before and won't repeat them.
I really would like to see a cooking system that more people are likely to employ ( at least out here on the Left Coast) and would be legal to use in Alpine areas in the National Parks I frequent ( such as Yosemite, King's and Sequoia). Also, a stove that can be used in enclosed (but vented) spaces like tents or vestibules or snow caves. I wouldn't use the Billstove (TM) in such places. In Winter, I find I sometimes must use a stove in those very places.

You and Bill should and ought to test this wood stove in Winter conditions and see how well it performs in melting 2-3 liters, using peices of wood that reflect real world conditions ( different species, fine and loose grained, hardwoods or conifer, wet or dry. It would be very interesting. Perhaps some of my concerns could even be rebutted.

The choice of headlamp-- If we went for a sub 1 watt led headlamp ( to save weight and have extended running times) I would opt for the Aurora or Tikka. They are considered much more reliable than the Energizer Essentials and much more water resistant. You might want to check out this review:
and check out the site"s other headlamp reviews. Craig of Flashlight Reviews is considered by many to be among the most reliable authorities on all things involving portable lighting.

The Cocoon Pullover/ Nunatak Balaclava option you put on your list is definately one to consider. If it wasn't for the intregal hood on the Belay Jacket and the eVENT outer ( which makes it a more versatile insulated jacket for the purpose) and the fact that it's inclusion on the trip will probably make us all want to buy one (is this a plus or a minus?)-- I would favor your suggestion. Sorry for the run-on sentence. Interesting what other people might favor.

Finally Ryan, I noticed on some of your postings you have used my winking ;-)> just so you know the > represents a goatee (which I sport). So unless you have one you might want to use ;-) or even ; ) --I have a very long nose. ;-)>

cheers. Kevin

Edited by kdesign on 11/22/2005 22:34:50 MST.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: GearLists, Gear Lists, Gear Lists on 11/23/2005 06:29:26 MST Print View

I guess you guys are really pushing for 6# winter SUL. I dont know, I guess its fine, but I would rather see a sub 5# load.
I understand your reasoning, but I dont think this was the initial goal when Carol started this thread

Bob Gabbart
(bobg) - F
2x1/8" = 1/4" = leggcicles on 11/23/2005 09:36:08 MST Print View


Lots of interesting options. With regard to the pads, I don't think the 2x1/8" pads are going to work. In an earlier post RJ said that the 3/8" pad under his legs would not be enough and suggested adding the glued 1/4" pad to the 3/8" pad in the section not covered by the Nightlight Torso. Replacing that setup with 2x1/8" pads would not be as warm as the 3/8" pad alone that he said was not warm enough.

With regard to the 5# vs. 6#. The weight cutoff is arbitrary. I don't see any problem with us redefining was SUL for winter is. Winter camping is a different mindset and therefore I belive deserves a different interpretation of SUL.

Edited by bobg on 11/23/2005 09:39:14 MST.

R Alsborg
(FastWalker) - MLife

Locale: Southwest
Re: 2x1/8" = 1/4" = leggcicles on 11/23/2005 09:41:01 MST Print View


SUL being 5lbs or less… Fine for 3 season but don’t you believe there should be some allowance for winter backpacking? Would it help to think of this as WSUL: Winter Super ultra Light

Bobs compiled list is pretty minimal as it is. To error in judgment over a few ounces will be an unwise considering the consequences. I truly doubt that not to many of us would want to deal with the conditions RyanJ will have to with the 5lbs or less assigned equipment.

I don’t think the point of this exercise wasn’t meant to just suffer and survive, but to be safe and comfortable carrying the least amount of weight.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Re: 2x1/8" = 1/4" = leggcicles on 11/23/2005 09:51:56 MST Print View

about the pads being minimal, this my be true but I saw this page and it shows Ryan using a 1/4" pad ang GG pad in winter so I thought...

