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Carol Crooker
(cmcrooker) - MLife

Locale: Desert Southwest, USA
Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge on 10/19/2005 11:29:45 MDT Print View

Hi all,
So, our illustrious publisher and certified nut, Ryan Jordan, and I were chatting about the SUL challenge. He came up with this idea with no help from me...

You all choose his SUL gear list for WINTER backpacking - we're talking sub 5# and real Montana winter - and he'll take exactly that gear out...in Montana...in the winter. He'll report back, IF he survives. We want him to survive, so really put some thought into this!

Edited by cmcrooker on 10/19/2005 11:30:28 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
re.Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge on 10/19/2005 11:38:16 MDT Print View

can we make him just a little uncomfortable?

furthermore,I propose that Dr. Jordan use a list solely derived from the equipment that is available (or will be) on his website. We call this being potentially hoisted by his own petard. ;-)

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: re.Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge on 10/19/2005 11:54:56 MDT Print View

I'm game for anything. Here's the gig.

Deep snow.
Low temps near zero.
High temps subfreezing.
Above treeline.
Winter storm conditions.

No equipment restrictions. Y'all pick my gear & clothing FSO. I choose my food, but you tell me how many oz/day.

"Go!"

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge on 10/19/2005 13:02:19 MDT Print View

How many days out ?

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge on 10/19/2005 13:07:59 MDT Print View

>> How many days out?

Let's plan for 3. Short enough to represent the typical weekend getaway but more than an overnight so you have to think a little harder about keeping your gear dry etc.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: re.Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge on 10/19/2005 13:36:26 MDT Print View

Kevin,

good idea. would speak well for BPL/BMW gear. however, doesn't he need something for his feet other than Poss'mDown socks?


Dr. J,

you're simply amazing. hope someone is going with you - just in case. your "fans"/disciples may decide to skimp in the warmth dept. when they select your gear.

i'll suggest 24oz to 32oz of food - your choice b/t those two values, plus anything you need to obtain your own wild food - if you so desire.

also, you should be able to descend below tree line for fuel if you need to build a fire for survival or to ward off frostbite.

i'll leave the remainder of your gear to those out West who understand the conditions you'll find yourself in.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Re: re.Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge on 10/19/2005 13:53:14 MDT Print View

>> hope someone is going with you - just in case. your "fans"/disciples may decide to skimp in the warmth dept. when they select your gear.

So be it. This will be solo. Not for the purpose of aggrandizing the 'event' but to maintain the reality and authenticity of the situation.

BTW I will be taking photo gear and a tiny journal/pen to document, so I guess those items are nonnegotiable.

>> i'll suggest 24oz to 32oz of food - your choice b/t those two values, plus anything you need to obtain your own wild food - if you so desire.

Wild food. You're funny. Snowshoe hares?

>> also, you should be able to descend below tree line for fuel if you need to build a fire for survival or to ward off frostbite.

I'm a competent cookfire builder. If y'all decide for me to ditch the stove, I would do that, you know, for the purposes of ... research :)

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
the good Doctor's challenge on 10/19/2005 13:55:03 MDT Print View

My 1st rough,off the top of my head attempt at a winter SUL list came out to almost 8 lbs. This will be a challenge, indeed.

I'm not counting weight of transportation-- I assume skis or snowshoes, which would be worn except for (hopefully) short stretches. This does imply a pack robust enough to strap them on. A snow shovel would be included--I have a 5.75 oz. one in mind.
Above timberline---an Ice Axe I usually would have because I would want to do some ascents ( but I'm in the Pacific NW). No climbing or icy cols?
Weight ,weight, weight.

Alcohol Stove--is there one capable of melting sufficient snow in these conditions? I have no personal experience,here. I would be carrying a canister stove but that, too, will push the weight too high. I hate fussing with fires for cooking in Winter. And above timberline, use of wood is not really kosher.

Edited by kdesign on 10/19/2005 15:05:45 MDT.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Re: Re: re.Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge on 10/19/2005 14:01:43 MDT Print View

>>"You're funny"

thought you would be astute enough to get it - slim pickens.

Edited by pj on 10/19/2005 14:04:36 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Winter SUL Gear List on 10/19/2005 15:11:58 MDT Print View

Last updated to change Nalgene cantene size, cookpot, and sleep headwear.

Total- 79.2 oz (4.95 pounds)

Pack - Shelter - Sleeping
03.7 G6 Whisper
00.0 Snowcave
05.4 Snowclaw
15.2 Arc alpinist X
04.0 Vapor nano bivy
02.0 Nano sleeping bag VB liner
00.5 Spinnsack for sleep gear
03.0 GG nightlight torso length cut down
05.0 GG thinlight 3/8" cut down
-------------
38.8

Other Clothing
10.5 WM flight jacket
04.0 Vapor mitts
01.8 Possum down socks
03.0 Nunatak down balaclava (The Brain Furnace)
-------------
19.3

Cooking - Water
02.7 Coleman exponent F1 ultralight
04.6 Evernew titanium pot, 1.3L
00.4 Mini spork
01.0 Bic lighter/storm matches in aloksak
04.0 Nalgene wide-mouth cantenes, 32 oz. (2)
00.2 Plastic grocery bag food storage
-------------
12.9

Miscellaneous Items
01.0 Map
03.7 Princeton tec eos
01.0 First aid
00.5 Sunscreen
02.0 Toiletries in aloksak
-------------
08.2

Consumables
Food 32 oz/day

Edited by jshann on 11/03/2005 07:53:36 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Ryan's winter list on 10/19/2005 15:44:13 MDT Print View

I don't think Ryan will be warm enough, John.
Give him a balaclava , wind pro top and bottom with good dwr or w/b, another layer in addition to the Cocoon Pullover or something warmer in a jacket.

You can't always count on being able to dig a snow cave due to time or conditions, but one should be capable of digging out one, when possible---the
Snowclaw is what i was thinking of, too.

Unless he can dig a snowcave, I don't think that the
Arc X w/ insulated clothing will be warm enough if he is forced to do the bivy/tarp combo.

17 oz./day of food in winter is probably not going to provide our guinea pig with enough calories--- he'll be peeling bark from trees,looking for bugs by the third day.

I don't think that the G6 will provide enough volume for this particular winter load.

I think that Ryan had mentioned that the Nano-bivy would come out at around 4 oz.

Edited by kdesign on 10/19/2005 15:48:55 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Ryan's winter list on 10/19/2005 15:47:37 MDT Print View

He's wearing all that. This is a base weight that will only contain clothing not worn but it still may not be enough..lol. I eat the same amount in winter as I do in summer with no ill effects, and Ryan is in better shape than me. On Ryan's last trip he had 17 oz/day.

Edited by jshann on 10/19/2005 16:44:53 MDT.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: A start on 10/19/2005 16:41:58 MDT Print View

John,

17oz/day? do you think that's enough - esp in winter? it's gonna' be a might cold, right? it's not like the good Doc is packing on the blubber in preparation for winter. where will the req'd calories come from?

really? the same amt in winter as summer? not my experience. do other Forum participants have the same experience as John? or, is John's experience atypical?

i still vote for 24oz to 32oz per day (Dr. J's choice - hope he picks 32oz/day).



so, Dr. J, how many oz/day do you feel that you need for winter? [remember, no food caching ahead time]

Edited by pj on 10/19/2005 16:48:33 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Ryan's winter list is morphing before my eyes on 10/19/2005 16:54:52 MDT Print View

Noticed some changes.

Vapor mitts would be an excellant addition and should be counted as carried weight ( not always worn).
Sunglasses or goggles --some of the better designed sportsglasses will offer almost the coverage of goggles,weigh less and fog up less. I've used them in such conditions. If he's rondennee skiing then I'd opt for the goggles.
An extra pair of sox (non-sleeping) is needed.

He will need a warmer bag---some of his worn clothing will be wet and he will need more of a margin to help dry them out w/o giving him hypothermia.

I still question the food amount-- late spring thru early fall, I eat something like 14-17 oz./day but in sub freezing conditions pushing down towards zero, my intake quickly goes up to at least 25-26 oz. and am happier w/ more.

That Whisper will not be happy schlepping skis or snowshoes ( which I assume will be used). And there is the volume question. A semi-custom G5 from Gossamer Gear might be a better choice in winter. It would have a 3+ oz. weight penalty while offering another 1000 cu. in. of space---wet items of clothing also take up more space.

The sleep pads and tarp/bivy are dialed in. As well as most of the miss. items.

Edited by kdesign on 10/19/2005 16:56:25 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Food for: Ryan' Winter SUL hikes on 10/19/2005 18:14:24 MDT Print View

I can get 2700 calories in 17oz. I was able to get 10 days worth of powder Ensure so I can try my first hike in over a year. I will do half the Smokies south to Fontana Dam and then on South on the AT to Dicks Creek Gap. I am hoping for some snow. The powder Ensure is 1750 calories dry at about 11oz or so per can. I estamate the empty can at 3oz (a full can is 14oz). It is mixed 1/2 cup per 8oz of water. This stuff is a "Complete, Balanced Nutrition(R) to help stay healthy, active and energetic" and tasty, yea, sure.

I have been on liquid diet for about 8 months and expect to be on it till about March 2006. I do eat a little other food, soft stuff like ice cream, ice cream and ice cream. The pre-mixed liquid stuff I have every day (2100) min calories per day at 500 calories per 8.45 FL-OZ per can is OK but a can weights 11.5oz. I do add a lot of different things to the stuff to make it taste better. The cans are just to heavy to carry 3 or 4 days worth at a time. Then I also would have a bunch of empty can to carry out. I thought about making small alcohol stoves out of the cans and leaving them along the trail like trail majic.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
saving Dr. Ryan on 10/19/2005 18:33:53 MDT Print View

Yeeuch!
Now,we wanna torture Ryan? If it's not enough that we'll be sending him into the cold, underequipped,
he can't even have a tasty, solid meal. Even the condemned of ages past got bread and water. Now there's a thought----muwa ha ha ha!

I like the magic alcohol stove idea, though.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
ultimate winter UL list on 10/19/2005 18:48:53 MDT Print View

(1) Armalite AR-7 survival rifle ---------40 oz.
25 rounds of .22 long ammo @2.56 g.ea=2.25 oz.
base weight = 42.25 oz.

idea is to kill an Elk and crawl into the warm, steaming ( and somewhat odiferous) carcass for warmth. Got your protein handy, too. Blood for liquid nourishment. Excellant wind pro and if you get out alive you can walk out with the makings of a fine elkskin coat (referees--- does this count against the base weight?

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
John Shannon's winter UL list of death on 10/19/2005 19:12:21 MDT Print View

Looking better---it will only work if he can dig out snowcaves or pits or possibly if nights are still. I think that an overfilled Arc Alpinist would do it, at an added weight of 4 oz. ( get him 3"+ of loft). Ryan still needs at least another pair of sox. Really.
Or you'll be answeringto his family.

If you diregard this sage advice, if you get rid of the goggles and 1 oz. of map weight , Ryan can at least graduate to the larger G5 w/ no weight penalty.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Winter SUL on 10/19/2005 19:56:22 MDT Print View

Some framework as you continue on:

I can cave or trench to get out of the wind. A cave with a snowclaw takes me 45 minutes to dig, a trench about 25. I can do fine at zero degrees outside in a 20 degree clothing/sleep system in a cave. But if in a trench, I'll need a tarp for the top and a sleep/clothing system rated for the ambient temp.

Also, you choose the mode of travel: skis, snowshoes, shoes, whatever. Depends on how far you want me to travel. With skis I can hike uphill nonstop for two days and be down to the car in 20 minutes ;). With snowshoes you can't travel as fast. With shoes, your FSO weight is minimized but will motivate me to travel along rock ridges rather than snowy bowls! Options, options. It's so nice not to have to worry about it for once :)

larry savage
(pyeyo) - F

Locale: pacific northwest
Re: Winter SUL on 10/19/2005 20:37:04 MDT Print View

Just remember to take those items on jesus's 1# gear list and don't freeze them, the thawing process can really be painful.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Winter SUL on 10/19/2005 22:09:50 MDT Print View

My two cents...

1) As I read this, all the insulation on John's list is Down. Anybody else worried about moisture accumulation in the snow cave?

2) Clothing worn hasn't been discussed yet, but I'd recommend a hooded shell to use in conjunction with the PossumDown beanie for sleeping. In keeping with the SUL theme, I'd suggest a Marmot Ion windshirt. (Quantum, 3oz.)

3) John, it looks like you're updating your list to incorporate other posters' feedback -- a nice way to keep things concise. However, please consider striking out items (perhaps by enclosing them in square brackets or something), rather than deleting them. It might make following the thread easier. [thanks]

4) Should we include the empty fuel canister in our base weight?

Edited by MikeMartin on 10/19/2005 22:25:05 MDT.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Ryan's winter list is morphing before my eyes on 10/19/2005 22:21:20 MDT Print View

Kevin Davidson writes:

>> Sunglasses or goggles --some of the better designed sportsglasses will offer almost the coverage of goggles,weigh less and fog up less. I've used them in such conditions.

I agree. How about Panoptyx. They are a hybrid goggle/sunglasses that I think weigh less than 2oz. Plus, we could probably justify moving them from the "carried" to the "worn" column and eliminate them from our base weight.

Edited by MikeMartin on 10/19/2005 22:35:46 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Winter Gear List of Death on 10/19/2005 22:31:08 MDT Print View

I second Michael M.'s suggestion about making changes on the gear list clear, John.

Your list has been handy to bounce ideas off of in the course of continuing to refine things.

Eyewear counts as worn, not carried.

I would suggest that Ryan carry some form of minimalist snowshoes ---like Crescent Moon Gold
12's (@ under 3 lbs.)or Northern Lights Quicksilver 25's (2.5 lbs). We don't want him to get off too easy by letting him ski back home in less time than the typical commute, but we don't want Ryan sinking out of sight,either. These shoes should allow efficient travel in all but the softest,deepest snow and encourage him to diversify his route by hitting those rocky ridges. He should demonstrate that it is possible to carry his snowshoes as a part of his UL kit ( even if that requires modifying a SUL pack to do so). Finally, the snowshoes can double as snow anchors for his tarp.
Because he mostly would be wearing the snowshoes, it should not count towards base weight.

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 00:36:30 MDT.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Winter SUL on 10/20/2005 01:51:22 MDT Print View

we should alert the media about this. perhaps the fellow from "Wild America" (i forget his name - marty stouffer??? or something like that). i'd like to see a Documentary on Dr. J's SUL Winter Trek of "Death". (no...not that i want or expect that, i.e. "death", it's just for the media "hype" - you know, like the old time escape artists. the possibility of "death" seems to make it more captivating for some).

oh...BTW...Vegas already has a "line". i'm sure the odds will change as the GearList shapes up and is finalized.

Edited by pj on 10/20/2005 04:02:41 MDT.

Courtney Waal
(d0rqums) - F
Re: Winter SUL on 10/20/2005 02:54:11 MDT Print View

I'm not that familiar with carrying snowshoes, but would it be possible to take a pack out of light fabric (such as the G5 or G6) and rig a snowshoe harness of webbing or tougher fabric over the main pack body and anchored to the shoulder straps rather than having the pack fabric be heavier? It would also be kind of neat to see a backpack with the pack body lined with synthetic insulation as both a way to insulate gear like water bottles and so that you could use it as an overbag for your legs at night, since you'll probably be using the back of the pack as a pad anyway.

Mister Ryan, you aren't allowed to freeze at least until the nano tarps are shipped! I'm going to suggest a family recipe to help you put on some padding before your adventure:

Preheat oven to 425. Mix two eggs and 1 cup milk in a shallow bowl. Fill another bowl with dry (flaky) flour dough or breadcrumbs. Coat chicken pieces in the milk and egg first and then the bread and allow to dry for an hour on a rack. Generously apply butter to the bottom of a casserole pan and place a layer of chicken followed by pats of butter. Continue layering until casserole is full, coating the chicken in pats of butter. If you haven't used two sticks of butter yet, go back and fix it. Cook for 60-90 minutes or until internal temperature is 165 F. Serve with butter and mashed potatoes (made with butter).

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: Winter SUL on 10/20/2005 03:02:10 MDT Print View

Thanks for the feedback. I will try to do that or put update notes on the bottom of the post. I did have the cocoon pullover and pants listed, but I am not sure what would need to be removed to make that work. Do feel free to cut/paste my list and make any changes you are interested in to see if it can work.

The JRB weather shield top with polycro groundsheet could replace the bivy and maybe give more sleeping bag water resistance. That may be difficult to stay in place over the sleeping bag though.

Edited by jshann on 10/20/2005 03:12:40 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Winter SUL Gladiator Kit ( home assembly required) on 10/20/2005 08:37:52 MDT Print View

I would keep the bivy because it has a more unified integrity than the seperate sheets you are proposing. Quantum is amazingly water resistant.

Also, we need a few BMW products for Ryan to carry. Promotional, you know? Ryan's got a family to feed.

Another thing, these will be ideal conditions for VBL clothing which could be another means of cutting weight. In fact, I think an Arc X could be used after all if VBL is worn at night or a VBL bag liner is used.

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 08:41:09 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Winter SUL Gladiator Kit ( home assembly required) on 10/20/2005 11:21:17 MDT Print View

Vapor barrier clothing made from cuben fabric would be the ticket. An entire suit or bag may weigh around 3-4 oz. I'm guessing

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge on 10/20/2005 11:47:31 MDT Print View

Just wondering out loud... is this Carol's sinister plot to rid herself of RJ?

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Winter SUL Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 12:13:02 MDT Print View

John Shannon writes:

>> Vapor barrier clothing made from cuben fabric would be the ticket. An entire suit or bag may weigh around 3-4 oz. I'm guessing.

Now we're talking! Great idea, John. A suit would allow easy use of his warm clothing in the sleep system, but if we went the bag liner route, he could still drape the WM flight jacket over the top of the VBL.

Maybe we could coax Bill Fornshell to volunteer to make Ryan a Cuben VBL suit... <g>

If not, an even lighter alternative would be one of those mylar space bags for a VBL at 2.6oz.

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/05/2005 17:20:18 MST.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Winter Gladiator Kit ( home assembly required) on 10/20/2005 12:33:08 MDT Print View

John --please take off the googles and substitute the glasses---it will work. I like the idea of a Cuben VBL top/bottom combo or a cuben VBL liner---weight would trade across the board ( infact, it could come in lighter)
----unless Ryan rules that previously unmade custom equipment is not allowed for purposes of this game.

We should decide on his mode of travel,gang. See my earlier post advocating snowshoes (and why)

Finally, we should pay attention to the clothing he will be wearing (not counted towards base weight)
I would suggest for starters the following:

Topside--- Icebreaker Bodyfit 260 L/S Tech Top ( about 12 oz. med.)
---Golite Momentum Softshell (12 oz. M)
---ID eVENT Jacket (W/B layer) -- oversized
to size large (9.5 oz. )
--- Gloves (possum wool)---(1.8 oz.)
--- Overmitts ( BMW Vapor Mitts @ 4 oz.)
---Balaclava-Golite CTE (2.5Oz.)

Bottoms--- synthetic baselayer - Golite LW C-Thru
Tights (4 oz.)
--- softshell pant-Golite Propel (10 oz.)
--- W/B hardshell pant-ID eVENT pant
(10 oz.)
I don't strongly advocate specific makes above so
change away.

But, what am I anyway,his mother? I feel I'm dressing him too warmly. I would subtract a layer here,a layer there, for myself. I get all parental when I suggest clothing for other people.

Also, throw in a Photon Freedom light on a string for backup and a Suunto X6 or S6 altimeter watch.

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 13:12:32 MDT.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Winter Gladiator Kit ( home assembly required) on 10/20/2005 13:28:51 MDT Print View

Nice clothing list, Kevin.

Since the whole trip is supposed to be sub-freezing, I suggest ditching the eVent stuff, although he'll still need something else (with a hood) on top.

Also, I believe the Golite Propel pants have a powerstretch backside. I'd suggest something w/ better weather protection like Arcteryx Gamma MX, or some Dryskin pants.

How do you feel about Panoptyx sunglasses?

Snowshoes work for me. They're lighter than a ski setup anyway. I've heard good things about Northern Lights (sp?), but haven't used them personally.

Edited by MikeMartin on 10/20/2005 13:31:20 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Saving Dr. Ryan w/ comfort and style on 10/20/2005 13:58:42 MDT Print View

The Panoptyx would work well.
MM--
As to the eVENT layer, I think W/B hardshells have a place in these temps. as a means of additional low bulk/weight warmth. If you ever dig out a snowcave, one really appreciates the value of a hardshell to keep you dry.

Gamma MX or dryskin works for me as would Beyond Fleece's Cold Fusion or Vayu Pants (using Schoeller's WB-400 softshell material).

Snowshoes--Snowshoes--Snowshoes

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 14:00:44 MDT.

J R
(RavenUL) - F
Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 14:01:05 MDT Print View

Maybe it might be more efficient to decide on a packing checklist first.

Rather than worry about individual items and their weights, figure out what general items need to get packed and then find the lightest specific items to fit the need.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
JR Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 14:12:20 MDT Print View

Would you care to generate one?
I'm not feeling quite lucid enough. I've spent much of the a.m. in a spray booth---lacquer.

Like...far out, mannn...

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 14:50:23 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
VBL and Ryan's Trek on 10/20/2005 14:24:14 MDT Print View

Don't be so persumptuous to think a VBL suit hasn't been though about. I expect one day soon you will see all soft goods made out of Cuben material to test to see how/if it will work. I am working on a pair of pants at this time but I want to put full side zips on it. I have some light YKK 2-way separating zippers 26" long but want some 35" long. I am on hold waiting for a phone call to see if I can get them. They would be #3 coil YKK zippers. Very light. The 26" zippers that I have weigh 10 grams. I am also waiting on some shorter zippers same kind but 14" long to put on the sides of a shirt. I will use the 26" zippers on the pants if it will take awhile to get the 35" zippers. I want to try the shirt and pants out on a hike that will start the week before Christmas.

My plan is to start at Newfound Gap and take the AT south back to Fontana Dam. Adjust my gear as necessary and continue south on the AT to Dicks Creek Gap. I am hoping to see some snow.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Update on 10/20/2005 14:36:47 MDT Print View

At Kevin's request, gear list updated to remove goggles and replace with sportsglasses.

Edited by jshann on 10/20/2005 14:39:05 MDT.

J R
(RavenUL) - F
Re: JR Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 14:46:58 MDT Print View

"Would you care to generate one? "

Nope.
I just find that its often easiest to sort out the abstract then worry about the details.

Bob Gabbart
(bobg) - F
abstract SUL winter list on 10/20/2005 14:53:29 MDT Print View

I agree with Joe Robbins. You guys should first sort out an abstract SUL winter list without worry about specifc brands/models. Then once the abstract list is agreed to, go back and decide on the specific brand/model.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
JR Winter Gladiator Kit 2 on 10/20/2005 14:53:43 MDT Print View

Well, Joe--- those who do the work decide.

I think that we just will have to play off of John's
base weight list and my stuff worn list until someone else steps in.

How about you, Bob G?
It is a good idea.

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 15:10:01 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: JR Winter Gladiator Kit 2 on 10/20/2005 15:01:20 MDT Print View

With that last change and removal from the base weight, we have nearly 5 ounces to do something else with. Kevin's space blanket bag might be in order for a cheap, light vbl.

Edited by jshann on 10/20/2005 15:01:52 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Winter Gladiator Kit 3 on 10/20/2005 15:08:54 MDT Print View

my space blanket bag? But let's add a VBL liner (whether mylar or cuben) to the list, anyway(say 2 -2 1/2 oz.).Map is an oz. too heavy--1 will do. Still need those xtra sox.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Winter Gladiator Kit 3 on 10/20/2005 15:21:03 MDT Print View

Ooops that was Michael that mentioned the vbl space bag like this

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/amk_emergency_sleeping_bag.html

It is interesting that in Ryan's Winter gearlist he doesn't mention an additional pair of socks, but we can surely add them.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00277.html

J R
(RavenUL) - F
Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 15:26:09 MDT Print View

It was just an idea Kev... Im not interested in deciding anything for anyone but me.





I dont need the karma of a jordansicle.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
To JS/ Winter Gladiator Kit 3 on 10/20/2005 15:33:25 MDT Print View

I think the mylar bag is the one--2 1/2 oz. and BPL sells it.
I know about that list and I think that Ryan spaced it on the sox. He also apparently thought that a synthetic bag was more appropriate to snowcave living at that time. I think that for 2-3 nights that he can get away w/ down---especially using a VBL
and the other creature comforts that we're giving him on the gear list.

He should have a candle--great for warming up a snow cave ( if properly constructed for ventilation) if used carefully.

I expect Ryan to carve out a raised sleeping platform and shelves (note:please document, Ryan)
-- we want him to live in the style that he is accustomed to as the Martha Stewart of UL Backpacking.

Joe, don't get so familiar-- that's Herr Professor Doktor Davidson, to you. :-P

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 15:37:04 MDT.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 15:34:49 MDT Print View

The idea of this exercise is that you guys not add all this extraneous stuff, so that skills / techniques can replace some reliance on gear... ;) I do appreciate the extra socks, but if it came right down to it, I do reserve the right to ditch (but not add) gear at the car.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 15:41:14 MDT Print View

OK Ryan--- how about my 2 1/2 # list of earlier?
Total reliance on skill and technique.

How about one little hint of what feels extraneous to you.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 15:49:00 MDT Print View

>> How about one little hint of what feels extraneous to you.

Clothing I can't wear or sleep in at any time. In other words, if the clothing is there as an "extra", then I'd like the flexibility to BOTH wear AND sleep in it.

A waterproof shelter? I mean, shouldn't it be cold enough that dry snow just sort of falls off it ;)

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit on 10/20/2005 16:03:20 MDT Print View

I recomend bringing a G5 instead of a G6, using a arc alpinist instead of an arc X, bringing Coccon pants, mitts, and jacket, cooking over fires to save weight and to provide extra warmth wile around camp, using a mont bell breeze dry tec cover because it provides a little more warmth and is fully waterproof just in case Ryan cannot build a snow cave it provides more weather protection than a vapor bivy, also add a space blanket ground cloth to provide extra warmth to the sleep system and to use in an emergencey (down bag looses loft) for sun glasses check out the ones on the gossamer gear website and by the way bring extra socks

Ryan Faulkner
(not Ryan Jordan)

(P.S. I always bring a space blanket in the winter because it dose add some warmth to my sleep system as a ground cloth and I feel a litle more secure with my down bag knowing I have one. I think 2oz is worth it)

Edited by ryanf on 10/20/2005 16:31:05 MDT.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Gossamer Gear sun glasses on 10/20/2005 16:13:15 MDT Print View

check thease out for ultralight sun glasses

http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/Sport_Eyz.html

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 57 on 10/20/2005 16:13:29 MDT Print View

Who said anything about a waterproof shelter? I'm missing something here. I thought we were only tossing in a nano tarp and bivy.

Double duty clothing for sleeping---micropore rainsuit--you can dig out a snowcave or trench with it. You could use it to sleep in if you shake the snow and perspiration off of it---it would be a quasi-VBL as it is a W/B--- more warmth anyway if necessary. Ditto an eVENT suit --more durable,comfortable and heavy.

Glad you appreciate a 2nd pair of sox.

Yep, Ryan F. --they would probably work,too and lighter---but I have no personal experience with them. I trust they are optically perfect.

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 16:16:06 MDT.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 57 on 10/20/2005 16:21:45 MDT Print View

**A waterproof shelter? I mean, shouldn't it be cold enough that dry snow just sort of falls off it**
In Virginia the snow is always wet so I guess You may not need the extra few ounces on the mont bell bivy like I would if the snow out there is dry :)

Edited by ryanf on 10/20/2005 16:24:14 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Gossamer Gear SUL Sun Glasses on 10/20/2005 16:27:19 MDT Print View

Ryan Faulkner said:
(ryanf ) SUBJECT NEW Gossamer Gear sun glasses ON 10/20/2005 16:13:15 MDT POST REPLY
check thease out for ultralight sun glasses

http://www.gossamergear.com/cgi-bin/gossamergear/Sport_Eyz.html

Ryan, I have a pair. They are OK. I reduced the weight of my pair to 0.25oz by changing the heavy cord lock that came on it with a mini-cord lock from Thru-Hiker.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 57 on 10/20/2005 16:45:49 MDT Print View

Kevin D. writes:

>> Who said anything about a waterproof shelter? I'm missing something here. I thought we were only tossing in a nano tarp and bivy.

Has the tarp been ditched? I don't see it on John's current gear list.

Philosophically, I think we *need* to do the snow cave thing anyway. A tarp adds weight, requires a warmer sleep system, and requires less skill from our guinea pig...err, fearless leader.

J R
(RavenUL) - F
Re: To JS/ Winter Gladiator Kit 3 on 10/20/2005 17:01:06 MDT Print View

"that's Herr Professor Doktor Davidson, to you"

Jawohl!

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 58 on 10/20/2005 17:14:12 MDT Print View

So be it--- no tarp. He has to dig out a snowcave or die. We could ditch the minimalist snow shovel, too, and Ryan can dig out his shelter w/ his cooking pot (seriously--doable, I've done it---didn't like it).
It means no snow trench,though--nothing to cover the top in storm conditions.

With a down bag for even a short trip, a snowcave can get humid--I don't care how dry the snow is--it does, Dr. Jordan should have some sort of a cover over his bag so I still say nano bivy. It would be hard to beat 4 oz. for any such rig.

So, we can save another 9 oz. or so w/ these deletions.

Ryan Faulkner
(ryanf) - F

Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
Re: Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 58 on 10/20/2005 17:18:07 MDT Print View

Kevin may be right about tarps
mabey a cuben tarp will do the trick

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Ryan/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 58 on 10/20/2005 18:54:28 MDT Print View

Kevin D. writes:

>> With a down bag for even a short trip, a snowcave can get humid--I don't care how dry the snow is--it does, Dr. Jordan should have some sort of a cover over his bag so I still say nano bivy. It would be hard to beat 4 oz. for any such rig.

I agree. I think the following sleep system would be pretty darn light and still keep Ryan ticking, if not smiling:


Dedicated Sleep Gear:

Snowcave
Arc alpinist X
Vapor nano bivy
GG nightlight torso length cut down
GG thinlight 3/8" cut down
Space Bag VBL (or suit, see below)
-----------------
Multi-Use Sleep Gear:

PossumDown Beanie
Hooded shell of some kind
WM flight jacket -- draped (or worn if suit used) outside VB
Cuben VB Suit (if VBL not used, above)
Mitts
Socks
Light Balaclava
Usual clothing worn
Snowclaw shovel


On the tarp subject once more, is a micro-light tarp out of nano or cuben fabric really useful in winter storm conditions with high winds and snow loads?

Edited by MikeMartin on 10/20/2005 20:49:24 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
MM/Winter Gladiator Kit/ take 58 on 10/20/2005 22:17:33 MDT Print View

MM asks "On the tarp subject once more, is a micro-light tarp out of nano or cuben fabric really useful in winter storm conditions with high winds and snow loads?"

----- I believe that Nano is Cuben (or something very similar.
I've used a silnylon tarp in conditions of high winds
and once w/ significant snowloads. With wind it depends on siting and pitch configuration but is
quite possible. We are not talking about ridgetop
mountaineering situations---there is a place afterall for bomber tents. Snowloads---well, you gotta wake up and deal, sometimes often---it can be a sleepless night. I have recently picked up a MLD spin tarp which will pitch much tighter and stretch less than the old one, so I'm even more confident of wind/snowload survival.

I do like snowcaves when possible--nothing warmer in the wilderness in Winter--but I do prefer
to share the labor of constructing one.

The sleep system you propose is good except I think we need to multi-task the VBL component.
Perhaps use a non-breathable hardshell or go for a non- VBL system that will still provide significant added warmth -- a W/B hardshell -- Micropore suit
or a more durable jacket/pant in eVENT or even Epic. All of these solutions would of course double as the outer shell of a clothing system for wind pro and added warmth.

Edited by kdesign on 10/20/2005 23:02:44 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
VB Clothing on 10/20/2005 22:57:18 MDT Print View

I looked at the RBH web site. They have a few "testimonials" one from Rocky Reifenstuhl of Fairbanks, Alaska:
"The VaprThrm® shirt is an equally revolutionary garment. I wore nothing but your 10 ounce VaprThrm® shirt (directly against my skin) during the three and a half day (350 mile) race. When temperatures dipped below 5°F (it hit -20°) then I put on either a six ounce windbreaker for added insulation, or a medium-weight, pile-type jacket and the windbreaker. I never needed more than that. Part of the beauty and versatility of the VaprThrm® system is that it’s windproof. The windproof shirt, worn right against the skin, keeps a ‘micro-climate’ on the inside. When I got too hot from high aerobic output I simply pulled the zipper down to compensate. With the VaprThrm® shirt my outer insulation never got wet."

Question for Ryan Jordan:
Do you have any ideas about how a RBH Designs VB Shirt/Pants might work for a cold weather hike such as this one you are planning? At the price of their Mitts/Gloves I would guess a shirt would cost in the area of $175 to $200 and pants maybe about the same. If the shirt weight was 10 or 11oz. that might put the pants maybe 3 or 4 ounces heavier. What would a person save in other gear by wearing this VB stuff?

I hope to have a Cuben shirt and pants to test on my December Hike in the Smokies. Maybe I should spend a couple days hiking back and forth from Newfound Gap up to Clingmans Dome with different combinations of cloths and see how things compair.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/20/2005 22:59:44 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Update on 10/20/2005 23:13:31 MDT Print View

Winter SUL Gear List updated to change food storage to plastic grocery bag, decrease map weight, and decrease first aid weight.

We will keep thinking about what additions we will make including vbl, extra socks (don't think Ryan wants them..lol), etc. What about giving him a WM Meltdown jacket or that badass RAB jacket or upgrading the sleeping bag or not cutting down the sleeping pads or add back Vapor mitts so he doesn't have to wear them?

Edited by jshann on 10/20/2005 23:34:08 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
re.Update on 10/21/2005 00:04:03 MDT Print View

If ole stinky feet doesn't want an additional pair of socks, nobody's making him. Ryan does need to photograph purty pics of his frostbitten toes and
tell us all about his personal experiences with the latest in surgical advances in treating gangrene while he lies in post op.

Incidently, no one has talked about footwear,yet.
But I suppose RJ will surprise us by wearing Crocs
or flipflops.

I vote for the Vapor Mitts, John.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
re. VB clothing on 10/21/2005 00:13:49 MDT Print View

I hope Ryan does answer you, Bill.

Personally, I'm a big believer in VBL liners used in sub-20 temps. They work for me--that is, I stay warmer and extend how low I can use my sleeping bag and I do wake up dry (no condensation within the liner plus the down in my bag doesn't pick up body moisture).
But as to VBL clothing used outside of sleeping mode---- I get real clammy (and uncomfortable) when I'm active, wearing the stuff in the teens and twenties. Maybe it would work better in lower
temps.,I don't know. I like wearing softshells much better---more adaptable to broader temperature ranges and exertion levels.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: re.Update on 10/21/2005 02:40:00 MDT Print View

thought i read an earlier post which said he would take the xtra pr. of socks? was i mistaken?

EDIT:
ok. just found it. here's Dr. J's post (emphasis mine):

"10/20/2005 15:34:49 MDT POST REPLY

The idea of this exercise is that you guys not add all this extraneous stuff, so that skills / techniques can replace some reliance on gear... ;) I do appreciate the extra socks, but if it came right down to it, I do reserve the right to ditch (but not add) gear at the car."

-------------------------------------------------------
Also, even though it's a short trip, let's keep the good Dr. warm and well fed. i can't help but think that the reason why Dr. J MIGHT HAVE (don't know if he was exposed some other way and not sure of the "timing", so i'm guessing here and could be "all wet" - only the good Dr. knows for sure) developed a Strep throat after his 9d trek (with all that cold and shivering he described) was just that - the COLD. seems like he supplemented his diet with the trout. this time it's slim pickens though.

