ultralight water prefilter
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twig .
(bretthartwig) - MLife

Locale: Australia
ultralight water prefilter on 05/17/2008 06:24:28 MDT Print View

I've started using a steripen and was looking for something a bit better to strain water through than a bandana. I came across a rubber washer that has a fine steel mesh funnel built into it. It is meant to be for filtering water before it enters your washing machine, I found it in the plumbing section of the hardware shop. It also fits perfectly into the cap of a platypus.
http://www.ron-vik.com/filters.aspx
rubber filter

Edited by bretthartwig on 05/17/2008 23:44:39 MDT.

John Gilbert
(JohnG10) - F

Locale: Mid-Atlantic
Prefilter on 05/17/2008 19:15:05 MDT Print View

Coffee filters (fibrous 6-9" disc) filter better than bandannas and are still very light. Just put in the mouth of the wide mouth container (or pot) you are using with the steripen and pour the water through it, then sterilize with the pen.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: ultralight water prefilter on 05/17/2008 20:13:39 MDT Print View

I would recommend against fibrous (paper) coffee filters. Use fine metallic mesh filters instead. Click here for making a screw-cap prefilter.

twig .
(bretthartwig) - MLife

Locale: Australia
ultralight water prefilter on 05/17/2008 23:40:56 MDT Print View

Yep Ben,
I'm not into replacing coffee filters constantly, the curved shape of this design helps to keep the filter clear, plus it can be removed to allow me to use my platypus as normal. I rely on it to keep out mainly bugs and wriglers and any larger bits of flotsam.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: ultralight water prefilter on 05/18/2008 00:36:48 MDT Print View

Brett -- the reason I made the bottle cap filter is because I wanted something that could be easily screwed on / taken off. Rubber banding a bandana, as a comparison, is tedious to me.

But as they say, "a picture is worth a thousand words". Now that you posted a picture, those "washer filters" will work just as well!

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
Yep! on 05/18/2008 01:40:47 MDT Print View

There are VERY fine brass screen filters for separating water from gasoline. I have an old plastic Svea funnel W/a fine brass filter. The surface tension of water won't let it pass through. So ya can only get a metal screen just so fine before it won't work well with water.

Yours look open enough to work for our purpose. Great idea!

Eric

Edited by Danepacker on 11/18/2012 15:05:52 MST.

Thom Darrah
(thomdarrah) - MLife

Locale: Southern Oregon
"ultralight water prefilter" on 05/18/2008 07:39:41 MDT Print View

Unscrew the nozzle of most kitchen faucets and you will find a small curved screen filter. These small screen filters are meant to separate out small particles that may be in the water supply: WARNING - these screens in no way treat or purify the water. Replacements can be found and purchased at nearly any hardware/home improvement store which has a plumbing section. These screens are small enough that modifications may not even be required depending on drinking system being used.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Yep! on 05/18/2008 09:34:32 MDT Print View

Eric:

The metallic mesh used in coffee filters DOES NOT hamper the flow of water at all -- even though it is much, much finer than the washers. I screw on my pre-filter cap and then just pour water into the bladder (I use an old 1L platy with the top lobbed off as my water scoop).


Edited by ben2world on 05/18/2008 09:43:06 MDT.

John Haley
(Quoddy) - F

Locale: New York/Vermont Border
Re: ultralight water prefilter on 05/18/2008 11:00:06 MDT Print View

For several years I've been using a cap the same as Ben has described. I posted this photo on a couple of sites back then. I took a standard Platy cap, drilled it out and then used a round cutout gold coffee filter piece in the natural ridge of the cap. Weight 2g.
Platy Cap with Gold Screen

John Kays
(johnk) - M

Locale: SoCal
Pre-filter on 05/18/2008 11:24:49 MDT Print View

Ben & John,

Thanks for photos. I used a coleman gas filter this past weekend lined with a coffee filter to screen out the floatees. Your method must be more convenient and more effective and am going to fix a similar device before my next trip.

BTW Ben, I used your wedding tin that you sent me and alternating with my own V-8 can stove and your stove was repeatedly, although slightly, more efficient bringing the water to a boil sooner than the other.

Edited by johnk on 05/18/2008 11:25:42 MDT.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Re: ultralight water prefilter on 05/18/2008 11:57:58 MDT Print View

John Haley - Your drilled cap looks so much better than my stabbed cap -- stabbed with my X-acto knife. :)

If I pay for postage, can you make me one? Please?


John Kays - Good to know the wedding tin can works for you. I'm still using mine, and have yet to find a better "open flame" substitute for my narrow Firelite 550 pot.

Edited by ben2world on 05/18/2008 11:59:13 MDT.

John Kays
(johnk) - M

Locale: SoCal
pre-filter on 05/18/2008 12:05:41 MDT Print View

ab

Edited by johnk on 11/23/2012 20:11:47 MST.

Margaret Snyder
(jetcash) - F

Locale: Southern Arizona
Re: Re: ultralight water prefilter on 05/18/2008 12:15:21 MDT Print View

Instead of using a coffee filter it looks like a bowl screen would be the same gauge but precut to the right size and super cheap. I'm gonna go to the smoke shop and try it out!

John Haley
(Quoddy) - F

Locale: New York/Vermont Border
Re: pre-filter on 05/18/2008 12:35:43 MDT Print View

johnk...
A washer is not needed if a Platy cap is used. The screen fits snugly in the grove at the opening and stays firmly there. When screwed on a Platy it is solidly on there. If you use another type of cap the washer may be needed.

Ben...
I don't have any extra caps right now. I had a couple at one time, but ended up using them to make the screen cap for friends. If I place an order in the near future I'll get one and keep you in mind. I still have enough screen left for at least two more. I know other caps will fit, but none that I've seen have that grove at the opening.