I totaly agree with the 6# SUL winter definition, but all I am saying, and I dont mean to argue, is that the challenge was sub 5 according to the first post in this thread. I myself would go sub 5 in the winter if I had the money to purchase the gear, but this may be because I have a high metabolisim, and can sleep cold. I dont mean to be a pain in the butt, but I just dont want to settle for something, when it is not quite what Ryan wanted.

Edited by ryanf on 11/23/2005 09:54:54 MST.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
The north face met 5 jacket on 11/23/2005 10:02:58 MST Print View

just another option, looks great and may eliminate theneed for other layers. probably an item worn.
The north face met 5 jacket

Edited by ryanf on 11/23/2005 10:03:50 MST.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
5lb WSUL on 11/23/2005 11:24:49 MST Print View

this process has been taking a lot longer than i thought that it would (that's not necessarily a bad thing - i'm very impressed with the knowledge and ingenuity of the main gear-selection participants).

but, i'm wonderin' if Dr. J already has a sub-5lb kit for winter? maybe he could post all the possible gear he'd like to take and then y'all could pick the gear off the list and also substitute other equivalent items he'd be able to obtain, so that others can attempt a similar adventure.

the reasoning is as follows: Dr. J knows what gear he needs to succeed in this challenge. his choices cover all of his and our concerns for proper warmth, etc. y'all still get to pick from a list and even substitute. this might be the only way we keep Dr. J warm and healthy and break a 5lb WSUL barrier???

just a thought. feel free to object.

Edited by pj on 11/23/2005 12:51:29 MST.

Bob Gabbart
(bobg) - F
Pad setup in picture on 11/23/2005 11:33:02 MST Print View

Ryan, the pad setup in that picture has the 1/4" 3/4 length pad and ~1/4" pad from his backpack giving him about 1/2" under his legs. The two 1/8" pads would only give him half that.


John S.
(jshann) - F
Kevin on 11/23/2005 11:53:04 MST Print View

Sorry to reply late to you. I had not gone back through to figure out what sleeping gear was decided on. It looks like a couple others are carrying onward. Happy Thanksgiving to all!

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
re.5lb WSUL on 11/23/2005 12:27:42 MST Print View

Ahhh--the old Chinese restaurant- one from column "A", 2 from column "B" approach.

I think ol' Ryan has subtlely done some of what you suggest throughout the history of this thread ( and a good thing, too).

I do wish there would be a deadline date for this project. It would motivate anyone else out there to come forward who might have final or new thoughts. I also think perhaps the current participants have almost taken this as far as possible as a "groupthink" process.

And a good Thanksgiving to you, John, Paul, Bob G,
both Ryans and all.

Edited by kdesign on 11/23/2005 12:31:43 MST.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: re.5lb WSUL on 11/23/2005 12:52:38 MST Print View

thanks Kevin. same to you and yours. a deadline would be good - 2nd that.

maybe the "pick" approach isn't a good idea. guess maybe this sounds too much like a bunch of young girls playing and dressing up a doll. now there's a thought: a Dr. J Action Figure (we don't want to be calling him a "doll") complete with Tilley Hat. Just in time for the December holidays too. GI Joe, move over!!! There's a new "bad boy" on the block. y'know, i might actually buy one and put it on the bookshelf right next to my "Tweetie" Pez dispenser. it's gotta' have a tilley, stixPro, G6 with a flyrod strapped to the side, gaiters, trail runners, the whole 9 yards though.

wouldn't be surprised if we saw them for sale soon in the BPL Gear Shop...and, next year a 5lb WSUL version of the Dr. J Action Figure. i want to be the first kid on my block to collect them all.

Edited by pj on 11/23/2005 13:59:26 MST.

Bob Gabbart
(bobg) - F
self set deadline on 11/23/2005 12:54:07 MST Print View

And a good Thanksgiving to all you as well. I've enjoyed this discussion.

If we can not agree on a list, maybe we can agree on a deadline. How about we agree to agree on a list by Dec 7. That's 2 weeks.


paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: self set deadline on 11/23/2005 12:56:51 MST Print View

Dec. 7th. - hopefully, not another day that will live in infamy. well, maybe only from the big Gear Companies' point of view.