[sidebar: i've read conflicting info from the medical community on cold and the immune system. however, when i was a clinical microbiologist, first-hand/personally, i have more than once cultured Group A Beta Strep (the worst kind) from my throat and tonsillar region - permanent flora apparently (very very small numbers cp. to other non-pathogenic Streps). had so many Strep throats under similar circumstances that it is too much to be coincidence. for over 20years, never bothered me unless i got really run down or extremely chilled, then a full fledged Strep throat complete with 10d of anti-biotic therapy - eventually asked my Doc to send to me to an E.N.T. (aka otorhinolaryngologist.) to have the tonsils removed. have not had a Strep throat in nearly 30yrs now. There are some other pathogens (e.g. pneumococci) most people generally carry, but they don't do well if we are otherwise healthy - "opportunistic".]



So...let's not challenge his stalwart immune system. let's keep him warm and well fed.

Edited by pj on 10/21/2005 03:09:08 MDT.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: VB Clothing on 10/21/2005 07:00:45 MDT Print View

>> Question for Ryan Jordan:
Do you have any ideas about how a RBH Designs VB Shirt/Pants might work for a cold weather hike such as this one you are planning? At the price of their Mitts/Gloves I would guess a shirt would cost in the area of $175 to $200 and pants maybe about the same. If the shirt weight was 10 or 11oz. that might put the pants maybe 3 or 4 ounces heavier. What would a person save in other gear by wearing this VB stuff?

Bill: their VB clothing is made with the same technology, but way different fabric construction. The shirt and pants will be lightweight, *should* be on par with the stephenson stuff. Same deal on price, they won't be that expensive. RBH mitt construction is very expensive, the clothing not so much.

What's to gain from a VB like those from RBH or Stephenson vs. silnylon etc. remains to be seen, but I've worn the Stephenson a bunch and I do appreciate its inner fuzzy surface which does reduce its feeling of clamminess, better than a non fuzzy VB.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
cold & strep on 10/21/2005 07:09:08 MDT Print View

>> I can't help but think that the reason why Dr. J MIGHT HAVE developed a Strep throat after his 9d trek.

Paul, my experience with strep is right on the money with yours. I do get it frequently after becoming extremely chilled. The number of strep infections I've received after a multi-day winter climb with too little gear is too many to count (perhaps my tonsils aren't the problem, but my climbing ethic - but then again, if I got my tonsils out, I could keep up the pace AND reduce my FSO...)

Anyway, this time around, same deal, but not from the 9d hike: I got extremely chilled standing in the Firehole River in a snowstorm with waders that leaked on a 30 degree day in a snowstorm up in Yellowstone Park. "Why?" you ask? Because fall baetis were hatching, migratory brown trout were running, and fish were rising everywhere, both of which tend to affect the decision making process of fly fishermen.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Ryan's footwear for Montana death march on 10/21/2005 10:29:51 MDT Print View

Ryan---if choosing your gearlist includes choosing your footwear, it is only fair to let you use among what you have so as to be assured of something that fits.
Can you provide a list of shoes/boots in your gear closet(s) ---you can remove the silly factor
and abbreviate the list-- no Solomon Amphibians or plastic high altitude mtneering boots, for example.

This could be an interesting excercise---- Does Dr. Jordan share a possible link to Imelda Marcos? Only the total # of pairs will provide a clue.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: cold & strep on 10/21/2005 10:57:27 MDT Print View

>>" if I got my tonsils out...reduce my FSO"

Dr J,

clever thinking. you have an amazing grasp of the UL philosophy.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Ryan's footwear for Montana death march on 10/21/2005 10:58:28 MDT Print View

Nice troll, Kevin. Instead of providing you a Marcos inventory, I'll provide you with what I have available for ... this trip :)

1. Any number of breathable trail running shoes that weigh 12-13 oz/shoe. The ones that fit the best are: Inov-8 Terrocs, Montrail Hardrocks, and Montrail Highlines.

2. Brasher Supalite GTX.

3. Trango S.

4. Dynafit MLT4 boots (required for skis).

5. Gaiters and overboots. OR Caimans, Forty Below custom neoprene overboots, about 16 oz/pair.

6. RBH Designs Fleece Vapr-Thrm Socks. Various silnylon/nylon vapor barrier sock liners. Any combo of socks you can think of, from Smartwool RBX to Possumdown and everything in between.

That should get y'all a good footwear start.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: Re: Ryan's footwear for Montana death march on 10/21/2005 11:21:32 MDT Print View

>>"Marcos inventory"

i was just thinking...it's a little ironic, isn't it? so many of us who try to carry as little as possible on the trail have so much gear in the closet at home? probably, much more in weight than our non-L/UL counterparts. guess, there are worse things we could spend our money on, right?

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Saving Dr. Ryan's tootsies on 10/21/2005 11:31:06 MDT Print View

That's exactly what I wanted--something both to work with and be fair to you.

Troll! You beast!

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
VBL and Footwear on 10/21/2005 11:39:38 MDT Print View

Kevin D. writes:

>> The sleep system you propose is good except I think we need to multi-task the VBL component.

A space bag could also serve as a pack liner....

Oh, on the footwear thing, it may not be in your closet Ryan, but can you get your hands on these?

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/vasque_spindrift_outdoor_retailer_winter_market_2005.html

If they fit well, they sound like they'd be ideal w/ snowshoes for this trip. Plus, they might be warm enough for Ryan to ditch those extra socks and not make us all feel guilty.

Edited by MikeMartin on 10/21/2005 11:49:06 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Saving Dr. Ryan's tootsies 2 on 10/21/2005 11:52:45 MDT Print View

Ryan, which pair would you feel most comfortable snowshoeing with? I was thinking the Brashers or Trangos--neither of what I think of as winter boots, but w/ your neoprene overshoes (or a super gaitor type rig)...I guess plausible. Using Vbl sox, I've never used, but this would be a good way to review the RBH sox.

I personally ski and rarely snowshoe but I would like you to perform this experiment travelling in snowshoes because I think (perhaps wrongly but based on my personal observations of winter travellers in N. America) that more people do backcountry snowpacking in snowshoes
than skis, and thus would be more representative.

MM---re. Vasque shoes---are they on the market, yet?

Edited by kdesign on 10/21/2005 11:56:21 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Saving Dr. Ryan's tootsies --a proposal on 10/21/2005 18:45:25 MDT Print View

I like the idea of Ryan using the Brashers for his purgatorial endeavor. In part because I have been curious about their possibilities. Pittards leather is up to this (based on me favoring some old mtneering boots that used it) and would help provide decent upper support(for it's weight), and should provide resistance to preventing the snowshoe binding straps from creating cold or sorespots. Between a leather upper w/ few seams and the GTX lining, I think he will be reasonably dry. Would one still use VBL sox w/ gore-tex? The custom neoprene overboots sound interesting( 40 below? 16 oz. for the pair?), but lack info on it's features---were they designed to be used with boots or to winterize trail runners (Hard Rocks at -40?)
Without further info forthcoming, I'm going to suggest that Ryan use the Caiman gaitors.

What sox thickness fits in your Brashers,RJ?

Edited by kdesign on 10/21/2005 18:50:40 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Saving Ryan's Privates: Update on 10/21/2005 19:39:06 MDT Print View

Winter SUL Gear List updated to add Vapor mitts.

larry savage
(pyeyo) - F

Locale: pacific northwest
slather on the mitchum on 10/21/2005 20:06:46 MDT Print View

I've had good results using a nrs 3mm neoprene socks w/ a thin synthetic liner in sub-zero weather. I also coat my feet with a strong deoderant like mitchum.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: VBL and Footwear on 10/22/2005 00:13:39 MDT Print View

Mike Martin wrote:

>> Oh, on the footwear thing, it may not be in your closet Ryan, but can you get your hands on these? http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/vasque_spindrift_outdoor_retailer_winter_market_2005.html

These are 2 lb 7 oz. My Brasher Supalite GTX with RBH Designs Vapr Thrm Fleece Socks are lighter (2 lb 6 oz) and warmer and the socks can be separated to dry the system if needed.

I do have a pair of Steger Mukluks: Arctics. They are worth considering, certainly, if the mode of travel will be snowshoes. Far and away the warmest footwear of the lot. Totally cush. Very pleasant for winter camping. Disadvantage is steep terrain, as they offer little support. Their weight is 3 lb/pr.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Saving Dr. Ryan's tootsies --a proposal on 10/22/2005 00:16:56 MDT Print View

In response to Kevin:

1. My brashers can accomodate the lighter weight version of the RBH fleece socks but not the heavy ones. There is some advantage to the RBH fleece socks even in a waterproof boot, in that the VB lining is inside the fleece insulation, and the whole bit is one piece, unlike three pieces required in a typical vb sock system: liner, vb, and insulating sock. I do usually wear a very thin pair of wool socks under the RBH fleece socks to keep feet from feeling too clammy.

2. Overboots have an eVENT upper and 2mm neoprene boot. yes, forty below brand. They fit over both my brashers and my trail runners.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Dr. Ryan's tootsies--Final if snowshoes? on 10/22/2005 10:17:37 MDT Print View

Brashers
LW RBH sox
OR Caimans ( the forty below overboots won't work
w/ snowshoes very well, right?--no exposed tread,
neoprene soles wuld be exposed to direct contact w/ snow--no traction except for what's provided by
binding traction devices or devces directly attached to snowshoe frame. If using w/o snowshoes you would need to use w/ crampons?)
I'm hoping that you do a route that is mixed terrain w/ at least some steep (but not technical requiring crampons)country. Some exposed rocky ridges. The
grand tour. No Mukluks (Steigers are great,aren't they?) for the reasons you cited.

Come on people--weigh in!

Edited by kdesign on 10/22/2005 10:19:43 MDT.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Dr. Ryan's tootsies--Final if snowshoes? on 10/22/2005 10:24:33 MDT Print View

the forty below overboots were GREAT with snowshoes HINT HINT. :) I had mine custom made with a grip tread so I could walk around camp in the snow with them. Where I'll be going, the need to "winter" hike without snowshoes is very limited. There will be a ton of deep snow. The rocky ridges - the overboots can be pulled off easily enough for that stuff.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Dr. Ryan's tootsies--we have a winner-40 belows on 10/22/2005 10:33:59 MDT Print View

OK-- I should never underestimate your capacity to tweak those custom goodies.

Brashers
RBH LW
40 Below custom wonder overboots

Yep.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Re: Dr. Ryan's tootsies--Final if snowshoes? on 10/22/2005 12:18:41 MDT Print View

Ryan writes:

>> the forty below overboots were GREAT with snowshoes HINT HINT.

Ok, guys. This is SUL with a high skills emphasis, right? No doubt that overboots would be plush, but unless Ryan wears them all the time while hiking, we'd have to add them to our "carried" weight, totally blowing our base weight.

I want Ryan to come back with all his toes (really!), but is there a lighter, more elegant solution that will still keep his feet cozy in the conditions discussed? Any out-of-the-box suggestions?

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Re: Re: Dr. Ryan's tootsies--Final if snowshoes? on 10/22/2005 12:23:46 MDT Print View

>> Ok, guys. This is SUL...

Mike:

Brasher Boots: 32 oz
Overboots: 16 oz
RBH Socks: 5 oz
Wool sock liners: 1 oz

Total footwear: 54 oz (3 lb 6 oz)

Which is about the weight of the summer classic backpacking boot: La Sportiva Makalu.

Only this equivalent weight system is being taken to subzero temperatures.

This is a skills exercise, for sure, but it's also extremely useful to highlight what you can do successfully for so little weight.

And, I'm not really sure what skill there is in using winter footwear. Put it on in the morning and take it off at night.

The only way I could see to go lighter, and I'm game with that, which would require more attention, is to replace the brashers with some 1.5 lb trail runners...this option would require a little more attention paid to where you walk (inability to traverse sidehills as well, and mixed snow/rock would be tough without also carrying a full gaiter and using waterproof shoes.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Re: Re: Re: Dr. Ryan's tootsies--Final if snowshoes? on 10/22/2005 12:28:28 MDT Print View

Ryan writes:

>> Total footwear: 54 oz (3 lb 6 oz)

>> Which is about the weight of the summer classic backpacking boot: La Sportiva Makalu.

Ok. I'll buy it. It's light. It's warm. It's flexible.

What about the pack weight issue? Will you *always* be wearing the overboots?

>> And, I'm not really sure what skill there is in using winter footwear. Put it on in the morning and take it off at night.

Just off-the-cuff: how about special techniques for keeping your feet warm with less insulated footwear; relying on snowshoes to keep the footwear out of the snow; maybe sleeping in the boots...

Best Regards,

-Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 10/22/2005 12:32:45 MDT.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
OK MM--thinking out of the icebox on 10/22/2005 12:28:53 MDT Print View

prosthetic feet? --of course Ryan will have to undergo some modding.

seriously Michael, the Brashers are already a very light boot for this undertaking and coupled with a lighter sock (albeit VBL)...
Perhaps the overboots could be used with trailrunners instead (which the guy said was possible).
I think overboots would be mostly worn ( as much as the snowshoes, anyway. So, should not count as baseweight. Maybe if RJ is starving he can eat them (thus counting as consumable).
Nix the trailrunners--I stick w/ original proposal (and add minimalist sock liners). I want to see a mixed terrain trip.

Edited by kdesign on 10/22/2005 12:36:19 MDT.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: OK MM--thinking out of the icebox on 10/22/2005 12:33:41 MDT Print View

>> What about pack weight when you're not wearing the overboots?

I think 'pack weight' in general is overrated as a metric of your skill/ultralight prowess. I always look at someones FSO. It's pretty easy to "pad the stats" with an ultralight pack by carrying and wearing a bunch of stuff, putting it in pockets, etc.

Michael Martin
(MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Re: OK MM--thinking out of the icebox on 10/22/2005 12:42:48 MDT Print View

Ryan writes:

>> I think 'pack weight' in general is overrated as a metric of your skill/ultralight prowess. I always look at someones FSO. It's pretty easy to "pad the stats" with an ultralight pack by carrying and wearing a bunch of stuff, putting it in pockets, etc.

I completely agree. It's just that this exercise started with a 5lb base weight limit. Maybe we should change the criteria to (uh, I dunno) 10 or 11 lbs FSO weight (w/o consumables), or more if we include snowshoes and poles. [comments?]

Edited by MikeMartin on 11/05/2005 19:39:36 MST.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Ryan J's Footwear on 10/22/2005 15:55:05 MDT Print View

I am really glad to see so much thought going into Rayn's footwear. I am laboring over what footwear I want/need for my December Smokies (GSMNP) South hike. I don't expect "0" temperatures but could easly see 20 to 60 degrees with anything from rain, mud, snow and ice.

I read Ryan's review of the Brasher's but where can you buy them on this side of the ocean? Also at at 31.5oz for a size 8.5 - I need an 11.5 and expect that would be over the 2.1 pounds each of my current Danner Boots. I truly love my heavy Danners and have been wearing this model for about 12 years. My wants are for a trail runner, with what ever I need on them or in them as long as the total weight is well under the 2.1 pounds each of my current 10" - water proof very comfortable Danners. My current Danners are insulated also but I would get my next pair without the insulation and go for one of the RBH Designs footwear items.

My current trail runner is a TNF Ultra 102. I have had several pairs of this model and they are OK.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/22/2005 15:56:11 MDT.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Re: Ryan J's Footwear on 10/22/2005 17:19:18 MDT Print View

Bill writes:

>> Also at at 31.5oz for a size 8.5 - I need an 11.5 and expect that would be over the 2.1 pounds each of my current Danner Boots.

Bill: that 31.5 oz for the Brashers - that's for the pair, not each...

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Ryan's Footwear on 10/22/2005 17:40:57 MDT Print View

You are correct, how did I miss that little detail. Going back to your review I see that you stated that twice.

OK, so do I want to try the RBH Insulator Boot Liner at (men's size 10 - 5.6oz per pair) or their Vapor Barrier Sock at - no weight given? I can send them an email and ask about the weight.

I would wait till I get the RBH item and see how it feels in my current trail runner and if I needed a larger pair get a new pair of trail runner. My current size 11 - TNF Ultra 102's(non-gore-tex) weigh 14oz each or 28oz per pair. I like the 102's well enough to buy another pair but I am not in love with them and I might try a different shoe. The "cons" you list for the Brasher's keep me from buying them as most of my hiking is in warm to hot weather.
Thanks

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Brashers or bust on 10/22/2005 17:44:28 MDT Print View

Bill, although there is no U.S. distribution for Brashers at the moment, they are available from a number of UK retailers who will ship stateside. My experience with getting stuff from the Brits is that the International Postage cost ( about 15 -30 dollar range) will offset the VAT costs (that we don't have to pay. Of course boot fitting issues can be an issue. Return is an issue.

Oh, I see it's a moot point.

Edited by kdesign on 10/22/2005 17:46:39 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
The UK Connection - Brasher Boots on 10/22/2005 18:21:22 MDT Print View

You are correct, but they may have other models than the one Ryan did the review of. One of my other hobbies is doing some real detailing of standard plastic model airplane kits. Most of the add-on detail kits I buy from a company in the UK. With a credit card it has gotten really easy to buy stuff from everywhere to include the UK. Japan has gotten much better also in the last few years. From the UK I get most orders in less than 2 weeks. Sometime as fast as 5 working days.

My concern for shoes or boots would be the sizing question.

Edited by bfornshell on 10/22/2005 18:25:26 MDT.

David Couch
(Davidc) - F

Locale: England
Brasher Boots on 10/23/2005 08:35:30 MDT Print View

I suspect that the spec. has changed since Ryan bought his Brasher Supalite GTX boots. On their website they now quote the weight for a pair of UK size 9 (US size 9 1/2) as 1136gms (40 oz).

My US size 8 1/2 pair of the non-goretex version of Supalites weighs 1048gms (37 ozs). To my mind they are better than the GTX version in that they are cooler in warmer weather, and dry out sooner when soaked. I can wear sealskin socks if necessary. Unfortunately this version seems to have been discontinued.

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
Ryan Jordan and the Gear list of Doom on 10/24/2005 10:21:54 MDT Print View

Update, dear readers. So far we have a suggested base weight list ( you will have to backtrack up this thread), some suggestions for worn clothing and a footwear ensemble.

Snowshoes are the suggested means of locomotion. There is some discussion about not being so focused on base weight and more on full skinout weight (FSO).

Gentle readers---Weigh in, tear it apart, whatever.

Jim Colten
(jcolten)

Locale: MN
Re: Ryan Jordan and the Gear list of Doom on 10/24/2005 12:40:54 MDT Print View

There is some discussion about not being so focused on base weight and more on full skinout weight (FSO).

Absolutely! My own feeling is that FSO wt. PLUS wt. of consumables per day is the only measure worth discussing. Any partial measure leaves room to be arbitrary and define an object as not part of base wt. rather than actually leaving it at home. Much like our government defining expenditures as "out of budget"

However, in Ryan's case I'd cut him slack and not weigh his camera and note taking gear ... since that's there only for the purpose of recording the outcomes ... but only if he doesn't use those objects as a pillow, foot stool or other camp gadget.

Edited by jcolten on 10/24/2005 12:42:17 MDT.


(Anonymous)
FSO on 10/24/2005 12:57:03 MDT Print View

I like the direction the FSO thought is going. But, ultimately even then I would like it more on a weighted basis depending on where the item is used. I mean if you could drop the weight of snowshoe/footwear combo even more I would think that would be even a greater offset than adding a few pounds to his base load. Although, technically, the FSO might be higher. And let's face the weight of the clothes you are wearing are generally less of a strain than what you are carrying. Their should be some weighted factor for this as well.

Ultimately, I must admit, I want to see the running shoe/overboot combo. This really intrigues me.

Anon #10

kevin davidson
(kdesign) - F

Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
March o' Death-- the Ryan Jordan Saga on 10/25/2005 20:45:23 MDT Print View

I don't want to see the running shoe/overboot combo,particularly. It just limits you to more moderate terrain and I want to see this trip hit more varied ground. We don't want to bore the Doctor.

I wonder about the smallish (for Winter) cookpot-- .75 liter Anti Gravity that is currently on the list -- if it is a bit small for purposes of effectively melting the quantities of snow one needs for drinking as well as for cooking. Winter is the time I'm more apt to get dehydrated. Any thoughts? Is there a Liter pot of similar weight (3.8 oz. or less) that is in the market or can be made?

Edited by kdesign on 10/25/2005 20:49:15 MDT.

Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
Footwear for Ryan's Winter Trip on 10/25/2005 20:50:57 MDT Print View

OK, based on the feedback from footwear, this is what I'll bring, erring on the side of ... less conservative and lighter weight. I grabbed XCR shoes in case the overboots needed to be ditched for rock scrambling. For an emergency "gaiter" I'll sew a stirrup strap into my pants cuff.

RYAN'S FOOTWEAR

Worn:

  • Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks (2 oz)
  • RBH Designs Vapr-Thrm Fleece Socks (Lightweight Version) (3 oz)
  • Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes (24 oz)
  • Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots (16 oz)
  • Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes (35 oz)

    Carried: nothing extra

    Contingency plan for cold feet at night: hot water bottle?


    I did find it interesting that footwear received most of the initial attention. It's so critical to lightweight backpacking, and as much as any other piece of gear. Ironically, or maybe not so ironically, footwear is the topic of the very first chapter of Lightweight Backpacking & Camping, for good reason.

    Anyway, the footwear deal is sealed.

    Since shelter type will govern clothing choices to a large extent, let's tackle shelter/sleep system. The current proposal on the table (from John Shannon) is:

  • Snowcave
  • Snowclaw Snow Shovel
  • Arc alpinist X
  • Vapor nano bivy
  • Spinnsack for sleep gear
  • GG nightlight torso length cut down
  • GG thinlight 3/8" cut down

    Edited by ryan on 10/26/2005 11:02:47 MDT.

  • kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Footwear for Ryan's Winter ramble on 10/25/2005 21:04:31 MDT Print View

    Yes, sealed or not---why the Susitna 2's ( which were not on your original list of footwear options)? Will they provide enough support for sidehill traverses?And are you reconciled to snowshoes? I did think we were choosing your gear? :-)>

    Shelter/sleep system is fine, not a conservative selection, either--it will be interesting to see what clothes combo will get selected to round this system off--Hope you can dig out a snowcave each night. It's a wrap.

    next category?

    Edited by kdesign on 10/25/2005 21:17:46 MDT.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: Footwear for Ryan's Winter ramble on 10/25/2005 21:29:47 MDT Print View

    >> Yes, sealed or not---why the Susitna 2's

    XCR shoes give me some flexibility for other terrain. The Susitna's fit me OK. They are very flexible. There is some thought that maximum flexibility in winter footwear results in warmer feet (the mukluk theory) due to better circulation.

    Not much talk of skis til now, so snowshoes, or no snowshoes, were assumed. Either way, I guess that decision does need to be made. I already have the lightest snowshoes available: Northern Lites Elites. Snowshoes will get me into the backcountry. No snowshoes will probably find me within sight of the car ;) If there are no objections, I'll add the Elites to the list.

    >> Will they provide enough support for sidehill traverses?

    Not as much as the Brashers. This will definitely force me to pick my route and navigate the terrain.

    >> I did think we were choosing your gear? :-)>

    Just trying to keep things moving along. We could spend two months on footwear, I think. The idea here is to bring a system that is truly ultralight and not just "lightweight but conservative", and to select gear that demands attention to technique to really make it shine in these conditions (not just make it "work").

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Ryan's Winter ramble is finally shod on 10/25/2005 21:34:30 MDT Print View

    By all means, add the Elites. Good choice.

    Moving on...

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Shelter on 10/25/2005 21:48:59 MDT Print View

    Ryan writes:

    >> Since shelter type will govern clothing choices to a large extent, let's tackle shelter/sleep system. The current proposal on the table (from John Shannon) is:

    # Snowcave
    # Snowclaw Snow Shovel
    # Arc alpinist X
    # Vapor nano bivy
    # Spinnsack for sleep gear
    # GG nightlight torso length cut down
    # GG thinlight 3/8" cut down
    <<

    Ryan-

    We brought up the VBL issue previously. Without (yet) divulging your secret SUL techniques, can you deal with the down Arc X and snowcave condensation without one? (If so, I'm really looking forward to your trip report -- much to learn...)

    Seems like you'd be shivering on your thinlight in a bag of wet oatmeal by the third night.

    Best Regards,

    -Mike

    Edited by MikeMartin on 10/25/2005 22:00:48 MDT.

    John S.
    (jshann) - F
    Re: Re: Shelter on 10/25/2005 23:10:44 MDT Print View

    There is still the 4 oz. to add some overfill or a vbl.......or them extra socks.

    Mike Maurer
    (maurer) - F - M

    Locale: Oregon
    Winter SUL list on 10/26/2005 08:40:54 MDT Print View

    Hey all,

    Long time lurker, first time poster. couldn't resist this one. Haven't read the entire thread so this may be a bit redundant, OK, here goes;

    IN PACK:
    G6 pack - 3.7 oz
    Arc X bag - 15.2
    WM vest - 5.0
    Cocoon jacket - 8.5
    Quantum knickers - 6.4
    reed pants - 4.3
    Golite syhth hood - 2.5
    Pdown cap - 1.4
    OR balaclava - 1.0
    PDown gloves - 1.2
    Nano Pocho Tarp - 4.9 NEW (est)
    6 stakes, line - 2.0
    Nano/quantum bivy - 4.2 NEW (est)
    RBH Vb socks/liners(sleeping) - 2.6
    GG torso pad/+ leg pad - 7.5
    Jet ti stove - 2.7
    fuel canister - 3.3
    SP 600 cup/spoon - 3.5

    WEIGHT IN PACK - 79.9

    Wear:

    smartwool crew
    Dragonfly
    Golite momentum
    arcteryx gamma pants
    ice floe gloves
    tilley hat
    your choice of shoes

    concept - cook drinks and soup, eat cold food. might switch SP60 for slightly larger pot. still need room for platy but this is getting close to what I'd carry.

    OK - fire away.

    Mike Maurer

    Mike Maurer
    (maurer) - F - M

    Locale: Oregon
    Winter SUL, part II on 10/26/2005 08:42:36 MDT Print View

    Hey all,

    I forgot to add Northern litees snowshoes tot he above list - they'd double as the shovel.

    Mike Maurer

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    M. Maurer's Winter SUL list on 10/26/2005 10:32:44 MDT Print View

    What are "quantum knickers"? Are you suggesting a pair of cut down Cocoon Pants?

    Cook pot too small, I think, for melting snow.
    Perhaps too much weight and bulk from too many layers. You are suggesting that much of this fit into a G6. The Cocoon Pullover/W.M. vest combo is versatile but perhaps not warm enough to justify the weight/bulk penalty (over 4 oz. difference). If using a Cocoon, Ryan has access to a hooded version.

    Poncho of limited utility in Winter--I'd hate to have it flapping around in a winter storm (if any) and doesn't provide arm protection when digging out a snowcave but would be an excellant vehicle for trapping large quantities of loose snow within.

    I think wind and moisture protection should be one garment for this trip. Dragonfly will flap around, a stiffer ID eVENT jacket will serve dual utility and be an extra thermal layer as part of layering system.
    I would more likely use a UL windshell as part of a sleeping system in Winter.

    I would go with a midweight merino wool baselayer.
    I think a softshell jacket/pants combo is essential.
    Golite Momentum (possibly) and the Gamma MX (good). Personally, I would prefer either Ibex Guide Lite Pants or Beyond Fleece Cold Fusion Pants (probably the latter for this mission). A zippered W/B pant is needed to fit over it.

    Edited by kdesign on 10/26/2005 11:38:26 MDT.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: M. Maurer's Winter SUL list on 10/26/2005 12:12:36 MDT Print View

    >> I think wind and moisture protection should be one garment for this trip. Dragonfly will flap around, a stiffer ID eVENT jacket will serve dual utility and be an extra thermal layer as part of layering system.
    I would more likely use a UL windshell as part of a sleeping system in Winter.

    Interestingly, choice of windwear is far more integrated with choice of shelter in the winter than in the "other seasons".

    If your choice of shelter is something you carry (tarp, tent, pyramid, etc.) then shoveling/stomping out a platform is not such a wet task and you could probably ditch waterproof garments.

    On the other hand, if your choice of shelter is a snowcave, where your hands, knees, butt, shoulders, head, etc. are in constant contact with the snow, then waterproofs become a more serious consideration.

    I'm curious what thought processes others go through in deciding on shell gear, or if there are other considerations here.

    Mike Maurer
    (maurer) - F - M

    Locale: Oregon
    SUL gear responses on 10/26/2005 12:13:14 MDT Print View

    Keith,

    Not much interest in debating gear decisions, HYOH I say. Here's what was in my head, however, when I posted the list;

    1. Mentioned in my "concept" notes about the need for a bigger pot. I'd switch to the anitgravity pot but didn't want to take the time to figure out where to deduct the weight.
    2. Quantum knickers - somewhere on this enormous website you might find a winter pic of Ryan in green down pants. These are his down knickers. Made by Nunatak a long time ago.
    3. Warmth layers - with such a light down bag he'll need the core warmth a WM vest provides. One of the better warmth/weight ratios around.
    4. Poncho - arm coverage provided by the momentum jacket. Flapping ponchos suck but so what. Tarp would make a great roof for a snow trench in a big storm.
    5. Layering the Dragonfly is for hiking WARMTH, not so much for wind protection. baselayer/windshirt/momentum can be a highly breathable, very warm kit for winter hiking (just ask Ryan).

    Cheers.

    Mike

    Mike Maurer
    (maurer) - F - M

    Locale: Oregon
    Winter SUL LIst on 10/26/2005 12:25:31 MDT Print View

    Sorry Kevin,

    I meant Kevin, not Keith on the last post. I know a guy named Keith Davidson, which is waht was in my head when I typed. Anyway, know you know why I don't post much - I usually screw something up, and don't spell check very well!!

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: Winter SUL list on 10/26/2005 12:26:55 MDT Print View

    Mike Suggests:

    >> 1 lb down bag
    >> Poncho Tarp
    >> wind shirt
    >> snowshoes for a shovel

    The only way to make a 1 lb down bag work in these temperatures is to (1) keep it dry to preserve the miniscule amount of insulation that's in there, (2) take the time to build an ultra-efficient snowcave and keep it warm with an all-night candle (tea lights won't do it), and (3) keep it dry from dripping, and drip it will, aplenty, if the cave is as warm as you want it.

    The chance that (2) will happen with a poncho and wind shirt and a snowshoe is somewhere between zero and none. It will take about 10 minutes of digging with this setup before one becomes very wet, very cold, and very frustrated. This is an emergency scenario, which is not the goal of this exercise. The goal here is: how light can you go and still be safe and comfortable, tapping into as much skill and knowledge about gear and technique as possible to reduce pack weight.

    Because the snowcaver with the kit listed above is soaking wet by the time he goes to bed, the one pound down bag will be destroyed in a few hours.

    I think it's fine that you're wet when you go to bed, and I certainly don't mind digging with a snowshoe and taking a poncho vs. a set of waterproofs. I can figure out a way to dig a good cave doing that, and don't mind getting wet in the process. But, in order to make THAT system work, you need a down bag with spare dry clothes and/or VB perhaps, or, a synthetic bag that is a bit fatter than 1 lb, to compensate for the loss of insulating ability as a result of moisture in the bag.

    Cool discussion, so many options. I hope this exercise is valuable: there's lots to consider in the winter.

    The trench idea is a good one, I love building trenches: they are FAST and with a roof supported by skis, sticks, poles, etc., pretty comfortable in a storm. But, they are COLD and require a sleep system rated to the ambient temperatures.

    Edited by ryan on 10/26/2005 12:27:30 MDT.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Ryan's Winter List observations on 10/26/2005 13:14:17 MDT Print View

    Ryan --I'm being absolutely snowcave centric at this point in the discussion when I'm suggesting/critiqueing gear choices. I would like to keep the Arc Alpinist in the picture.

    Mike , if you don't want to debate choices, where's the fun in participating in this discussion?

    We all may learn something.

    Edited by kdesign on 10/26/2005 13:18:01 MDT.

    Mike Maurer
    (maurer) - F - M

    Locale: Oregon
    Winter SUL on 10/26/2005 13:51:24 MDT Print View

    Kevin,

    Good point on the debate thing - i'm in. Forgive the spell check issue though. OK - instead of asking myself WHAT I would put on a 5 lb baseweight list, I thought about what would I NEED in those conditions, and how much does it weigh? I started with Ryans ingoing scenario (about the 3rd post on this thread.) He needs to be covered for above treeline, storm conditions, 3 days/2 nights.

    Then I thought, OK, what do I NEED in terms of snow melting. shelter, etc. When I got to the shelter part I figured:

    below treeline, storms - Alphamid
    bleow treeline, light snowfall but safe - Spinnshelter (for full protection)

    However, I'm guessing that since the criteria is above treeline/stormy, a snow cave scenario is the only way to even consider a sub 5 lb weight. The minimum shelter I'd carry above treeline in winter is likely a Bd firstlight, carbon poles. Weight is around 2# 6 oz I think, which wipes out the 5 lb idea. So I'm going to re-think the gear list based on a snow cave scenario They take a long time to build, but ryan didn't say he needed high mileage, so maybe a 2 night, three day trip can utilize a snow cave that would be used for 2 consecutive nights. Hike in/build on day 1, hike a loop on day 2, hike to car day three. I haven't done the weight math, but some thoughts I'll be considering under this scenrio:

    Kitchen:
    2L aluminum pot, lifter, flame, screen, lid, etc - 8.2 oz
    large fuel canister - I think around 4.5 oz.
    This would get him water and warm drinks.

    warmth:

    WM vest
    cocoon jacket
    cocoon pants
    arc x bag - 15.2 oz
    P3D overbag - 11 oz
    nano bivy
    down hood - 3 oz

    Gets him down to Zero, and the high % of synthetic might get him through snow cave issues.

    Wear:
    Gamma pants
    swool base
    dragonfly
    momentum jacket
    tilley
    shoes
    K2 overboots
    Northern Lites

    Carry:
    reed pants
    maybe Montane superfly jacket
    w/b gloves for building the cave. Hopefully he can build a cave in reeds/momentum/ w-b gloves

    As you can see, the weight is soaring and I haven't done the math. But this might be the lightest scenario for above treeline, I'd just need to tweak a wet snowbuilding clothing list and see where the numbers come in.

    Mike

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    About Snow Caves on 10/26/2005 14:10:40 MDT Print View

    When figuring out a sleeping system that will keep RJ warm and dry, remember that the inside temp. of a snow cave will generally stay around 32 degrees F if you can construct entry and venting right. Warmer when using a candle (vent well!).
    see this for a snow cave primer--
    http://www.etisurvival.com/snocv.htm

    Keeping Ryan's down bag dry will have to be addressed from both inside and outside of the bag.

    Keeping the bag dry from ouside moisture sources:
    quantum bivy , groundsheet, or even pack covers/liners/xtra clothing on top. Proper constuction of cave so anything that melts runs down walls and not dripping from ceiling.

    Keeping things dry on the inside:
    not breathing directly into the bag. VBL clothing or liner. Possibly wearing of w/b shells, windshirt and the like to bed would mitigate some of the moisture produced by the body.

    Keeping things in perspective (if things go right), this trip is 3 days. Ryan can probably afford some degradation of his down insulation from moisture buildup---although his base weight will be going up with a wet bag.

    Edited by kdesign on 10/26/2005 15:44:19 MDT.

    Mike Maurer
    (maurer) - F - M

    Locale: Oregon
    Winter Snow caving on 10/26/2005 16:32:15 MDT Print View

    I was beginning to put together a list of gear to recommend when it occured to me - I've never camped in a snow cave, nor have I ever built one. It wouldn't make sense for me to post any sort of gear recommendation under these circumstances. I'll step back and learn at this point.

    Enjoyed playing in the sandbox though.

    Mike

    Kevin Sawchuk
    (ksawchuk) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Northern California
    Re: Re: Ryan's winter list on 10/26/2005 19:09:01 MDT Print View

    I hope the snow out in Montana isn't like that here in California or a snow claw won't dig him a snow cave. In anything other than fresh light snow the snow claw hurts your hands and makes it very hard to dig.

    Any thoughts on who takes over the website if he doesn't come back? :)

    Douglas Frick
    (Otter) - MLife

    Locale: Wyoming
    Re: Re: Winter SUL list on 10/26/2005 19:39:48 MDT Print View

    > I hope this exercise is valuable: there's lots to consider in the winter.