Edited by Quoddy on 05/18/2008 13:47:54 MDT.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: pre-filter on 05/18/2008 13:22:34 MDT Print View

Thinking more about it, I actually have an unused Platypus filter link. Taking out the middle piece, it's a perfectly pre-cut bottle cap! I'm OK now. Thanks.

Edited by ben2world on 05/18/2008 13:25:56 MDT.

John Kays
(johnk) - M

Locale: SoCal
Pre-filter on 05/18/2008 14:29:33 MDT Print View

Ben,

what about just allowing the water to gravity through the pre-filter? or is not fine enough? I have a Sweetwater pre-filter that fits onto my Gregory water bladder that I started playing around with after your post. My only question is whether I am going to get the filtering obtained with John Haley's cap and even my coffee filter-lined gas filter.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: Pre-filter on 05/18/2008 14:55:08 MDT Print View

John:

I think that's purely a matter of preference.

Some folks are perfectly happy not to use a pre-filter at all -- but simply treat the water with UV or chemicals.

Others prefer to filter out visible gunk before treatment. A metallic mesh filter does that with little to no time delay at all.

The Sweetwater prefilter will do an even better job -- except it will also take a much longer time. I assume you are pairing the Sweetwater prefilter with chemicals or UV or another filter?

twig .
(bretthartwig) - MLife

Locale: Australia
ultralight water prefilter on 05/18/2008 17:10:37 MDT Print View

I use my water filter inside a cut off platy (you can see the red filter rubber inside the spout), transferring it into another container is easier as the spout acts as a funnel and the water pressure pushes the water through the prefilter.prefilter1

Edited by bretthartwig on 05/18/2008 17:12:40 MDT.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: ultralight water prefilter on 05/18/2008 17:38:02 MDT Print View

Heh heh... I've tried that too and it works well also. At the end, I settled on installing the bottle cap filter on the receiving bladder. It's faster pouring water through, then having the water go through the "push pull" cap. Also, with the filter on the receiving end, gunk washes away, rather than accumulating inside -- as it would in the photo above -- potentially slowing down water flow even more.

But either way, we are not talking about a huge world of difference. And either way, thumbs up for the UL mesh bottle cap prefilter. :)

Mike W
(skopeo) - F

Locale: British Columbia
Prefilter... on 05/18/2008 19:17:31 MDT Print View

I wish this post had been around a month ago... it would have saved me a ton of fooling around. I never thought about the plumbing section (all those screened washers...), that would have been a big help.

I wanted a container that could scoup a litre of water and allow me to use my Steripen before pouring it into my water containers. My Ti pot worked well but filtering large debris was still a problem and I didn't like unpacking my cooking kit every time I needed water.

I ended up with a setup very much like Brett's but I used one of my old 2 Litre Source containers rather than a Platy. I wanted something with a shutoff valve and I lucked out because I found a small metal screened cartridge filter from an old kitchen faucet that fits perfectly into the opening of the Source container. I just had to add a couple of rubber washers.

Prefilter

If I'd had an old hydration pack I would have cut the bottom off and just added an MSR prefilter but I didn't want to buy a new hydration pack just to cut it up. Here's the prefilter for those that have a hydration pack to modify... only $8 at MEC (Dom's had a better image).
http://domsoutdoor.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_1-016720

Brett .
(Brett1234) - F

Locale: CA
re:"ultralight water prefilter"/paper cone coffee filters on 05/18/2008 20:08:51 MDT Print View

Another vote for coffee filters. I carry the cone-shaped type for pre-filtering before I add a micropur tablet. Works for any container, disposable or reusable, biodegradable, and maybe 1 gram each.
My pocket survival kit has a tiny ziplock with one filter and one micropur.

Edited by Brett1234 on 05/18/2008 20:10:29 MDT.

Brian Barnes
(brianjbarnes) - M

Locale: Midwest
RE:"ultralight water prefilter" on 05/18/2008 21:03:31 MDT Print View

So am I understanding what you folks are doing with a filter correctly: 1) you acquire the water from its source (stream, etc), 2) transfer the contents of the first container through a filter to a second container, 3) treat "filtered" water with UV or chemicals. Am I on track here?

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: RE:"ultralight water prefilter" on 05/18/2008 22:04:27 MDT Print View

Yes. A "water scoop" of sorts is needed esp. for narrow mouth, collapsible bladders.

Water that's pre-filtered can be more aesthetically pleasing (or at least less disgusting) -- and it also allows both UV and chemicals to do their job more effectively.

Edited by ben2world on 05/18/2008 22:08:08 MDT.

Frank Deland
(rambler) - M

Locale: On the AT in VA
filter after using a steri-pen on 05/19/2008 15:02:16 MDT Print View

Hennessy Hammocks makes a funnel that is attached to a screw on top that fits on a platypus bottle. Take a small piece of no see-um netting and attach it with tape or an elastic band to the top of the funnel. It strains out the floaties. (Hennessy uses the funnel to deflect rain water off the hammock support ropes into a bottle.) scroll down at this link
http://hennessyhammock.com/new-products.html

Edited by rambler on 05/19/2008 15:05:41 MDT.

Matthew Swierkowski
(Berserker) - F

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: ultralight water prefilter on 03/03/2011 06:52:41 MST Print View

Alright, I hate to sound totally dense here, but I looked at John (Quoddy) and Ben's pictures for how they made the cap with the mesh screen in it and I just don't get it. I bought a coffee filter (Mr. Coffee) that has gold colored metal mesh screen, cut a round piece out, drilled/trimmed a hole in a platy cap, and then tried to get the screen to press fit down into the cap. The problem is that the cap I am using has an extra smaller diamter raised piece in it that goes on the inside of the bottle opening, which is totally different than most bottle caps that just have a flat surface with a rubber gasket. So am I missing something obvious here, or are the caps that were used in this thread different?

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
Ultralight Water Prefilter on 03/03/2011 08:09:45 MST Print View

Information that might aid in the making of the pre filter discussed above.

