no need for me to look. now that you mention it, i do recall having recently read that as i've followed the posts in this Thread. sorry, my memory is not so good any longer. IMHO, given the nature of the posts, you have a very wise reason for using the alias.

Edited by pj on 10/21/2005 03:32:47 MDT.

I have been out of the loop on this thread, so I'm sorry if this has already been brought up... but what I would add to the anon discussion is that really, we are all anonymous online. Just create a BPL account with the name Guy Incognito and be off to the races. It's actually extremely (I mean extremely!!!) rare to see an online forum where people use their real names. So BPL is really the exception to the rule. So it's really just in the context of this forum than an anon person bashing someone stands out. Elsewhere, it would barely be noticed. That's a GOOD thing though!!!... i.e... that this forum is not like most... BPL's users maintain a very civil and on-topic discourse.

Edited by davidlewis on 10/21/2005 05:09:25 MDT.

Jardine may suffer from depression or a bipolar disorder --- perhaps a little kinder view than "half nuts."

I found many of his concepts useful and enlightening (bad pun), and he did get it written down--- regardless if he was the originator of the concepts. Some of the things that raised my eyebrows were his ventures into nutrition and phobias of eating in restuarants. I had a lot of contact with the health food industry in the 1970's and I heard echos the same pseudo-science and wild-eyed talk. It was a little suprising to hear a trained engineer go off that way, but I guess it is physics vs. biology -- weight and materials are more his discipline.

In all my take from his book, the concept of getting down to the basics was the real core of the ultralight philosophy. The concept that really struck me was that we are not in a struggle or fight with nature, but that we live within it. We do not need to fear nature as we have for centuries--- we should have enough understanding of the environment to be free of the fears and superstitions we have of wilderness travel. The old pioneering concepts of man vs. nature goad us into wanting armor for clothing and shelter, rather than good, simple, efficient products that will keep us comfortable and able to enjoy the experience of being outdoors.

I don't know the man, only from the internet, I know people who have bought products from him here in Germany and are pleased with them. Ray's ideas have inspired us, we must admit. Personally I like the guy very much, much like me ;-) Oddly enough I have had thoughts why Ray (+ Jenny?) may be quitting their business. First many stores here in Germany use the trick, "we are closing",so that the customers buy now (and not later), but the store never actually closes. In fact a little bit against the law here in Germany but the trick is used all the time. The store finally closes only to reopen again under a new name, with same owner. Maybe Ray is using this sales trick? I hope he is not offened if he reads my post! Anyway I wish him and Jenny all the best for the future!
take care,
Bernd & Barbie (happy trails..!)
http://www.internetgenie.de

Edited by ofischel on 10/24/2005 00:44:59 MDT.

Why don't we just let Ray be bitter and not stoop to his level by being bitter about it our selves; besides if you really have any hatered toward his than it seems that you must have cherished him at some time and know his acquisitions that he talks about is hurting you deep down inside and you need to vent by writing these messages in hope that he may read it and it just might hurt him as much as it hurt you. Go cry to your mother.
I have been staying on top of everything that's been going on with Ray and it seems that posts like some of these is what led him to were he stands in the first place. Nothing that Ray has said has taken anything away from what he has done and what ever he his given to us through his experiences. Probably half of us got into lite weight hiking some way or another through him. If you and I do not agree with 10% of what he has to say that still makes 90% of what he has given us beneficial. Heck even if I get 10% out of some thing almost useless I have still gained from that experience.
It seems that since technology has caught up and passed Rays beliefs that we have to disregard all what he has done. I first read BB about 3 years ago and the principles (which are in most cases pretty amazing) are what got me in to lite weight hiking.
Thank's Ray!!!

Edited by awsorensen on 10/23/2005 14:17:07 MDT.

I can't reach www.ray-way.com or www.rayjardine.com anymore. Wow! How's that for slaming the door shut?

The site is back up. Looks like the Jardines are considering selling the business.

It down most of the day. Weird. Silly computers...

Re: "stealing" ideas vs. improving them. Remember that it was not Ray who originated the concept of cams for use as rock climbing protection. IIRC Abakalov (sp?) was an early pioneer, then the Lowe brothers. IIRC the Lowes fabricated the first practical, usable cam unit. Ray refined the design, licensed it to Wild Country, and became rich from it. Good for him, I say, but for him to turn around and whine about stolen ideas is profoundly hypocritical.

I too think his book was a good read and helped me make the leap to lighter-weight backpacking. But the guy is a nut.

THe problem with BB I think goes beyond 'tone. Reading it I whipped through the 1st part and thought OK this is polemic and he has some non-mainstream ideas on 'connection so lighten up and take from his experience. Then you get into the 2nd part and the trouble starts: its not just the unusual ideas about nutrition, its the just plain wrong that starts to grate eg crystals of vitamins from synthetic and natural sources are different under microscope (and many more). So when I read further Im left wondering... does this guy actually know what he is talking about? It is this aspect of the book that would make me loathe to recommend it to anyone interested in UL: this website is I think a far better look at the area for someone new to it.