    Absolutely. This year I'm changing from Hawaii winter (big surf) to Wyoming winter (brrrr). It's been a long time since I snow camped, and I'm still gearing for winter. This is a great thread.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: About Snow Caves on 10/26/2005 23:40:50 MDT Print View

    >> remember that the inside temp. of a snow cave will generally stay around 32 degrees F if you can construct entry and venting right. Warmer when using a candle (vent well!)

    At 0 degrees ambient, a 32 degree solo snowcave requires a very small volume cave with a tiny entrance. In practice, to make a cave "livable" and not a "coffin" the real difference is about 20 degrees once you're settled down and asleep, an all-night candle like that provided with a standard sized UCO candle lantern will add a few degrees and take the edge off well enough in a solo-sized cave. Two or three persons in a cave, even though the cave is bigger, is usually a few degrees warmer.

    The temperature is higher when you're up and active and generating more heat than when you're sleeping.

    When you're cooking, the cave really heats up! It's nice! 45 degrees inside and a howling subzero blizzard out.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Snowclaw Shovel on 10/26/2005 23:42:00 MDT Print View

    >> I hope the snow out in Montana isn't like that here in California or a snow claw won't dig him a snow cave. In anything other than fresh light snow the snow claw hurts your hands and makes it very hard to dig.

    Nah, it's all cold smoke out here in mid-winter. The Snowclaw is perfect for the Northern Rockies.

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Ryan's Winter Challenge on 10/27/2005 00:19:18 MDT Print View

    Ryan, Do you have a date or an estimated date for your hike?

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: Ryan's Winter Challenge on 10/27/2005 00:36:19 MDT Print View

    >> Ryan, Do you have a date or an estimated date for your hike?

    As soon as there's enough snow in the mountains to dig a cave and the low temps drop to zero or lower.

    Could be as early as late Nov. Shouldn't be any later than early Jan.

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Ryan's Winter Challenge on 10/27/2005 01:30:56 MDT Print View

    I am hoping to see some snow in the Smokies the last 2 weeks in December. I am sure there will not be enough for a snow cave but a few inches would sure make some nice pictures. I will be going South on the AT around a 140 miles if I don't have any problem getting to my start point. I will be using my new Hammock and my Home-Made Down Sleep System as soon as I get out of the park. I want to try at least one 3/4 day section SUL and see how that works out. I will have lots of different gear and all my snow toys close so I hope I get to use a few of them.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Snow cave living/sleep systems/VBL on 10/27/2005 14:09:19 MDT Print View

    I've had the pleasure of sleeping quite a few nights in caves, but never solo ( although I have constructed such a shelter as an emergency exercise). Usually 2 or more, sometimes palatial affairs. So, interesting hearing of your temp./comfort experiences, Ryan.

    The lightest way to get a bag rated at freezing down another 7-15 degrees (and incidentally helping to keep the down fill as dry as possible) would be with a VBL liner. I have an old PU nylon one which weighs 5 oz. and in a light silnylon or better yet, Nano/Cuben it could be absurdly light.
    I think that might be a workable solution in truest SUL good form for using an Arc X for solo snow cave living and to give Dr. Jordan a reasonable good night's rest.

    For a VBL liner to work best, one sleeps with nothing more than a baselayer (I know of several VBL nudists who swear by their method--just ask the Stephenson family). My experience of use at sub-freezing temps. is of initially feeling clammy but waking up dry. The warmer it is, the more clamminess. The baselayer helps to mitigate the clamminess by wicking moisture away from your body. The VBL seems to work best at sub 20-25 degree temperatures F.

    Of course, you can't wear additional insulation (like a down sweater) within the VBL---it will absorb body moisture. But it could be used outside of it.

    If the VBL option is employed and since snowcaves are the only practical shelters for this SUL trip, the Nano-tarp can be ditched. No weight gain, and perhaps a weight loss if we see a Nano-VBL.

    Incidently, I often use a naked candle in snow caves for light/warmth. Weight of candle lantern could be
    removed from consideration. You just need to employ it away from burnables/meltables and away from cavewalls.

    Edited by kdesign on 10/27/2005 14:28:57 MDT.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    RJ's SUL Winter: VB Gear on 10/27/2005 20:47:55 MDT Print View

    I will have available to me, if you so choose that it be used by me, a few VB items of interest.

    Silnylon pull on VB pants. 3 oz
    Silnylon VB shirt. 3 oz
    RBH Designs proto VB jacket. 10 oz
    BMW Nano sleeping bag VB liner. 2 oz.

    VB clothing can be used in conjunction with insulating clothing to boost sleep system comfort, but a VB liner is lighter.

    The RBH jacket is intended to be used as part of the winter clothing system in base layer mode. I'm pretty eager to give this a go this winter, if not on this trip. I'm guessing you could cover all bases with this and a parka and call it good: 2 layers of clothing for a winter trip. That's absurd. It's very well done, and a cool concept. Like Stephenson's VB shirt, but way more versatile.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    re.RJ's SUL Winter: VB Gear on 10/27/2005 21:50:30 MDT Print View

    I think you definitely should go for the Nano liner.
    The VBL jacket sounds very interesting ( gotta keep an eye on RBH), but could you save it for another winter trip? I think the whole ultra light sleeping set up in a snow cave built around a down bag, begs for a VBL liner.

    Or can a case be made for the RBH jacket w/ the right clothing combo, making an ultimately lighter
    system?
    Ryan Jordan reports, you decide.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    going SUL in Winter GearList on 10/30/2005 12:48:54 MST Print View

    no action on this front lately---consider this a friendly bump to the subject of equipping Ryan Jordan on his mission to en-Lighten us all.

    John S.
    (jshann) - F
    Re: Saving Ryan's Privates: Update on 11/01/2005 07:53:20 MST Print View

    Winter SUL Gear List updated to add VB liner.

    Edited by jshann on 11/01/2005 07:53:53 MST.

    Graeme Finley
    (gfinley001) - F

    Locale: SF Bay Area
    Re: Re: Saving Ryan's Privates: Update on 11/01/2005 14:30:00 MST Print View

    Given the limited duration of the trip, is a Princton Tec Eos necessary as a headlamp? A Black Diamond Ion would save over two ounces. It doesn't have all the flexibility of the Eos, and only has a 15 hour battery life, but it's significantly lighter.

    John S.
    (jshann) - F
    Re: Saving Ryan's Privates: Update on 11/01/2005 15:31:53 MST Print View

    It's something to think about for sure. I was figuring he might need something more since we are to plan for a winter storm. Maybe a brighter headlamp wouldn't help in a white out...I haven't been there. What do others think?

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    New Winter SUL Gear List on 11/01/2005 16:37:05 MST Print View

    I'm going to throw out the disclaimer that I have not done any winter camping. But I figured I would throw in my thoughts on the current gear list and give a new one. The changes are based on gear list posted above, the winter checklist, Ryan's SUL article, and other reading. None of this is based on experience ;) Here are my critiques:

    1. The Arc X is not warm enough, so I added the Arc Expedition
    2. The WM Flight Vest is not warm enough so I added the Rab Neutrino
    3. The VB liner would not allow him to use his parka as part of the sleep system so I took it out and added the VB Jacket that he want to try out.
    4. I took out all the stuff sacks except for one for the essentials
    5. I took out the beanie because the parka has a hood and gave him a balaclava with his worn items.
    6. I have him using the Vapor Mitts as his primary (and only) gloves
    7. The cookpot seems small for melting snow so I gave him the 2L pot
    8. Took out the 2 Nalgenes and gave him one 3L wide mouth Nalgene canteene
    9. Added in sun glasses
    10. The EOS is too heavy so I replaced with the Ion
    11. Added water treatment.
    12. Switched to a lighter Esbit stove. Also note that the original list did not include the empty weight of the cansiter.
    13. Change the organization of the list to include the extra clothing with the Shelter/Sleep system.
    14. Took out the lighter and storm matches and added the 0.3oz box of matches in a ziplock that he had in his SUL article.
    15. A map is not included in his SUL article so I left it out here as well. He can go somewhere he knows really well.

    Here it is:

    Clothing
    10.0 RBH Designs Proto VB Jacket
    01.5 Outdoor Research PowerStretch Balaclava
    03.0 Nike Spandex Running Short Tights
    18.0 Arc'Teryx Gamma MX
    04.0 Bozeman Mountain Works FeatherLite Vapor Mitts

    Footwear
    02.0 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
    03.0 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
    24.0 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
    16.0 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
    35.0 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

    Other Items Worn / Carried
    01.0 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCode Plus lanyard
    01.3 Suunto X6
    05.4 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles

    116.5 ounces
    Total worn or carried 7.28 pounds

    Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
    21.0 Arc Expedition
    04.0 Vapor NANO Bivy
    03.0 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso (Cut down by 0.7 oz)
    05.0 Gossamer Gear ThinLight 3/8" (Cut down by 0.3 oz)
    05.75 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel
    19.45 Rab Neutrino Quantum Down Jacket
    01.8 Possum Down Socks

    Pack
    03.7 Gossamer Gear G6 Whisper

    Cook/Hydration
    05.9 Antigravity Gear 2 Qt. Hard Anodized Pot w/ Lid
    00.4 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
    00.3 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
    02.8 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
    00.2 Plastic grocery bag
    01.3 Esbit Folding Wing Stove
    01.1 Aqua Mira repackged in eyedropper bottles, mixing cap

    Essentials
    01.1 Black Diamond Ion Headlamp
    01.0 Blister & minor would care supplies
    00.5 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares - 1 / day
    00.5 Sunglasses
    00.5 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle
    00.5 Small stuff sack to organize essentials

    79.8 ounces
    Total Packed 4.99 pounds

    Edited by bobg on 11/01/2005 19:57:30 MST.

    Jim Colten
    (jcolten)

    Locale: MN
    Re: New Winter SUL Gear List on 11/01/2005 16:56:19 MST Print View

    I've used esbit on solo "shoulder season" trips (cold temps but pre-snowfall) for a few years but no way I'd plan on using esbit to melt snow.

    BTW, are wood fires considered out of bounds for this?

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    BobG's SUL Winter List on 11/01/2005 17:10:20 MST Print View

    Impressive work but some caveats---
    It makes no sense to use just a VB on just the torso inside the bag--- moisture generated by the body will just find ways to the bag by other paths.
    You would need VB pants to make it work.
    A nano VBL at 2 oz. would be far more effective and it would give Dr. Jordan the added measure of warmth to use the lighter Arc X. The lighter bag will work in a snow cave. Adding the nano bivy in addition gives protection from to the bag from dripping,etc. as well as giving him an increased margin of comfort w/ the lighter bag. All for much lighter than the VB shirt.

    I think the lighter W.M. flight jacket ( but not vest) in conjunction with his other layers will suffice and be lighter than the Rab jacket. You are otherwise light in the clothing dept. Baselayer is completely missing. A light softshell top should be considered.
    The Gamma MX is referring to the Arcteryx softshell pants?

    You are neglecting Snowproof clothing for digging out a snow cave in--- potentially a very wet and chilly enterprise. W/B hardshells are great for this and work well w/ layering systems.

    The Esbit is going to be hardpressed to melt snow in a 2 liter pot. Need a different solution.

    Mitts only is a bad move --at least a liner is required for tasks that require hand dexterity as well as hand protection.

    More nitpicky-- need a candle for snow cave warmth, atmosphere and illumination. Could use 2 Photon Freedom lights for less then 1/2 the weight of the Ion. Aquamira not needed for this kind of trip.
    A 2nd pair of the same liner socks Ryan will be tromping around in under the VB sox would be more versatile--the Possum Down sox are pretty much just useful as sleeping/around camp sox.

    Nice to have a list that contains more than just the base weight items. One can begin to compute what the skinout weight could be.

    Jim-- i think wood fires above timberline are unconscionable.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/01/2005 18:29:49 MST.

    Jim Colten
    (jcolten)

    Locale: MN
    Re: BobG's SUL Winter List on 11/01/2005 18:25:53 MST Print View

    Jim-- i think wood fires above timberline are unconscionable.


    No argument there ... I didn't cue into above treeline as being part of the deal. Living 1000 miles from the nearest treeline makes it easy to forget about that factor.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    JC on BobG's SUL Winter List on 11/01/2005 18:33:58 MST Print View

    And I agree with you about an Esbit stove not really being suited for a winter trip.
    What would JC do?-----sorry, I could not resist :-)>

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    RBH Designs Proto VB Jacket on 11/01/2005 19:48:46 MST Print View

    Kevin,

    The reason the base layer and shell are missing is that if you look back earlier in this thread, you will see that Ryan suggested using the RBH prototype jacket to be used as the SOLE layer during activity and then having a parka to add when stopping -- a 2 layer winter clothing system. Why not give it a spin? The jacket would provide protection from the snow when digging a cave and it doesn't count toward the base pack weight because he would always be wearing it.

    About the parka, I have a WM Flight. I would be freezing in a Flight Jacket at 0 degrees when standing around. We should try to fit in the warmer parka.

    If the Arc X is warm enough in a snow cave, then we get back 5 ounces and can add VB pants or the liner, the extra socks, and the candle. Also, note that the list above includes the nano bivy.

    Any suggestions for cooking? It would be nice to not use a cansiter stove.

    Edited by bobg on 11/01/2005 19:56:24 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    BobG and clothing considerations on 11/01/2005 20:26:37 MST Print View

    The Flight would be warm enough as part of a layering system as would RJ's hooded version of the Cocoon pullover. I personally use a Cocoon or a micropuff over a midweight merino baselayer and under a W/B shell or over my lighter softshell jacket and I'm good sitting around in the teens.

    Is experimenting with the RBH VB shirt on a multi-day trip appropriate? I would field test it on a day trip or 2 before commiting to it. It's one thing being on the bleeding edge of product development, another being on the frostbitten edge. However I know Ryan is capable of extreme gear testing as witness RJ w/ the Vapor Mitts---
    "We had the privilege of testing RBH's flagship product, the Polarguard 3D-insulated Vapor Mitts (Figure 1). During an Arctic cold front that passed through Montana this winter, we were pleased to test the mitts during a front-porch bivouac at 27 °F -- below zero. I donned an expedition down jacket, slid into a winter-strength down sleeping bag, and cinched it up around my armpits so that my hands and arms would remain free. I slept on a closed cell foam pad and sealed myself up in a Pertex Endurance bivy sack. Thus, the only insulation between the skin of my fingers and hands and the brisk outside air was that provided by the Vapor Mitts. I lasted about six hours in the cold before the ice on my face mask began to interfere with my breathing, so I called it a night. However, the Vapor Mitts kept my fingers comfortable and they never went numb or even felt cold."

    If The RBH shirt is long enough to cover a pair of VB pants it might work for digging out a snow cave (?)and together w/ the VB sox could be used inside the bag. You add up the collective weight--don't be so tied into base weight alone. Comfort wise, I would rather have merino or capilene against my skin and don't relish the idea of working hard even in the low temps. being considered, wearing a VB suit.

    I chopped wood one winter in such conditions and tried a variety of clothing systems for the job, including wearing a Stephenson VB suit. I was warm but wet using it, and eventually chilled. The classic metablolic stabilization that is supposed to occur w/ VBs did not happen. The most comfortable ensemble I tried was wearing wool (Filson---pre-merino days)--I know, so trad. The VB suit concept also underwhelmed me on some winter mtneering trips. VB's have always worked best for me as a VBL in a bag in appropriately low enough temperatures. In fact they are a winter must-have in my kit.

    In Winter I have always used a canister or white gas stove but then I 'm almost never solo in Winter so it is the lightest solution for 2 or more. I own esbit and alcohol stoves but do not consider them practical for the Winter use I would subject them to--- melting snow and making lots of hot soups and beverages.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/01/2005 20:50:51 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    Updated SUL Winter checklist on 11/01/2005 21:06:30 MST Print View

    Kevin,

    OK, I made the change you suggested.

    1. We got rid of the RBH jacket
    2. Added the NANO sleeping bag VB liner
    3. Added a windshirt and baselayer
    4. Added possumdown gloves and moved the mitts to the extra clothing
    5. Got rid of the Esbit and added a Vargo Jet Ti and the weight of an empty cansiter
    7. Got rid of the Ion and added a Photon Freedom
    8. I moved the sun glasses to the worn section because I figure he'll be wearing them all day.
    9. Got rid of the stuff sack for the essentials, he can put them in the kangaroo pocket.
    10. Got rid of the Arc Expedition and added back the Arc X
    11. Got rid of the Rab Neutrino and added the Cocoon (glad it's not me hanging out in the Cocoon at 0 degrees :) )
    12. Added DriDucks rain suit for protection when building the shelter
    13. Got rid of the lid on the pot (my scale read 1.75oz for the lid) and added a 0.25 oz foil lid
    14. Got rid of the Aqua Mira - But wouldn't he save fuel by treating the melted water instead of boiling it?
    15. Got rid of the PossumDown socks and added the liner socks.

    Clothing
    06.00 Smartwool Aero Long Sleeve Crew
    02.50 Montane Aero Wind Shirt
    01.50 Outdoor Research PowerStretch Balaclava
    03.00 Nike Spandex Running Short Tights
    18.00 Arc'Teryx Gamma MX
    01.20 PossumDown Gloves

    Footwear
    02.00 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
    03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
    24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
    16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
    35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

    Other Items Worn / Carried
    01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCode Plus lanyard
    01.30 Suunto X6
    05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles
    00.50 Sunglasses

    103.70 ounces
    Total worn or carried 6.48 pounds

    Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
    16.00 BMW Arc X
    04.00 BMW Vapor NANO Bivy
    02.00 BMW NANO Sleeping Bag VB Liner
    03.00 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso (Cut down by 0.7 oz)
    05.00 Gossamer Gear ThinLight 3/8" (Cut down by 0.3 oz)
    05.75 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel

    09.00 BMW Cocoon Pullover
    02.00 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
    04.00 BMW FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
    04.80 DriDucks Micropore Jacket (size S)
    03.70 DriDucks Micropore Pants (size M)

    Pack
    03.70 Gossamer Gear G6 Whisper

    Cook/Hydration
    04.25 Antigravity Gear 2 Qt. Hard Anodized Pot (No lid)
    00.25 Foil lid
    00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
    00.30 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
    02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
    00.20 Plastic grocery bag
    02.70 Vargo Jet Ti
    04.00 Weight of empty MSR cansiter

    Essentials
    00.22 Photom Freedom Micro LED Light
    01.00 Blister & minor would care supplies
    00.50 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares - 1 / day
    00.50 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle


    80.07 ounces
    Total base pack weight 5.00 pounds

    Edited by bobg on 11/01/2005 21:14:17 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Bob's SUL list. on 11/01/2005 21:19:24 MST Print View

    Wow, Bob--between you and John typing out these lists.... kudos. Meir? nevermind.

    I would like to hear from Ryan on this list as well
    as one that is RBH VB centric.

    With this list, I would probably go heavier on the baselayer (mediumweight) and go for a hooded Cocoon ( which the esteemed publisher owns) .
    Perhaps back to a 1Liter pot.

    Guys--don't cave so easily on the VB question based just on my experiences. What do the VB proponents think?

    Edited by kdesign on 11/01/2005 21:46:28 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Modified Bob SUL Winter List on 11/01/2005 22:12:52 MST Print View

    For the sake of arguement---
    Clothing (worn)
    11.00 Icebreaker Bodyfit 260 L/S Tech Top
    (10.00) (RBH prototype VB Shirt)
    06.10Dropstoppers Micropore Jacket (size M/L)
    01.50 Outdoor Research PowerStretch Balaclava
    03.00 Nike Spandex Running Short Tights
    18.00 Arc'Teryx Gamma MX Softshell Pants
    01.20 PossumDown Gloves
    04.00 BMW FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
    Footwear
    01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
    03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
    24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
    16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
    35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

    Other Items Worn / Carried
    01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCode Plus lanyard
    01.80 Suunto X6
    05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles
    00.50 Sunglasses

    133.00 ounces
    Total worn 8.3 pounds

    Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
    16.00 BMW Arc X
    04.00 BMW Vapor NANO Bivy
    02.00 BMW NANO Sleeping Bag VB Liner
    03.00 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso (Cut down by 0.7 oz)
    05.00 Gossamer Gear ThinLight 3/8" (Cut down by 0.3 oz)
    05.75 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel

    09.00 BMW Cocoon hooded Pullover
    01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks


    04.50 Golite Reed Pants(size M)

    Pack
    03.70 Gossamer Gear G6 Whisper

    Cook/Hydration
    02.45 Trangia 1 L. SaucePan (No lid)
    00.20 Foil lid
    00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
    01.50 Firestarter (candle)/ matches in Ziploc
    02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
    00.20 Plastic grocery bag
    02.70 Vargo Jet Ti
    04.00 Weight of empty MSR cansiter

    Essentials
    00.44 Photom Freedom Micro LED Light (2)
    01.00 Blister & minor wound care supplies
    00.50 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares - 1 / day
    00.50 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle


    71.14 ounces
    Total base pack weight 4.44 pounds

    Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 13:42:01 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Modified Bob SUL Winter List on 11/01/2005 23:11:24 MST Print View

    Nice List, Kevin and Bob!

    I've got a couple of questions, concerns, and suggestions to stir into the pot....

    I'm worried that the clothing system will be kind of an on/off system as far as exertion goes. The windshirt/PS balaclava will keep him warm if he's moving fast; the cocoon will work for rest breaks. But there is no middle ground. I'd like to see a Beanie added and/or change the windshirt to a hooded one like a Marmot Ion. Well, on second thought there is that Driducks Jacket...
    [comments?]

    How do you envision the cocoon used in conjunction with the VBL in the sleep system? I'm guessing that you intend the cocoon hood as primary head-warmth layer in the sleep system. But would that mean that it must be worn, rather than draped, and put it inside the VBL?

    I suggest that a Reynolds Mylar Roasting bag be used for food storage instead of the grocery bag -- waterproof, more durable, no real weight penalty.

    I like the Dri-Ducks layers -- Wind protection, plus waterproof for snowcave digging. The pants are very fragile, though. They might get cut to shreds working on the snow cave. Maybe Golite Reed pants might be a bit more durable.

    I guess he could dig a cook pit for a windscreen. Otherwise we might want to include some foil.

    Others on this thread have made a good case for more robust lighting. But, if we're going to limit Ryan to just a Photon light, how about giving him a second one as a backup?

    Best Regards,

    -MIke

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/01/2005 23:27:33 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Re. MM critique Winter SUL list on 11/01/2005 23:27:37 MST Print View

    Good points--will answer tomorrow if somebody doesn't do it 1st.
    Tired---halloween party action has caught up to me--me sleep

    Roger Caffin
    (rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
    Re: Modified Bob SUL Winter List on 11/02/2005 00:03:44 MST Print View

    <soapbox>
    Why does everyone insist on carting a thundering great heavy Nalgene bottle around? It weighs a ton. Well, 2.8 oz.

    I carry one (or two for 2 people) 1.25 L (2.6 pt) PE bottles from fizzy drinks. They last just as well, and weigh 43 gm (1.5 oz) each.

    And why the alcohol gel?? What on earth do you do with it? I never carry anything like that.

    0.5 oz of paper towel for TP??? Surely genuine TP for two nights would weigh less?

    Why 1 oz for a whistle? Is he meant to play tunes? I never carry one. Very few people in Australia ever bother.

    5.4 oz for trekking poles??? Hey guys: some of us go out without these things. A recent marketing invention. Free the hands!

    5.75 oz for a Snow Claw?? Why? I assume with that raingear he won't be caving, so why bother? Another recent marketing invention. We just stomp a site down and put up the shelter.

    Micropore jacket in a size S? Ah - is Ryan that small, when he's got some warmth-layers on?

    Me, I would scrap the 1 oz of firestarters/matches and take a mini butane lighter. Or add a piezo-ignitor to the stove.

    Essentials: since when have blisters been an assumption? If your footwear fits properly yopu don't get blisters. If you do get blisters, you have the wrong footwear.

    Cheers
    Roger Caffin
    (Yes, I have been ski touring and snow camping for a long time. Foul weather, more often than not.)

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Roger's Comments on 11/02/2005 00:31:02 MST Print View

    Hi Roger-

    Welcome to the party!

    Roger Caffin writes:

    >> Why does everyone insist on carting a thundering great heavy Nalgene bottle around? It weighs a ton. Well, 2.8 oz.

    I think the Nalgene "canteen" discussed is a 3L wide mouth collapsable bladder, not a hard-sided bottle.

    >> 0.5 oz of paper towel for TP??? Surely genuine TP for two nights would weigh less?

    I didn't catch the TP on the list. Not needed in Winter -- snowballs are vastly superior IMHO. Besides, you can't (or shouldn't) bury TP in the snow. I don't know about Montana trail etiquette, but here in enlightened Idaho, if you want a "fresh" Spring, you should dig down to soil, or pack it out. :-O

    >> 5.75 oz for a Snow Claw?? Why? I assume with that raingear he won't be caving, so why bother? Another recent marketing invention. We just stomp a site down and put up the shelter.

    We might be crazy, but we actually do expect Ryan to Cave it with that raingear....

    Cheers,

    -Mike

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/02/2005 00:54:03 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    rinsing the SUL soapbox on 11/02/2005 00:46:45 MST Print View

    Roger
    -we generally use poles w/ snowshoes, especially in mixed and steep terrain.
    -Ryan will have to Cave to use such a light sleeping system in the anticipated low temperature ranges.
    -having wide mouthed water bladders is arguable.
    -The small micropore jacket is a good point and should be sized up.
    -For blisters(if any) he can use duct tape. Even w/ good fitting footwear some of us get blisters and I probably get more of them in the Winter.
    -You can't carry a tune? And Australians don't care to?;-)
    -Butane lighters often have trouble working in extremely cold temps.
    -TP is arguable but alcohol hand gel is great for sanitary purposes (like after wiping) .

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    MM SUL questions and points on 11/02/2005 00:57:54 MST Print View

    Martin--I think the beanie isn't a bad idea but there is the Cocoon hood, the hardshell hood and the balaclava. I'm agnostic about a hooded windshell --in fact if we go Propore, why have a windshell at all? For sleeping, the Cocoon hood would be worn w/ the VBL but the jacket part is not---it becomes the pillow. No insulated garments should be worn within the VBL.
    Roasting bag or Gossamer gear's pack liner would be better than a grocery bag. You are right about the hardshell pants (although they only have to survive 3 days). Yes, there should be 2 photons and that's been added to my modded list of Bob's.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 01:19:42 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: MM SUL questions and points on 11/02/2005 01:03:41 MST Print View

    Kevin writes:

    >> the Cocoon hood would be worn w/ the VBL but the jacket part is not---it becomes the pillow.

    I haven't seen a hooded cocoon. Is the hood detachable? Or, is there some kind of quantum/PGD origami that can fold it into a hood and pillow?

    >> No insulated garments should be worn within the VBL.

    Sure, that's why I brought it up.

    Cheers,

    -Mike

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/02/2005 01:20:09 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Cocoon hooded pullover on 11/02/2005 01:10:26 MST Print View

    I haven't seen the hooded pullover either, but it's something that Ryan has mentioned having in the past ( or am I completely loopy--don't answer that).
    I believe that it had a fixed hood and yes, origami would describe it. I've done it with my hooded down jackets.

    Yes, found in RJ's article on "Breaking the 5lb. Barrier"--lighter than I thought--9 oz.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 01:14:29 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    No windshirt? on 11/02/2005 06:41:59 MST Print View

    What if we get rid of the Montane Aero and use the DriDucks insead? Then he doesn't have to pack the W/B jacket. I have found the DriDucks to be quite comfortable during activity even in warmer temperatures.

    We could then replace the DriDucks pants with the GoLite Reed Pants, add a PossumDown Beanie Hat, move the Mitts back to packed, and still weight in at 4.75 pounds. 4.85 with a 2L pot.

    If we don't include the Beanie and leave the Mitts as worn, then we could add the Neutrino instead of the Cocoon.

    Also, the weight above for the liner socks is wrong. According to ProLiteGear.com, the Smartwool Liner socks are 1.7 oz in size Large. So medium is probaby 1.5 oz
    http://www.prolitegear.com/smartwool_sock_liner_sock_pl.html

    Edited by bobg on 11/02/2005 07:02:04 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    BobG and more clothing/ equip. considerations on 11/02/2005 08:36:00 MST Print View

    Let's see. We are missing a base layer for the lower body---something LW like Patagonia SW tights or Sahalie tights. Not just for a little warmth but to be worn inside the VBL for comfort (sleeping directly agaainst coated synthetics is a yucky experience).

    So, do we really need a 2qt. pot--- won't half that do?
    Don't know about needing heavier Neutrino.

    Finally, if Ryan is comfortable w/ this we can (gasp) sub out the Merino baselayer top and use the RBH proto VB shirt thingee w/ only a oz. addition of weight and still use the Nano VBL for sleeping purposes. Unless my earlier postings have scared people off this idea.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: No windshirt (and other stuff) on 11/02/2005 09:22:49 MST Print View

    Bob writes:

    >> What if we get rid of the Montane Aero and use the DriDucks insead?

    and Kevin writes:

    >> why have a windshell at all?

    I can see conditions where you'd want both a windshirt, and the outer driducks layer -- Medium activity where the cocoon would be too warm; high activity but windy, etc. One advantage of having both windshirt and Driducks is that the windshirt can be a snug fit to reduce flapping and "bellows effect" heat loss. (The driducks has a very loose cut.)

    Kevin suggests:

    >> the cocoon jacket becomes a hooded pillow...

    I'd love to hear more about this idea Kevin -- very clever. Can you post a description and/or photo? I am concerned that this will leave no torso insulation to use with the sleep system and *seems* like a high weight price to pay for a pillow. But, I'm still intrigued...

    Kevin writes:

    >> We are missing a base layer for the lower body.

    Oops, missed that one! Yeah, bare skin against that nano VBL isn't going to be much fun.

    Cheers,

    -Mike

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    MM--Cocoon as pillow on 11/02/2005 10:01:27 MST Print View

    >> the cocoon jacket becomes a hooded pillow...

    "I'd love to hear more about this idea Kevin -- very clever. Can you post a description and/or photo? I am concerned that this will leave no torso insulation to use with the sleep system and *seems* like a high weight price to pay for a pillow. But, I'm still intrigued..."

    Sorry, you don't get torso insulation within the VBL although one can drape clothing between the VBL and the bag.

    OK--about the hooded insulated jacket (w/ attached hood) as a pillow--it's obvious ,once you try it-- imagine putting just the hood over your head, rest of jacket is a cape draping on back, fold or roll up ( or put in stuffbag) jacket portion up behind hood --you're done. I've done this on several occasions w/ an old Marmot down sweater to which I sewed on a hood to modify it for colder weather usage.

    Incidentally, the Cocoon pullover is the basis for my sleeping pillow on most trips, where I don't need to use it to extend the temp. range of my bag.
    I also think that I should either modify my Cocoon pullover w/ it's own hood or hope that BMW will eventually release a hooded model.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 10:13:19 MST.

    John S.
    (jshann) - F
    VBL on 11/02/2005 11:36:52 MST Print View

    Like Kevin said, layer the jacket over the vbl for even more loft, both layers of the flight would be alot.

    Edited by jshann on 11/02/2005 11:38:50 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    SUL winter death march list updated on 11/02/2005 11:52:50 MST Print View

    I updated the last list posted (the modified Bob built on the shoulders of John's) with corrected weights (sox, X6 watch, and other erratum) added Reed pants--a good idea. Changed Micropore to Dropstoppers carried on this Site w/ improved sizing. Aero windshirt dropped.
    There are different ideas about what an appropriate
    insulated Jacket/Parka should be used with posters offering the WM Flight Jacket and/or vest, Rab Neutrino, and hooded Cocoon. More discussion on this?

    "Modified Bob SUL Winter List"

    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/1435/index.html?skip_to_post=10312#10312

    Remember--this is a working document. Slice and dice, cut and paste, or start from scratch. It's an attempt at synthesis---yep the 'ole group think.
    Yikes, design by committee!

    Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 12:53:12 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: VBL on 11/02/2005 12:08:49 MST Print View

    John writes:

    >> layer the jacket over the vbl for even more loft...

    I think we might have a misunderstanding here. Kevin suggested using a hooded insulating jacket (a special BMW Cocoon with an attached hood). The hood would be used for head insulation in the sleep system, making it hard to drape the jacket over the VBL torso.

    I totally agree that if you didn't have to wear the hood, a jacket could be draped over the VBL. (I even suggested it on my Oct. 20 post on this thread.)

    Kevin writes:

    >> imagine putting just the hood over your head, rest of jacket is a cape...

    Cool Idea! I'll have to give that one a try.

    Just to throw out something else -- If we used a torso insulating piece w/ a separate hood, maybe we could get the best of both worlds (head insulation and torso insulation draped over the VBL). Or maybe we could go hoodless and rely on the PS balaclava and perhaps a Possumdown Beanie.

    Best Regards,

    -Mike

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/02/2005 12:28:09 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    SUL gear list dissatisfactions on 11/02/2005 12:40:03 MST Print View

    I'm unhappy about the activewear component
    of RJ's clothing system--for the body, anyway.
    I'd like to get in a softshell jacket somehow.
    right now it's MW merino and the Micropore when he's working. The Insulated jacket is for rest stops and camp.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 12:50:19 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    SUL march of death on 11/02/2005 13:09:02 MST Print View

    Kevin,

    You forgot to move the Dropstoppers to the worn clothing section. If he doesn't have a windshirt, I assume he'll be wearing the Dropstoppers all the time.

    Also, from what I could get from the article that mentioned the hooded pullover, the hood is not insulated, it's like a windshirt hood. We should probably add back the PossumDown Beanie.

    Bob

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Bob / March o Death on 11/02/2005 13:37:34 MST Print View

    I seem to remember that there was an insulated hood prototype somewhere if not the one in that article. Also in the newer Polarguard Delta and not with Primaloft. But if I'm mistaken, then yes, we need the beanie. Also, if there is no such jacket, I would reconsider the whole jacket approach.

    You are right about the dropstoppers-I'll update.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 18:44:04 MST.

    Roger Caffin
    (rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
    Re: rinsing the SUL soapbox on 11/02/2005 14:53:19 MST Print View

    -we generally use poles w/ snowshoes, especially in mixed and steep terrain.
    I have used snowshoes. I ended up carrying my ski stocks on my pack part of the time. But I don't use trekking poles in summer either. Excess weight!

    -Ryan will have to Cave to use such a light sleeping system in the anticipated low temperature ranges.
    Hum - having camped at -15 C (5 F) myself, I dispute that claim. And the water problem in a cave creates weight problems of its own. Are we still following conventional heavyweight logic?

    -For blisters(if any) he can use duct tape. Even w/ good fitting footwear some of us get blisters and I probably get more of them in the Winter.
    Then fix your footwear. Blisters mean your footwear is not correct.

    -You can't carry a tune? And Australians don't care to?;-)
    Dodging the point: it's excess weight.

    -Butane lighters often have trouble working in extremely cold temps.
    Never have any problem. I just stick it in my pocket while unpacking my pack.

    -TP is arguable but alcohol hand gel is great for sanitary purposes (like after wiping) .
    Excess weight again. You could try washing with water. I thought you guys were after SUL?

    Cheers
    Roger Caffin

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    rinsing the SUL soapbox--ready to rumble? on 11/02/2005 15:16:51 MST Print View

    Roger --how about details of your sleeping/shelter system at -15 C. Was there wind? Were you prepared for a storm? I've bivouaced at 6000 meters on a ridge in a halfbag and Parka in temps. approaching what you were in but with nasty winds with just a crevice in rock for limited shelter. It was survivable but it was not a pleasant experience. I think we are looking for a little better than just surviving the experience.

    If I or others are following heavyweight logic still we are proposing a system that provides a base weight of less than 5 lbs. Why don't you give it a crack?

    Yes, you can snowshoe w/o poles but like a chicken flying, you can't do it efficiently.Not on steep ground. Yes, he will have to carry an extremely lightweight pair some of the time, as will he the snowshoes.

    The other little incidentals add up to about 3 ozs. Before quibbling with these items we should worry more about the bigger picture.

    Yes, I guess the sense of humor is excess weight.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Winter SUL list--Another area for musing on on 11/02/2005 15:19:41 MST Print View

    That G6 is going to be hard pressed to contain what must be carried on this jaunt. i've brought this up before.
    Any thoughts?