Modified Gator Aid Cap and Nalgene Cap showing the mesh epxoxied within. You must leave a lip of the original plastic around the inside of the cap for the mesh to rest on and for the epoxy to adhere to.

Nalgene Cap

Nalgene Cap

Gator Aid Cap

Gator Aid Cap

Krups Filter

Gold Tone Coffee Filter mesh size is 3 microns (Source: Krups Consumer Service)

Edited by KENLARSON on 03/03/2011 08:16:34 MST.

Matthew Swierkowski
(Berserker) - F

Locale: Southeast
Re: Ultralight Water Prefilter on 03/03/2011 08:27:21 MST Print View

@Ken

Ahhhh...so it's glued in there. I got the impression that it was somehow just press fit in there. Ok, I actually left a lip on the cap I was working with so gluing in a piece of screen would be no big deal. Now the million dollar question...what glue to use? You mention epoxy, does that work and what epoxy did you use?

I was working on a much more complicated pre-filter than the one in this thread when I came on this thread, and per my research there are not many adhesives that stick to polyethylene or polypropylene (the materials most of these bottles and caps are made of). The only thing I found that works is the Loctite Plastic Bonding System (consists of an activator and super glue). I suppose another potential option would be to melt the screen into the plastic with a soldering iron. Anyone tried that?

Brendan Swihart
(brendans) - MLife

Locale: Fruita CO
metal screens for turbid water? on 03/03/2011 08:43:28 MST Print View

are the metal screens you guys are using fine enough to prefilter silty/turbid water for use with a steripen? For convenience sake or if you're just trying to get out floaties the fine mesh seems great but if you're trying dealing with more murky water it seems like paper filters would be better??? I have an opti on the way and some places I frequent the water can have lots of clay so I'm wondering what a good setup will be.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: metal screens for turbid water? on 03/03/2011 08:53:26 MST Print View

Those filters are for sticks and leaves and things

No filter is good for silt

Even pump or gravity filters aren't that great for silt - they'll plug up for one thing

I fill my 4 liter Platypus, and then the next morning most of the silt is on the bottom, just don't agitate the bottle and pour off the top.

To treat turbid water, the instructions say to double treat

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Cheese cloth on 03/03/2011 09:00:20 MST Print View

A 4" x4" piece of cheese cloth, folded twice, to make four layers. Works much better
(faster) than a bandanna and seems to catch a certain amount of silt too.

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
Insight to pre filtering on 03/03/2011 11:35:53 MST Print View

Matt……“You mention epoxy, does that work and what epoxy did you use?”

>>>>>GORILLA. The Glue Guide by Gorilla does state, “Bonds most plastics, but not polyethylene or polypropylene as you had mentioned.” I have had no issues to date with the caps and as long as the adhesive holds the screen in place without fall out (my purpose) the cap pressure will do the rest.

Brenda…..“are the metal screens you guys are using fine enough to prefilter slit/turbid water for use with a steripen."

>>>>>I use my prefilters with my SteriPen when needed and that has not been that often as I am VERY SELECTIVE when it comes to the amount of dissolved and suspended solids in the water source I take my water from due to my suppressed immune system. When I use my Larson Designed Gravity System (Sea To Summit 8 liter Ultra-Sil Dry Sack, 5 micron (nominal) pre filter sewn into the bag, Sawyer .02 purifier) with my grandchildren I have also no issues and produce water in large amounts (Average 290 sec/liter) quickly when I suspend 1.5 gal at a time.
Prior to using a pre filter with the Larson Designed Gravity System, I had one big issue in it early testing with Lake Michigan Water in early Spring around South Manitou Island using water that had large amounts of suspended Cladophora algae that you could observe (a native algae species that washes up on the beaches when wind-driven waves rip it off the bottom of the lake and becoming a big issue for the ecology of the lake.) in the water. With my updating of the system I have had great success with many different water sources and “suspended solids” contained within.

Jerry…… “Even pump or gravity filters aren't that great for silt - they'll plug up for one thing”

>>>>> I had a silt issue at Lake Desor (North) on Isle Royale back when I was using a Katadyn Pocket filter (HEAVY, 0.2 micron ceramic filter (cleanable) without pre filtering the water on year, but I quickly corrected this by scrubbing the ceramic filter. (The suspended solids were so fine you could not discern with the naked eye. This island also had Cyanobacteria (Blue green algae) issues in the late summer and closes several inland lakes to the potential health risk to people who are exposed to certain species that contain a toxin. In this case if you see “blooms” or “scum’s on the water you are drawing from…..be conservative and do not use the water. People with other filtering device that used these waters were not so lucky, as thier filters clogged and could not be cleaned.)

Katharina…. “A 4" x4" piece of cheese cloth, folded twice, to make four layers. Works much better
(faster) than a bandanna and seems to catch a certain amount of silt too.”

>>>>This information may interest you:

Back in the lab I tested “grubby bayou” (Late Summer water in front of my house that is a good sampling source for these test.) water through various pre filter materials to determine what material makes the best pre filter. This is what I found out:
1. paper coffee filter - water very clear (as tap), filter rate very slow
2. cloth coffee filter - water tinge of yellow, filter rate slow
3. pelon material - water slight tinge of yellow, filter rate very fast
4. handkerchief - water tinge of yellow, filter rate slow
5. heavily used MSR towel (PackTowl® Ultralite) - water clear, filter rate fast
6. lightly used MSR towel (PackTowl® Ultralite) - water clear, filter rate medium
7. MSR towel (Nano™ Towel) - water clear, filter rate medium fast

CONCLUSION: The use of either the MSR towel (PackTowl® Ultralite or MSR towel (Nano™ Towel) would be the best pre filter material prior to UV, filtering, or purifying water with suspended solids (e.g. algae, bugs and floating debris.) Each of MSR pre filter materials can be washed in the field and used again and had has sufficient surface area to handle most filtering/purifying pre filtering needs. The use of a strong rubber band would aid in affixing the pre filtering material in place around a pot or liter btl/canteen so to enlarge the filter area.