Just like historical mountain men were often quite rough around the edges, Ray should not be dissed for his pioneering spirit. The mountain men opened up the way for the rest of those that followed and Ray is doing the same. He's not really the first, heck, aboriginals have known how to travel light and fast for thousands of years but he is a leader in the modern movement toward modern ultralight packing. He's the one doing the deeds and trying what others may not try and bringing what he has learned to the public.

I got into ultralight backpacking in the 70's (before it was cool), but like many, got away from it as tons of new, high-tec (and often heavy) gear tempted me into submission. The heavy packs disuaded me on more than one occasion and kept me from the backcountry often until I read Rays book and it got me back onto the proper mindset. For that I'm thankful to Ray. I'm an avid fly fisherman and just like thinking up new fly patterns keeps my mind active and young, thinking up ways to keep me lightweight on expeditions keeps my mind active and constantly progressing towards new enlightenments (pun intended).

Wether you agree with him or not, you have to respect someone who has stirred the pot and added new ingredients as well as he has.

Years ago I read his first, PCT hiking book, and visited his web site. He was a fresh voice with a unique new approach, as I recall it. He inspired me and many others to get onto the now familiar ultralight path.

I ordered his then new book, Beyond Backpacking directly. Disappointingly, it was a re labled, slightly edited version of the book I already had. No doubt further modified in later editions I don't have. I never ordered any of his other publications. I can't see a book on tarp camping. It's just not that complicated, and well, he described it in detail in the two books I own.

If he is indeed in some kind of personal decline, that is very sad, and I wish him a happy farewell into whatever retirement and leisure he can find and enjoy. His ideas were terrific, but in all fairness, they're highly dated at this point. His PCT hiking system is fundamentally unchanged, through several books, through the Golite period, and through the kits for his rather clunky, bulky current iteration of them.

He is evidently highly concerned about plagerism and "theft" of his concepts and designs, which is as it may be from his point of view. I think it is a misplaced, if not irrelevant concern since these ideas have been common knowledge for many years. Others have long since generated ideas and products which are leaps in concept, materials and evolution, far beyond the homemade quilt and tarp ideas which worked so well for the Jardines on the triple crown trails.

Jardine is certainly no philosopher, but he, as all of us, must arrive at a condensation of philosophy, some set of guiding ideas, for our own lives. He is vague (on his site at least) about his actual guiding ideas. He advises going down a personal path and avoiding undue influence by commercialization and mass culture. Not much to criticize here.

I think his most admirable accomplishments are he and his wife's triple crown through hikes, and their most amazing kayak trips in Northern climes. Quite something, deeply inspiring and far beyond all but a few of the rest of our ambitions. That is enough for me. It's an awesome record.

Best, Todd in CC.

I am also very thankful for Ray and "Beyond Backpacking". It taught me to think differently and helped start the lightweight gear revolution. As for Ray being "nuts" I think that comes with the territory. People who challenge the normal way of doing things do so because they think differently than the rest of us. Some of this "wierdness" is good..some of it could be called crazy and that really depends on who you are talking to. People at work think I am nuts for hiking solo..they just do not understand what that does for me. People on other forums sometimes "suggest" that the members on this website are part of a cult. (OMG please nobody tell my mother). It makes me very sad when the "harpies" have the last word on something. Ray is not perfect. He had a passion for something and wrote about it in a book. I thought my trail days were over due to injury but after reading that book (with a little help from this web site) I am back on the trail again. That gift is priceless..Thanks Ray.

Over time, when enough people see the same thing even those who have never been influenced by others, the one constant is the person himself. Ray is unfortunately a bright creative and visionary person. However, he very likely has marked personal problems. These problems have unfortunately interferred with his interpersonal relationships and his work relationships. May he seek professional help and be well.

Nice to see such a plethora of "experts" -- who have most likely never met, spoken, or had business dealings with Ray Jardine -- espouse such hyper-critical all-knowing "insights" into what's "wrong" with him. Sounds like most of you are in far more need of "professional help" that Mr. Jardine is -- at least he's living the outdoor life, while all you people seem to do is sit around on the computer and carp about others' success. You're should all be ashamed of yourselves. Shut up and hike!

I'm so ashamed of myself,thank goodness I have Mr.Anonymous to tell me when to hike,what to think,and when to take my medication for my various professionally helped problems.
I used to be aggresive but now I'm just passive-aggresive,maybe there is a 12 step program for gear wookies and thinkbots...maybe Mr.Anonymous could help me get dressed this morning,I'm so confused....it would appear I'm not the only one sitting in front of my computer,eeh Mr.Anonymous?Let's make Mr.Anonymous a moderator and rename the site backpackingright.com.Heh,let's get rid of that piece of paper in D.C. that guarantees that right to speculate and gossip.

Edited by pyeyo on 11/07/2005 09:25:12 MST.

For those that might give a hoot....looks like Ray has changed his mind about closing the business.
http://www.rayjardine.com/index.shtml

The plot thickens...
-Mark

.

Edited by Dondo on 10/27/2006 19:57:51 MDT.

Why it it that I think of Ray as the Terrell Owens of hiking?

I recognize the talent... BUT.