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    G6 capacity on 11/02/2005 15:27:40 MST Print View

    Kevin,

    With regard to everything in the "pack" list, I believe that will all fit with the exception of the ThinLight which will have to be bungeed on. Food and water should go in there no problem as well. Carrying the snowshoes + poles if he has to is another story.

    Bob

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: G6 capacity on 11/02/2005 16:50:24 MST Print View

    using some of the webbing loops on the G6, i bungee a Nightlight Torso pad to the pack (ThinLight pad might be "cut" in a couple of places and folded similarly for "bungeeing" - if necessary duct tape can hold the sections together). makes a nice "poor man's" pad pocket. obviously, since there is no hip belt, there is no need to xfr wt and this arrangement wouldn't do that anyways. it's just a nice spot to place the pad and frees up a lot of interior space.

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    Winter SUL list- Ryan's March of Doom on 11/02/2005 17:10:41 MST Print View

    I've been looking over the Ryan's SUL list for his March of Doom and I have some questions. First, I presume that the 2 Gossamer Gear pads will be used inside the bivy which will prevent them from absorbing any water. The Torso Length NightLight is only 29" long and the 59" long 3/8" ThinLight Pad is supposed to be used under the NightLight with the rest of the body (the legs) lying over the partially emptied pack. I am wondering will those 2 pads provide sufficient insulation for close to freezing temperatures in a Snow Cave?

    Will Ryan have sufficient insulation, in particular for his legs? The only insulating layer for his legs are the Arc'Teryx Gamma MX Softshell Pants. Will the GoLite Reed Pants add sufficient added warmth or should we also include VBL pants or some additional insulating pants like the BMW Cocoon?

    Also, even for only 2 days, will 1 MSR (is this the smaller or the larger canister?) gas canister supply sufficient fuel for hot meals,hot beverages, and melting sufficient snow for water?

    Rich

    Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/02/2005 20:58:04 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Richard on Ryan's March of Doom on 11/02/2005 17:20:35 MST Print View

    All excellant questions--I hope someone else will take a stab at answering them in depth.

    I will just say that in part it will depend on Ryan's rate of metabolism and acclimitization to cold conditions.

    Alan Garber
    (altadude) - F
    Re: Winter SUL on 11/02/2005 17:29:30 MST Print View

    I was wondering how far what your plans are for this "SUL" winter expedition?

    I worry about your safety. Exposure in the summer is potentially life-threatening but in the winter it is much more likely life-threatening. I just can't conceive how you can do it safely with such a light load.

    Will you be travelling in an avalanche prone region? I guess is you are caught in a slide you don't need a beacon, shovel or probe if you are solo :)

    At a minimum I would think you need a zero degree bag(I assume you are doing a true winter in January) and a bivy which is hard to keep under 3 lbs. Even if you build a snow cave or trench you still need to keep your down bag dry. Even if you do a down jacket and 20 deg bag and bivy you're talking 3 lbs.........

    Over the years I have lightened my load (I no longer use my 900 lb TNF backpack).....I have a better down bag and I have learned tons from this and the backpacking.net and I travel lighter but I could never see myself travelling SUL in winter......

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Altadude and the Gearlist of Doom on 11/02/2005 17:43:24 MST Print View

    Here's something for you to read Alan on the subject of light loads in Winter--granted Ryan Jordan will be attempting an even lighter system.
    But with improved gear and some different assumptions concerning the gear and personal performance.

    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00277.html

    I can only assume that Dr. Jordan will be selective in his routefinding---he's a family man and doesn't seem to me to be suicidal.:-)>

    Edited by kdesign on 11/02/2005 17:48:01 MST.

    John S.
    (jshann) - F
    Re: Saving Ryan's Privates: Update on 11/02/2005 23:16:23 MST Print View

    Winter SUL Gear List updated to change Nalgene cantene size, cookpot, and sleep headwear.

    Total- 79.2 oz (4.95 pounds)

    Edited by jshann on 11/02/2005 23:18:15 MST.

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: Re: Saving Ryan's Privates: Update on 11/03/2005 02:56:21 MST Print View

    John,

    looks like "TheGList" is really shaping up - looks good.

    what do you, or anyone, think about substituting a Petzl TikkaXP for the Eos (both are very fine headlamps). i believe that the XP is ~0.3oz lighter and the flip-up diffuser might be appreciated inside a snow cave - a whole lot of reflected light i would imagine. also, the wt you listed for the Eos and mine, above, for the XP - are those with Li or alkaline batts? i think that the wts are with alkaline, so we want Dr. J to use Li batts, right? it's cold, plus if y'all decided to stick with the Eos, you'll get longer regulated output with Li batts (up to 4x longer) before the Eos switches to unregulated output. the Li batts, are also ~0.13oz per batt lighter, so another ~0.39oz saved for the 3 batts.

    just some thoughts.

    ------------------------------------------------
    read somewhere someone objected to Alc. Gel.

    ok. that's fine.

    i won't be shakin' hands with the fella or eatin' anything he prepares/touches. however, for a short solo trip, less of an issue.

    [really did enjoy his article on "Stove Theory" though. very well written and informative.]

    questions: does reacted AqM have a half-life? if so, it's more than sufficient to kill Crypto after 4hrs contact time. however, if it does have a half-life, what is the half-life of AqM after it is reacted and water is treated? depending upon the ans. to these questions, using prev. treated water as a disinfectant (and not solely as a means of irrigating a wound) may not be advisable. sure the water is clean, but you may not "kill" any buggers with it - depending upon it's half-life.

    also, more to the Alc. Gel point, if it does have a half-life, then if you mess on your hands, well, maybe water treated the prev. evening won't do for disinfecting the "schmutz" (yes, kevin, i know what "schmutz" really means. i'm using it in a more generic sense) after the next morning's toilet accident?? ... oh...well...there's always some sphagnum moss for disinfecting purposes - if you can find it; or, there's also the equally implausible "hey...you in the neighboring snow-cave, can you spare some alc. gel?" a little Alc. Gel is lookin' a bit better right now, right?!! use the wt. saved by using Li batts - see above- to incl. a bit 'o Alc. Gel in the kit. finally...

    in reality, how many times do we "mess", not very often, right? how many times would we admit it, even less perhaps??? how many times would i want someone confessing this to me - NEVER!!!

    i always carry Alc. Gel.; though, perhaps more than i really need.

    i am serious, however, about finding out the half-life of reacted AqM. so, if you know it, please Post a reply.

    just some more thoughts.

    Edited by pj on 11/03/2005 04:42:53 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    John Shannon's winter UL list of death2/ snowcave living on 11/03/2005 12:27:53 MST Print View

    I like the Nunatak balaclava/Flight Jacket combo.
    I will have to say that this all down-insulated clothing solution would be problematic for snow cave living in Pacific NW conditions. A low humidy winter environment/very dry snow is what will make it possible. But the warmth/weight ratio of above is so good.
    How about listing some of the worn clothing that is being considered. We have some on your list , some on the BobG list ( on p.8).... Time to consolidate?

    What do you think about the 1L Trangia saucepan w/ a foil lid (2.5 oz.) instead of the Evernew pot?

    And now more on Snowcaves---
    For a very small snowcave--which is what Ryan will most likely be constructing if he is to be on the move---it is imperative that the interior surfaces be glazed to prevent dripping which would be a huge bummer for RJ anytime he is not ensconsed in his Bivy.The interior has to be first scraped as smooth as possible and then bring in the stove, melt a pot of snow and boil, the moisture of which will then condense on the ceiling and walls and freeze, helping to "seal" the surface.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/03/2005 13:10:00 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Leg Layers (again) on 11/03/2005 13:25:53 MST Print View

    Ok, I know I was the guy who steered us into the Gamma MX plus Golite Reed combo. But, the more I thought about it, the more I like something like Kevin's original layer system:

    >> Bottoms--- synthetic baselayer - Golite LW C-Thru
    Tights (4 oz.)
    --- softshell pant-Golite Propel (10 oz.)
    --- W/B hardshell pant-ID eVENT pant
    (10 oz.)
    <<

    If we need waterproof pants robust enough to kneel in while digging a snowcave, then it's lighter to go with a decent hardshell rather than a deluxe softshell (the MX) and a flimsy waterproof overpant.

    Plus, since we agreed that Ryan will need some kind of leg base layer for the VBL, the base+Gamma MX+Reed combo is getting pretty heavy.

    I know it's going in circles, but maybe we should reconsider something like Kevin's original suggestion. It's lighter, simpler, and more robust. If you want to trim it even further, you could call the Propel pants a base layer (assuming they wouldn't get too soggy in the VBL) and eliminate the lightweight C-thru tights. Or, go with a mid or heavy weight (depending on expected temps) C-Thru, Powerdry, or Merino layer and skip both the Propel and lightweight C-thru.

    Whatcha think?

    -Mike

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/03/2005 13:33:39 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    The Leg Layer's connected to... SUL Winter GL on 11/03/2005 18:22:49 MST Print View

    Well Martin, I certainly thought my system was a good way to go.

    I really hope some other people can jump in and stir the pot.

    This has been a great thread at times--I know it's going to inspire me to modify my kit this Winter.
    Which incidently has just started in my neck of the Woods---blizzard in the Cascades--wahoo!

    Edited by kdesign on 11/03/2005 18:24:15 MST.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: The Leg Layer's connected to... SUL Winter GL on 11/04/2005 00:03:40 MST Print View

    Head spinning, great discussion!

    Quick comment: the Cocoon Belay Jacket prototype, which is being discussed in various degrees of vagueness above, has an insulated hood, the hood is insulated, the insulation throughout is the same as the Cocoon pullover, quantum lining, eVENT shell...ho ho ho!!!! That'll shake it up. it's 14 oz. I also have a WM Flight Vest (5) and Jacket (10 oz), Rab Quantum Neutrino (18), Patagonia DAS (25).

    The 9 oz Cocoon vaporware from a pvs gear list was an old prototype with an uninsulated hood and was even thinner insulation.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Cocoon Belay Jacket Prototype on 11/04/2005 00:47:12 MST Print View

    Hmmmm....

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    Cocoon Belay Jacket Prototype on 11/04/2005 01:28:22 MST Print View

    Ryan,

    Really Cocoon Belay Jacket insulated with Polarguard 3D with Quantum inner and Event outer. I want one and so will a lot of other members and for only 14 oz or so. Will this have a full zip, possibly weatherproof?

    Rich

    Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/04/2005 01:31:08 MST.

    Roger Caffin
    (rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
    Re: rinsing the SUL soapbox--ready to rumble? on 11/04/2005 02:24:35 MST Print View

    > how about details of your sleeping/shelter system at -15 C. Was there wind? Were you prepared for a storm?
    Well, conditions in australia are often very different from America. We CAN get -15 C overnight, and do, but we can also get 100 kph winds, sleet and rain overnight on the same trip. And this is in the snow.
    In addition, I always travel with my wife, and she expects some small elements of comfort at the end of a hard cold day. So, we tent. A very lightweight 2-man 4-season tent: I made it myself. But it blocks the wind. It is interesting that when you add together the weights of two tarps, two ground sheets, two bivy bags etc, they often come to more than my tent.
    And we carry 3/4 length Therm-a-Rests to sleep on in the snow. Damn it, I'm 60, and expect some comfort!
    Otherwise, I wear silk coveralls at night and sleep under my SB used as a quilt. My bag has a hood, and this goes right over my head. Very nice and warm. My padded trousers go at the end of the mat for my feet.
    In fact, I prefer some wind: it keeps the inside of the tent dry. In still air the hoarfrost builds up, and I have to scrape it down in the morning :-)

    Snowshoes without poles: our country is more rolling, so we don't get the steep stuff. Anyhow, snowshoes lack that certain elan which XC skis have. Most times, we ski. Lightweight 3-pin stuff.

    Joshua Mitchell
    (jdmitch) - F

    Locale: Kansas
    Cocoon Belay? on 11/04/2005 07:28:41 MST Print View

    Gah... I can't wait until all the details of the new gear are released... grrr... any chance of getting a sneak peek pic of the prototype, DrJ?

    Aaron Sorensen
    (awsorensen) - MLife

    Locale: South of Forester Pass
    Re: Cocoon Belay? on 11/04/2005 19:32:33 MST Print View

    My 2 cents.
    The only way to go super ultra light and still be warm enough is to have some homemade gear in there. You can barely get under 6# with store bought stuff and here we are sending this poor man out with gear that is not suited for this experience.
    This is why no can agree with any thing especially in tiring to get under 5#.
    First of all, I don't see how everybody doesn't have a problem with the 8oz of pad he is carrying, or 1/10th the weight. He will be much warmer on a balloon bed with a cut down nightlite pad on each side. Then the issue of the G6 not being large enough won't be an issue.
    Besides, if you look at anybody's UL gear list that is under 5#, you will realize that the only way they got there is with homemade gear. I would think that if Ryan already has the gear made, than he can use it but not make anything special for the trip. I'm sure Ryan himself is looking at the list and thinking, my gosh if I had this and that, It would be much lighter and I would be much warm.

    Last, if we are really going to push the point of store bought gear than we really need to be lenient on the clothing and call about half of what we have as base weight as being worn clothing.

    Edited by awsorensen on 11/04/2005 19:33:07 MST.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: Re: Cocoon Belay? on 11/04/2005 19:46:59 MST Print View

    Aaron makes some outstanding comments.

    I don't mind using prototypes that are slated to eventually hit the market, like the Cocoon Belay Jacket, but do let's try to keep this with gear that is available from commercial manufacturers by anybody. Custom or prototypes are fine, like the 2mm neoprene overboots / RBH VB jacket, but let's keep the homemade stuff out for now. Anything I've offered up is all fair game.

    I want this exercise to be as accessible as possible to everyone involved.

    Also, don't get stuck on 5# as winter SUL. SUL in winter may need a different definition. Maybe this forum is part of how we come to that?

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Pads in winter on 11/04/2005 20:22:52 MST Print View

    i have snow camped often w/ just Mt. Washington pads. What's the big deal? Yes, the one's suggested are cut to the bone, but doubled up will work for the torso. I would add a 1/8-1/4" evasote pad to supplement the leg feet area along w/ the pack.
    Fitting the pads on the G6 was never a issue for me---it's the other stuff I worry about having room for.

    It's not that people are not agreeing on stuff, it's that the people doing most of the posting on this thread see this project as the challenge it is and are not settled in their own minds on the definative solutions. Plus, Ryan keeps introducing new prototype equipment to consider....grrr.

    So, Ryan--getting cold feet about 5# ? Seriously, though, could you elaborate more on what you were saying in your last post.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/04/2005 20:43:47 MST.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: Pads in winter on 11/04/2005 20:38:17 MST Print View

    I don't mind going 5, 4, 7, whatever. I'm just saying, don't get hung up on the tenths of ounces to reach some partly arbitrary weight goal. As mentioned earlier, the FSO is probably a better indication of 'how much can you do without'?

    Aaron Sorensen
    (awsorensen) - MLife

    Locale: South of Forester Pass
    Re: Re: Pads in winter on 11/05/2005 12:54:53 MST Print View

    O.K., lets get one thing straight, Ryan is starting the trip with a sub-5# base weight. I just don't want to feel partially responsible when they find him 3 weeks later as a frozen popsicle. It's easy to go sub-5. Just wrap him up in a polycryo ground sheet cocoon filled with primaloft. Then the base weight will just be 3.7oz, (the weight of the G6).
    I would rather see you do this than not go sub-5#.
    You have a very good point about the gear being accessible to every one and the list is looking top notch.
    I would like to have you carry a PDA so you can give us live updates during the trip.
    One last thing. I don't see what's with all the commotion about the food weight per day. The food is not counted as base weight so you should be able to carry what ever you fell like. I would believe you could do it with 17oz of food, but when the final list comes out and you see that you may not be as warm as you want to be, that extra food will come in very handy for consuming some calories before you go to sleep for warmth.

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    Food on 11/05/2005 13:32:14 MST Print View

    I would not recommend only 17 oz of food a day in weather conditions around 0 degrees F. I would definitely lean more toward 1.5 to 2 lbs a day.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: Re: Re: Pads in winter on 11/05/2005 13:47:24 MST Print View

    >> I would like to have you carry a PDA so you can give us live updates during the trip.

    I am thinking about adding a sat/pda system as part of my journal kit so dispatches can be automatically posted on BPL live from the field.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    PDA on 11/05/2005 14:09:58 MST Print View

    carry it in a holster on your belt to be counted as weight worn or carried instead of weight in pack

    Edited by ryanf on 11/05/2005 14:10:38 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Food, Pads, FSO: warning--didactic rant on 11/05/2005 14:57:55 MST Print View

    Let's not reinvent the wheel on the food issue, everybody. We had this out before, leaning towards 32 oz. and this figure has been used on the various gearlists.

    I'm beginning to suspect that some people posting their pronuncimientos on this thread may have very limited snow camping or winter mountaineering experience---fess up, please! I would like to see posters back up assertions of "this approach may work" or" that may not work" with some evidence -- like personal experience or a good secondhand source.

    Let's not try sleight of hand tricks like moving obvious base weight stuff to the "worn" column.

    Journalistic equipment should not be counted towards the weight count, This is between Ryan and his pack capacity

    Finally, let's declare moral victory with a sub-20# Full Skin Out weight.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/05/2005 15:02:25 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Food, Pads, FSO: warning--didactic rant on 11/05/2005 15:04:06 MST Print View

    Kevin is right.

    we should not only be working towards a sub 5lb base load but also have a skin out weight limit as well. but I dont see the problem about puting things in the worn/carried list to break the base load problem, as long as it is not weighing down the skin out weight

    who said it wouldnt be a challenge

    Edited by ryanf on 11/05/2005 15:13:02 MST.

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    Lack of Winter Camping experience on 11/05/2005 15:12:54 MST Print View

    Kevin,

    I admit having little or no winter camping experience. However, I agree regarding the food, and that was why I said 1.5- 2 lbs per day, certainly feel 2 lbs is much more appropriate. However, I did pose some legitimate questions about having sufficient insulation, particularly the pants (and possibly the sleeping pads). I do not think that these concerns have been properly addressed. I am cerainly concerned about Ryan's safety.

    Rich

    Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/05/2005 15:30:28 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    on Winter experience on 11/05/2005 15:24:46 MST Print View

    My wrath ( such as it is) was not directed at you, Richard. And, I'm glad we agree about the food.
    Nor am I attempting to censor anyone (of any experience level) from participating on this thread.
    I just want people to reflect on their reccomendations and back up their assertions.
    I think we are all concerned about Ryan's safety (well, let's scare him a bit).

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    Winter experience on 11/05/2005 15:27:59 MST Print View

    Kevin,

    Good to know that I can continue to count on another photographer (or former outdoor photographer).

    Rich

    Jim Colten
    (jcolten)

    Locale: MN
    Re: Lack of Winter Camping experience on 11/05/2005 15:38:13 MST Print View

    However, I agree regarding the food, and that was why I said 1.5- 2 lbs per day, certainly feel 2 lbs is much more appropriate.

    Our beloved lab rat will do as he pleases but I'd be packing 4000 calories per day @ 125 cal/oz .... 32 oz. Maybe a bit more.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    the task at hand--some thoughts on 11/05/2005 18:21:58 MST Print View

    1.) everyone should see a gearlist for similar conditions built around synthetic insulated clothing and bag. This is a very good reference point---
    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00277.html
    2.) the list that has been building up on this thread is built primarily around down insulation and VB technology. We want to make sure that this is analagous in function and warmth to the above.
    3.) Ryan's FSO on that gearlist was over 33#. What we want to do is shave it by something like 40%. This is achievable in part if we generate something close to (but doesn't necessairily mean) a 5 # base weight.
    4.) Let's see some lists that fail in terms of getting down to these weights but suceed in terms of keeping our esteemed Tester alive and comfortable.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/06/2005 10:30:31 MST.

    Roger Caffin
    (rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
    Re: the task at hand--some thoughts on 11/06/2005 15:04:08 MST Print View

    Ryan wrote:
    > I don't mind using prototypes that are slated to eventually hit the market, like the Cocoon Belay Jacket, but do let's try to keep this with gear that is available from commercial manufacturers by anybody. Custom or prototypes are fine, like the 2mm neoprene overboots / RBH VB jacket, but let's keep the homemade stuff out for now. Anything I've offered up is all fair game.
    > I want this exercise to be as accessible as possible to everyone involved.

    and Kevin wrote:
    > Let's see some lists that fail in terms of getting down to these weights but suceed in terms of keeping our esteemed Tester alive and comfortable.

    My comments:
    This seems to be something which has drifted in and out of the discussion at times. Just what IS the point of this exercise? Is it to get Ryan out there for a few days with what he has in his pockets as a once-off survival exercise, or is it an experiment working towards what is genuinely possible winter SUL for many people?

    I believe Ryan's original target really was the latter. So this exercise has to be repeatable by others, and enjoyable (sort of!).

    I can rememebr back 15 years ago or more when any extended trip (more than 1 night) always involved packs over 20 kg. Now the UL market is the hot outdoors market - at least in the warm dry months of the year. OK, now let's push the envelope outwards a bit into winter. But not as a masochistic survival exercise.

    Cheers, Roger Caffin
    (I started walking over 45 years ago. I started winter camping around 40 yrs ago, and extended ski touring maybe 15 years ago.
    The Australian winter weather is usually reliably foul. Sigh.)

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: Re: the task at hand--some thoughts on 11/07/2005 02:31:54 MST Print View

    Roger,

    excellent points. i believe that you hit the nail on the head. very astute.

    i'd sure like to duplicate Dr. J's adventure (only perhaps in upper New England) AND come back with 10 fingers, 10 toes, as well as my nose and ears. I'd rather enjoy the adventure than suffer through it.

    to that end, i'll prob. end up buying whatever gear Dr. J takes with him.

    thanks again for providing some insightful direction with your Post.

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    SUL List for Winter in New England on 11/07/2005 04:55:43 MST Print View

    Paul, I would be interested in a new thread for a Winter SUL gear list for the New England area. What about a Winter SUL 100 Mile Wilderness Hike in Maine? Start the hike off with a guided "2 Day Winter Ascent of Mt Katahdin"

    Link to Photo's from this past Jan/2005


    Then hike South through the 100 Mile Wilderness.

    Alan Garber
    (altadude) - F
    Re: SUL List for Winter in New England on 11/07/2005 05:33:03 MST Print View

    Wow:

    Always wanted to do that trip!!

    Jon Tierney from AMGA live just down the block from me.......
    Bill, did you do that trip?

    Having never done a trip in the West..do people think the gear would be different from that needed in NE?


    A

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    SUL List for Winter in New England on 11/07/2005 08:03:38 MST Print View

    Alan, No, not yet, I have been trying to get up to Maine for 3 years to do a trip like that. My next best chance is 3 weeks next Feb 2006. They also do something for 5 days that would be even better.

    I have never hiked out west. I don't hike were I am not the top of the food chain. A small part of that is a joke.

    My guess is they have a lot more snow out West and more rain in the New England area. Last year New England (Maine) had a lot of snow and it really hurt watching the snow build up and up in most of Maine and me being layed up in South Texas.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Ryan's Winter SUL Gearlist on 11/07/2005 08:41:44 MST Print View

    Meanwhile----about Ryan's gearlist...

    William Sawyer
    (Pete60s) - F
    Let's be Reasonable on 11/08/2005 14:55:06 MST Print View

    I don't think he should go. He is going to die.

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: Let's be Reasonable on 11/08/2005 16:40:46 MST Print View

    William,

    i don't think that you need to be quite that concerned. i would imagine that this isn't even really a "survival excercise" - at least not for someone like Dr. J.

    it's doubtful that his friend, Carol Crooker, who came first posted this challenge would have done so if she felt there was a real danger. i understand that she has a bit of very demanding survival training herself and understands what is involved here.

    don't get me wrong, this isn't going to be a walk in the park by any means.

    besides, Dr. J seems to be a pretty amazing guy. i'm sure he'll do just fine unless there is some kryptonite near the site he chooses for his snow cave.

    John S.
    (jshann) - F
    A thought on 11/09/2005 08:33:17 MST Print View

    Has anyone ever somehow staked plastic directly over their sleeping area of a snowcave roof to stop/divert the water drip? That would seem interesting to see how it would work.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Ryan's Winter Gladiator List--breaking the 5# barrier the other way on 11/09/2005 21:01:04 MST Print View

    To further stir the pot and enliven conversation and no doubt bring accusations that we're planning to do in Ryan Jordan, we have:

    Clothing (worn)

    10.00 (RBH prototype VB Shirt)
    06.10Dropstoppers Micropore Jacket (size M/L)
    01.50 Outdoor Research PowerStretch Balaclava
    03.00 Nike Spandex Running Short Tights
    18.00 Arc'Teryx Gamma MX Softshell Pants
    01.20 PossumDown Gloves
    04.00 BMW FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
    Footwear
    01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
    03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
    24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
    16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
    35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

    Other Items Worn / Carried
    01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCode Plus lanyard
    01.80 Suunto X6
    05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles
    00.50 Sunglasses

    133.00 ounces
    Total worn 8.3 pounds

    Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
    16.00 BMW Arc X
    04.00 BMW Vapor NANO Bivy
    03.00 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso (Cut down by 0.7 oz)
    05.30 Gossamer Gear ThinLight 3/8"
    01.90 GG 1/8" Thinlight pad
    05.75 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel
    14.00 BMW prototype eVENT Cocoon Belay Jacket
    01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
    07.50 BMW Cocoon Pants
    05.00 VB Pants ( RBH prototype would be nice-
    weight is approx. for Warmlite
    would be used for both sleeping
    outer shell)

    Pack
    03.70 Gossamer Gear G6 Whisper

    Cook/Hydration
    02.45 Trangia 1 L. SaucePan
    00.20 Foil lid
    00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
    01.50 Firestarter (candle)/ matches in Ziploc
    02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
    02.70 Vargo Jet Ti
    04.00 Weight of empty MSR cansiter

    Essentials
    00.44 Photom Freedom Micro LED Light (2)
    01.00 Blister & minor wound care supplies
    00.50 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares - 1 / day
    00.50 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle


    84.04 ounces
    Total base pack weight 5.25 pounds

    Skin out weight less food, fuel, and water is 13.5#
    FSO is to be determined.

    Yes--this is an over 5# base weight-Ryan gets more insulation.
    I suggest that more fuel is needed.
    I think there is a missing layer needed to work with the VBL shirt.
    Yes, despite my personal experiences w/ VB clothing ( as mentioned much earlier in this thread)
    I think it is the best bet for a LW low temp. ensemble---and Dr. Jordan really, really wants to try out that RBH shirt. VBL liner gets dumped (sigh)
    as VB shirt/pants/sox gets used inside bag.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/09/2005 22:22:10 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Plastic liner in snow cave? on 11/09/2005 21:06:36 MST Print View

    John, I have never done this. I think anchoring would be problematic. Furthermore, I usually send up airshafts through the ceiling.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Ryan's Winter Gladiator List (take 78) on 11/09/2005 22:01:07 MST Print View

    Ok, I'll jump back in....

    Davidson writes: (sorry, couldn't resist)

    >> Dropstoppers Micropore Jacket

    Why do we need this layer? I've not seen the RBH shirt. Does it have a waterproof exterior? We also have the eVent cocoon...

    >> nightlite+thinlite+thinlite

    Ok, how do you envision these to be used? What size are they trimmed to?

    >> Possumdown gloves+vapor mitts

    Can the Possum gloves be used inside the mitts? Won't they wet out? Anybody tried this?

    >> Cocoon pants/VB pants/Gamma MX

    Which of these leg layers would he use for digging the snow cave?

    >> plastic grocery bag

    I thought we killed this.

    >> I suggest that more fuel is needed.

    Primus made a 440g fuel canister (15.5oz full, 7.2oz empty) which is lighter than two 220g canisters. But if I recall, it contained some regular (non-iso) butane in the mix, so I wouldn't trust it in winter temps without some prior backyard testing. Also, I've not been able to find the big canisters this season. Maybe they are no longer available.

    >> VB clothing...

    Kevin, you brought up the wisdom of using a VB jacket on a multi-day trip without some prior backyard testing in a previous post. I agree that testing would be a good idea -- especially considering how different people "react" to VB under various exertion levels. (Personally, I've slept Ok in VB. But if I'm moving, I've been soaked.) Maybe Ryan would comment on his personal experience w/ VB clothing and his comfort level with using a VB jacket as a primary torso layer for this trip.

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/09/2005 22:49:26 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Winter Gladiators 'r Us on 11/09/2005 22:19:33 MST Print View

    Good- there's still life on this thread

    Dropstoppers Jacket primarily for snowcave digging to prevent snow creeping down pants and as a backup layer--a little more warmth a little more moisture pro.

    Pads--Toso and thicker thinlight under torso, 1/8"thinlight for legs/feet/some overlap w/ pack -- nightlights are 54" (I think).

    Gloves-- you're probably right about Possums.
    I suggest a synthetic liner, perhaps a heavier weight capilene.

    Grocery bag--yep, should be removed.

    VB clothing--Ryan should let us know what he feels about it. It works for some---not me or you, apparently. VBLs for sleeping are great, agreed.

    VB pants would be worn as outer shell for snow cave construction (over Gammas).

    I probably missed something but I have a pending snuggle date--bye.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Legsickles etc. on 11/09/2005 22:29:48 MST Print View

    Kevin writes:

    >> Pads--Toso and thicker thinlight under torso, 1/8"thinlight for legs/feet/some overlap w/ pack

    Hope Ryan likes cold legs...

    >> VB pants would be worn as outer shell for snow cave construction (over Gammas)

    Haven't tried this, but I worry about soaking the Gammas with the high exertion level.

    Cheers,

    -Mike

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: Re: Ryan's Winter Gladiator List (take 78) on 11/10/2005 00:30:21 MST Print View

    >> Possumdown gloves+vapor mitts
    > Can the Possum gloves be used inside the mitts? Won't they wet out? Anybody tried this?

    Yes, it works well for very cold temps. You can sense when they are getting too wet, which means it's too warm for the liners, so you take them off and stuff them in your coat/pack.

    >> Cocoon pants/VB pants/Gamma MX
    > Which of these leg layers would he use for digging the snow cave?

    If this was my pant setup, I'd be digging in the VB's over the Gammas. Your legs don't sweat as much as torso in digging a cave, the Gammas wouldn't wet out too bad. I wore VB (silnylon) pants digging a cave a few years ago, and layered them over softshell pants, it was ok. Damp, but ok.

    >> I suggest that more fuel is needed.

    For me: generally, 6-8 oz of canister fuel per day is required to melt snow for water. About 4-5 oz/day of white gas.

    >> VB clothing...
    > Maybe Ryan would comment on his personal experience w/ VB clothing and his comfort level with using a VB jacket as a primary torso layer for this trip.

    No problem, unless it's warm. If daytime temps are > 15 deg, it'll be sweaty. But I expect them to be < 15 so it should be fine.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: Re: Legsickles etc. on 11/10/2005 00:33:31 MST Print View

    >> Pads--Toso and thicker thinlight under torso, 1/8"thinlight for legs/feet/some overlap w/ pack
    > Hope Ryan likes cold legs...

    In the winter I've used a (Nightlight torso OR a TorsoLite) over a (3/4 thinlight AND a 24" x 12" x 1/4" pad in my backpack) and don't have a problem. Having legs ONLY on a thinlight would definitely be cool. If my pack did not have padding in it, I'd take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad.

    jacob thompson
    (nihilist37) - F
    just a thought on 11/10/2005 00:36:17 MST Print View

    I have no experience with winter hiking so I really can't weigh in on this one. I will ask this though, since Dr.J is taking camera equipment etc. is there anything in there they may serve dual purpose for his gear?

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: just a thought on 11/10/2005 00:42:00 MST Print View

    I will have an ultrapod mini (0.9 oz) that i'll (hopefully!) use with a Stix trekking/ski pole that will serve as a tripod. My other journal equipment:

    1. Ricoh GR Digital Camera in Aloksak with 4xAAA Li Batteries (2 sets) & 2x1GB SD cards

    2. Rite in the Rain Mini Notebook & pen

    3. Possibly a sat/cell phone with data entry device for dispatching live to the BPL website from the field.

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: Winter Gladiators 'r Us on 11/10/2005 02:23:52 MST Print View

    quote fr/ the BPL on-line catalog webpage for the "FeatherLite Vapor Mitts"

    "Ryan Jordan has layered these over PossumDown Gloves for backcountry conditions approaching -15 °F"

    EDIT:
    should have read the entire Night's postings before chiming in. the good Dr. has already spoken. hadn't gotten down that far in the "MyNew", so didn't see it b/f replying. i'd delete the Post content, but don't want to be "spanked" for damaging Thread continuity (a valid concern to my mind - NOT the "spanking"; rather, Thread-continuity).

    Edited by pj on 11/10/2005 02:44:09 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    vapor liner clothes / drop Micropore on 11/10/2005 07:15:36 MST Print View

    Glad to see that we are moving back to the RBH Prototype Jacket and pants VBL combination. I'm looking forward to seeing how that works out, and I like the idea of dropping weight through the dual use of the VBL for sleeping and digging.

    I'd also like to second dropping the Micropore jacket if we have the RBH Jacket. Although nice to have, it seems redundant. However, if we are going to bring it, I suggest we move it to the "Packed" list as it would be used primarily for digging and most likely would not be worn during the day.

    Bob

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Removing micropore from list? Consider... on 11/10/2005 08:32:47 MST Print View

    Unless the RBH shirt/jacket is cut long (Ryan?--what's the word,here?)--I would advocate the micropore, especially for digging out caves. I prefer to dig out a snowcave myself in a Jacket/bib combo to keep the snow from infiltrating under my layers. Also--when Ryan is slogging along, we have him with just the RBH topside---rather thin, don't you think? Not that the dripstopper is an ideal extra layer on top of the VB. Frankly, on top of the VB we could use a LW but more durable non-breathable hardshell for the purpose I had in mind.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/10/2005 13:54:06 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Re: Re: Legsickles etc. on 11/10/2005 10:58:14 MST Print View

    Ryan-

    Thanks for your informative posts. (Speaking for myself, anyway) we're kind of unruly and need to be hearded a little once in a while. <g>

    Ryan writes:

    >> I'd take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad.

    Are you talking about the 1/8" or 3/8" thinlights here?

    Best Regards,

    -Mike

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/10/2005 11:57:52 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Reconsidering the Pack on 11/10/2005 12:05:57 MST Print View

    Does anyone still think that everything is going to fit in the G6 Uberlite ? More bulky clothing, more fuel, journalistic gear. A pack that had a foam pack back or used a pad to create a virtual frame would do double duty to help with at least part of the sleeping pad system.

    Perhaps a Gossamer Gear G5 Hyperlight (7 oz.) would really be more appropriate--- or even a more robust pack that could take having snowshoes strapped to it without worries of self-destructing.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    Rapture?? on 11/10/2005 12:15:15 MST Print View

    What about using the upcoming BMW Rapture Pack? It's larger and made out of more durable fabric so it should fair better with lashed on snow shoes. But it's 12ounces heavier than the G6.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Rapture size on 11/10/2005 12:24:13 MST Print View

    I believe the Rapture was going to have a main compartment volume of 2000 cu. in----so it may not be much larger than the G6. It would fill the robust requirement.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/10/2005 12:39:58 MST Print View

    For 2.5 days ( meeting the needs of a Winter trip),
    I have computed the following, based on Ryan's fuel consumption figures:

    Using a Canister stove system, weight of Vargo Stove and MSR cartridges (7 oz. fuel consumption a day) would come to 37.05 oz. ( 2.7 oz. stove, 20.05 oz. fuel, 13.35 oz. cartridge empty weight).

    Using a White Gas stove (fuel @ 5 oz./day) , weight equals 27 oz. ( 11 oz. MSR Simmerlite stove, 3.5 oz. fuel container, 12.5 oz. white gas).

    What do people think ? We will definitely be going north (or is that south) on the base weight.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/10/2005 15:16:30 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/10/2005 13:01:47 MST Print View

    fwiw, I calculated fuel weights for various fuels and containers a while ago. The table wouldn't format nicely to fit here, but here is a link to a spreadsheet:

    www.nic.edu/compsci/mamartin/files/fuel.xls

    Kevin, what fuel bottle did you have in mind at 3.5oz? Also, I think the 12.5oz white gas vs 20oz butane/propane amounts you used unfairly favors white gas.