NOTE: The QUALITATIVE nature of the water clarity is based on sight comparison to tap water or water that has been place through a paper coffee filter.

Edited by KENLARSON on 03/03/2011 13:35:44 MST.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Best pre-filter is a 1 oz, 1 micron oil filter from DudaDiesel on 03/03/2011 12:31:13 MST Print View

http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=PESP3S

About $3

I've used this for 2-3 years now. Fantastic. Take a wire clipper and clip cut the steel ring, and use a needle nose to remove it, and the remaining filter folds flat and is 1 oz. It is a one micron filter too!1 Micron Oil Filter

Link .
(annapurna) - MLife
Re: Best pre-filter is a 1 oz, 1 micron oil filter from DudaDiesel on 03/03/2011 12:38:04 MST Print View

+1 Roleigh, I purchased from Dudadiesel a couple of years ago after reading your post and have been very happy with it.

Brendan Swihart
(brendans) - MLife

Locale: Fruita CO
prefilter on 03/03/2011 12:48:58 MST Print View

good info Ken and Roleigh. How is the flow rate through those diesel filters? Looking around a bit it looks like a paper coffee filter is between 15 and 30 microns for reference so 1 micron would be pretty awesome if it allowed water through relatively fast.

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
Re: Best pre-filter is a 1 oz, 1 micron oil filter from DudaDiesel on 03/03/2011 12:49:35 MST Print View

I have incorportated this filter material in my gravity system describe above. (You can go as low as 1 micron (nominal).

Global Filter, LLC

Standard Mesh Liquid Filter Bags. I believe the specifications of a bag and material I'm looking at are as follows:

Type Fiber - NMO
Micron Rating - 5
Bag Finish - Plain
Bag Size - 1
Bag Style - PESS

http://www.globalfiltercorp.com/StandardMeshLiquidBags.html

Terry Younggreen
Vice President of Operations

7201 Mt. Vernon Rd SE
Cedar Rapids, IA 52403

toll free: 1-877-603-1003
ph: 319-743-0110
fx: 319-743-0220

Email: terry@globalfiltercorp.com

Edited by KENLARSON on 03/03/2011 13:33:34 MST.

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: Insight to pre filtering on 03/03/2011 12:53:48 MST Print View

Hi Ken,

Wonderful roundup of filteration fabrics. I confess I had to look up "pelon" and the closest I can find is "pellon" facing as used in sewing. Is that the stuff?

So you suppose the pack towel fabric works so well because it's highly hydrophilic?

Thanks again,

Rick

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
prefilter on 03/03/2011 12:59:32 MST Print View

Brendan.........The 5 micron bag I described used with my gravity filter works as good as any pre filter I have tested. NO ISSUES.

"Looking around a bit it looks like a paper coffee filter is between 15 and 30 microns for reference so 1 micron would be pretty awesome if it allowed water through relatively fast."

>>>>>That is a correct statement for the 5 micron and I bet it is likewise for the 1 micron.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: Best pre-filter is a 1 oz, 1 micron oil filter from DudaDiesel on 03/03/2011 13:00:33 MST Print View

Thanks Anna. Glad this thread came up. I thought prior to today that using a 1 micron pre-filter along with Chlorine Dioxide tablets (but only waiting 20" after use of tabs), that filtering mountain water would be just fine to use as the items you needed to wait 2-4 hours for with the tablets had sizes greater than 1 micron. But then I saw this today: http://www.usbr.gov/pmts/water/media/pdfs/Crypto.pdf

"B. Source in Nature: Crypto and giardia are naturally occurring in the intestines of most mammals, including humans. The highly contagious and infectious form, as found in water, is a hard-shelled cyst in the case of giardia, about 5-8 microns in diameter; and an oocyst for crypto, about 3-5 microns (which is pliable and capable of folding to 1 micron)."

I did not know giardia could be as small as 1 micron.

I've used the pre-filter in 3 situations:

a. pre-filter for steripen to rid water of any crud (by the way, steripen's own technical literature says it does not purify a wolf parasite eggs which are too big for the steripen to handle, but the pre-filter will take care of that).

b. pre-filter for chlorine dioxide tablets (on my JMT hikes, I use the Steripen during the day as the water tastes better that way, but at night, I'm so tired, and water is mostly for cooking, and I use the chlorine dioxide tablets, and wait only about 30" afterwards). In both situations, I use the 1 micron pre-filter.

c. as a pre-filter for a .1 micron sawyer gravity water filter on the superior hiking trail which afterwards I then use chlorine dioxide tablets (to handle viruses).
The pre-filter helps enable me to go more days before the sawyer gravity filter gets too plugged up and needs backflushing.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: prefilter on 03/03/2011 13:02:29 MST Print View

Brendan, the flow rate is so fast, it's like a filter is not involved. It's only 1 micron, not something really, really small like .1 micron. I think it is also fast because it is such a large filter and can handle a lot of volume.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: Re: Best pre-filter is a 1 oz, 1 micron oil filter from DudaDiesel on 03/03/2011 13:08:54 MST Print View

Ken, what is the part number of your 1 micron (absolute) filter equivalent to the one I showed from Dudadiesel. What do you mean by "absolute". You'll note the wording by DudaDiesel:

"This fabric does not produce an absolute filtration but rather a range based on generally accepted industry tests. Mandy factors influence the actual filtration including the shape, size, consistancy and loading of the contaminates. Also, the feed pressure and rate of flow affects the filtration results. "

http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=PESP3S

Last, what is the pricing information and minimum qty order you'll take?

The Dudadiesel bag has these characteristics:
Polyester Filter Bag
• Size#3, with hanging strap
• 8" Length, 4" Diameter
• Singed for prevention of fiber breaking
1 micron (with above caveats)

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
prefilter on 03/03/2011 13:12:48 MST Print View

Rick….“I confess I had to look up "pelon" and the closest I can find is "pellon" facing as used in sewing. Is that the stuff?”