    I'd love for Roger Caffin to weigh in again here. I'm a fellow fan of the Coleman Xtreme (Powermax) stove. But, it's not really SUL.

    Finally, I'm a bit surprised that Ryan had higher fuel consumption w/ canisters than with white gas. Can anyone offer a good explanation?

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/10/2005 13:40:16 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Stove/Fuel etc. on 11/10/2005 13:44:26 MST Print View

    Michael --I actually prefer canister to white gas whenever possible.
    Both the fuel container and consumption amounts are based on previous postings by Ryan. He has used a ti fuel bottle for white gas in the past ( MSR Titan).

    The canisters used in the figures are 2 large and 1 small MSR cartridges ( weights taken from Zen Stove website).

    If someone can spin figures to favor cartridge stoves, I'd frankly be delighted.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/10/2005 13:51:04 MST.

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/10/2005 13:57:48 MST Print View

    Kevin,

    Again, as Michael suggested, you may want to consider the the Coleman Xtreme. My Xtreme weighs 11 oz (if carried in stuff sack 1 additional oz). 2 10.6 oz Powermax Fuel canisters weigh 13.9 oz x 2 = 27.8 oz. The weight of the canisters weigh about 3.03 oz x 2 = 6.06 oz. The complete kit without the stuff sack would be 11 oz + 27.8 oz = 38.8 oz. That is for 21.2 oz of fuel. There would also be the weight for the green key if carried. Empty and crushed the canisters will take up less space and as mentioned only weigh 6.06 oz for 2.

    Of course, you could replace one of the 10.6 oz Powermax cannisters with the smaller one and save some weight, but that may be a bit light on fuel. As it is with the larger capacity of fuel that would leave Ryan with 3.7 oz of fuel as a cushion.

    Rich

    Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/10/2005 14:05:12 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Xtreme vs. weight considerations on 11/10/2005 14:17:27 MST Print View

    Richard and Michael, I have always been intrigued by the Coleman Xtreme system. However--this would be the heaviest of the options bandied about, so far. Far less need to be babied at low temps. compared to the Vargo/ canister gambit, to be sure.

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    Xtreme vs. weight considerations on 11/10/2005 14:29:23 MST Print View

    Kevin,

    If we could get by with 1 10.6 oz Powermax Canister and 1 6 oz Powermax Canister, we would have 16.6 oz of fuel at a weight of 13.9 oz + 8.4 oz = 22.3 oz.

    This would only allow for 6.64 oz of fuel per day in 2.5 days.

    However, if Ryan could do this the set-up would result in 11 oz for the stove and 22.3 oz for 2 fuel bottles with a total weight of 33.3 oz.

    Rich

    Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/10/2005 14:36:49 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    come on baby light my fire--but on which stove? on 11/10/2005 15:22:12 MST Print View

    So, we have a minimum of 5oz. difference between going white gas(MSR Simmerlite) or powermax (Coleman Xtreme) contrasting my figures and Richards.

    Anyone else want to weigh in?

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: come on baby light my fire--but on which stove? on 11/10/2005 15:55:26 MST Print View

    I think we should take advantage of the fact that Ryan said he could cook over fires, every ounce we save is worth it.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Woodfires vs. stoves on 11/10/2005 16:13:43 MST Print View

    Young Ryan( Ryan F.,Ryan 2, Ryan the Younger?-got to have an easy way to distinguish between the 2 of you)---if he's spending most of his time above timberline, it's poor wilderness practice. It's a Western thing---you folk in the East may not appreciate it.
    If this was a in the woods sort of trip, it would be an appropriate option.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/10/2005 16:19:04 MST.

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 16:31:47 MST Print View

    Kevin,

    Even if Ryan J. has an MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottle (and that would be OK for this experiment), MSR has discontinued the Titanium Bottles and would not be available for any of the BPL community. They now only offer Aluminum Fuel Bottles.

    Rich

    Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/10/2005 16:33:45 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Woodfires vs. stoves on 11/10/2005 16:37:45 MST Print View

    I guess he may not be able to obtain wood, but I thought I read this in an earliar post?

    Edited by ryanf on 11/10/2005 16:42:37 MST.

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 16:47:35 MST Print View

    theoretically:
    why Ti? is strength really necessary? gas fuel bottles are not pressurized very much, right. so, i would think Al is more appropriate since it's lighter than Ti.

    practically:
    are they actually manufacturing Ti bottles that are lighter than Al bottles? if so, they must be very thin walled to be lighter than Al.

    Edited by pj on 11/10/2005 16:49:18 MST.

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 16:54:04 MST Print View

    Paul,

    What MSR produced, and what most Titanium we use for backpacking including our hiking poles (like Leki) and cookware - (such as our Snow Peak, Evernew, and MSR Titanium Cookware)is actually an alloy of Titanium and Aluminum. Adding the Titanium results in a product that is stonger and can be thinner and thus lighter than the like item it all Alluminum.

    Therefore the MSR Titan (Titanium) Fuel bottles are actually lighter than the same volume in Aluminum.

    Rich

    Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/10/2005 16:55:56 MST.

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: Re: Woodfires vs. stoves on 11/10/2005 16:55:19 MST Print View

    this post is NOT to address the ethics of fires above treeline. so then, what is this post for?

    this post is to validate young RyanF's excellent memory:

    here is an excerpt from a much earlier Post in this Thread. Note that the author of this "quoted" Post is responding to another's Post:

    POSTED BY
    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan - BPL STAFF - M) SUBJECT Re: Re: re.Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge ON 10/19/2005 13:53:14 MDT POST REPLY

    >> also, you should be able to descend below tree line for fuel if you need to build a fire for survival or to ward off frostbite.

    I'm a competent cookfire builder. If y'all decide for me to ditch the stove, I would do that, you know, for the purposes of ... research :)

    ---- end of quoted post ----


    seems like he would descend below treeline to collect natural fuel and possibly cook there also or just use the fire for warmth req'd for survival.

    Edited by pj on 11/10/2005 16:56:42 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 17:00:15 MST Print View

    Absolutely right, Paul---Sigg .6 Liter bottle (alum.)
    comes out at 3.5 oz. --same size , same weight.
    Ti was included because R. has/had it.

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 17:01:56 MST Print View

    Richard,

    i'm very familiar with both Ti and Al from working in the aircraft industry. i'm just surprised that in such a low strength application that Ti is used. Al is lighter than Ti and i would have thought (apparently incorrectly) that an all Al fuel bottle with thin walls would be strong enough. a Ti alloy (e.g. 6Al4V or another alloy) bottle would have to have pretty thin walls to be lighter than an all Al bottle. perhaps there's some legal regulations concerning strength related matters that govern manufacturing in this area?

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 17:10:42 MST Print View

    Kevin,

    Actually that is not correct. The 13.5 oz MSR Titan (Titanium) Fuel Bottle with the cap had a spec of 3 oz (85 g). Backcountry equipment who use to sell them had a confirmed weight of 2.8 oz with the cap.

    Here is a link:

    http://tinyurl.com/8uvoc

    Rich

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Re: Re: Woodfires vs. stoves on 11/10/2005 17:11:05 MST Print View

    thanks Paul,

    I am just saing that if Ryan is willing to cook over fires then we could save some weight from a stove and use it for warmer clothes or something( so he wont die :-)>)

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 17:13:46 MST Print View

    Paul,

    As I said, the Titan (Titanium) Fuel Bottles were discontinued. Perhaps due to cost, perhaps problems due to thinner walls. But, I do know that they were lighter as the previous post to Kevin.

    Rich

    Edited by naturephoto1 on 11/10/2005 17:19:20 MST.

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: MSR Titanium White Gas Fuel Bottles on 11/10/2005 17:27:25 MST Print View

    Thanks Richard. I sure would love to see one of those. The walls must be very thin indeed!! --and still stronger than an Al bottle. If you know it, off the top of your head (since i'm too lazy right now to search the Web or the Forums - read it somewhere recently), what is the wt of an empty Coleman PowerMax canister (very thin, crushable Al)? if you (or Kevin, or anyone else) don't know it, then i'll look it up. many thanks.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Woodfires--what has memory to do with it? on 11/10/2005 17:28:05 MST Print View

    Paul-- Perhaps I'm missing your point. I'm not concerned about Ryan the Elder having brought up woodfires earlier in the thread. I applaud Ryan F. for remembering the earlier post--
    but I had not forgotten it. I was down on the idea from 1st mention (see earlier posts, somewhere back there).
    I don't want to fall back on wood for reasons of
    --wilderness ethics-- I had hoped this would be a leave only *BEEP* and footprints kind of undertaking.
    -- I would like R. to be self contained. I think it is more consistant with UL philosophy.
    --it isn't practical/safe to use in a snow cave if forced to cook inside in inclement weather.

    I can see that to some it would be an attraction to lower carried fuel weight by means of using found resources. The romance of woodcraft. But, I think,
    not all is fair in the pursuit to sub-5. Maybe we don't make sub-5.

    Finally, if this gearlist is supposed to be something that can be emulated, please make it one that can applied to winter travel in say Yosemite or Kings Cyn. Nat'l Parks where woodfires are banned in many places, not only above timberline but in many places below.

    Please, lets drop this option and focus on the stoves and other aspects of the gear list. Please?

    Edited by kdesign on 11/10/2005 17:40:09 MST.

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    10.6 oz Coleman Powermax Fuel Bottle on 11/10/2005 17:35:19 MST Print View

    Paul,

    The 10.6 oz fuel bottle weighs about 3.03 oz and the 6 oz bottle weighs about 2.4 oz.

    Rich

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Fuel Bottle weights on 11/10/2005 17:35:33 MST Print View

    Richard, sometimes you just can't trust Ryan's specs.;-)> which is where I got the Titan weight from.

    However, I had measured my own aluminum Sigg .6 L bottle.
    99 g--- 3.5 oz.

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: Woodfires--what has memory to do with it? on 11/10/2005 17:40:35 MST Print View

    Kevin,

    i saw your earlier Posts on the subject when i was looking for Dr. J's earlier Post. i totally agree with the "Points" you just made on why wood fires are not a subject for further discussion in this Thread. good thinking. i share the same goals as you for Dr. J's Adventure. as stated in a much earlier post of mine - i hope to duplicate Dr. J's gearlist for my own purposes. wood fires would NOT be my primary source (even in the NE) of fire.

    as to "memory" - that was addressed to young RyanF just to let him know that he rememberd correctly since it seemed he was, perhaps(?), doubting his memory at that point. that's all that was intended. sorry for the confusion.

    Edited by pj on 11/10/2005 17:50:10 MST.

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    Fuel Bottle weights on 11/10/2005 17:43:45 MST Print View

    Kevin,

    I knew (I knew you were not at fault) where the weight came from, but I didn't confirm Ryan's Spec. It seemed a bit high to me but, I finally went back to the Backcountry Equipment Website for confirmation.

    Rich

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: 10.6 oz Coleman Powermax Fuel Bottle on 11/10/2005 17:52:00 MST Print View

    Thanks Richard. appreciate the info. i'm going to add it to a file that i have, so i won't have to ask you again.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Woodfires--way back East on 11/10/2005 17:56:23 MST Print View

    If I were in your neck of the woods Paul, I would gladly build a cookfire and probably a bonfire, too, if travelling w/ a group. I have fond memories of a ski-pack trip in the Whites, some years back, where the mob of us built a Winter Solstice blaze that slowly melted a crater 4 or 5 feet deep. Most impressive and a wonderful social focus.

    And thank you for your gracious demeanor.

    jacob thompson
    (nihilist37) - F
    VBL on 11/10/2005 18:30:11 MST Print View

    Once again I will begn by saying that I have zero Winter Hiking and especially VBL. I think that would be a cause for dehydration in australia. But I will ask. Is there any light rainwear such as the Dropstoppers that allows breathability when worn the right way in but creates a VBL when inside out? I have no idea baout the fabrics except what DrJ wrote in his papers. But it seems that if water can go one way but not the other than it would work as a VBL.

    Edited by nihilist37 on 11/10/2005 18:46:20 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: VBL on 11/10/2005 18:45:14 MST Print View

    very interesting question Jacob.

    I think the montbell Breeze dry tec jacets are supposed to be very breathable but still wind proof so if worn inside out may serve as a VBL layer???????

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: VBL on 11/10/2005 21:04:06 MST Print View

    Jacob writes:

    >> ...that allows breathability when worn the right way in but creates a VBL when inside out

    I don't believe this technology exists yet. There are denier gradient fabrics which wick better in one direction than the other. There is also a wool-based fabric in the works which increases air permeability as it accumulates moisture. But, as far as I know, no current WP/B fabric has the capability you want. Although, many are so pitifully breathable that they may serve as effective vapor barriers when worn normally. :-(

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/10/2005 21:05:42 MST.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: Legsickles etc. on 11/10/2005 21:29:47 MST Print View

    Ryan wrote: >> I'd take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad.
    Mike M wrote: > Are you talking about the 1/8" or 3/8" thinlights here?

    A 1/4, actually. I mistakenly called it a thinlight (a gossamer gear product). The 1/4 is available from OwareUSA.com.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: Reconsidering the Pack on 11/10/2005 21:31:24 MST Print View

    >> Perhaps a Gossamer Gear G5 Hyperlight (7 oz.) would really be more appropriate--- or even a more robust pack that could take having snowshoes strapped to it without worries of self-destructing.

    Northern Lites snowshoes can easily be strapped onto a G5 and it's tough enough fabric, and the snowshoes are "mild" enough that they won't get in a fight. I'm not worried about any snowshoe-spinnaker conflicts with the NL's.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/10/2005 21:33:43 MST Print View

    >> Finally, I'm a bit surprised that Ryan had higher fuel consumption w/ canisters than with white gas. Can anyone offer a good explanation?

    Because as a canister stove runs, the canister cools and output goes down. You have to run a stove a long time to melt snow. Canister stoves SMOKE white gas for short burn times, but long burns in cold weather, not so hot no mo.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: Woodfires vs. stoves on 11/10/2005 21:37:20 MST Print View

    >> if he's spending most of his time above timberline, it's poor wilderness practice. It's a Western thing---you folk in the East may not appreciate it.
    If this was a in the woods sort of trip, it would be an appropriate option.

    I think one night, if not both, and certainly part of the days, will be spent near enough to trees that I should be able to do a fire if necessary and in good stewardship. Even in the deepest of snows near treeline, you can always get creative and find swales etc where you can dig down into the ground and do a LNT fire.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: Woodfires--what has memory to do with it? on 11/10/2005 21:40:39 MST Print View

    >> Ryan the Elder

    Good grief, KD!

    "Ahhh dude, Mister Turtle is my FATHER." - Crush the Very Cool Sea Turtle, in Finding Nemo, in response to Nemo's dad addressing him.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/10/2005 22:11:53 MST Print View

    Ryan writes:

    >> as a canister stove runs, the canister cools and output goes down. You have to run a stove a long time to melt snow.

    Mystery solved! Thanks, Ryan.

    If I may be so bold as to paraphrase you in geek speak...

    With a longer boil time, the pot loses more heat energy to the environment, lowering fuel efficiency. Theoretically, an ideal stove would transfer all of its heat to the pot (without wasting flame heating up the air around the pot) in the shortest amount of time possible.

    I don't use white gas, so I can't do a comparison test. But, in my experience, the Coleman Xtreme Powermax stove does not suffer from the canister cooling problem. So, based on the BTU/oz of the fuels, and general stove design, I'd expect fuel efficiency comparable to or greater than white gas with this stove.

    fwiw, I budget 40g (1.4 oz) of fuel per liter to boil water from snow with my Xtreme. But, thats below 7000ft and usually above 15 degrees or so in North Idaho.

    I wonder if we could get comparable efficiency out of a stove-on-top canister stove with a suitable windscreen, or copper wire heat exchanger....Hmmm, back to the lab...

    PS - much of this winter stove stuff has been previously discussed on this thread:

    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/33/

    also take a look at R. Caffin's article:

    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/msr_simmerlite_vs_coleman_xtreme.html

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/10/2005 22:37:51 MST.

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Ryan's Winter Challenge-Stoves on 11/10/2005 22:30:59 MST Print View

    Ryan J. said:
    1 (R) - Because as a canister stove runs, the canister cools and output goes down. You have to run a stove a long time to melt snow. Canister stoves SMOKE white gas for short burn times, but long burns in cold weather, not so hot no mo.

    1 (B) - What about a canister cozy maybe with a chemical pack ? This would require a remote type canister stove. !!Continued Below!!

    Michael M. said:
    2 (M) - With a longer boil time, the pot loses more heat energy to the environment, lowering fuel efficiency. Theoretically, an ideal stove would transfer all of its heat to the pot (without wasting flame heating up the air around the pot) in the shortest amount of time possible.

    2 (B)- !! I made an insulated collor that fits around my cook pot. The insulation is Ceramic Fiber that is used for Pottery Kilns and is good for very high temperature.
    My insulated collar might help the pot retain enough heat to offset the little extra weight you would carry.!!

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Quest for fire by the senior R on 11/10/2005 22:32:02 MST Print View

    Ryan my man---"You've got serious thrill issues,dude. Awesome." Crush is a very wise sea turtle.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Ryan's Winter Challenge-Stoves on 11/10/2005 22:46:57 MST Print View

    Bill writes:

    >> I made an insulated collor that fits around my cook pot. The insulation is Ceramic Fiber that is used for Pottery Kilns and is good for very high temperature.
    My insulated collar might help the pot retain enough heat to offset the little extra weight you would carry.!!

    Sounds cool, Bill (like most of your projects!). I haven't done any testing with heat exchangers or insulators yet. Your insulated pot might be much more efficient...or not. It depends on whether there is a net heat flow into or out of the sides of the pot. And, that depends on the stove's flame pattern, pot geometry, and windscreen configuration -- Jetboil uses a collar to great effect as most of the heat is directed at the bottom of the pot, while a side-burner alcohol stove with flames engulfing the sides of the pot might actually suffer with side insulation. Please let me know how it works for you. [thanks.]

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/10/2005 23:04:11 MST.

    pack nwcurt
    (curtpeterson) - M

    Locale: Pacific Northwest
    Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/11/2005 12:29:46 MST Print View

    "Canister stoves SMOKE white gas for short burn times, but long burns in cold weather, not so hot no mo."

    Side by side on Mount Adams at ~10,000 doing nothing but melting snow, the Xtreme SMOKED a Whisperlite. That was 6 or so years ago. I haven't used anything since that can even touch the Xtreme for snow melting. Canisters are lighter, stove is the same weight as white gas, they're more fuel efficient, and you can't spill the fuel. I've modified one from the original 11 ounces down to about 7 ounces, making it an even better deal. It's the only stove I'd consider for snow melting.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Stove and fuel --modified Xtreme on 11/11/2005 14:26:59 MST Print View

    Curt-- can you tell us how you modified your stove to get it down to 7 oz.?

    Also, can you figure out approx. fuel consumption for 2 1/2 days based on your winter/alpine experience?

    Thanks.
    KD

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Sleeping Pads to eliminate legsicle fears on 11/11/2005 15:04:42 MST Print View

    Based on everyone's concerns and Ryan's experience, the following Pad system is up for discussion---
    Nightlight Torso Pad 3.7 oz. used over Nightlightpad(GossamerGear) 19.5x59x3/4" at 7.5 oz.
    Oware pad cut down to 12x24x1/4" at .85 oz.
    Last doubled for feet and lower legs.
    Total weight is 12.05 oz.

    A cut down Nightlight pad could be substituted for
    the folding torso pad.

    I almost forgot--the small "foot" pad also doubles as an insulation pad for whatever stove system is employed.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/12/2005 12:08:22 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/11/2005 15:16:15 MST Print View

    Curt is correct about canister stoves, they work best in high altitudes, but if they get cold they tend to die. (has happend to me at about 10-15 degrees) I dont know if there is any canister cozies for sale, I know Bill Fornshell has made one. do you think one of the antigravity gear pot cozys is a comparable size for a canister?


    But I still think cooking over fires may be a good idea (it saves all this confusion and mabey half a pound or so, and Ryan is willing to do it!!!!!!)

    Edited by ryanf on 11/11/2005 15:41:02 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    canister cozys??? on 11/11/2005 15:32:17 MST Print View

    Any way,

    a Anti gravity gear 3cup bowl cozy may work for a MSR 8oz feul canister.(modified)

    and a mini solo cozy modified may work for the smaller snow peak canisters


    according to Bill you use these in conjunction with a chemical heat pack.

    Edited by ryanf on 11/11/2005 15:53:39 MST.

    Richard Nelridge
    (naturephoto1) - M

    Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
    Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister) on 11/11/2005 19:19:59 MST Print View

    Ryan F,

    The Coleman Xtreme Stove is a Liquid Feed Gas stove. It is not nearly as subject to cold as the usual Canister type Gas Stove.

    Rich

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: canister cozys??? on 11/11/2005 19:38:23 MST Print View

    Ryan F writes:

    >> a...cozy may work for a...feul canister... According to Bill you use these in conjunction with a chemical heat pack.

    Ryan F-

    You have a fertile mind! You do well in representing the next generation of lightweight backpackers. Maybe you'll follow in Ryan J's, or Bill F.'s footsteps...

    Bill's chemical heat pack is key if you want this canister cozy idea to work. Canisters cool from the inside as the fuel evaporates. Without an external source of heat, a cozy would make them even colder.

    btw, this is one big advantage to the Powermax canisters as the liquid feed system causes the evaporation (and related cooling) to occur outside the canister. (The other big advantage is that the Propane in the mixture doesn't boil off first.)

    Best Regards,

    -Mike M.

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/11/2005 19:45:34 MST.

    pack nwcurt
    (curtpeterson) - M

    Locale: Pacific Northwest
    Re: Stove and fuel --modified Xtreme on 11/12/2005 11:40:32 MST Print View

    Actually, getting it down to just the burner and control valve gets you to 5.7 ounces. At that weight I'd be tempted to choose it over a Pocket Rocket/Snowpeak stove because I prefer the remote canister and the lighter/recyclable canisters.

    But, 5.7 ounces includes no stand setup at all and it's a pain to get the cartridges on.

    How you add weight back to gain these functions is up to you. I've used a Pocket Rocket 3-leg stand inverted as a stand and it works great - adds an ounce or so. Using tent stakes or a mesh stand that can hold the pot would keep the weight just under 7 ounces.

    I'm not a big fan of that setup, though, so I'm working on other ideas. Something that could support the burner and a pot that weighs an ounce or less would be perfect. Very, very possible - I just haven't put the time into figuring it out yet.

    By the way, not sure who mentioned it about cartridges in cold, but the Coleman Powermax setup should NOT be considered the same as regular cartridges. It's a different setup altogether. Cut one of these canisters open and there's a metal (brass?) tube inside that runs the length of the cartridge. Not only does this allow liquid fuel to be drawn, but it gets every last drop out of the canister. Empty canisters from use weigh the same as empty canisters that have been punctured and drained.

    If Coleman would come up with a F1 Ultralight style stove that used the Powermax system, I'd be first in line to get one.

    -Curt

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    modified Xtreme--the Curt way on 11/12/2005 11:53:20 MST Print View

    Thanks, Curt. I'm personally intrigued. I would have to get my hand on one to seriously tackle a solution. Perhaps sometime this Winter, I'll do so. Someone with a metal shop like Bill F (if he were interested in the problem) would probably come up with a slick answer.

    Any ideas about fuel consumption over 2 1/2 days
    (based on the nature of Ryan's trip)?

    I wonder if RJ would be interested in using this stove w/ one of your suggested mods for the Winter UL trip?

    Edited by kdesign on 11/12/2005 12:10:35 MST.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Melting Snow: Fuel Req'ts and Time on 11/15/2005 13:26:01 MST Print View

    More info to add to the mix. See the thread MELTING SNOW: Fuel Efficiency and Boil Time Comparisons of Four Gas Backpacking Stoves in Winter Conditions for details, but here are the highlights:

    Time to Boil 2L of Water from Snow

    19 *F, very slight breeze

    XGK: 20 minutes
    Simmerlite: 21 minutes
    Xtreme: 21 minutes
    Jetboil: 54 minutes

    Fuel Consumed

    XGK: 2.8 oz
    Simmerlite: 3.2 oz
    Xtreme: 2.2 oz
    Jetboil: 1.5 oz

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Ryan J. Fire cooking? on 11/15/2005 13:34:38 MST Print View

    RyanJ,

    do you know the times for melting snow over a fire?

    are you still willing to cook over fires, because if you are I think that may be the best option for this trip. only .5oz for a lighter and no extra feul to carry.

    if you are trying to go sub 5 this may be the only option because you can devote the extra 10oz twords warmer clothing, so you will not freeze.
    also, what could be better than sitting next to a warm fire after a day of hiking in sub freezing weather?

    P.S. I saw these a while back. they are called Fire Pistons I have no clue of the weights but if worn on the lanyard (in accessories section), then it will be no extra weight carried.

    Edited by ryanf on 11/16/2005 13:31:09 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    re. Melting Snow: Fuel Req'ts and Time on 11/15/2005 15:04:32 MST Print View

    I did some quick computing, using your figures, Ryan J.

    With the 4 stove systems you tested-- the Jetboil and the Simmerlite would be the clear winners from a weight standpoint if we were just boiling 2L of water (22 oz total system weight for the Jetboil and 21.1 Simmerlite-- weights used inc. smallest Jetboil cart. and a Sigg fuel container w/ just enough fuel for the MSR stove to do the test). A stripped down Xtreme could be as low as 21.4 oz. using a small powermax cartridge, a stock extreme would be 25.4. The XGK would also be 25.4 oz. minimum.

    But, the longer the trip/ more snow melting sessions, the Xtreme would start to leave the others behind.
    Say for a total of 8 liters of water melted (4 seperate sessions), approx. weights would be--
    Jetboil -29 oz. (2 cart.)
    Simmerlite- 30.7 oz.
    stock Xtreme-25.4 oz.( same single cartridge used)
    and a Xtreme given a diet would be as little as 21.4 oz.
    The XGK leads the rear once more--33.8 oz.

    If the curve were to continue (more sessions) I would suspect that the Xtreme would develop an increasingly larger lead with the Simmerlite taking over 2nd place from the Jetboil.

    All weights given do not include a windscreen.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/15/2005 15:12:22 MST.

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Re: re. Melting Snow: Fuel Req'ts and Time on 11/15/2005 19:18:25 MST Print View

    Kevin, good points.

    You have to factor in the weight of the windscreen and reflector (+2 oz) for each of the liquid fuel systems (Simmerlite, XGK, Xtreme), since the Jetboil does not require that.

    Also, I used a new 450 g Primus canister for the test (total weight full 23.2 oz, empty weight 7.3 oz). So, instead of multiple small canisters, at some point you have to consider larger canisters. The Jetboil canister is a 110g or so canister, then you have the 220's and 450's to work with too.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Melting Snow: Comparing Stove systems on 11/15/2005 21:54:42 MST Print View

    I might redo this comparison, for what it's worth with the larger cartridge sizes--info on Jetboils larger cartridges has gone missing from their site and I thought (although I guess I'm wrong, that one needed a cartridge of the same outside diameter as Jetboil's to work with their system.

    Good point about the windscreen weight not being factored in.

    And of course, I went ahead and did it---

    A corrected reckoning( windscreen weights inc. and jetboil gets a single large cartridge) would look like:

    With the 4 stove systems -- the Jetboil and the Simmerlite would be the clear winners from a weight standpoint if we were just boiling 2L of water (22 oz total system weight for the Jetboil and 23.1 Simmerlite-- weights used inc. smallest Jetboil cart. and a Sigg fuel container w/ just enough fuel for the MSR stove to do the test). A stripped down Xtreme could be as low as 23.4 oz. using a small powermax cartridge, a stock extreme would be 27.4. The XGK would also be 27.4 oz. minimum.

    But, the longer the trip/ more snow melting sessions, the Xtreme would start to leave the others behind.
    Say for a total of 8 liters of water melted (4 seperate sessions), approx. weights would be--

    stock Xtreme-27.4 oz.( same single cartridge used)
    and a Xtreme given a diet would be as little as 23.4 oz.
    Jetboil -29 oz. (2 cart.) or w/ 1 large MSR cart., 27.65 oz.
    Simmerlite- 32.7 oz.
    The XGK leads the rear once more--35.8 oz.

    However--when we go to 16 Liters of water from snowmelt in 8 melting sessions--- we find a different ranking.

    Jetboil with superlarge Primus cartridge- = 38.2 oz.
    stock Xtreme (w/ 1 lg. and 1 sm. cartridge)=41.0
    modded Xtreme could go down to ------ 37 oz
    XGK-------------------------------- 43.8 oz
    Simmerlite--------------------------- 45.5 oz

    The jetboil on paper looks awfully good except for long melting times and questions about cartridge performance when approaching empty.

    The ideal would be the Jetboil system approach married to the Xtreme. An idea that Bill F seems to be working on.

    the biggest surprise of the 16 L comparison is how little a difference in weight there really is between systems.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/16/2005 08:44:24 MST.

    Roger Caffin
    (rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
    Re: Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/16/2005 03:13:27 MST Print View

    > I'd love for Roger Caffin to weigh in again here. I'm a fellow fan of the Coleman Xtreme (Powermax) stove. But, it's not really SUL.

    Well, thanks!
    Yes, I am a big fan of the Xtreme. We rely heavily on it - and it serves us well.
    I am puzzled too by Ryan's figures for gas use. I have been using about 45 grams per day for TWO people in the snow, although that assumed some creek water rather than all snow melting. More importantly, I found I was normally using about half the weight of b/p gas compared to auto gas, summer and winter.
    It may be that I get such good figures fr canister gas becasue I never run the Xtreme flat out. That can be very wasteful.

    Roger Caffin
    (rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
    Re: Re: Re: Stove and fuel (white gas vs. canister on 11/16/2005 03:18:52 MST Print View

    > > Finally, I'm a bit surprised that Ryan had higher fuel consumption w/ canisters than with white gas. Can anyone offer a good explanation?

    > Because as a canister stove runs, the canister cools and output goes down.

    That ONLY applies to upright gas stoves. It does NOT apply to the Xtreme, which is a liquid-feed stove, exactly the same as a petrol stove.


    (Anonymous)
    movie rights on 11/16/2005 13:11:27 MST Print View

    I would like to film a movie, "Saving Dr. Ryan" which would invole me choppering in my ancient Bibler Ahwahnee tent, a Mountain Hardware 0 degree sleeping bag, and a Big Agnes insulated pad. We could rescue the strep-ridden hero from his cold, leaky snow cave and frozen sleeping bag. I would include Ryan F, who could unload a pile of firewood from the chopper, and start a huge fire to combat the incipient hypothermia. Then I would get a bottle of 18 year old single malt scotch to aid our protagonist. I predict a happier ending than the guy who was eaten by his friend, the grizzly bear. I think it wiser to not sign my name, or forever risk banishment from BPL forums.


    (Anonymous)
    Re: movie rights on 11/16/2005 13:23:16 MST Print View

    KD dat u?

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: movie rights on 11/16/2005 13:25:42 MST Print View

    Funny,

    I still dont understand why no one is considering fire cooking.

    and if you are going to the trouble of flying in by chopper, at least bring him a Feathered Friends Snowy Owl

    and a Coleman Heater
    :-)>

    Edited by ryanf on 11/16/2005 13:38:13 MST.


    (Anonymous)
    Re: Re: movie rights on 11/16/2005 13:27:23 MST Print View

    Sounds like KL to me.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Movie silliness on 11/16/2005 13:32:04 MST Print View

    Not I. Assuming correct interpretation of cryptic query.
    Single malt scotch sounds good, anyway. Send it to me.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/16/2005 13:36:35 MST.


    (Anonymous)
    Re: Movie silliness on 11/16/2005 13:37:32 MST Print View

    Not KD. VH?

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Re: Movie silliness on 11/16/2005 13:39:37 MST Print View

    .

    Edited by ryanf on 11/16/2005 13:56:18 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Re: Re: Movie silliness on 11/16/2005 13:41:08 MST Print View

    sorry

    Edited by ryanf on 11/16/2005 13:42:06 MST.


    (Anonymous)
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Movie silliness on 11/16/2005 13:45:00 MST Print View

    whats KD,KL,VH??????

    archeopteryx .
    (archeopteryx2) - F
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Movie silliness on 11/16/2005 14:28:37 MST Print View

    KD = Kifaru Dude?

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Movie silliness on 11/16/2005 15:23:32 MST Print View

    apparently, based upon Kevin Davidson's reply, KD seems like it could have been intended to mean Kevin Davidson. VH? probably Vick Hines. both of these guys can be quite humorous, hence i would imagine the reason for Anon's guesses.

    Jay Ham
    (jham) - F - M

    Locale: Southwest
    stoves on 11/16/2005 16:11:08 MST Print View

    Although Ryan will do fine gnawing on a frozen powerbar 3 meals a day, another option for cooking might be a hobo stove. It will have to be fasioned SUL style using a sheet of aluminum or titanium and pop-rivets. I UL backpacked in the '90s using one made from a #10 tin can. They work suprisingly well, though a bit sooty. Not sure if it will melt snow though...

    Jay
    BPL

    Tim Garner
    (slowhike) - F

    Locale: South East U.S.
    gluing pads on 11/16/2005 18:46:19 MST Print View

    share if you will, about your expereance gluing pads together & how well they stayed together over time/cold. would you use the same type glue for all CCF pads (& paticularly the gossemer gear thinlight)? also, i wonder if a layer of fleece could be glued to the thinlight for moister control? thanks...slowhike

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: stoves on 11/17/2005 01:05:32 MST Print View

    Jay,

    i have two "hobo" stoves that i made (the extreme limits of my stove making skills). one is made fr/a 1lb coffee can (now typically an 11.5oz coffee can) and the other made from a Progresso soup can. with a good portion of the metal removed from the sides near the bottom and the side just under the top "ring, you'd be surprised how light they turn out to be.

    i use a drill to drill holes, & a Dremel to cut out larger rectangles of metal and to grind the edges of the holes and cut-out areas smooth.

    Joshua Mitchell
    (jdmitch) - F

    Locale: Kansas
    Hobo stoves are great on 11/17/2005 07:20:32 MST Print View

    Work very well, esepcially if you build a raised 'floor' into them.

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: Hobo stoves are great on 11/17/2005 07:35:47 MST Print View

    Joshua,

    speak to me of "raised floor"s, please. many thanks.

    Joshua Mitchell
    (jdmitch) - F

    Locale: Kansas
    Raised Floor on 11/17/2005 13:36:20 MST Print View

    Whether or not you make a true wood gas stove, putting in a raised floor, helps let the ashes drop out and air get in.

    This is the single BEST modifcation to a normal hobo stove (IMO). Also, it helps in lighting as you can put tinder underneath the 'floor' and let it burn freely.

    Note: the floor can be wirecloth like the one risk shows. It can be the 'top' of the tincan with a bunch of holes punched in it... also, insteat of cutting 'flaps' and bending them up like risk does, you can poke holes and make the floor self-supporing (corners of wirecloth bent down). All the methods work.

    eidt: all of the commerical hobo-stove (trailstove, firespout, etc) as well as the nimblewill stove (see pattern on thru-hiker.com or zenstoves) utlizie raised floors.

    Edited by jdmitch on 11/17/2005 13:56:54 MST.

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Ryan's Winter Challenge-Stoves on 11/17/2005 13:46:36 MST Print View

    Take a look at the picture of my wood stove. It is on this thread someplace and then if you want more detail let me know.

    Joshua Mitchell
    (jdmitch) - F

    Locale: Kansas
    Here's the Stove Bill Mentioned on 11/17/2005 14:02:36 MST Print View

    Link to the picture (at least I think it's the one)

    I plan on emulating his vortex wood stove design at some point.

    Edited by jdmitch on 11/17/2005 14:03:25 MST.

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Ryan's Winter Challenge-Stoves on 11/17/2005 14:06:17 MST Print View

    The link is to the one. I will post some more pictures of the wood stove on the Make Gear Forum later tonight.

    Edited by bfornshell on 11/17/2005 14:07:10 MST.