>>>>>YEP, my wife and I sews a lot and I thought I would give it a try.

“So you suppose the pack towel fabric works so well because it's highly hydrophilic?”

>>>>>>That’s my guess and why I tried them.


Roleigh….“pre-filter for steripen to rid water of any crud (by the way, steripen's own technical literature says it does not purify a wolf parasite eggs which are too big for the steripen to handle, but the pre-filter will take care of that).”

>>>>>+1 The bottom line is BOILING OR FILTERING your water will remove the 25 micron hydatid organism threat of the tapeworm.

The use of chemical or UV treatment to remove the bacteria (0.3 - 1 micron), protozoa (3 - 20 micron) and virus (0.01 micron) will NOT remove or eliminate the hydatid tapeworms threat. If you are using chemical or UV treatment for your water, PRE FILTER with a filter that will remove 25 micron size particles…(eg. Diesel fuel filtering material 1- 10 micron, http://www.dudadiesel.com/search.php?query=filter+bags, KRUPS - Gold Tone Coffee Filter 3 micron, handkerchief, MSR towels, paper coffee filters 5-15 micron)to remove the hydatid organism.

Edited by KENLARSON on 03/04/2011 07:21:54 MST.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: prefilter on 03/03/2011 13:29:55 MST Print View

Ken, when you state the micron range for Dudadiesel, that is for the range of all of their filters. They sell pre-filters that average 1 micron, others that are 5 micron, and others with less filtering ability. The pre-filter I showed is labeled a 1 micron filter, but with the caveats I mentioned, which is why I'm interested in knowing about your pre-filters, if you have one that is absolute 1 micron pre-filter, I want to know how to order it.

As I mentioned, I use the pre-filter always in conjunction with something else (either steripen, chlorine dioxide tablets, or combo sawyer .1 micron filter and chlorine dioxide tablets)).

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
pre filter on 03/03/2011 14:07:14 MST Print View

Roleigh….“ what is the part number of your 1 micron (absolute) filter equivalent to the one I showed from Dudadiesel.”

>>>>>NO, Global Filter, Part # is just the description below for their Standard Mesh Liquid Bag .
Type Fiber – NMO (Nylon Monofilament)
Micron Rating – 1 (micro rating ranges from 1 – 1500)
Bag Finish - Plain
Bag Size - 1
Bag Style - PESS

The bag you have from Dudadiesel has its emphasis in “supplies for SVO, biodiesel, solar water heater technology and will soon also push for solar electrical cells (PV cells), wind power, geothermal systems and energy efficient devices such as LED lights and systems which recycle heat.”

Global Filters has its emphasis in “High Purity Pleated Filter Cartridges for liquid filtration in a variety of Industries including: Food & Beverage, Pharmaceutical, Enzyme, Ethanol, Electronics, Water Service, Reverse Osmosis Pre-filters, Chemical, Petro-Chemicals, Refining, Cosmetics, Ink/Paint.


“What do you mean by "absolute"?”
>>>>> My mistake! Thanks for catching that. It should read:
A NOMINAL rating is attached to filters that can be shown under controlled conditions to remove an acceptable statistical amount of particles of a certain size, even though the actual pores or openings of the filter may be much larger that the particles being removed. The typical way that a nominal filter rating is reported would be in the form of a statement such as: “Removes >99.9% of particles 3μm (micron) or larger.” This means that under field conditions, a user can be confident that the filter will remove greater than 99.9% of pathogenic organisms larger than 3 μm. This information is obtained by challenging filters with test waters containing suspensions of 3μm spheres. A similar cryptosporidium or giardia claim would require a challenge using live cryptosporidium or giardia organisms. Nominal ratings are usually applied to depth filters.

An ABSOLUTE rating can only be applied to a filter that the end user can actually determine the size of the largest pore. Such a filter can be integrity tested using a non-destructive test method and the data can be used to determine the actual size of the largest pore. Absolute ratings can only be applied to membrane filters (see definition below) due to the requirement of a definable pore. If a filter manufacturer applies an absolute rating to a filter, they should be able to provide the user with a non-destructive test protocol that will allow the user to verify the absolute rating.

“Ken, when you state the micron range for Dudadiesel, that is for the range of all of their filters. They sell pre-filters that average 1 micron, others that are 5 micron, and others with less filtering ability.”

>>>>> “micron range for Dudadiesel” above should read micron range for Global Filters do range from 1 – 1500 microns in their Standard Mesh Liquid Bag Models....they have other models not applicable to this discussion. http://www.globalfiltercorp.com/StandardMeshLiquidBags.html

“As I mentioned, I use the pre-filter always in conjunction with something else (either steripen, chlorine dioxide tablets, or combo sawyer .1 micron filter and chlorine dioxide tablets)).”
>>>>>Likewise, I prefilter and us UV or a .02 micron Sawyer PURIFIER.

Edited by KENLARSON on 03/04/2011 07:15:39 MST.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: pre filter on 03/03/2011 14:23:14 MST Print View

Ken, I'm confused, are you saying a Dudadiesel filter that has a nominal 1 micron rating is inferior to your filter with a 1-1000 micron rating, just because your filter is specifically targeted to drinkable liquids as opposed to biodiesal fuel use?

Don't you have a filter almost identical to the one I showed from Dudadiesel, your pictures show filters that look almost identical?

Laurence Beck
(beckla) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
How do you use the Dudadiesel Filter? on 03/03/2011 14:34:48 MST Print View

Roleigh, How do you use this Dudadiesal filter? I normally backpack in the Sierras and I carry XiniX Klear Water liguid chlorine dioxide treatment. A 1 ml drop treats one quart in 15 mins for Giardia. I would be interested in a pre-filter only for the ascetic value of removing floaties and silt. Do you hang this filter and pour through it or, do you rubber band it across the mouth of your clean water receptacle?

One thing about XiniX Klear Water is that you can treat a larger quantity of water if you let it sit overnight. This is one way that I use it to conserve on Klear Water.

Larry

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
pre filtrer on 03/03/2011 14:36:43 MST Print View

Roleigh...."Ken, I'm confused, are you saying a Dudadiesel filter that has a nominal 1 micron rating is inferior to your filter with a 1-1000 micron rating, just because your filter is specifically targeted to drinkable liquids as opposed to biodiesal fuel use?"

>>>>>I am not saying that at all. Micron rating are micron rating weather used for diesel or water. Global Filters have a wide range of filtering application compare to Dudadiesel as I see it.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: How do you use the Dudadiesel Filter? on 03/03/2011 14:45:14 MST Print View

Larry,

I bring along two 1.8 oz twist-n-lock ziplock quart containers, one is labeled "dirty" and the other "clean". I scoop up dirty water with the dirty container, and pour the dirty water into the dudadiesel filter into the clean container. The clean container is then steripen'd or else poured into a 2 qt platypus container (with a 1" cap neck). I repeat this twice for the platypus container, then I put in 2 chlorine dioxide tablets in that platypus, put the 1" lid back on the platypus, wait 1/2 hour, and the water is useable for camp in the evening.

I have done beta testing for Steripen and got confirmation from Steripen's support that it will work just fine with the twist-n-lock ziplock quarter container with the caveat that due to UV radiation, the containers are not long term containers. I replace them every 2 years or sooner. I only bring one lid with me, for the clean container, which is kept inside the dirty container when hiking/packing.

I do not use a Nalgene bottle, weighs about the same as 4 of the ziplock containers.

Roleigh

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: pre filtrer on 03/03/2011 14:46:46 MST Print View

Ken, can't you just post a link or part number of the closest competing filter to the DudaDiesel filter I linked to, provide a photo of it, and ordering information, along with technical specs? Thanks!

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: Re: How do you use the Dudadiesel Filter? on 03/03/2011 15:09:05 MST Print View

Larry, I forgot to answer your other question. I hang the filter on the top of my pack to dry out between water stops. I squeeze it dry first. If I ever put the prefilter in my pack, I put it in a ziplock freezer quart bag. Overnight at camp, I hang it from a branch to air out.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: Re: pre filtrer on 03/03/2011 15:24:47 MST Print View

Ken, I'm sorry, I thought you worked for Global Filter. Never mind my request.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
"DISPOSABILITY" on 03/03/2011 15:33:34 MST Print View

I use the smallest cone shaped coffee filter available (#1 I think) in a small funnel for prefiltering. Then I dispose it in my trash bag. I don't want to risk re-using it after bacteria have a chance to grow on both sides of it when stored wet.

Never had a problem with this filtration method.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: "DISPOSABILITY" on 03/03/2011 15:37:55 MST Print View

I dispose of my 1 micron pre-filter at the end of each hike I've used it on. I do wash it with water (kind of a back-flush) while on the trail, and have it dry out daily if it is not raining. When you buy them in bulk (I buy 6-12 at a time), it's cheap but not as cheap as coffee filters, but then 1 micron has it's advantages.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Best pre-filter is a 1 oz, 1 micron oil filter from DudaDiesel on 03/03/2011 18:08:30 MST Print View

"About $3"

Plus $9.95 shipping. :(

Brendan Swihart
(brendans) - MLife

Locale: Fruita CO
filter bags on 03/03/2011 18:54:34 MST Print View

looks like there are some on ebay for $3-4 and only a couple bucks shipping. search for 1 micron filter bag.

Mike W
(skopeo) - F

Locale: British Columbia
ultralight water prefilter on 03/03/2011 19:21:05 MST Print View

I've been using the Dudadiesel filters since Roleigh original post and I find them easy to use. I cut the bottom off the filter to size them down a little and toss the rest away. I can usually get several trips out of a filter (the water is pretty clear in my area).

The cut-off filter only weighs .6 oz wet and I leave it in the mesh pocket of my pack between uses. I Steripen my water in my water scoop (cut-off bottom of a Platy) and then pour the water through the filter cloth into my wide mouth Nalgene Cantene. Here's a picture I posted somewhere else on this forum that shows the cut-off filter cloth.

1 micron cloth filter

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: Re: "DISPOSABILITY" on 03/03/2011 20:14:06 MST Print View

Pricing and shipping. Yes qty 1 from DudaDiesel is not cheapest way to go, but qty 5+ gets them for $2.50 apiece, so you end up saving money from DudaDiesel vs. buying them from Ebay at a certain level of qty. It's a math issue to work out for your needs. I used to use Ebay to buy them until I figured out the best way to get them.

Ps, Mike, thanks for the credit line. I'm glad I turned a lot of backpackers onto this fine pre-filter.

Edited by marti124 on 03/03/2011 20:15:03 MST.

Matthew Swierkowski
(Berserker) - F

Locale: Southeast
My Attempt on 03/04/2011 15:38:44 MST Print View

Well, here's my attempt at this thing:
Platy cap pre-filter inside shot

platy cap pre-filter outside shot

As long as the screen is glued in there good I should be good to go. Just for everyone's info I used the Loctite Plastics Bonding System (an activator and super glue).


I'm kinda embarrassed to reveal my pre-filter concept before I found this post, but it's pretty darn funny so check it out:
Keurig K-cup pre-filter

This thing is a Keurig K-cup reusable coffee filter with a bottle top glued to it. The platy cap was going to be glued to the bottle cap, and that would allow for it to be threaded onto a platy container. This also would allow for easy cleaning as I could unthread the bottle cap to clean it out. I didn't totally finish it as I used the platy cap to make the other pre-filter, but intial weight measurements put this thing at about 0.7 oz...yikes. So anyway, I hope you had a good laugh at my expense, and I really appreciate this thread...only wish I'd a found it a hair sooner...of course if that had happened we wouldn't be blessed with the awesome apparatus above...ha ha ha.