    Jay Ham
    (jham) - F - M

    Locale: Southwest
    hobo stoves on 11/18/2005 07:40:35 MST Print View

    Bill, Nice design. I think we could use pop-rivets to attach the wire mesh to the inside of the cylinder thereby eliminating the bit of mesh used to raise the grate. I lighter grate material would be nice if we could find it. Of course, the "can" ought to be made of aluminum, pop-riveted along the seam (or titanium) to shed weight.

    Anyone have experience using a hobo to melt snow. We've got to feed AND water Ryan, right? I melt snow (down into the 20s at least) using my alcohol stove. Never tested a hobo that cold.

    Jay

    Joshua Mitchell
    (jdmitch) - F

    Locale: Kansas
    SS sheet probably better than Aluminum on 11/18/2005 10:47:06 MST Print View

    When I was in boyscouts, we used to melt soda cans in woodfires... hobo stove wood fires can get much hotter because of the chimney affect...

    My theory (uproven as I don't particularly want to try it) is that aluminum will likely melt (and certainly would require a seperate stove stand) SS or Brass sheeting (or a simply steel vegetable can) would be a far better option... it would last longer and the stand would be integral saving weight.

    now, an tall aluminum windscreen (or Ti)might be in order as well (or as an option). However, wind blockage isn't as much of an issue when you have unlimited fuel (of course a windscreen will give you a place to dry out some twigs.

    I agree with the permanently attached grating idea, though.

    if wood will burn at a given temp than a hobo stove will work fine at that same temp - so, yeah it'll work to melt snow.

    Edited by jdmitch on 11/18/2005 10:49:56 MST.

    John Taylor
    (jtaylor) - F - M

    Locale: Shenandoah
    Why use a backpack at all? on 11/18/2005 11:10:07 MST Print View

    With a base load of sub 5lb, why waste the weight on a pack at all?

    Is there a piece of gear flexible enough to contain and carry what gear and supplies Ryan will have with him? Shelter, sleeping bag, drum liner bag, or something similiar? How about it, any ideas?

    Edited by jtaylor on 11/18/2005 11:10:40 MST.

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Wood Stove(s) on 11/18/2005 11:36:11 MST Print View

    Hi Jay:
    I have another Wood Stove started and on this one I put a few small holes in the side of the can and put the end wires of the (SS mesh) grate through the holes and bend them over. The weight of the SS mesh went from 21.2gr to 11.2gr. This is maybe lighter than a few pop rivets and will let you remove/replace the grate if you need to. A lighter grate would be nice but I am not sure what would be strong enough to take the temperature of the fire.

    I have another wood stove made out of Aluminum cans but it is a little smaller diameter.

    Aluminum Can Wood Stove w/grate:
    3" lid opening by 4.5" tall - weight 28gr/1oz
    vs
    Steel Can Wood Stove w/grate:
    3-3/8" lid opening by 4.25" tall - weight 85gr/3oz

    I think if you are going to go with a wood stove you will need a good match between the stove diameter and pot diameter. Both of my wood stoves still need a pot stand. My pot stands are very light and made for the cook pot to be used.

    PS. For Joshua, I will burn some wood in the Aluminum Can Stove and see how it holds up. I like the size of the Steel can and it only weighs 3oz.

    Edited by bfornshell on 11/18/2005 12:06:01 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Wood Stove(s) on 11/18/2005 13:04:48 MST Print View

    Uh...

    mabey you guys should start another thread on wood stoves, I am very interested in making one myself, and I am all for cooking with wood fuel, but Ryan J. dosent need the extra weight of a stove for this trip. just cook over the fire.

    Jay Ham
    (jham) - F - M

    Locale: Southwest
    reply to Ryan Faulkner on 11/19/2005 06:18:11 MST Print View

    I agree with part of your post. Perhaps we should take the design aspect of a wood stove to another forum. However, I think a wood stove should still be a consideration for Ryan Jordan's trip. If Ryan will be at or above tree line (as stated in his first post), he will have a difficult time (I think) finding enough fuel to build a fire hot enough to melt snow; especially when ground vegetation will be buried in it. Wood stoves require much less fuel for a given heat output over open fires, hence the thinking behind all this.

    The big question is: can we get the weight low enough?

    Jay

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: reply to Ryan Faulkner on 11/19/2005 08:36:44 MST Print View

    thanks Jay,

    Now I see why no one is considering fire cooking, I am used to an abundance of wood and trees, tanks for explaining.

    My vote now is for a wood stove

    I am right now working on a wood stove, if it is light enough, I will post some info

    Edited by ryanf on 11/19/2005 12:30:26 MST.

    Aaron Sorensen
    (awsorensen) - MLife

    Locale: South of Forester Pass
    Re: Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge on 11/19/2005 15:29:35 MST Print View

    Hey there hasn't been an update on the gear for Ryan for 10 days now.
    If we don't carry on we are still giong to be discusing what stove Ryan is going to bring while he has already started his trip.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    lack of action-- Winter SUL on 11/19/2005 15:40:56 MST Print View

    So, say something, Aaron. There's any number of posts on this thread that have been left hanging, on
    topics like--
    insulation pad systems
    stove/cookware systems
    packs
    clothing layer approaches ( although VB clothing will probably be a component)

    I think the only done deals are footwear, sleeping/shelter system (less pads) and mode of transportation.

    I would love to see someone else modify the extant gear lists or even come up with a brand spankin' new one.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/19/2005 15:44:17 MST.

    John S.
    (jshann) - F
    Re: Re: Ryan Jordan's SUL Winter Challenge on 11/19/2005 17:41:34 MST Print View

    After they bolted from the sub 5 rule, I got all depressed because I racked my brain to go sub 5. Now I am on medication for it ; ).

    All nonsense aside, I need to upgrade my version I guess. I didn't remember what sleep system everybody finally decided on. Guess I'll have to go back through 15 pages to find it..yikes.

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Ryan's Winter Challenge on 11/19/2005 18:26:54 MST Print View

    John, I think someone was updating the list on page one each time something changed or was added.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Ryan's Winter Challenge on 11/19/2005 18:43:00 MST Print View

    just so anyone interested knows, I posted a new thread on Wood Stoves

    R K
    (oiboyroi) - M

    Locale: South West US
    Sierra zip stove on 11/19/2005 22:30:09 MST Print View

    I found recently found this stove online and think it could be a possibility for Dr. Jordan to use. It burns wood and works by preheating the air blown in to the fuel, much like a blacksmiths forge. It claims that it will burn wet wood and puts out 18,000 BTU/hr. Seems like a good compromise between a gas stove and a hobo stove. The titanium model weighs 10 oz.

    Here's a link. ZZ Manufacturing, Inc.

    Roy

    Edited by oiboyroi on 11/19/2005 22:31:05 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    re.Sierra zip stove on 11/21/2005 21:25:51 MST Print View

    Although I have known people to use Zip Stoves on Winter trips involving fairly mild tempuratures and
    readily found wood ( supplemented with carried pieces of "treated" wood)---I've never have heard anyone using one in the conditions that RJ is likely to encounter (blizzards willing). One would have to use Lithium batteries, of course, in lower temps.

    My own experiences with the Zip involve going on trips with someone who was a "Ziphead". My observation is they seem very fussy (quality of fuel issues) and the battery powered fan always seemed to have wiring problems (although field fixable).
    I certainly would not use this or any other wood-fired stove in a tent, small tarp or snow cave-- which is something I like to have the option of doing with my cooking systems, if stormbound--an issue that Ryan conceivably could face.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/21/2005 21:28:17 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Winter Warrior SUL Gear List on 11/21/2005 21:35:21 MST Print View

    John Shannon ---have you gone through all the pages yet and updated your list?

    Myself--I'm feeling a little deterred by the quantity of posts on this thread.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/21/2005 21:36:25 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    Updated SUL list on 11/22/2005 08:12:31 MST Print View

    Here is an updated SUL winter list. It includes the VB clothing. I've switched back to the Cocoon Pullover but added a Possumdown Hat. It has the EOS and the simmerlite. No windscreen - he can dig a hole. It also has the 1/4" mat to put under his feet on top of the 3/8" Thinlight (I calculated the weight based on the dimentions, and it is sized to cover the Thinlight from the bottom of the Torsolight to the end of the Thinlight. I've restored the Thinlight and the Torsolight back to their full sizes - non cut.

    Clothing
    10.00 RBH Designs Proto VB Jacket
    01.50 Outdoor Research PowerStretch Balaclava
    03.00 Nike Spandex Running Short Tights
    18.00 Arc'Teryx Gamma MX
    04.00 Bozeman Mountain Works FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
    01.10 PossumDown Gloves

    Footwear
    02.00 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
    03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
    24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
    16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
    35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

    Other Items Worn / Carried
    00.50 Sunglasses
    01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCode Plus lanyard
    01.30 Suunto X6
    05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles
    125.8 ounces
    Total worn or carried 7.86 pounds


    Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
    00.00 Snow Cave
    16.00 Arc X Quilt
    04.00 Vapor NANO Bivy
    03.70 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso
    05.30 Gossamer Gear 3/4 length ThinLight 3/8" glued to…
    01.70 Oware 1/4" Foam Pad (cut to 19.5 W x 30 L)
    05.75 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel
    05.00 VB Pants
    09.00 BMW Cocoon Pullover
    01.85 Possum Down Beanie Hat
    01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks

    Pack
    03.70 Gossamer Gear G6

    Cook/Hydration
    02.45 Trangia 1 L. SaucePan
    00.20 Foil lid
    00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
    00.30 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
    02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
    08.50 MSR SimmerLite
    03.50 MSR Titan Fule Bottles 0.6L

    Essentials
    03.56 Princeton Tec EOS
    01.00 Blister & minor would care supplies
    00.50 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares - 1 / day
    00.50 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle
    00.50 Small stuff sack to organize essentials

    81.71 ounces
    Total Packed 5.11 pounds

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Ryan's Winter Challenge on 11/22/2005 08:35:42 MST Print View

    Bob, Do I assume that this is your winter gear list? If so you might want to add the size of the items and if you have the item or would like to have the item. That way I/we can tell if the weight would be the same for something I/we might like to also have. If you have the item and anyone had a question about the product I/we could ask about it.

    Thanks.

    R Alsborg
    (FastWalker) - MLife

    Locale: Southwest
    Re: Updated SUL list on 11/22/2005 09:41:57 MST Print View

    Bobg,

    Excellent Gear List!

    You can tell much thought has been put into formulating this list not only by the combined total weight but by the items you decided to include and the quality of the gear.

    FastWalker

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    Ryan's winter challenge - Bill on 11/22/2005 10:04:46 MST Print View

    Bill,

    This isn't my list. I wouldn't go out in the winter with this! ;) This is basically a reorganization of the previous lists posted on this thread with some suggested changes. But everything here has been posted before in some way or another. All the weights are from previous posts.

    Bob

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Bob's list update on 11/22/2005 10:41:04 MST Print View

    Thanks Bob.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Winter SUL list on 11/22/2005 11:45:03 MST Print View

    Good compilation, Bob
    Obviously , we have a ways to go.

    R Alsborg
    (FastWalker) - MLife

    Locale: Southwest
    Re: Winter SUL list on 11/22/2005 11:54:23 MST Print View

    1 Month and 16 pages of postings and "we have a ways to go?" whats left to add to Bobs List??

    At this rate Summer will be here before Ryans feet touch snow...

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    SUL Winter List: What's left? on 11/22/2005 12:30:54 MST Print View

    I second Roger's motion and bring to the floor a motion to vote on finalizing the list. All in favor say Yah ;)

    Bob

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: SUL Winter List: What's left? on 11/22/2005 13:01:35 MST Print View

    Good looking list but not quite SUL.
    we need to loose that .11oz.

    what about Bills 1.2oz wood stove?

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    not quite SUL ... doh on 11/22/2005 13:26:19 MST Print View

    The easiest way to drop some weight off that list would be to change the handlamp to something smaller if Ryan feel comfortable using a lower power light in the winter.

    Or we could just live with the extra .11 oz?

    Edited by bobg on 11/22/2005 13:27:22 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    re. SUL Winter List: What's left? on 11/22/2005 15:21:20 MST Print View

    Bob---before we are quite so rash
    Headgear for warmth is completely inadequate---I would rather go a few oz. over 5# in use the prototype insulated eVent jacket that Ryan sprang on us for both the hood , another moisture/wind barrier and superior warmth to the Cocoon Pullover.
    I also would seriously consider inclusion of a pair of Cocoon pants.

    I think I personally would be comfortable w/ the rest of the list. Eos headlamp--I would keep w/ Photon for backup. It would be nice to give Ryan a modified Xtreme Stove but time might not allow?

    Candle for the Snow Cave is essential and we don't have a sun hat.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/22/2005 15:22:55 MST.


    (Anonymous)
    Re: re. SUL Winter List: What's left? on 11/22/2005 15:25:49 MST Print View

    Kevin said "I would rather go a few oz. over 5#"

    I would too, but Ryan has to go under 5lbs for this trip.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Gear List weight assumptions on 11/22/2005 15:56:30 MST Print View

    Please read ALL the postings on this thread, Anonymous-- and please get a name while you're at it--since you choose to use mine. It is your assumption that this gearlist has to be sub-5#. Do you have something to offer that is more germane to the topic at hand? Perhaps a sub 5# list and a rationale behind it?

    As Ryan Jordan stated or implied--perhaps what constitutes Winter SUL should be examined--perhaps it isn't sub -5. Perhaps Full Skin Out weight is far more important. In fact Dr. Jordan seemed to feel that base weights are perhaps questionable,in and of themselves. It's so easy to "pad" base weight figures by "wearing" more, for example.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/22/2005 15:59:04 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    Winter SUL = 6# on 11/22/2005 16:17:00 MST Print View

    I think everyone would agree that typical Winter weight is heavier that typical 3 season weight. So lets decide that Winter SUL = 6#. That being said, Kevin, I've made all the changes you suggested: Added back belay jacket, added cocoon pants, added micro led as backup, removed wool hat (because now we have insulated hood), added sun cap, added candle. We are still under 6#. Here it is:

    Clothing
    10.00 RBH Designs Proto VB Jacket
    01.50 Outdoor Research PowerStretch Balaclava
    03.50 Go Lite Mesh Cap (Sun hat)
    03.00 Nike Spandex Running Short Tights
    18.00 Arc'Teryx Gamma MX
    04.00 Bozeman Mountain Works FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
    01.10 PossumDown Gloves

    Footwear
    02.00 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
    03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
    24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
    16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
    35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

    Other Items Worn / Carried
    00.50 Sunglasses
    01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCode Plus lanyard
    01.30 Suunto X6
    05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles

    129.3 ounces
    Total worn or carried 8.08 pounds


    Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
    00.00 Snow Cave
    16.00 Arc X Quilt
    04.00 Vapor NANO Bivy
    03.70 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso
    05.30 Gossamer Gear 3/4 length ThinLight 3/8" glued to…
    01.70 Oware 1/4" Foam Pad (cut to 19.5 W x 30 L)
    05.75 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel
    05.00 VB Pants
    14.00 BMW Prototype eVENT Cocoon Belay Jacket
    07.50 BMW Cocoon Pants
    01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks

    Pack
    03.70 Gossamer Gear G6

    Cook/Hydration
    02.45 Trangia 1 L. SaucePan
    00.20 Foil lid
    00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
    00.30 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
    02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
    08.50 MSR SimmerLite
    03.50 MSR Titan Fule Bottles 0.6L

    Essentials
    03.56 Princeton Tec EOS
    00.22 Photon Freedom Micro LED Light (Backup light)
    01.00 Blister & minor would care supplies
    00.50 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares - 1 / day
    00.50 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle
    01.00 Candle
    00.50 Small stuff sack to organize essentials

    93.58 ounces
    Total Packed 5.85 pounds


    So shall we vote now? All in favor ...

    Edited by bobg on 11/22/2005 16:18:06 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Cocoon belay Jacket info and my Vote on 11/22/2005 16:21:00 MST Print View

    Reminder of an Insulated Jacket that would be available for this Winter experiment and I quote Mr. Jordan--
    "... the Cocoon Belay Jacket prototype... has an insulated hood, the hood is insulated, the insulation throughout is the same as the Cocoon pullover, quantum lining, eVENT shell...ho ho ho!!!! That'll shake it up. it's 14 oz.".

    Great job, Bob . A minor point--- wool liner sox (in the extra clothing section) won't work well under VB sox or as part of the sleeping system which would also use the VB sox. I feel an extra pair of sox would still be useful ( if just for emergencies) but perhaps something quick drying (capilene sox?).

    Finally, one more caveat---are the packables going to fit in a G6? With food and water, this is going to push the 15 # reccommended weight capacity(especially when shlepping the snowshoes, which he might) and the load is fairly bulky as well.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/22/2005 20:22:38 MST.

    David Couch
    (Davidc) - F

    Locale: England
    Sanitation on 11/22/2005 19:15:58 MST Print View

    My last experience of winter camping was in 1951 and my memory probably rivals Paul Johnsons, so if I am being naive please tell me.

    The list so far lacks any means of digging sanitary holes in frozen ground. Shouldn't it contain either a digging tool (other than merely a means of hiding beneath the snow till it melts) or an allowance for packing the residue out?

    David.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Time to vote/agree/propose on the Gearlist? on 11/22/2005 19:19:17 MST Print View

    Ryan J.--do you want to give a deadline to the participants on this thread to wrap it up?

    Do you want to offer any further feedback or send us to the showers?

    Any other last minute Uber-equipment you have in the works that might be fun to bring along?

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: Sanitation on 11/22/2005 19:29:26 MST Print View

    >>"my memory probably rivals..."

    my sincere condolences.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Time to vote/agree/propose on the Gearlist? on 11/22/2005 20:01:27 MST Print View

    I think we should still go for sub 5.

    here is bobs list modified

    Clothing
    10.00 RBH Designs Proto VB Jacket
    01.50 Outdoor Research PowerStretch Balaclava
    03.00 Tilley LT5 (Sun hat)..........MODIFIED
    03.00 Nike Spandex Running Short Tights
    18.00 Arc'Teryx Gamma MX
    04.00 Bozeman Mountain Works FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
    01.10 PossumDown Gloves

    Footwear
    02.00 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
    03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
    24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
    16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
    35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

    Other Items Worn / Carried
    00.30 Gossamer gear Sunglasses..........MODIFIED
    01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCode Plus lanyard
    01.30 Suunto X6
    05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles

    128.6 ounces
    Total worn or carried 8.03 pounds


    Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
    00.00 Snow Cave
    16.00 Arc X Quilt
    04.00 Vapor NANO Bivy
    03.70 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso
    04.00 2 Gossamer Gear full length ThinLight 1/8" pads ..........Modified
    05.75 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel
    05.00 VB Pants
    08.50 BMW Cocoon..........MODIFIED
    06.50 Quantum shelled down Knickers..........Modified
    01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
    03.00 Nunatak USA Down Balaclava........MODIFIED

    Pack
    03.70 Gossamer Gear G6

    Cook/Hydration
    02.45 Trangia 1 L. SaucePan
    00.20 Foil lid
    00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
    00.30 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
    02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
    01.20 Bills wood stove..........MODIFIED

    essentials
    02.90 Energizer LED Essentials..........MODIFIED
    00.22 Photon Freedom Micro LED Light (Backup light)
    01.00 Blister & minor would care supplies
    00.50 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares - 1 / day
    00.50 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle
    01.00 Candle
    00.50 Small stuff sack to organize essentials

    75.62 ounces
    Total Packed 4.72625 pounds

    Edited by ryanf on 11/22/2005 21:27:15 MST.

    David Lewis
    (davidlewis) - MLife

    Locale: Nova Scotia, Canada
    Re: Sanitation on 11/22/2005 20:38:14 MST Print View

    "The list so far lacks any means of digging sanitary holes in frozen ground."

    Ya... I've noticed that that is something that you never, ever, see in UL gear lists. What's the deal with that? I've always wondered.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    On UL sanitation engineering on 11/22/2005 21:17:04 MST Print View

    Those of us on the UL path to enlightenment ;-)>
    will often use objects at hand to dig a cat hole---rocks,cooking pots, sticks, ice axes, skis, snowshoes, hands. In the Winter in deep snow,there may be no alternative but to dig a hole in snow (contents revealed in Spring, maybe)--I do burn or carry out TP (whatever's appropriate). In other situations, terrain and snowfall may allow digging into ground (preferred).

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Gearist changes on 11/22/2005 21:23:52 MST Print View

    What I changed

    Tilley insted of golite cap
    .3 oz sunglasses instead of .5
    changed 3/4 GG thinlight 3/8" glued to oware 1/4" to two GG thinlight 1/8"
    changed Coccoon Belay to Coccoon and down balaclava
    changed BMW coccoon pants to Ryans 6.5oz Quantum shelled Knicker noted Here
    gas stove to a wood stove
    and changed headlamp to a slightly lighter lamp.

    Edited by ryanf on 11/22/2005 21:25:13 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    GearLists, Gear Lists, Gear Lists on 11/22/2005 21:54:24 MST Print View

    Ryan the not as old as that other Ryan--- some interesting variations. You will go far.

    About that 1.2 oz. stove of Bill's. I believe that the inventer himself raised some reservations about the use of that stove on RJ's venture. I, of course, have grave doubts about using either open fires or wood stoves on this Uber-light adventure. I stated some of those objections before and won't repeat them.
    I really would like to see a cooking system that more people are likely to employ ( at least out here on the Left Coast) and would be legal to use in Alpine areas in the National Parks I frequent ( such as Yosemite, King's and Sequoia). Also, a stove that can be used in enclosed (but vented) spaces like tents or vestibules or snow caves. I wouldn't use the Billstove (TM) in such places. In Winter, I find I sometimes must use a stove in those very places.

    You and Bill should and ought to test this wood stove in Winter conditions and see how well it performs in melting 2-3 liters, using peices of wood that reflect real world conditions ( different species, fine and loose grained, hardwoods or conifer, wet or dry. It would be very interesting. Perhaps some of my concerns could even be rebutted.

    The choice of headlamp-- If we went for a sub 1 watt led headlamp ( to save weight and have extended running times) I would opt for the Aurora or Tikka. They are considered much more reliable than the Energizer Essentials and much more water resistant. You might want to check out this review:
    http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/energizer_ledessentials.htm
    and check out the site"s other headlamp reviews. Craig of Flashlight Reviews is considered by many to be among the most reliable authorities on all things involving portable lighting.

    The Cocoon Pullover/ Nunatak Balaclava option you put on your list is definately one to consider. If it wasn't for the intregal hood on the Belay Jacket and the eVENT outer ( which makes it a more versatile insulated jacket for the purpose) and the fact that it's inclusion on the trip will probably make us all want to buy one (is this a plus or a minus?)-- I would favor your suggestion. Sorry for the run-on sentence. Interesting what other people might favor.

    Finally Ryan, I noticed on some of your postings you have used my winking ;-)> just so you know the > represents a goatee (which I sport). So unless you have one you might want to use ;-) or even ; ) --I have a very long nose. ;-)>

    cheers. Kevin

    Edited by kdesign on 11/22/2005 22:34:50 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: GearLists, Gear Lists, Gear Lists on 11/23/2005 06:29:26 MST Print View

    I guess you guys are really pushing for 6# winter SUL. I dont know, I guess its fine, but I would rather see a sub 5# load.
    I understand your reasoning, but I dont think this was the initial goal when Carol started this thread

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    2x1/8" = 1/4" = leggcicles on 11/23/2005 09:36:08 MST Print View

    Ryan,

    Lots of interesting options. With regard to the pads, I don't think the 2x1/8" pads are going to work. In an earlier post RJ said that the 3/8" pad under his legs would not be enough and suggested adding the glued 1/4" pad to the 3/8" pad in the section not covered by the Nightlight Torso. Replacing that setup with 2x1/8" pads would not be as warm as the 3/8" pad alone that he said was not warm enough.

    With regard to the 5# vs. 6#. The weight cutoff is arbitrary. I don't see any problem with us redefining was SUL for winter is. Winter camping is a different mindset and therefore I belive deserves a different interpretation of SUL.

    Edited by bobg on 11/23/2005 09:39:14 MST.

    R Alsborg
    (FastWalker) - MLife

    Locale: Southwest
    Re: 2x1/8" = 1/4" = leggcicles on 11/23/2005 09:41:01 MST Print View

    Ryanf,

    SUL being 5lbs or less… Fine for 3 season but don’t you believe there should be some allowance for winter backpacking? Would it help to think of this as WSUL: Winter Super ultra Light

    Bobs compiled list is pretty minimal as it is. To error in judgment over a few ounces will be an unwise considering the consequences. I truly doubt that not to many of us would want to deal with the conditions RyanJ will have to with the 5lbs or less assigned equipment.

    I don’t think the point of this exercise wasn’t meant to just suffer and survive, but to be safe and comfortable carrying the least amount of weight.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Re: 2x1/8" = 1/4" = leggcicles on 11/23/2005 09:51:56 MST Print View

    about the pads being minimal, this my be true but I saw this page and it shows Ryan using a 1/4" pad ang GG pad in winter so I thought...

    I totaly agree with the 6# SUL winter definition, but all I am saying, and I dont mean to argue, is that the challenge was sub 5 according to the first post in this thread. I myself would go sub 5 in the winter if I had the money to purchase the gear, but this may be because I have a high metabolisim, and can sleep cold. I dont mean to be a pain in the butt, but I just dont want to settle for something, when it is not quite what Ryan wanted.

    Edited by ryanf on 11/23/2005 09:54:54 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    The north face met 5 jacket on 11/23/2005 10:02:58 MST Print View

    just another option, looks great and may eliminate theneed for other layers. probably an item worn.
    The north face met 5 jacket

    Edited by ryanf on 11/23/2005 10:03:50 MST.

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    5lb WSUL on 11/23/2005 11:24:49 MST Print View

    this process has been taking a lot longer than i thought that it would (that's not necessarily a bad thing - i'm very impressed with the knowledge and ingenuity of the main gear-selection participants).

    but, i'm wonderin' if Dr. J already has a sub-5lb kit for winter? maybe he could post all the possible gear he'd like to take and then y'all could pick the gear off the list and also substitute other equivalent items he'd be able to obtain, so that others can attempt a similar adventure.

    the reasoning is as follows: Dr. J knows what gear he needs to succeed in this challenge. his choices cover all of his and our concerns for proper warmth, etc. y'all still get to pick from a list and even substitute. this might be the only way we keep Dr. J warm and healthy and break a 5lb WSUL barrier???

    just a thought. feel free to object.

    Edited by pj on 11/23/2005 12:51:29 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    Pad setup in picture on 11/23/2005 11:33:02 MST Print View

    Ryan, the pad setup in that picture has the 1/4" 3/4 length pad and ~1/4" pad from his backpack giving him about 1/2" under his legs. The two 1/8" pads would only give him half that.

    Bob

    John S.
    (jshann) - F
    Kevin on 11/23/2005 11:53:04 MST Print View

    Sorry to reply late to you. I had not gone back through to figure out what sleeping gear was decided on. It looks like a couple others are carrying onward. Happy Thanksgiving to all!

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    re.5lb WSUL on 11/23/2005 12:27:42 MST Print View

    Ahhh--the old Chinese restaurant- one from column "A", 2 from column "B" approach.

    I think ol' Ryan has subtlely done some of what you suggest throughout the history of this thread ( and a good thing, too).

    I do wish there would be a deadline date for this project. It would motivate anyone else out there to come forward who might have final or new thoughts. I also think perhaps the current participants have almost taken this as far as possible as a "groupthink" process.

    And a good Thanksgiving to you, John, Paul, Bob G,
    both Ryans and all.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/23/2005 12:31:43 MST.

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: re.5lb WSUL on 11/23/2005 12:52:38 MST Print View

    thanks Kevin. same to you and yours. a deadline would be good - 2nd that.

    maybe the "pick" approach isn't a good idea. guess maybe this sounds too much like a bunch of young girls playing and dressing up a doll. now there's a thought: a Dr. J Action Figure (we don't want to be calling him a "doll") complete with Tilley Hat. Just in time for the December holidays too. GI Joe, move over!!! There's a new "bad boy" on the block. y'know, i might actually buy one and put it on the bookshelf right next to my "Tweetie" Pez dispenser. it's gotta' have a tilley, stixPro, G6 with a flyrod strapped to the side, gaiters, trail runners, the whole 9 yards though.

    wouldn't be surprised if we saw them for sale soon in the BPL Gear Shop...and, next year a 5lb WSUL version of the Dr. J Action Figure. i want to be the first kid on my block to collect them all.

    Edited by pj on 11/23/2005 13:59:26 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    self set deadline on 11/23/2005 12:54:07 MST Print View

    And a good Thanksgiving to all you as well. I've enjoyed this discussion.

    If we can not agree on a list, maybe we can agree on a deadline. How about we agree to agree on a list by Dec 7. That's 2 weeks.

    Bob

    paul johnson
    (pj) - F

    Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
    Re: self set deadline on 11/23/2005 12:56:51 MST Print View

    Dec. 7th. - hopefully, not another day that will live in infamy. well, maybe only from the big Gear Companies' point of view.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Day of Infamy--put up or shut up :-)> on 11/23/2005 13:18:48 MST Print View

    Dec. 7--a gearlist which will live in infamy.

    I be kool wif dat.

    R Alsborg
    (FastWalker) - MLife

    Locale: Southwest
    Why Not Stick A Spork In It And Say It's Done... on 11/23/2005 13:28:39 MST Print View

    Oh Great another 2 weeks!

    It's a good thing Ryanj didnt ask for our help in creating this website...

    Edited by FastWalker on 11/23/2005 13:30:22 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    eine kleine masochism on 11/23/2005 13:37:54 MST Print View

    Roger---I hate to say, Ryan asked for input to improve the site.

    re.Another 2 weeks...
    --- "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger"
    Nietzsche

    Edited by kdesign on 11/23/2005 13:40:17 MST.

    Mark Larson
    (mlarson) - MLife

    Locale: Southeast USA
    blue rondo a la turkey on 11/23/2005 13:54:47 MST Print View

    12.7.05 sounds good, I've really enjoyed seeing y'all think out loud for the winter set-up. Lots of learning on my part. I still like a previous poster's suggestion that RyJ himself put up a list. Not necessarily now, but maybe sometime close to or soon after the deadline. Maybe he has a totally different take? Or maybe we'll have finalized a similar kit. We might get also some more tidbits about prototypes that way.......
    -Mark

    R Alsborg
    (FastWalker) - MLife

    Locale: Southwest
    Nietzsche?? on 11/23/2005 14:00:20 MST Print View

    Thanks for making my point:

    1. He didn’t ask our help in creating this web site… Only to improve it!
    Big Difference My Friend.

    2. Using a Quote from an Action Movie “Conan the Barbarian” "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" perhaps that’s what’s required here More Action….

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Nietzsche--ja! on 11/23/2005 14:32:10 MST Print View

    A joke, Roger, a joke

    re. Conan---Mileus put a paraphrase of Nietzsche's words into the monosyllabic mouth of der future Governator. It's all pop-speak, now.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/23/2005 14:35:00 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    RE: G6 for WSUL on 11/23/2005 19:19:51 MST Print View

    The G6 is such a cool little pack. It's actually got a good amount of space. I say we go with that unless RJ says he can't fit all the stuff in there.

    Bob

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    Winter SUL Challenge List on 11/23/2005 19:19:59 MST Print View

    OK, Dec 7 is a good goal for the deadline. I assume that the last list published in the thread is the one that is now up for proposal and that is the one we are modifying between now and then?

    When the list is decided, I will indeed take a look and modify it, but only if it results in weight savings. I won't add to it.

    It's looking good so far...definitely like...a challenge...!

    Ryan Jordan
    (ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Greater Yellowstone
    SUL Winter Challenge Gear List Suggestions on 11/23/2005 19:24:41 MST Print View

    OK, here are some comments on the current list.

    01.50 Outdoor Research PowerStretch Balaclava
    03.00 Nike Spandex Running Short Tights

    I will probably replace the spandex shorts with smartwool microweight boxers. It's nice to have the warmth in the winter. The primary benefit of the spandex is anti-chafing, which is not going to be problem at these temperatures.

    We could probably skip the powerstretch bala since we have the down one, and replace it with a beanie cap.

    More later...

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    ? for Ryan J--Winter SUL Challenge List on 11/23/2005 20:05:17 MST Print View

    By last list are you referring to BobG's or Ryan Faulkner's ? Bob's has your prototype Belay Jacket and a liquid gas stove ( currently) and is under 6 #. I would say that there has been more interest in modifying that list. Ryan F's has the Bill (tm) wood stove to bring the base weight to under 5 and goes for the Cocoon pullover and the Nunatak balaclava you allude to.

    Happy T ---I'm off to the high country.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/23/2005 20:10:55 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Stove Compromise on 11/23/2005 21:05:57 MST Print View

    Hi Guys-

    It seems like we've got people entrenched in several camps with the stove issue:

    RyanF really wants Fire, and I can understand this as I have a 10 year old son who will hike all day just for the chance to build a campfire that night. :-)

    Others are either in the Simmerlite, Xtreme, or (still?) in the upright canister camp.

    What I propose is a stripped Xtreme stove like Bill F and company are building on a related MYOG thread. This should end up being in the 8oz range (or less if Bill really comes up with something fantastic). But, I propose limiting Ryan to a single 300g Powermax Canister (weight 400g full), giving a total stove+can+fuel weight of around 22oz. This should provide enough fuel to boil around 9L from snow, and give him the capability to make heat at 2am in a snowcave if necessary. But, he'll have to use some fuel conservation strategies and hopefully build some cook fires to supplement his fuel. Maybe Ryan F could suggest a SUL firestarting kit....

    Cheers,

    -Mike

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/23/2005 22:16:38 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    re. Stove Compromise on 11/23/2005 22:20:42 MST Print View

    Sigh --I had to look one more time before I skidaddled. Hah!---Mike , I too, have a ten year old-- except he's a techno-weenie. He loves all the different stoves dad might spring on the family at mealtime.

    Personally, I'm most intrigued by a modified Xtreme as opposed to an upright canister or a white gas stove. I have enough wood craft to do a cookfire in Winter and I know Dr. Ryan does so there will be no revelations for me in that quarter. I think you offer a reasonable compromise ( and I salute you) but let me throw out a few more ideas--

    I would counter-propose one of the following( and this assumes that a modified Xtreme is practical to get into Ryan's hands):
    1.) that if Ryan's route should take him into the woods that could be fire time but that he be basically self-contained to handle most of the melting and cooking using the Xtreme.
    2.) We could estimate on the lean side what Powermax fuel he would need and if he ran out he would have the option to retreat to timberline to do woodfires.This would be the "maybe a fire" option--a softer version of what you are proposing.
    3.) Or, he would be fully self contained
    but could do a cookfire (&/ or a snowmelting fire) for journalistic compare and contrast purposes. Perhaps this would be not on the actual trip, itself. The latter option could include a woodfire stove--perhaps one of Bill's designs.

    It would be nice if everyone could be happy about the final gearlist and trip parameters.

    R Alsborg
    (FastWalker) - MLife

    Locale: Southwest
    WSUL Kum Bi Yah! on 11/23/2005 23:24:27 MST Print View

    It would be nice if everyone could be happy about the final gearlist and trip parameters.

    Roger Caffin
    (rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
    Re: Stove Compromise on 11/26/2005 15:53:53 MST Print View

    > But, I propose limiting Ryan to a single 300g Powermax Canister (weight 400g full),

    Look guys, this is one man and two nights, right?
    I would reckon he should be able to take a 170 g canister and bring a fair amount of fuel back. I run under 50 g per day for TWO people in the snow. But that assumes a lid on the pot and a close windshield around the stove/pot, and running the stove at a medium to low setting. That still works fast enough, but is twice as efficient on fuel.
    Cheers

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Re: Stove Compromise on 11/26/2005 17:32:06 MST Print View

    Roger writes:

    >> Look guys, this is one man and two nights, right?

    Did we ever nail the trip length down to two nights? I thought three nights were kicked around at one point. Too many posts on this thread to keep track....

    >> I would reckon he should be able to take a 170 g canister and bring a fair amount of fuel back. I run under 50 g per day for TWO people in the snow.

    Roger, I saw your impressive fuel consumption figures on your previous post. But, I based my 9L snow-to-boil per 300g canister numbers on Ryan's recent snowmelt test, with a 5% safety margin.

    Cheers,

    -Mike

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/26/2005 18:14:48 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    WSUL Kumm blah blah & Xtreme fuel on 11/27/2005 15:18:04 MST Print View

    Perhaps I should have said--"It would be bloody well nice if everyone could be happy about the final gearlist and trip parameters, or else". Alsborg gets a lump of coal in his Xmas SUL stocking. ;-P>

    Roger Caffin, interesting about your fantastic fuel efficiency with the Xtreme. Were you able to maintain it while melting quantities of snow? A liter or 2 of water made in a reasonable amount of time?
    I, too was assuming Ryan's test figures when assuming fuel quantity amounts.

    Michael-- I believe that the trip was going to be 2 nights and 3 days as per a much earlier R. Jordan pronuncimiento ( but this should be checked out) . One large Powermax cartridge would suffice in the event ( without recourse to fires). Assuming, of course, that the Xtreme stove route is taken.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    FINAL LIST on 11/27/2005 16:02:42 MST Print View

    Finally, please agree on something.
    I give up on sub 5 and wood stoves so here is my list. any problems? if there are tell me and I will modify THIS list without comentary, I hope this to end up being the final gearlist after your input. I promise not to argue, and just change the list. I just want to see a final decision made.

    Clothing
    10.00 RBH Designs Proto VB Jacket
    05.00 Warmlite VB pants
    03.00 golite mesh cap worn under..
    03.00 Nunatak down balaclava
    08.00 Golite endurance
    08.50 patgonia MW zip T
    04.00 Bozeman Mountain Works FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
    01.10 PossumDown Gloves



    Footwear
    02.00 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
    03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
    24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
    16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
    35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

    Other Items Worn / Carried
    00.30 GG Sunglasses
    01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCode Plus lanyard
    01.30 Suunto X6
    05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles
    00.25 Photon Freedom Micro LED Light (Backup light)on aircore 1 spectra cord

    130.85 ounces
    Total worn or carried 8.18 pounds


    Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
    00.00 Snow Cave
    16.00 Arc X Quilt
    04.00 Vapor NANO Bivy
    03.00 PAC outdoor uberlight micro
    01.90 Gossamer Gear thinLight 1/8" cut in half and doubled under legs
    05.30 Gossamer Gear 3/4 length ThinLight 3/8
    05.75 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel
    08.50 Cocoon Jacket
    06.50 Quantum down knickers
    01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks


    Pack
    03.70 Gossamer Gear G6

    Cook/Hydration
    02.45 Trangia 1 L. SaucePan
    00.20 Foil lid
    00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
    00.30 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
    02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
    08.00 coleman Xtreme stove stripped
    03.50 coleman powermax fuel cartrige empty

    Essentials
    02.80 petzel tikkia plus
    01.00 Blister & minor would care supplies
    00.50 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares - 1 / day
    00.50 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle
    01.00 Candle
    00.27 Bozeman Mountain Works SpinSack LITE Ultralight Stuff Sack (Size S)

    79.8 ounces
    Total Packed 4.99 pounds

    with this list, I am not at all afraid for the safety of Ryan. this weekend, I was up in WV and under a tarp I slept in a 45 degree hoodless bag in 15degree storm dropping almost a foot of snow on me, my clothing was far less warm than Ryans list so in his arc he will be warm. and you may be freaking out about the pad system I gave him, but all I used was 3 torso pads, one under my legs and the other under my torso, they were both 3/8" and I stayed warm all night. so I think Ryans 1/2" combo will keep him comforatable.

    for more info on my clothing system, look HERE

    Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 19:05:35 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    no pants for Ryan on 11/27/2005 16:50:56 MST Print View

    Ryan,

    You got RJ going out there without any pants. The ArcTeryx Gamma MX are pants. There wasn't a softshell jacket on the list ;)

    Bob

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: no pants for Ryan on 11/27/2005 17:27:29 MST Print View

    oops.
    I saw the gama jacket on the arcteryx site and thougt this was what it was.
    what about using the VB pants?

    it looses some carried weight

    what are we looking for. the dancing light gear Gram Weenie Silnylon Rain / Vapor Barrier Pants are only 2.5 oz

    I think the VB and down knickers will be enough warmth

    for now I will leave the met 5 and move the VB pants to worn.

    Edited by ryanf on 11/27/2005 17:33:12 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    re:nights out, final gear list, etc. on 11/27/2005 17:38:33 MST Print View

    Ok, I found it on page 1 of this thread...

    Kevin writes:

    >>> How many days out?

    Ryan J replies:

    >> Let's plan for 3. Short enough to represent the typical weekend getaway but more than an overnight so you have to think a little harder about keeping your gear dry etc.

    Subsequent posts have assumed this meant 2 nights rather than 3. I'll buy it. Kevin also mentioned on a previous post that the moisture accumulation risk is minimal for a two night trip. I agree. (Without a moisture accumulation hazard, I *would* suggest we ditch the Gamma MX and VB pants for a lighter ID eVent pants over midweight C-thru or merino combo, but I don't want to prolong the agony.)

    Ryan F -- take a look back at Ryan J's post on 11/23/2005 19:24:41 MST. He suggests ditching the balaclava and shorts for a beanie and some wool boxers.

    I renew my vote for the stripped Xtreme stove setup. It's lighter than a Simmerlite, doesn't flare up when started, and Ryan J. himself said "I'm in!" on the related MYOG thread.

    Cheers,

    -Mike

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/27/2005 17:40:10 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: re:nights out, final gear list, etc. on 11/27/2005 17:41:35 MST Print View

    anyone know the weight of the boxers and striped stove setup?

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    I see Paris I see France someone needs some softshell Pants on 11/27/2005 17:42:37 MST Print View

    Yep.
    Besides which a decision should be made beteen the Simmerlite and Xtreme stoves. I still would like to see the Xtreme in action on this trip-- in it's modded, weight saving form. Perhaps everyone should say their say about this.

    Ryan F., patiance, man! :-)> We have until Dec. 7. Why are you dropping the quest for fire?
    I think that very few people could use the pad system you propose ( and my Balaclava is off to you for your ability to do so)---at least with any degree of sleep induced comfort, even for cold-conditioned me. I would like to see a system more people could emulate. A bad, safety challenging example could be set for those less experienced who might try this for themselves.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: I see Paris I see France someone needs some softshell Pants on 11/27/2005 17:48:01 MST Print View

    kevin do you know the weight of the striped stove set up? I will change my list to this when I know the weight.
    what do you recomend for the pad system? I made sure to give Ryan an extra 1/8" over my setup. I think this will work fine.

    Edited by ryanf on 11/27/2005 17:48:39 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    backsliding? on 11/27/2005 17:49:16 MST Print View

    Sripped stove could be 7 oz. Powermax cartridge weight is mentioned earlier on the thread.

    No VB pants compromises the sleep system--besides which they would pretty much fulfill the things the eVENT pants would do on this kind of trip. I was thinking the Stephenson VB pants, I think they are superior, but if RBH was doing a prototype, that would be killer. Back to you with weight.

    Ryan--for pad system,add a GG Night Light torso pad( 3.7 oz.) to what you have down and I think it would be fine.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/27/2005 17:56:33 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Stove weight on 11/27/2005 17:51:11 MST Print View

    Ryan writes:

    >> do you know the weight of the striped stove set up?

    Ryan. I'd tentatively figure 8oz for the stove. This could be achieved with a mild stripping. The final weight may even be less.

    A single 300g cartridge weighs 14oz full and 3.5oz empty.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Questions??? on 11/27/2005 17:57:19 MST Print View

    I changed my list to coleman xtreme stove.

    are the VB pants worn OK, withdown knickers for camp? will this be warm enough, I think so?

    should we ditch th Met 5 or keep it as worn?
    dose anyone know the weight of smartwool boxers?

    Edited by ryanf on 11/27/2005 17:58:20 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: backsliding? on 11/27/2005 17:57:37 MST Print View

    Kevin writes:

    >> No VB pants compromises the sleep system.

    Hmm. (intrigued...) Please explain.

    >> besides which they would pretty much fulfill the things the eVENT pants would do on this kind of trip.

    I envision the eVent pants to be worn all the time. This is close to the (heavier!) system I use of Arcteryx Beta AR pants over mid weight powerdry. (We get a lot of wet snow in my area.)

    Wouldn't the VB pants only be used for digging and sleeping?

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/27/2005 18:01:16 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Re: backsliding? on 11/27/2005 18:01:59 MST Print View

    do you guys want me to change pants worn to the ID event and move the VB to carried?

    what about the met 5? keep or discard?

    I think wearing the VB and having the dowm knickers for camp will be warm enough, what do you think?

    I noticed how close I have come to sub 5 without trying to. should we go for it? right now it is only .05oz we need to loose.

    Edited by ryanf on 11/27/2005 18:04:54 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Re: Re: backsliding? on 11/27/2005 18:04:36 MST Print View

    Ryan writes:

    >> do you guys want me to change pants worn to the ID event and move the VB to carried?

    I'm not opposed to the original VB+Gamma setup. I'd just like to hear why Kevin prefers it to eVent+midweight layer. If we did go eVent, I think we ditch the VB pants. (Again, I'd like Kevin's take on this.)

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/27/2005 18:05:11 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Re: Re: Re: backsliding? on 11/27/2005 18:07:59 MST Print View

    I think what we should do is have Ryan wear long smartwool underwear with VB pants and have quantum down knickers for camp.
    no gama or ID

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    VB pants. on 11/27/2005 18:11:01 MST Print View

    The VB pants are in conjunction w/ the RBH VB jacket and VB sox, the VBL system for the bag which is going to make it possible for Ryan to sleep warm and dry enough w/ the rest of his sleep setup. Otherwise, a dedicated VBL should be taken.
    The eVENT pants would not perform the VB fuction well---body moisture would transpire out into the bag and would not offer as much warmth as an additional layer.
    The VB pants would also be worn 24/7 on the trail . Quite a few Winter mountaineers are comfortable with doing this--admittedly not all ( including me)---but I believe RJ has stated he is very positive about using VB clothing.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/27/2005 18:14:38 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: VB pants. on 11/27/2005 18:14:29 MST Print View

    Thanks, Kevin. I'm in.

    Ryan F -- I have no experience with the MET 5 jacket, but I just googled it. It looks kind of gimmicky and heavy to me. Have you tried it with good results?

    Best Regards,

    -Mike

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/27/2005 18:15:00 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: VB pants. on 11/27/2005 18:15:59 MST Print View

    OK as of right now I have changed my list to include VB pants and montbell 05Z-L Exp. Tights for on the trail.

    I havent used the north face met 5 jacket so I took it off the list. but I think I should put it back. or put another soft shell on. what do you think of the jacket?

    or instead of a shell mabey just a shirt. Im liking the mont bell Zeo-Line 3D Zip-shirt

    Edited by ryanf on 11/27/2005 18:21:28 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Changed post--misunderstanding on 11/27/2005 18:23:29 MST Print View

    Misunderstood your idea, Ryan

    Edited by kdesign on 11/27/2005 18:28:13 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Baselayer over VB pants? on 11/27/2005 18:26:17 MST Print View

    Wait what did you misunderstand?

    I have already added the montbell 05Z-L Exp. Tights. they look real warm and are probably called expedition for a reason.

    my question is should we add a top as well the Zeo-Line 3D Zip-shirt looks warm too. there are reveiws on the MB site.

    Edited by ryanf on 11/27/2005 18:31:01 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    baselayers on the list on 11/27/2005 18:36:43 MST Print View

    It would be an appropriate gesture to use synthetic baselayers under the VB clothing for added warmth. Beware the weight and sizing on Montbell's undies--they are small Japanese sizes. I'm personally more familiar with Patagonia's Capilene and Golite's midweight baselayers which would be similar in warmth .

    Edited by kdesign on 11/27/2005 18:40:28 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: baselayers on the list on 11/27/2005 18:39:19 MST Print View

    if you give me specific examples with weights, I will add them to le list. I still think the MB look good.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    baselayer weights on 11/27/2005 18:46:10 MST Print View

    I need to sit down and reflect on this layering approach but in the meantime-- Golite Endurance tights-- 8 oz.
    Patagonia MW zip t --8.5 oz.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: baselayer weights on 11/27/2005 18:57:13 MST Print View

    added to the list.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    sub 5 acheived on 11/27/2005 19:26:57 MST Print View

    my list is now 4.99 lbs.

    I changed princeton tech lamp to petzl tikkia plus and moved backup light to worn on lanyard

    yes.

    Edited by ryanf on 11/27/2005 19:36:05 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    sub 5 acheived--Not (quite) on 11/27/2005 20:15:42 MST Print View

    Ryan----got to plump up that pad system. Throw on that extra 3.7 oz. of torso insulation. C'mon---Ryan Jordan is a family man, he's got mouths to feed. Let him live. At least let him be a role model.

    Also, Ryan, could you take out the concluding sentences that make references to things like the Met 5, etc. that are no longer relevant--confusing.
    And like John Shannon was doing w/ his list--can you make a hotlink url to your list so nobody has to wade through the thread to get to it?

    Something else--- the weight of snow baskets for the Stix needs to be added.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/27/2005 20:38:12 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: sub 5 acheived--Not (quite) on 11/27/2005 20:47:33 MST Print View

    with the 3/8" and 1/8", would you be happy with an extra 1/8" torso?
    I think he could get by with what I got but mabey an extra thin torso pad will be good.

    I re calculated the gearlist weight and we have an extra ounce to play with, and if this is acceptable for you, we can still go sub 5.
    keep in mind, I have used 3/8" foam at 10-15 degree temps comforatably so I think Ryans 5/8" torso, and 1/2" legs will be warm enough for 0

    and I promise to provide a link whenever I refer to my list

    do you know the snow basket weight?

    Edited by ryanf on 11/27/2005 20:58:53 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    VB pants--cont. on 11/27/2005 21:02:41 MST Print View

    I'm not sure I can sign off on the Dancing Light Gear pants. The weight is great, but what makes the Stephenson VB gear and RBH's sox and (from what I hear the Jacket) so highly thought of is their
    textured interiors. These serve to mitigate what is often felt by VB wearers as that swampy, clammy feeling ( somewhat akin to a typical Washington DC
    Summer heatwave 90 degree, 90 % humidity kind of day--you should empathize,Ryan). It kind of pulls some of the moisture that sometimes accumulates
    against the skin when wearing the VB.

    As far as I know the Gram Weenie VB is just Sil-nylon.
    I wonder if Ryan Jordan might tell us if he has any VB pants available, what make and weight? If he doesn't have access to a pair of the Stephensons, now, he probably will not get them in time for the trip unless he's holding off until late Jan.

    Ryan F.--I don't know the basket weight, try the Leki website. I believe their baskets fit and they may post weights.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/27/2005 21:05:27 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    VP pants available on 11/27/2005 21:16:51 MST Print View

    Near the beginning of the discussion, Ryan lists the VB clothes he has available. The pants listed are 5oz so they are not the gram weenie pants.

    Bob

    Edited by bobg on 11/27/2005 21:17:26 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Pad system fussing on 11/27/2005 21:26:00 MST Print View

    Ryan F, ---I want to quote Ryan Jordan on pads for the Winter ( taken from earlier on this thread)---

    "In the winter I've used a (Nightlight torso OR a TorsoLite) over a (3/4 thinlight AND a 24" x 12" x 1/4" pad in my backpack) and don't have a problem. Having legs ONLY on a thinlight would definitely be cool. If my pack did not have padding in it, I'd take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad."

    Jordan modified this statement w/ the following--

    "Ryan wrote: >> I'd take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad.
    Mike M wrote: > Are you talking about the 1/8" or 3/8" thinlights here?

    A 1/4, actually. I mistakenly called it a thinlight (a gossamer gear product). The 1/4 is available from OwareUSA.com."

    Your latest proposal is 5/8" for the Torso, Ryan?
    I think that any thing less than 3/4" for the torso is
    not a good thing for most people to try, based on my Winter experience. It sounds as though RJ uses more than that. His 2 posts sound a little confusing when taken together but it looks like he would prefer something on the order of a full inch or more of insulation for the torso.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/27/2005 21:37:13 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    re. VB pants availibility on 11/27/2005 21:28:26 MST Print View

    Thanks, Bob. Sounds like the Stephenson's.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: re. VB pants availibility on 11/27/2005 21:37:10 MST Print View

    so 5 oz VB pants, got it

    oh boy. I dont want to go just over 5lbs when we are so close. are you sure my pad system wont work?

    Edited by ryanf on 11/27/2005 21:43:31 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Pad system fussing on 11/27/2005 21:56:51 MST Print View

    RJ: >> I'd take a full length thinlight with a 1/2 length double layer of thinlight foam glued to the lower end up to the torso pad. [with a GG nightlite torso pad]

    Assuming this means the "double layer" includes the full-length layer. I.e., the legs are not three layers total...

    I estimate Ryan J's system (a GG nightlite torso pad over a full length Oware 1/4" pad, doubled layer to 1/2" thick under the legs) would provide about R3.1 under the torso and R1.7 under the legs.

    Ryan F's system (as I read this, a full-length 1/8" GG thinlite, plus a full-length 3/8" GG thinlite, plus a 1/8" GG thinlite over the torso) would provide about R2.2 under the Torso and R1.7 under the legs.

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/27/2005 22:03:45 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Re: Pad system fussing on 11/27/2005 22:18:57 MST Print View

    thanks Michael,

    it looks like the torso of my system is almost the rating of th thermarest prolite 3 (R2.3), wich I have used down to 5 degrees.

    dose anyone but me think it will work?

    Edited by ryanf on 11/27/2005 22:40:26 MST.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Pad warmth on 11/27/2005 23:34:39 MST Print View

    Ryan F writes:

    >> dose anyone but me think it will work?

    Ryan F,

    The two (non-SUL) systems I use are rated (torso/legs) R5.7/R2.2 and R3.1/R3.1.

    Personally, I've tried a R2.2 Mt. Washington pad on snow in a backyard test and been *cold*. I like at least R3 under my backside. But then, I don't have the youthful metabolism of you or Ryan J. ;-)

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/27/2005 23:55:17 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    tweaking the pad system on 11/27/2005 23:38:07 MST Print View

    Just as a point of info---RJ's winter pad system (as described by MM above) would weigh a total of 9.75 oz. (if the Oware pads are cut as judiciously as I calculated). This is only 1.55 oz. more than what Ryan Faulkner has proposed.

    In fact, if the pads were cut to fit RJ's frame, it would weigh even less. I calculated pads to fit the torso to feet of my 6'2" body.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/27/2005 23:44:28 MST.

    R Alsborg
    (FastWalker) - MLife

    Locale: Southwest
    40 Days Of Postings… on 11/28/2005 01:17:31 MST Print View

    Every time the number 40 is mentioned in the Bible it implied completeness.

    When the flood came in Noah’s day, it rained 40 days and nights.
    Israel wandered in the desert and ate manna for 40 years.
    Moses fasted and prayed in Jehovah’s presence for 40 days and nights.
    Israel’s spies explored the promised land of Canaan for 40 days.
    David reigned over Israel for 40 years.
    Jonah gave the city of Nineveh 40 days to repent or be destroyed.
    Jesus spent 40 days in the wilderness fasting, praying, and combating Satan.


    Lets pray WSUL Challenge Exercise soon comes to a close and Ryan comes out of this experience in good health (and no strep throat ).

    Jim Colten
    (jcolten)

    Locale: MN
    "temperature ratings" of sleeping pads on 11/28/2005 02:39:01 MST Print View

    "(R2.3), which I have used down to 5 degrees. does anyone but me think it will work?"

    I'd like to point out that when considering insulation needs from a pad used on the ground, air temperature is much less a factor than is soil (or snow) temperature.

    That said, there are many factors influencing soil temps and I have no idea what RyanJ can expect in that area other than it'll almost certainly be <32F

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: tweaking the pad system on 11/28/2005 04:04:35 MST Print View

    OK, lets go with the warmer pad.

    so is it a nitelite with two full length oware pads, or what?

    KD, can you refresh my memory about the sizes and weights of the 9.75oz sleeping pad system, I keep coming out with 10.7oz?

    Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 04:11:52 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    RJ's pad system on 11/28/2005 05:58:58 MST Print View

    This is the pad system that RJ asked for in an earlier post.

    03.70 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso
    05.30 Gossamer Gear 3/4 length ThinLight 3/8" glued to…
    01.70 Oware 1/4" Foam Pad (cut to 19.5 W x 30 L)

    TOTAL: 10.7 oz

    The Oware pad is sized to go from the bottom of the torso pad to the end of the 3/8" ThinLight.

    Edited by bobg on 11/28/2005 05:59:44 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    re. RJ's pad system on 11/28/2005 10:45:20 MST Print View

    The weight difference is that along with the GG Torso pad I am using Oware 1/4" pads (doubled up, except under the Torso pad. RL indicated he used this, as well ( subject to interpretation). He has mentioned I think, 3 different pad configurations on this verrrry loooong threaaaad.

    So---9.75 w/ Oware and 1" torso insulation
    or the system using GG's 3/8" pad and Oware foot section, coming to 10.7 oz. and 1 1/8" torso insulation. Someone else write down the "R" values.
    2nd system is 1/8" thicker at feet.

    I'm cool with either of these 2 systems---I think both are doable. RJ will be a bit cooler (in more ways than 1) w/ the lighter arrangement.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 11:43:54 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    KD's final reflection on winter pads on 11/28/2005 11:11:44 MST Print View

    What is being proposed is going to be at the limits of comfort--I kid you not--for most people. It is a far cry from the 24 oz. system that Ryan Jordan used on an earlier exploration of UL winter snowcave backpacking ( boy, that was cushy). For those interested, check out the BPL gear checklists section.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    62% of WUL ?= WSUL on 11/28/2005 11:41:09 MST Print View

    If you look at the Ultra Light winter snowcaving list, the base pack weight is 15.53 pounds. This list is a 62% weight savings at only 5.85 pounds and includes luxuries such as a 1 watt LED, synthetic insulating pants, insulating parka, not having to wear the vapor barrier pants all the time, and a thicker pad system.

    Are we still set at going under 5? If you look at the BPL UL 3-season checklist it is 7.2 pounds, so the 3 season SUL is only a 30% savings over the 3 season UL. Our WSUL at 5.85 pounds is a 62% savings!

    Just some food for throught.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    re.62% of WUL ?= WSUL on 11/28/2005 11:50:23 MST Print View

    I said before that a 20 lb. Full Skinout weight for this endeavor would be a victory. With this list ( or Ryan's or John's) we will more or less achieve this.

    Run it up a flagpole and see if anyone salutes it.

    It isn't Dec. 7 but I would suggest a final presentation of Bob's and Ryan's hotlinked lists.
    There are some key differences.
    Then a vote? or what?

    Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 11:57:03 MST.

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Ryan's Winter Challenge on 11/28/2005 12:30:54 MST Print View

    Don't count on a 7oz version of the Xtreme stove being very easy to use at the cold temperatures expected. To get the stove that light it is necessary to leave the Magnesium casting off. This makes attaching the PowerMax canister very difficult at best with bare hands. Without practice at home first to see if Ryan can attach the canister without the Mag thing it should not selected as his stove.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Xtreme caution on 11/28/2005 12:42:01 MST Print View

    Thanks for the heads up, Bill. Are you doubtful a substitute for the casting could be configured that would be lighter and less bulky but could still facilitate cartridge changing?

    If no go on a light, modded Xtreme , do we still go w/ a heavier Xtreme or back to Simmerlite?

    Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 14:22:05 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Xtreme caution on 11/28/2005 12:58:09 MST Print View

    I will change my list to a 8oz xtreme

    and since thr 3.7oz for extra torso pad took us over 5lbs, I added an extra half thinlight pad for legs.
    so the final is 1 and .5 1/8" thinlights, 1 3/8" thinlight and a 3/4" nightlight torso.
    for a total weight of 11.8 oz

    and a total in pack weight for my list of 5.28 pounds.

    Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 15:57:49 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    final questions. on 11/28/2005 15:44:13 MST Print View

    is there a lighter snow shovel option?

    could the snow shoes serve this purpose?

    Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 15:49:36 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    concerning snowshoes as shovels on 11/28/2005 16:00:10 MST Print View

    Ryan--the answer is snowshoes are better than nothing if that's all you have to dig with (in the right kind of snow) but not a whole lot better. The blade of a snowclaw or a real snow shovel really helps----especially when carving out
    the interior walls and platform. This is not a good area to shortchange RJ.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: concerning snowshoes as shovels on 11/28/2005 16:05:58 MST Print View

    on Carol Crookers last SUL trip, she used a Mountainsmith Wisp modified to three-quarter top bag. this is 13.6oz after modifacation, and the wisp is a 30 degree bag right?

    do you think this bag will work for Ryan?

    also carol used a PAC uber micro pad.

    I quote Micheal Martin

    "I estimate Ryan J's system (a GG nightlite torso pad over a full length Oware 1/4" pad, doubled layer to 1/2" thick under the legs) would provide about R3.1 under the torso and R1.7 under the legs.

    5/8"under torso and 1/2" under legs
    well I thought up another system:

    05.30 full 3/8" thinlight
    03.00 1" PAC uber micro
    01.90 1/8" thinlight cut in half and doubled for under legs
    10.20 total with 1 3/8" under torso and
    5/8"under legs

    Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 16:18:32 MST.

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Ryan's Winter Challenge-Final List?? on 11/28/2005 16:18:13 MST Print View

    Ryan F, You seem to list socks twice and it looks like the same sock. But the weight is listed as 2.0oz once and 1.5oz in the other place. This might give you and extra .5oz.

    I also have the same GG Sunglasses but I changed the larger cord lock with a "mini-lock" and saved .05 of and ounce.

    Do you really think Ryan needs the Tilley Hat? I have one and don't think it will provide much in heat for his head. Can one of the Balaclava be rolled up and worn like a knit cap?

    Looks like something could be wrapped around Ryans head when he is at camp or sleeping and dump the 3oz Nunatak Down Balaclava.

    Can the SpinSack covert into something for his head at night? Maybe with the PossumDown Gloves stuffed in it.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Ryan's Winter Challenge-Final List?? on 11/28/2005 16:28:44 MST Print View

    huh...

    loosing the down balaclava would get us back under 5 pounds.

    i'll look into other options.

    could the down hood be worn in place of other and not have to be carried?

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Final factoids and concerns on 11/28/2005 16:44:36 MST Print View

    Bill-- the Nunatak balaclava (or the hood on the Belay Jacket on Bob's list) should not be thought of as only being used for the sleeping system. Chances are that it would be worn at other times as well, including during travel if conditions deteriate and certainly at rest stops or in camp. Something jury rigged isn't the best solution at those times.

    The Tilley hat would not be my 1st choice but some sort of sun cap or visor is necessary should Mr. Sun come out and play. My Patagonia Airius cap weighs in at 1 oz.

    Are those GG sunglasses robust enough to rely on for this venture? Should he have an extra (w/ such minimal weight as a penalty)?

    Ryan F.-- we are beginning to play accountant games.
    I would rather miss achieving 5 # than to "cheat" our way by moving things around between worn vs. carried.

    Your pad system sounds interesting.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 16:50:29 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Ryan's Winter Challenge-Final List?? on 11/28/2005 16:48:22 MST Print View

    The montbell Climaplus200 north pole cap would be worn and eliminate tilley with the visor and will be warm enough if combined with
    a Seirus Neofleece® Comfort Masque™ packed at 1 oz saving two

    and I wasent trying to cheat by moving the down hood to carried. it just replaces the existing worn bala and then there is no need to pack it. I dont know if this will work better than the MB hat

    and by interesting pad system, do you mean I finally came up with something that will work? :-)

    Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 16:57:26 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Ryan's Noggin System on 11/28/2005 16:57:58 MST Print View

    RF-- would it be warm enough? Would it be comfortable to sleep in? Have you tried this out?---we shouldn't just catalog shop our way to a desired outcome.
    That being said, it looks interesting. That is, not dismissed out of hand.

    catching up--Ryan--I'm not calling you a cheater, just a caution about potential slippery slopes. Pad system on paper looks like it will work, just no personal experience w/ the Pac uber micro--has not been on my radar. Pax.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 17:10:16 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Ryan's Noggin System on 11/28/2005 17:03:17 MST Print View

    the visor is removable to sleep in,so I dont think that will be a problem.

    and its got 200wt. fleece and gore tex shell, sounds warm to me, but I dont know for sure.

    and I have slept in a neoprene face mask of similar design with no problem.

    also, has anyone considered Carol's modified 30 degree mountainsmith wisp bag at 13.6oz?

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Carol's bag on 11/28/2005 17:17:56 MST Print View

    I didn't notice any details about CC's modified Wisp so it's hard to make a judgement about it. Some people consider the Wisp to have an over rated temp. rating. Loft and the design and quality of the conversion would tell the tale.

    I trust Nunatak.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 17:22:16 MST.

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Ryan's Winter Challenge-Final List?? on 11/28/2005 17:27:04 MST Print View

    The only really cold weather hiking I do is in the Mt Washington, NH/Northen Maine area. With the high wind speeds around the Mt Washington area most of the time and the very cold temperatures I never go without Ski Goggles and a Neoprene mask so my whole face is covered. Anything less up there and "frost bite" can become a real problem.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    A sin of Omission on 11/28/2005 18:36:33 MST Print View

    Guys--- we forgot to add any kind of windscreen/heat reflector for the cooking system.
    Do not pass "GO" add 2 oz. to the gearlists.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 18:44:42 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: A sin of Omission on 11/28/2005 18:55:21 MST Print View

    dang, another 2oz.

    could RJ dig into the snow to form a natural wind barrier?

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Ryan's Winter Challenge-Final List?? on 11/28/2005 18:56:29 MST Print View

    so should we go with the MB hat and facemask combo or just the nunatak down bala?

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Goggles and face protection on 11/28/2005 18:57:22 MST Print View

    Rarely do I take goggles into Winter activities unless I'm Alpine Skiing or Ice Climbing. I do take a pair of Sports glasses that cover more face area than the usual pair of sunglasses. Mine are currently Spy Optics Microscoops (1.1 oz.).

    I've used various balaclavas incorporating vented
    nose pieces (removable) that covers the whole face unlike the usual balaclava. I currently use an old OR piece, I don't know what it's called but weighs in at under 3 oz.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    current WSUL list on 11/28/2005 19:11:05 MST Print View

    My curent list

    Clothing
    10.00 RBH Designs Proto VB Jacket
    05.20 Mont Bell thermawrap inner vest (2004)
    05.00 Warmlite VB pants
    04.00 Montane Featherlight Pants
    02.80 montbell Climaplus200 north pole cap
    01.00 Seirus Polar Scarf
    07.00 Golite MW tight
    08.50 patgonia MW zip T
    04.00 Bozeman Mountain Works FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
    01.10 PossumDown Gloves



    Footwear
    02.00 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks
    03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
    24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
    16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
    35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

    Other Items Worn / Carried
    00.30 GG Sunglasses
    01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCore Plus lanyard
    01.30 Suunto X6
    05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles
    01.50 snow baskets
    00.25 Photon Freedom Micro LED Light (Backup light)on aircore 1 spectra cord
    00.20 sunscreen GG mini

    138.55 ounces
    Total worn or carried 8.66 pounds


    Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
    00.00 Snow Cave
    16.00 Arc X Quilt
    03.60 Vapor NANO Bivy
    03.00 PAC outdoor uberlight micro
    01.90 Gossamer Gear thinLight 1/8" cut in half and doubled under legs
    05.30 Gossamer Gear ThinLight 3/8"
    05.40 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel
    08.50 Cocoon Jacket
    06.50 Quantum down knickers
    01.50 Smartwool Lightweight Wool Liner Socks


    Pack
    03.70 Gossamer Gear G6

    Cook/Hydration
    02.45 Trangia 1 L. SaucePan
    00.20 Foil lid
    00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
    00.30 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
    02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
    08.00 modified Xtreme stove
    02.40 170g canister empty
    00.42 BPL Ti foil windscreen and aluminum base

    Essentials
    02.80 petzel tikkia plus
    01.00 Blister & minor would care supplies
    00.50 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares - 1 / day
    00.25 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle
    01.50 Candles
    00.75 wenger esquire knife
    00.25 alosak to organize essentials

    79.42 ounces
    Total Packed 4.97 pounds

    Edited by ryanf on 12/07/2005 19:48:18 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Fine tuning RF's list on 11/28/2005 19:41:17 MST Print View

    The Nunatak balaclava should be considered as packed( it will be both worn and carried at times). I would use this with a lighter balaclava or a possum wool cap for various activity levels. Either that or a insulated hood (if something like the Belay jacket was on your list) and balaclava combo, would, I think be adequate.

    Why the heavy Golite Mesh Cap? There are lighter brimmed caps out there.

    A metal windscreen up close to the cookpot/stove helps to speed things up thru heat reflection. Yes, snow to block the wind is part of a Winter setup but not complete.

    I meant the Golite MW baselayer ( not the Endurance, sorry) which is 7oz. Save an oz. (yay!)

    Smartwool sox should be changed to a quicker drying synthetic of the same weight, like Patagonia Capilene sox.

    Add about 1.5 oz. for snow baskets for the Stix.

    Does your essentials list factor in sun screen/lip balm ?

    Your list is almost there. ;-)>

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Fine tuning RF's list on 11/28/2005 20:14:18 MST Print View

    I added 1.5oz to snow baskets
    changed to golite MW tights
    changed down balaclava to MB hat and Seirus Polar Scarf combo to eliminate cap
    and added Ti windscreen. is the .28oz weight correct?
    still under 5.


    I think the hat combo will work for this purpouse. he wont heat up too much while hiking because he can raise earflaps to ventilate but when at camp he has 200wt. fleece and a shell. he can also pull the Seirus Polar Scarf off face while hiking if it gets to hot, and it will still serve as a neck gaiter, and keep it accesible if it cools off.
    this system is very versatile and can be adjusted easialy while hiking but will still be warm at camp.

    Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 20:26:03 MST.


    (Anonymous)
    Headlamp on 11/28/2005 20:23:05 MST Print View

    Unless I missed something, I think the Tikka Plus should be changed to the Zipka Plus, which would give us the same light module at a weight of 2.3 oz instead of 2.8 for the Tikka.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    KD's gearlist composite on 11/28/2005 20:25:44 MST Print View

    This is to show Bob's latest list modified to incorporate some aspects which were adopted in Ryan F.'s list and is geared to offer a little more of a warmth buffer should things go south. Particularly by favoring synthetic insulation over use of down (except sleeping bag). Bob--please don't hit me.
    If we vote on lists I think it would be good to have 2 to choose from. We have a somewhat more "bleeding edge" one compiled by Ryan faulkner and a slightly more (cough) "conservative" one here.

    Clothing
    -------
    10.00 RBH Designs Proto VB Jacket
    02.50 Golite CTE Balaclava ( improved face pro)
    01.00 Patagonia Airius (Sun hat)
    04.00 Montane Featherlight Pants
    07.00 Golite MW Tights
    05.00 VB Pants
    08.50 Patagonia MW zip Cap shirt
    04.00 Bozeman Mountain Works FeatherLite Vapor Mitts
    01.10 PossumDown Gloves

    Footwear
    --------
    02.00 Patagonia MW Cap Socks
    03.00 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
    24.00 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
    16.00 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
    35.00 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

    Other Items Worn / Carried
    -----------------------
    00.50 Sunglasses
    01.00 Fox 40 Mini Whistle, AirCode Plus lanyard
    01.30 Suunto X6
    05.40 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles
    01.50 Snow baskets for Stix(weight guesstimate)
    00.22 Photon Freedom Micro LED Light (Backup light)
    00.20 Sunscreen-- GG Mini Sunscreen
    ------------------
    132.81 ounces
    Total worn or carried( not in pack) 8.30 pounds
    ----------------------------------------

    Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
    --------------------------
    00.00 Snow Cave
    16.00 Arc X Quilt
    03.60 Vapor NANO Bivy
    03.70 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso
    05.30 Gossamer Gear 3/4 length ThinLight 3/8" glued to…
    01.70 Oware 1/4" Foam Pad (cut to 19.5 W x 30 L)
    05.75 SnowClaw Backcountry Snow Shovel
    14.00 BMW Prototype eVENT Cocoon Belay Jacket
    07.50 BMW Cocoon Pants
    01.50 Patagonia Capilene LW Socks (extra pair)
    03.00 Marmot Ion Windshirt--if available (L for layering purposes) otherwise Golite Ether

    Pack
    ----
    03.70 Gossamer Gear G6

    Cook/Hydration
    --------------
    02.45 Trangia 1 L. SaucePan
    00.20 Foil lid
    00.40 Backpacking Light Titanium Mini-Spork
    00.30 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
    02.80 Nalgene Wide-Mouth Cantene 3 L
    08.00 Coleman Xtreme (modified)
    02.40 170 g. Cartridge (empty)
    00.42 Windscreen/ heat reflector system

    Essentials
    --------
    02.80 Petzl Tikka Plus (w/ lithium batts.)--I think this is a good compromise in lighting and longer lasting than the EOS. Better than lighter Zipka because of it's pivot adjustment.
    01.00 Blister & minor wound care supplies
    00.75 Wenger Esquire knife
    00.50 TP: 4"x4" blue shop towel squares
    00.25 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle
    01.50 Candles (2) Uco--cut down by 1/3
    00.25 Aloksak to organize essentials
    --------------------
    89.80 ounces
    Base Weight 5.61 pounds
    -----------------------------
    pre-food/fuel/water skin out weight = 13.91 lbs.
    -----------------------------------------
    Food allowance is up to 32 oz./day
    Initial Water allowance is up to Ryan Jordan
    Fuel weight is 6 oz.
    TP to be packed out if cannot be burned
    -------------------------------------------

    With either the sub6 or sub5 gearlists, the ultimate skin out weights will be surprisingly not so different.