Nico .
(NickB) - MLife

Locale: Los Padres National Forest
pre-filter disappointment on 03/29/2011 16:56:17 MDT Print View

Hi Mike and Roleigh,

I saw the 1 micron bio-diesel filter fabric bags that you guys are using as a pre-filter in your water treatment systems. I thought that was a great idea, so I ordered a few to try out.

I cut one down a bit, basically took off the top half, leaving the bottom section intact (it looks like a small upside down beanie) and took it on a day hike this last weekend. I attempted to treat some muddy snow runoff at one point in the hike, so I ran it through the 1-micron pre-filter and it still came out really turbid. Not much clearer than the water in the creek actually. I dumped it and ended up just collecting clean snow, letting it melt and then zapping the melted snow water with the steripen instead.

So, I'm curious as to how well these pre-filters have worked for you guys at removing silt from muddy water. I'm wondering if the problem is that water is passing through the seam of the filter bag where it was sewn together and so it's not really getting filtered through the 1-micron fabric? Maybe I need to cut out a section in a different way to avoid the seam and have a solid piece of the filter fabric instead. Any thoughts?

Thanks,

Nick

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: pre-filter disappointment on 03/29/2011 17:10:24 MDT Print View

Couple of questions and comments, Nick. I only cut out the metal ring of the filter. Left the rest there. Did any water pour over the top of your cut-down filter?

Anyway, with murky water, the purpose of the prefilter for me is to get the dirty water that is going to be filtered by my .1 micron Sawyer filter - http://www.sawyer.com/SP122.htm to be prefiltered so that the Sawyer filter does not get immensely clogged up fast. The water that comes out of the Sawyer filter is then given a tablet of Chlorine Dioxide to deal with viruses, 20 minutes later, I can drink the water. With Beaver Bond, Silty water from Superior Hiking Trail, the water is still colored rusty color, but it tastes just fine.

Another SHT hiker, a married couple, they prefiltered their water with the same DuoDiesel filter (not my DuoDiesel filter, they had their own), then they used a Steripen to purify that water, and they drank that and had no complaints. I felt the water I drank was cleaner having been filtered down to .1 micron.

What were you doing with the water afterwards. After all, the word "pre-" in "pre-filter" presumes something is going to be filtering the water ultimately.

Nico .
(NickB) - MLife

Locale: Los Padres National Forest
pre-filter on 03/29/2011 17:30:38 MDT Print View

Thanks Roleigh,

I was careful to regulate the "flow" of water through the pre-filter so that water didn't make it into the container without passing through the pre-filter first (I poured water into my 1L Nalgene cantene from a water scoop with the pre-filter set in the cantene opening).

In this case, I was using the pre-filter with a steripen. The water probably would have been fine to drink after zapping with the UV light... I guess I was just expecting the 1-micron pore size to be fine enough to remove most of the sediment from the water. Instead the turbid water passed through the pre-filter and still came out looking turbid.

sue thomas
(pakice) - F
Re: Best pre-filter is a 1 oz, 1 micron oil filter from DudaDiesel on 04/05/2011 08:21:34 MDT Print View

Roleigh, how much water could be filtered through the above filter bag before it needed changing? of course it depends on water quality, but any approximate numbers? thanks!

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
#1 coffee paper filter on 04/05/2011 09:44:50 MDT Print View

I have used a #1 coffee paper filter & soft plastic funnel for years.

roberto nahue
(carspidey) - F

Locale: san fernando valley
filters on 04/05/2011 10:15:15 MDT Print View

going through this thread had me wonder (nobody posted anything about this) about the aquamira pro filter which only has a 3 micron granularity... it looks like for some of us (i am going to use the tablet method coupled with the frontier pro filter) this would be enough... but some here are going as low as .01 microns and that's after using a 1 micron pre filter and tablets... may i ask why?

can i replace my 3 micron frontier pro with the 1 micron diesel pre filter after using tablets? i mean, this route might be cheaper and better...

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: filters on 04/05/2011 10:48:12 MDT Print View

"can i replace my 3 micron frontier pro with the 1 micron diesel pre filter after using tablets?"

Haven't tried it myself, but if the diesel pre filter truly blocks all baddies bigger than 1 micron, then I don't see why it couldn't replace the 3-micron Frontier Pro.

Not a show stopper or anything, but in lieu of waiting 30 minutes and then drinking through the FP, it seems like you will have to carry extra bladder(s) -- to treat dirty water and then to transfer treated water into clean bladder(s). Another thing, which may or may not be an issue for you, is the lack of a carbon / charcoal element to improve water taste.

roberto nahue
(carspidey) - F

Locale: san fernando valley
Re: Re: filters on 04/05/2011 11:17:20 MDT Print View

Benjamin,

you are right! the fp would improve taste as well... forgot about that...

and i was thinking of treating my water first and then transfer it to clean containers (gravity filter setup with the fp filter)...

roberto nahue
(carspidey) - F

Locale: san fernando valley
Re: Re: Re: filters on 04/05/2011 11:22:21 MDT Print View

Benjamin,

another thing i could do would be to cut just a piece of the diesel 1 micron filter and attach it to the end of my tube that goes to the clean water, or just replace the prefilter on the fp with a piece of the 1 micron filter...

what do you think? or what would you do?

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: filters on 04/05/2011 13:50:13 MDT Print View

"Haven't tried it myself, but if the diesel pre filter truly blocks all baddies bigger than 1 micron, then I don't see why it couldn't replace the 3-micron Frontier Pro."

Benjamin, would it make any sense to try to insert a piece of the diesel pre filter into the front end of the Frontier Pro? Or, for that matter, to replace the entire Frontier Pro filter material inside the plastic case with this thing.