    12/1-- A modded Xtreme Stove is now added w/ the smaller Powermax fuel canister ( this is on BPL stove editor Roger Coffin's advice--we know who to blame) ;-)>
    If the Xtreme mod is N/A --the MSR Simmerlite (8.5 oz.) could be substituted ( with a significant weight penalty due to fuel consumption). Stock Xtreme is another option.
    12/2 Changed powerstretch balaclava to Golite CTE
    which protects a greater area of the face than previous.
    12/2 Candles modified to 16-18 hr.burntime w/
    cut down "15 hr." Uco candles.
    --Sunscreen is now more sensibly transferred to "worn" list.
    12/4 Marmot Ion replaces Ether Windshirt (more versatile because of full zip and in Quantum)
    Wenger knife added
    "Pack out TP if cannot burn" principle added
    Sunscreen/lipbalm weight corrected
    Nano-bivy weight corrected
    12/7 Simmerlite kicked out of consideration as an alternative to the Xtreme. In it's place, the MSR Wind Pro--stock or modified is suggested. Stock w/ empty 220 Canister a net change of an additional .4 oz. would be added to the base weight. Subtract .7 oz. if the RF modification is used.

    Edited by kdesign on 12/08/2005 10:04:30 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Headlamp on 11/28/2005 20:32:21 MST Print View

    thanks anon

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    sub 5 vs. sub 6 on 11/28/2005 20:33:53 MST Print View

    here it is.

    sub 5
    vs.
    sub 6

    Edited by ryanf on 11/28/2005 20:36:27 MST.

    Peter McDonough
    (crazypete) - F

    Locale: Above the Divided Line
    Headlamp Revisited on 11/28/2005 20:40:49 MST Print View

    The Zipka can be positioned by moving it up and down on the forehead to adjust beam angle(the natural curve of our sometimes thick skulls takes care of that :-D ). Oh, and whoever said the Tikka is a 1 watt LED is incorrect, as the Tikka(and the Zipka) both use clusters of a less powerful variety.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Headlamps. on 11/28/2005 20:47:18 MST Print View

    I noticed, Ryan you changed your headlamp to the Zipka plus. Please to know that it's wire reel mechanism gets clogged by dirt and snow and it lacks a pivot ( which the Tikka has) which is nice to use in aiming light in variable circumstances.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Clear alternatives--sub 5 and sub 6 on 11/28/2005 20:50:27 MST Print View

    I like it---it's good to have clearly defined parties.
    ;-)>

    Peter McDonough
    (crazypete) - F

    Locale: Above the Divided Line
    Headlamp Again on 11/28/2005 20:53:58 MST Print View

    I guess I'm a big Zipka fan, but the mechanism would only get clogged with dirt and snow if you threw it on the ground, and even then it would require a lot of effort to jam that sucker. If its snowing you could tuck the reel under your stocking cap if it really worried you, but otherwise its not a problem. After all, we're ultralighters, and we treat our gear with respect, right guys?

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Headlamp Sadism on 11/28/2005 21:01:40 MST Print View

    Respect? Ha! Ve torture our equipment in ze field lab.:-)>

    Edited by kdesign on 11/28/2005 21:38:58 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Headlamp Sadism on 11/29/2005 04:09:08 MST Print View

    Kevin shouldent you have Ryan wwear the VB pants on the trail? the golite tights may not do it for him?

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    VB pants and VB clothing on 11/29/2005 10:58:59 MST Print View

    Absolutely, Ryan. This is what happens when one is utilizing another's compilation. I will change this.
    sub6

    I wanted to bring up something that has been bothering me since we more or less adopted VB clothing as a key part of this shindig.

    VB clothing (as well as a VBL liner in a sleeping bag) need to be as close to the skin as possible to be as comfortable and effective as possible. I know this may sound counter-intuitive to people who are't familiar w/ such systems, but it seems to be the consensus of most users.
    So. if you don't add additional layers (usually) under VB clothing that means to increase warmth one adds layers over them. So, what would be the most effective layers to add?
    On the move, even, there will be times in which,say, the VB pants will not be sufficient. Adding insulated pants or knickers (such as are on the lists) may prove too warm a combo. What about something in between for those in between times? Is it too radical a suggestion to use baselayers on the outside of the VB system? Remember, we are talking low humidity/ "dry" snow conditions. The VB would act as the windblock element. Or is something else, entirely, in order?

    I have only used VB clothing with more traditional layers and was not too happy with it ( as I've mentioned before) and since then have relied on softshell/insulated clothing/baselayer combos.
    This will be too heavy and bulky for the SUL job which is why I have backed the use of VB clothing as being the only realistic means of achieving warmth w/ low weight/bulk penalties. Even w/ my lack of success in using VB clothing ( from a comfort standpoint---I felt too muggy inside) they definately provided an amazing degree of warmth.

    I would like someone with personal VB experience to make suggestions of add'l layers to be used as a part of the system. It's out of my purview.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/29/2005 11:34:28 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: VB pants and VB clothing on 11/29/2005 13:14:10 MST Print View

    KD,
    are you saying with the VB clothing, Ryan will ve too warm?

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    the VB thang on 11/29/2005 13:56:19 MST Print View

    Ryan--what I'm saying is that w/ the clothing systems we have provided, he could have a choice of being too cold and perhaps too warm. There may not be enough system versatility.
    I'm also saying there are issues peculiar to using VB clothing that I'm not in a position to answer as a expert.

    I suspect the ideal system is VB against the skin, followed by insulation layer(s) with a shell on top. The shell doubling as lightweight add'l insulation (by trapping air) and to protect the more delicate insulation layers below from abrasion (whether from pack straps or scrapes with the terrain) and from external moisture ( threats of insulation degradation).
    A traditional baselayer would be jettisoned.

    If I were to use such a system, again, I would need to be able to have quick and ample venting options.
    Not only because I tend to overheat but also that my Winter trips are over much larger temperature spreads than RJ says he will be in.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/29/2005 14:46:00 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    wear pants on 11/29/2005 14:52:49 MST Print View

    Why not just have him wear soft-shell pants like in the Winter Checklist and then pack the VB Pants for digging and sleeping. You'll still be under six and RJ will be more comfortable. I'd personally prefer to carry the extra 5oz and not have to be running around in VB pants all day.

    Bob

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: the VB thang on 11/29/2005 14:57:02 MST Print View

    Bob,
    remember, it will be under 32 degrees the whole trip, so wearing VB and a base layer will probably not be uncomfortable, and if he gets too hot he can roll up the VB pants to ventilate.

    Kevin,
    I dont think we have to worry about overheating. Imean he has a quilt and if he heats up, he can easialy loosen the straps to allow more ventilation.
    and I found the best way to cool off while sleeping is too take off my hat temporarily and keep close by until I get to cool, and then put it back on

    Edited by ryanf on 11/29/2005 14:59:37 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    VB thang stuff on 11/29/2005 15:11:33 MST Print View

    Ryan--you mistake me. I'm not worried about overheat issues when sleeping. It's about the VB clothing system being used at all other times and whether or not we are giving RJ enough.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Softshell w/ VB on 11/29/2005 15:16:19 MST Print View

    That's one of the alternatives, Bob.
    There are people who literally live in their VB clothing for days at a time---some of my old expedition climbing acquaintances have done so. Wish I could. Maybe I should try it again w/ the newer VB materials RBH seems to be using.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    list comparisons. on 11/29/2005 15:48:36 MST Print View

    I compared the 5 lb list and 6 lb list and here are the major differences

    KEY: 5lb./6lb.

    MB climaplus north pole cap and seirus polar scarf/powerstretch balaclava and sun hat

    .3oz glasses/.5oz

    1 3/8" torso padding and 5/8" leg padding/1 1/8" torso padding and 5/8" lag padding.

    classic cocoon jacket(use hat as hood insulation)/Proto. belay jacket

    down knickers/cocoon pants

    BPL Ti windscreen/2oz windscreen setup

    BMW stuffsack/heavier stuffsack

    coleman xtreme/ MSR simerlite

    hmm.... the 5lb padding is thicker?
    with MB hat and polar scarf and cocoon jacket the 5lb. makes a more versatile system and eliminates the need for a sun hat and extra balaclava. and while sleeping is easier to regulate heat.
    I think the down pants will provide more warmth.
    the GG (.3) sunglasses are goggle like.

    more info on noggin system:
    I think the hat combo will work for this purpouse. he wont heat up too much while hiking because he can raise earflaps to ventilate but when at camp he has 200wt. fleece and a shell. he can also pull the Seirus Polar Scarf off face while hiking if it gets to hot, and it will still serve as a neck gaiter, and keep it accesible if it cools off.
    this system is very versatile and can be adjusted easialy while hiking but will still be warm at camp.

    Edited by ryanf on 11/29/2005 16:04:17 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Ryan's list comps. on 11/29/2005 16:16:52 MST Print View

    The Ti windscreen was designed for alcohol and esbit stoves ( I just got mine for that reason). You would need to adapt it (if possible) for the Xtreme or Simmerlite. If a less than 2oz. windscreen that works is on the table, I'm cool w/ it.

    The headwear comparisons should reflect that the Belay Jacket hood is used along w/ the sunhat and balaclava.
    I dunno about the MB hat --it just looks so...dorky ;-)>

    If people think the GG glasses will do--fine. They are also light enough to take a reserve pair, if deemed appropriate.

    Ryan--add some sunscreen/lip balm

    Nano stuffsacks all around--I bet RJ can dig up a couple.

    I think you came up w/ a doable pad system, RF. Good for you. Did Carol C. say something about the Pac pad you propose using?

    I would prefer the Xtreme stove, myself, but a useable modded weight is still unknown.

    I don't know if the down knickers are warmer but the Cocoon pants are a safer bet if things go South and things get wet or frozen. Which is why I favor the Cocoon Belay jacket/Pants combo over yours. I will say that ditching the Nunatak balaclava in favor of the Montbell hat/mask, makes the synthetic/ down use biases less apparent.
    I also would say that the Nunatak balaclava would have made for the cosiest sleeping system.
    ( I just broke in my new Nunatak Arc bag over the holidays on an overnight and I know what my next purchase to winterize it will be)

    By the by--Ryan, me, Bob, anyone else---we should hotlink to the respective lists from time to time.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/29/2005 16:38:05 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Ryan's list comps. on 11/29/2005 16:42:43 MST Print View

    Kevin, You have a Ti windscreen, do you see anyreason it wont work with these stoves? you may have to cut a port for the tube to go through but thats all unless there is any other reasons.

    the hat may look dorky, I agree, but I think it is the best option. it is easy to adjust ventilation for different temperatures, and this all around topper keeps the head system simple, eliminating sun hat and, and if the looks are the only problem, well RyanJ, just dont post any pictures of you in it.

    you all know I am tollerant for cold, but I would like to mention, that I have used a hoodlees bag to 10 degrees with only a fleece beenie, so for me, both systems are overkill. but for Ryan J. both will work fine, but the MB hat system is lighter.

    whats the weight for the small size nano stuff sacks?

    I think Bill Fornshell has got the Xtreme stove down to 7oz, but said that it makes it hard to atatch to the canister in cold conditions, so we should go with the 8oz version.

    the GG glasses are very flexible, and can be rolled up, so they may be hard to break unlike traditional sunglasses with plastic frames.
    Ryans sub 5 list
    Kevins sub 6 list

    Edited by ryanf on 11/29/2005 16:50:14 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    back to ya, RF on 11/29/2005 17:01:04 MST Print View

    The Ti windscreen is only about 3.5 " high and is obviously meant to rest on the ground--- not high enough to function with the stoves we're talking about. One would need to create a base that attaches to the pot supports to rest the wind screen
    on and of course cut and shaped to work w/ whatever pot is going along for the job. That base is probably going to need to be made from a stiffer (and heavier) material than the Ti foil.

    But why the 8 oz. figure for the Xtreme, Ryan? It seems arbitrary. I don't think anyone has produced
    a modded one at that weight, yet. It may not be practical for cold weather operation (taking the canister on and off) to modify it at all.

    As to Nano stuff sacks--ask RJ--he has alluded to their (future) existance.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    and something about hats and hoods on 11/29/2005 17:20:00 MST Print View

    In digging out a snowcave, I've noticed that snow invariably tries to sneak into any breaks in the clothing system possible. Like down the neck and down the back of pants ( but alas, no salopettes or bibs seem to be going on this trip).

    One thing I like about having a hooded jacket along is that you get that added neck pro. No spindriff going anywhere down my back. Would the North Pole Hat and Polar Scarf provide enough?
    Or is this another reason to have something like the Cocoon Belay Jacket along?

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: back to ya, RF on 11/29/2005 17:21:31 MST Print View

    I quote Micheal Martin

    Ryan writes:

    >> do you know the weight of the striped stove set up?

    Ryan. I'd tentatively figure 8oz for the stove. This could be achieved with a mild stripping. The final weight may even be less.
    "end quote"

    We could go with the 7 oz version, but Bill fornshell says its dificult to attatch to the cartrige w/o practice.

    and about the windscreen,
    Ryan could dig down the snow under the stove 1 inch or so, and leave the windscreen sitting 1 inch higher than the stove base. giving an extra inch to the screen.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Xtreme at 8 oz./info needed & Windscreens on 11/29/2005 17:31:11 MST Print View

    Michael Martin---please phone home. We need particulars about your stripped down unit and did he observe that it would be practical in the Temps. being discussed.

    It's a clever thought, Ryan. I think there could be both issues of stove heat melting away the snow support and the reduced clearances of what you are proposing could starve the air supply of the stove, although the holes punched in the foil could mitigate the latter. These high output stoves use a lot of O.

    When I've built windbreaks for stoves from snow, they are much further away.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/29/2005 17:35:04 MST.

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Xtreme Stove for Ryan's .... on 11/29/2005 18:01:28 MST Print View

    What about sitting the stove and the wind screen on the Snow Claw. The one you have listed for Ryan's trip is about 12" square. This may support the Xtreme (or what ever stove), canister and windscreen without sinking into the snow under it.

    Is Ryan going to hike to a different "over-night" sleeping spot each day or stay in one place?

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    re.Xtreme Stove for Ryan's on 11/29/2005 18:27:04 MST Print View

    Bill --not sure I follow your idea. I don't see how it helps a ti foil windscreen set up. Please enlighten.

    As a base for stove and fuel, I put mine on a foam pad to prevent things from sinking and to keep the fuel and fuel line insulated from the snow.

    I would hope that Dr. J is not base camping and will be making epic inroads before setting up camp again.

    Michael Martin
    (MikeMartin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: North Idaho
    Re: Xtreme at 8 oz. on 11/29/2005 19:33:46 MST Print View

    KD writes:

    >> Michael Martin---please phone home. We need particulars about your stripped down unit...

    This is what I had in mind. The components shown weigh 8.0oz. The BPL Ti Esbit stand shown is (unfortunately) not useable with this stove and is only representative of a similar (and so far unbuilt) Ti stand as described here.

    Cheers,

    -Mike

    Edited by MikeMartin on 11/29/2005 19:49:23 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Xtreme at 8 oz.--thanks MM on 11/29/2005 20:04:08 MST Print View

    So you still use the stock Magnesium block and no worries about the cold weather use issue. Great. Someone just needs to get the ti rod stock and build it.

    The question is --can Ryan J. get his hands on a modded one (by building or by having it built) in time for his thrilling adventure? Inquiring minds would like to know. I would love to see the Xtreme taken along.

    There is also Curt Peterson's modded version ( on the same page as MM's link above) which uses an inverted Pocket Rocket stand.

    Bill Fornshell
    (bfornshell) - MLife

    Locale: Southern Texas
    Xtreme Stove for Ryan's .... on 11/29/2005 20:32:43 MST Print View

    "As a base for stove and fuel, I put mine on a foam pad to prevent things from sinking and to keep the fuel and fuel line insulated from the snow."

    Will Ryan have a foam pad to use?

    I am getting a new toy next Friday.



       "Click on Picture to Enlarge"


    With this I should be able to mill/drill the extra metal off the casting on the Xtreme stove. My goal will be to remove 60% min of the current weight. If my learning curve is quick I should know by the end of the weekend.

    My current version of the Xtreme has a stove stand and then a separate stand for the cook pot. The stand for the cook pot is made like the one on my Coffee Can Wood stove. I will post a few pictures tomorrow. I still have a couple of ideas that I need to try and some material that I can't get till Wednesday morning.

    Edited by bfornshell on 11/29/2005 20:37:16 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Xtreme at 8 oz./info needed & Windscreens on 11/29/2005 21:00:20 MST Print View

    Hmmm....

    Bill,
    I want to know the weight estimation of your future Xtreme.

    for now, what weight should I put down for the Xtreme stove?

    Kevin, if you put some aluminum foil down under the stove, would this keep the stove from melting the suport?

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Windscreen suport on 11/29/2005 21:10:32 MST Print View

    Ok, I just had an idea.

    the stove is used on the snow claw and on opposite sides of the stove you put the edges of the uberlight on one side
    and stacked thinlights on the other. this gives 1 inch on either side for the wind sreen to sit on and 1 inch of ventilation on two sides.
    the 1" uber torso on one side.
    2 halfs of 1/8" thinlight ,eg insulation and full length 3/8" thinlight folded in half, creating a toal of 1" stand on either side of the stove for the windscreen to sit on

    Edited by ryanf on 11/29/2005 21:12:10 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    more windscreen supports w/o the torture element on 11/29/2005 21:30:53 MST Print View

    There are easier ways to use the Ti windscreen with the Xtreme (or Simmerlite if somebodies don't produce a modded X).
    I would cut from an aluminum pie tin the same kind of base/heat reflector that I use for my Gigapower canister stove. What I'm talking about can be found in it's less refined form here--
    http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/00041.html

    It could be modified to fit whatever stand ends up being used for the modded Xtreme. It weighs in at
    1/4 oz. That and the Ti foil screen would weigh in at practically nothing---well say .35 oz. plus a paperclip.

    Bill---RJ will have plenty of foam pads available. Best of luck on the operation and congrats on the cool new tool. Keep us posted in realtime.

    and with this---talk to all in the AM

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: more windscreen supports w/o the torture element on 11/29/2005 21:35:46 MST Print View

    is the simmmerlite an option still?

    Jim Colten
    (jcolten)

    Locale: MN
    is a modified extreme stove a plan for success?? on 11/29/2005 21:44:25 MST Print View

    The stove discussion is very good stuff for the early stages of invention but since we're planning on sending him out with this kit I just gotta ask ... "What reason will we have to think it will work for this trip?"

    How much time will needed to manufacture, field test and ship the stove to MT?

    By field test, I mean a few simulations of the expected use:
    * stove and fuel exposed to worst expected conditons for 42 hrs
    * cooking 4 meals at hours 8, 20, 28 and 42
    * melting snow for Ryan's anticipated water consumption in however many batches he expects to make.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Windscreens/ Xtreme issues on 11/30/2005 11:45:20 MST Print View

    RF-- using my base/reflector and ti foil sized for the pot currently on the list yields a weight of .42 oz. The base could be made from a lighter gauged aluminum and weight would be about .35 oz.
    This is on a need to know basis. We shouldn't quibble over a few grams on this item.

    Also, Ryan, I think more people are interested in seeing the Xtreme on the list. The Simmerlite is mentioned as an alternative if the modded Xtreme
    for whatever reasons isn't going to be available.

    Jim-- the modifications won't effect the function of the stove (which, stock, has a highly reliable reputation). It won't, not work. Besides, which, Ryan Jordan wants to be a guinea pig ( he's a highly experienced lab, I mean field rat)---he'll be taking some protoypes of various sorts on this trip. It's part of the fun of this whole exercise.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Windscreens/ Xtreme issues on 11/30/2005 12:56:17 MST Print View

    I have .7oz to spare on a base for the windscreen to make the Ti windscreen work and still be under 5 lbs.

    is .42oz the total with the windscreen and base, or yhe base alone. will work with Xtreme stove with the base?

    Edited by ryanf on 11/30/2005 13:59:47 MST.

    Roger Caffin
    (rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

    Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
    Xtreme economy on 11/30/2005 14:12:12 MST Print View

    Away for a couple of days, and look at the traffic!

    Fuel consumption:
    I can only report what I use. Cooking for TWO people in summer I use 30 g per day. In winter without melting snow this goes up to about 40 g per day for TWO people. Melting snow adds a bit of course, but I can't give exact figures, because sometimes I get sneaky and burrow down to a creek. It's worth the effort.

    How do I get such good figures? Three things: lid on pot, windscreen around pot, and I run the stove on a medium to low setting. I am sure everyone knows about the first two factors. The windscreen actually does TWO things. It blocks the wind, which makes the stove a lot more efficient. But it also forces the hot air closer to the pot, which helps heat transfer.

    I cannot emphasise enough that the third one is equally as effective. By dropping down from a flat out burn to a more gentle burn, I halve the amount of fuel used. When the stove is running flat out there is a huge amount of heat wasted up the side of the pot. OK, it heats the snow cave or tent ...

    Manufacturers' claims about boil times are usually unverifiable (you can think of one notorious example quite easily!), but also totally pointless. Flames to the roof ...

    But there is another factor coming in here as well. I was looking at the amount of water Ryan J was talking about per day. I forget the exact amount, but it seemed a huge amount to me. In the snow I would be using less than 3 litres per day for everything. The amount of water to be used/melted is therefore something to consider carefully. But Ryan will have to decide this one himself.

    A foam pad (or lighter equivalent) under the stove AND canister is needed, but gee that could be light. 5 mm EVA 30 foam would be gallons. A bit of an old foam pad ...

    What all this means is that if RJ started out with some water in his pack for the first day (and that water is NOT counted in the base weight!) then he really only needs to plan for two days of water. Now a 170 g Powermax canister would give him 85 g of fuel per day. I still say that is enough. I still say he should have some left over when he gets home. But, hmmv.

    Cheers

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    re. Xtreme economy on 11/30/2005 14:38:36 MST Print View

    I absolutely agree on the value of a good windscreen system ( and it's multiple role) and it's a reason I don't rely on fashioning my windsreen system exclusively by building up snow walls around the cooking area.
    I can't challenge Roger's consumption figures because I don't have an Xtreme (though this will probably change). Boy, they sound good. I'm inclined to be a little conservative on the fuel amount issue because the stakes can be pretty high in Winter--particularly if a storm comes in and one is forced to wait it out.

    RF, the weights are base And ti-foil screen. I'm confident about the .42 oz. figure because they were actually weighed, not conjectured.

    Edited by kdesign on 11/30/2005 14:56:05 MST.

    Z W
    (dw586) - F
    an attempt on 11/30/2005 16:04:03 MST Print View

    assuming digging/constructing a snow cave, and a very well thought out clothing system worn including multiple thin base layers for swapping the bottom layer if needed to keep a dry base layer (i.e. socks and shirt, two thin wool would be my choice)

    08.0 pack G5
    -----
    08.0 pack

    10.0 pad insul mat sl mtn mod'd (cut 20% from 12.0)
    22.0 sleeping bag valandre mirage 20deg
    06.3 montbell wpb bivy (+5deg)
    02.5 space blanket bivy as vb liner (+5deg)
    02.5 light silk bag liner (+5deg)
    00.5 stuff sack
    -----
    43.7 shelter/sleeping

    01.5 extra socks
    01.2 extra beanie
    05.0 wm flight vest
    ----
    07.7 extra clothing

    02.5 ti stove snow peak (works down to 30deg, may have to dig a snow cave for cooking and swap canisters due to cooling as the stove is used)
    02.8 titan kettle no lid
    00.2 aluminum foil lid hand made
    02.2 1.5L nalgene wide mouth soft sided
    00.2 tough plastic spoon
    01.5 redundant fire kit
    00.2 windscreen
    -----
    09.6 cooking (no fuel or canister incl)

    01.6 scout HL
    02.0 first aid
    00.6 ladybug knife
    05.8 handle-less shovel
    00.5 essential toiletries (tp, dental)
    00.5 stuff sack
    ----
    11.0 other

    08.0 pack
    43.7 shelter+sleeping
    07.7 extra clothing
    09.6 kitchen (cheating slightly)
    11.0 other
    ----
    80.0

    Edited by dw586 on 11/30/2005 16:27:32 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: an attempt on 11/30/2005 17:54:52 MST Print View

    I like the idea of plastic spork. My KFC spork is .1oz. what do you think guys?

    what about canister stoves?
    I just striped a windpro and it is 4.7oz.

    anyone want to try to strip a simmerlite? it is the same design as the windpro.

    ZW, your list is sooo much different than previous, so I dont know. but it is a good attempt, and I am glad to see someone else produce a sub 5 list. (even though it may not work, sorry)

    Edited by ryanf on 11/30/2005 17:59:46 MST.

    Peter McDonough
    (crazypete) - F

    Locale: Above the Divided Line
    Hydration on 11/30/2005 21:06:14 MST Print View

    Why are we carrying the 2.8 oz nalgene? Why not several smaller and much lighter gatogade or soda bottles?

    Peter McDonough
    (crazypete) - F

    Locale: Above the Divided Line
    Snow Shovel on 11/30/2005 21:10:58 MST Print View

    Let's drill holes in the snow shovel to cut weight.

    Peter McDonough
    (crazypete) - F

    Locale: Above the Divided Line
    Pads on 11/30/2005 21:14:27 MST Print View

    Insulation is created by creating dead air space, so we could take the pads and take out 3/8" holes out of each pad, which would reduce the weight of each by at least half an ounce. The holes should be placed in differing locations so they do not overlap, and thus increase the dead air space.

    Joshua Mitchell
    (jdmitch) - F

    Locale: Kansas
    Re: Pads / Dead Air Space on 12/01/2005 08:48:27 MST Print View

    The problems with large holes in pads is that as the holes get bigger, the isulating ability of the 'dead' air is reduced as the air no longer becomes 'dead' it's got enough space to move around every time you make the slightest shift in how you are laying (even by breathing). the CCF pads already have tiny 'voids' througout the material due to their molecular construction. drilling holes in the pads would be a BAD idea.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Completing the Layering system over VB on 12/01/2005 10:27:01 MST Print View

    Chatting with members of the mtneering community, including some Alaskan hands, I'm adapting some of their input ( in a UL way) to adding one more layer to the clothing system that is expressed in my adaptation of BobG's and John Shannon's list and RF's list.

    sub6


    The goal is to provide a thermal "sandwich" that would be adaptable to various levels of activity and to be better suited (pun intended) for digging out snow caves.

    My solution includes Reed Pants below the belt and a Golite Ether windshirt ( sized up for RJ to wear over his other layers. I elected to go non- waterproof on top for purposes of weight and the low humidy conditions (aka "dry" snow + very cold temperatures).

    The pants go as worn. The Windshirt as base weight.

    Edited by kdesign on 12/01/2005 10:50:32 MST.

    Bob Gabbart
    (bobg) - F
    Kevin's list on 12/01/2005 11:20:53 MST Print View

    Kevin,

    Your list is really shaping up.

    Bob

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Kevin's list on 12/01/2005 13:14:17 MST Print View

    I say go for the reed pants, but why dont we just size up th VB jacket so you could layer the cocoon under it at camp to protect from snow, but when he goes to bed put ut under the Cocoon because the VB is more efective next to skin. and there is no extra weight packet.

    check out the Xtreme modifacation thread for my stripped wind pro stove. It is a MSR canister, but weighs 4.7oz.
    is it an option?

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    more KD list stuff. on 12/01/2005 13:24:24 MST Print View

    Ryan F--why not link us to your modified Wind Pro.
    I was under the impression that you needed to develop a means to hold a pot and a means to invert the cylinder. So, I haven't considered it an option for this exercise.

    About the prototype RBH jacket---I don't know anything about it's cut but I suspect it would be fairly tight (that VB thang) and sizing up may not be enough for your layering scenario. It also doesn't do anything to protect and utilize the potental warmth of the MW shirt we both have on the lists--
    particularly when in travel mode.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Winter SUL List decision process/Deadline imminent on 12/01/2005 13:53:00 MST Print View

    There are a number of lists circulating on this thread, now. Decision needs to be finalized by next Wed., Dec. 7 as per Ryan Jordan's choice. 6 days.

    What sort of process to decide. Do people want to vote on each list? Do we let a relative handfold of us to decide thru group apathy? Do we post all of the lists and let RJ pick and choose from them all a la
    Chinese menu?

    Would Dr. Jordan give some sort of final critique in the next couple of days, allow us to modify our lists, and then decide as per the above?

    In short, what do we do next?

    And thanks, Bob

    Edited by kdesign on 12/01/2005 14:04:23 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: more KD list stuff. on 12/01/2005 15:40:51 MST Print View

    what is the stand on the stripped Xtreme stove? what is the weight?

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Stove stand weight for Xtreme on 12/01/2005 15:55:40 MST Print View

    I believe that Michael Martin and Carl Peterson both gave only total weights of their stripped down Xtremes( including stands). I did not remember seeing stand weights alone. Carl used a Pocket Rocket stand ( I seem to recall).

    If anyone is trying to make a stand from Ti rod stock, that would probably be the lightest option.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Re: more KD list stuff. on 12/01/2005 16:17:02 MST Print View

    For the extra layer I agree, I added the Reed pants, but since I am going sub 5, I am thinking of an alterenative to adding 3 oz to the packed weight.

    this is what I came up wwith.
    well, while skiing, I wear a under aurmor cold gear shirt,(comparable warmth to MW top) fleece vest and a not so breathable shell in temps well above 32 degrees, and down to.
    I have no experience with VB or snowshoeing (plan to start this up in WV this winter) but If we gave RJ a vest with a full zipper to wear he would be able to unzip it to ventalate. Again I havent snowshoed, but skiing is an active sport,(may be compareable to the action in snow shoeing) and with this system I dont over heat, and if I do, unzipp my jacket halfway, this cools me off and I zipp it back up.

    mabey a MB thermawrap vest a 5.2oz will work. any other options.
    this Is a usable system, and may add more warmth to the sleep system compared to the Golite wind shell.

    also, dose the VB jacket have a full zipp? if so this ventillation will work fine.

    Edited by ryanf on 12/01/2005 16:23:22 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    More layering finessing on 12/01/2005 16:38:41 MST Print View

    I think that the idea of a middle layer w/ a zip is a good one, to be used under a shell ( and over the VB). I think a middle layer should offer some arm and not just torso warmth, if it is to be one garment. The shell is, again, important for snow cave excavation as well as for working with the middle layer to be warmer system ( by blocking wind and trapping a static air layer).

    I don't know if the RBH prototype jacket is full zip or not.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: More layering finessing on 12/01/2005 16:44:49 MST Print View

    mabey an extra thin fleece jacket to be worn?

    I was thinking the vest be worn under the VB, but over makes more sense.

    also my personal experience with winter camping.

    I used a 45 degree bag and equinox bivi in 10 degree snow storm under a tarp with an under armor shirt, fleece vest, fleece jacket , and golite wisp. (and thin skipants and cotten pants, on a torso ridgerest, and 3/8" foam under legs) so just adding the vest, in my opinion, will keep RJ warm in his 32 degree bag, at zero degrees, considering, his jacket, vest, bag, pad system, shelter, pant system, head system and VB jacket is warmer than mine was.

    Edited by ryanf on 12/01/2005 16:48:15 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Sleeping system in snowcave on 12/01/2005 17:11:00 MST Print View

    Remember, Ryan F.---it will not be zero degrees inside the snowcave. In fact it will be quite a bit warmer. It would be warmer, still, if we gave RJ more than 1oz. worth of candle.

    I'm not worried about the warmth of his sleeping system.

    You wear cotten pants? In Winter? You got some kind of a death wish? ;-)>

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Sleeping system in snowcave on 12/01/2005 17:22:47 MST Print View

    actually 60% cotten and 40% polyester.
    I should get a pair of under aurmor tights, I know th "dangers" of cotten but for now I love these because they are very warm and comforatable, and I just make sure they dont get wet.
    they are actually designed for pajamas but oh well

    so will the vest work as I hoped?

    I am still under 5 pounds:-)

    Edited by ryanf on 12/01/2005 17:25:10 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    layers, layers, layers on 12/01/2005 17:39:00 MST Print View

    Two, no, three things, Ryan--
    1. The vest I don't see as something always or even mostly worn--I would put it in the Base Weight ( as I did the Wisp Windshirt). I know, you are clinging to sub 5 like a snow leech ;-)>

    2. I don't think the vest gives as much bang for the weight as the windshirt. Snowcave digging pro, blocking wind to make the MW layer more useful as thermal insulation, etc.

    3. The vest w/ a shell and the MW shirt would be a killer combo if you decided to ditch sub5. A highly versatile and lightweight combo in any season--and w/ the VB jacket, da bomb for low temp. UL Winter travel.

    have you noticed that only 3.2 oz. seperates our 2 lists when added as pre-food/ water/fuel skinout weights?

    Edited by kdesign on 12/01/2005 17:45:22 MST.

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: layers, layers, layers on 12/01/2005 17:45:17 MST Print View

    #1 this is what I wear, why would you not? with the full zip, it is easially ventilated.

    #2 I find that a vest used alone, dose almost nothing for insulation, but when used in a layering system, it is crucial to keep the central body heat up. and isint the VB jacket, windproof for digging?

    #3 Thanks.

    I want to make sure you understand that I beleive your system could work great, but I am just saying, mine will work great too, and it is truly SUL.

    Edited by ryanf on 12/01/2005 17:54:42 MST.

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Layers cubed on 12/01/2005 17:55:19 MST Print View

    Different experiences, Ryan. The vest would be in my pack a good deal of the time.

    Even w/ the vb jacket--I would want to wear a full sleeved, hooded shell when diggin' me shelter. Yar.

    But it's ok not to agree on everything and it's cool to have 2 different approaches to the same problem---this isn't mathematics, it's much, much more subjective.

    I think we are close to having other people weigh in. Whadyaya think?

    Is it sub5 or sub6 or a mix?

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Layers cubed on 12/01/2005 18:00:45 MST Print View

    Is the VB not full sleeved?

    I would just like to mention that My hat has a goretex shell

    yes, two options is good, so let me change gears.

    Vote for me! :-)

    kevin davidson
    (kdesign) - F

    Locale: Mythical State of Jefferson
    Endgame? on 12/01/2005 18:09:34 MST Print View

    Electioneering, eh? Ryan--you've been living around D.C. too long.
    Hopefully, we will hear what the silent majority thinks. May the better list ( or some combination thereof) "win".

    cheers!

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Re: Endgame? on 12/01/2005 18:20:28 MST Print View

    a new page already, wow they just keep on coming.

    Well, KD, the last 6 or 7 pages have been mostely me and you, and even though 90% of the time we were disagreeing, it has been great to talk to you. I hope RJ appreciates all this time we spent. but I am sure what ever gear Ryan takes he will survive, and even be comfoatable. (my list is just lighter :-P)

    Ryan Faulkner
    (ryanf) - F

    Locale: Mid atlantic, No. Cal
    Ryan Joradn and all, wee need your opi