--B.G.--

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: filters on 04/05/2011 13:57:20 MDT Print View

I don't think it's necessary, because I treat with chemicals first -- to kill / neutralize teeny tiny viruses, bacteria small and large, plus the very smallest of protozoa species. The 3.0 micron FP can then block the bigger (and harder to kill) protozoa species, block sediments, and improve water taste.

roberto nahue
(carspidey) - F

Locale: san fernando valley
fp filter on 04/05/2011 15:01:13 MDT Print View

from most of your posts (benjamin) and other's i think i'll just use the fp and tablets and that should work... a lot of people here don't even filter their water or even treat it with chemicals...

very interesting thread though...

Brian Johnson
(Sirclimbsalot) - F

Locale: Midwest
Other sources/types of filter bags? on 08/23/2011 10:19:35 MDT Print View

http://www.filterbag.com/PENG1P3P-p568.html

Looking for more feedback on these filter bags. I found the ones above with plastic instead of the metal rings.

Does anyone have more/better sources? Would I be better of buying ones with the metal ring and cutting them out, or is anyone using filter bags with the plastic rings?

Any feedback and user experience appreciated!

Edited by Sirclimbsalot on 08/23/2011 10:20:15 MDT.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Absolute 1 micron rated filter < $11 on 04/19/2012 09:24:23 MDT Print View

Wow, Brian, what a great resource. I saw your link page but this other filter, slightly more expensive is superior as it is an absolute rated 1 micron filter:

http://www.filterbag.com/NMO1P3P-p184.html

"1 Micron"

"Size 3 (4x7)"

Only down side is that if the price shown is per one filter, one has to buy 25 filters at $10.21. (I confirmed such is the case)

"Precisely woven to ensure accurate filtration (absolute rated bags), this monofilament mesh withstands temperatures up to 325 F."

NMO1P3P Absolute 1 Micron Filter



I've sent an email to them asking them to read this thread and comment on these two filters they sell. I'll update the board with their response.

Edited by marti124 on 04/19/2012 09:35:55 MDT.

Lance Marshall
(Lancem) - F - MLife

Locale: Oregon
Re: Absolute 1 micron rated filter < $11 on 04/19/2012 12:48:05 MDT Print View

Please don't rely on these as your sole means of water filtration. The 'absolute micron' rating is at only 99% capture.

From Filterbag's website:
"Filter bags made out of monofilament mesh or micro-fiber are given absolute ratings. A filter bag with an absolute rating will capture 99% of its rated particles in a single pass."

The EPA standard is 99.9999% for bacteria and 99.9% for cysts.

EPA protocol Table A

The EPA testing protocol dopes test water with 100,000,000 bacteria per liter (10^7/100mL):
Fewer than 100 bacteria are allowed to pass through a filter meeting the EPA standards. The Filterbag 'filter' could potentially let 1,000,000 bacterial through!

If you chose your water source carefully, you're not likely to encounter those concentrations of bacteria (something like one gallon of raw sewage in 10,000 gallons of water), but I don't thinks it's worth the risk.

However, the Filterbag filter would make a great pre-filter.

Hope this helps.

Edited by Lancem on 04/19/2012 12:57:23 MDT.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: Absolute 1 micron rated filter on 04/19/2012 13:14:43 MDT Print View

Great informative post. Thanks! As I mentioned in my earlier posts, I use the pre-filter before using either the Steripen or Chlorine Dioxide Tablets. If using the Chlorine Dioxide tablets, it is to take care of Giardia and Crypto only as they're >= 1 micron and to kill those suckers off with the tablets requires waiting about 2-4 hours, otherwise just to handle bacteria and viruses (what you were talking about was bacteria), the tablets only require 20 minutes. The Steripen doesn't need the pre-filter except to take care of visual sediment or wolf parasite eggs (which are larger/harder than Crypto/Giardia).

I heard from Filterbag.com and he made many good points -- the thread of my correspondence is here:

https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B7L_TrVYTWZRRlZVZjJZUk8wQU0
Link.

He provides links which are in that PDF linked to covering our correspondence.

Joe Guilmette
(loltron)
buying filters on 11/17/2012 23:01:44 MST Print View

did anyone ever end up finding a good source of absolute 1 micron filter bags? the minimum order of 25 is pretty steep, did anyone ever end up placing one?

if we can drum up enough support i'd be willing to place the order...

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Dudadiesel now has .5 micron filters on 11/17/2012 23:49:30 MST Print View

http://www.dudadiesel.com/choose_item.php?id=PTFEP3S

Polyester PTFE Coated Filter Bag, 0.5 Micron
• Size#3, with hanging strap
• 8" Length, 4" Diameter
• PTFE Coated to 0.5 Micron Rating

$Ea. Qty
$ 5.25 1+
$ 4.60 2+
$ 3.75 5+
$ 3.60 10+
$ 3.40 25+

If you use a vice-grip, you can clip off and remove the metal ring and the resulting filter is <= 1 oz. I used this on my JMT hike as my pre-filter. One lasted the whole hike.

Brian Johns
(bcutlerj) - M

Locale: NorCal
Cottage Industry Filters/Netting on 11/19/2012 13:38:41 MST Print View

was it Yama Mountain that offered no-see-um mesh scraps cut into filter sized bags a little smaller than a coffee filter? IIRC, you could get ten for as little as $3.50. I think they were offered for straining your dinner grey water so you could trash the food bits and poor the water out on the ground. I think they'd work well as a prefilter too, and probably last many uses. I couldn't find the link, but if anyone else can I'd like to bookmark it.

Sean Rhoades
(kingpin)

Locale: WV
Re: Cottage Industry Filters/Netting on 11/22/2012 22:48:33 MST Print View

Yama has re-worked their site and I don't think he put the grey water filters on the new site. May want to email him about it. He's a very nice guy, would probably make you some if you asked.