titanium heat exchanger help
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carlos fernandez rivas
(pitagorin) - MLife

Locale: Galicia -Spain
titanium heat exchanger help on 05/13/2008 04:45:35 MDT Print View

Hi

Im interested in one heat exchanger for my pots similar to the msr heat exchanger but ligther.

http://zenstoves.net/PotAccessories/PotHeatX.jpg


In the steve house video about the gear that he used in his rupal face climbing

he shows one interesting design (simple and light) made of titanium

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIkmYiwbZWg

Im interested in something like that


someone knows a source for titanium sheet? (with web page and international shipping)

What thick would be aprropiate for this project?
thank you in advance

carlos
spain

Edited by pitagorin on 05/13/2008 04:47:50 MDT.

Colin Krusor
(ckrusor) - M

Locale: Northwest US
heat exchanger on 05/13/2008 12:26:30 MDT Print View

I've done some searching for titanium sheet myself and the thinnest I've been able to find is 0.004 in. from a seller on Ebay. I used it on my wood-burning camp stove. It's the 15-3-3-3 alloy. I've also seen 6Al-4V alloy titanium in 0.005 inch thick sheets on Ebay.

I don't use a traditional heat exchanger anymore because it seems that they are meant to serve two mutually exclusive purposes. They conduct heat from stove exhaust gases to the pot sides, and they trap those gases against the pot to reduce heat loss to the atmosphere.

For conducting heat to the pot from the hot stove exhaust, it seems that something with a high thermal conductivity, like aluminum, might be a good choice. But for making a thermal barrier between the layer of stove exhaust rising up the sides of the pot and the outside air you'd want something with low thermal conductivity. You'd also want the outside surface of your heat exchanger to be shiny, to reduce radiant heat loss.

Titanium has very low thermal conductivity and high emissivity, which means it does a poor job of conducting heat to the pot and gives away a lot of radiant heat to the surroundings. Aluminum is not only less dense (it doesn't need to be strong), but it has low emissivity (it doesn't give much heat away by radiation). Aluminum also has high conductivity, which is good for moving heat from the stove exhaust to the pot, but also good for moving that heat to the outside air.

So I split it up on my stove. I use shiny aluminum fins (folded foil) to transmit heat to the pot, and a metallized Kapton shroud with kiln-paper (ceramic paper) lining to reduce heat losses to the air. The whole arrangement weighs 55 grams, or 1/3 the weight of the MSR heat exchanger.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: heat exchanger on 05/13/2008 15:48:17 MDT Print View

> use shiny aluminum fins (folded foil) to transmit heat to the pot, and a metallized Kapton shroud with kiln-paper (ceramic paper) lining to reduce heat losses to the air. The whole arrangement weighs 55 grams, or 1/3 the weight of the MSR heat exchanger.

Pictures?

Cheers

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
titanium heat exchanger help on 05/13/2008 18:59:51 MDT Print View

Carlos
Have you considered the Heat It version from http://www.ortik.net/ ?
At 138g it's not UL but it is a lot more versatile by allowing baking (or as a "cozy") and hanging the stove as well as a wind shield/heat retainer.
Franco
( looking at your avatar made me think of that one...)

nanook ofthenorth
(nanookofthenorth) - MLife
Ortik on 05/13/2008 19:43:12 MDT Print View

I've tried to buy one. No luck. If anyone can get a respose out of Ortik, let me know, I'd love to get one.

Colin Krusor
(ckrusor) - M

Locale: Northwest US
Pics on 05/14/2008 09:23:53 MDT Print View

Roger,

I'll take some photos and post them, but it might not happen for a week or two.

carlos fernandez rivas
(pitagorin) - MLife

Locale: Galicia -Spain
altitude cooking system and heat echanger ideas needed on 05/16/2008 00:57:43 MDT Print View

Franco, the ortik looks a good idea, last year I tried to find info about the company because is a Portuguese company and I live next to the Portuguese border and I frequently work there but I was unable to find a contact.

Anyway my first idea is to find a UL cooking system suitable for high altitude (Im planning one trip to Nepal with some members of my mountaineering club to climb some non technical peaks)

(my idea: stove, aluminium pot with lid (antigravity gear or msr titanium) heat echanger (titanium brass or aluminium) msr pot grip, BPL spoon/fork and aluminium foil wind screen.

I have serious doubts about including a cozy for the pot

and of course i accept sugestions ;-)

I probably choose one msr windpro stove (lightest canister stove with preheater to be used with an inverted canister) and I don’t think that this stove is compatible with the ortik.

And I expect that a simple heat exchanger would be much lighter than the ortik.

Colin, thank you for your reasonable ideas, may be one aluminium exchanger could be lighter cheaper and more efficient,

As roger I’m really interested in that photos too

Thank you

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: altitude cooking system and heat echanger ideas needed on 05/16/2008 04:46:54 MDT Print View

Hi Carlos

> Anyway my first idea is to find a UL cooking system suitable for high altitude (Im planning one trip to Nepal with some members of my mountaineering club to climb some non technical peaks)

When I was there (some years ago now) it was rather hit and miss whether you could find suitable gas canisters for sale. You can't bring them in with you on the plane of course.

However, kero is available - very widely, and that is what most parties rely on. The Nepalese people use it for cooking and lighting.

You could do worse than to bring something like the Brunton Vapor AF with the fuel bottle cleaned out and full of water. That way you can use canister, white gas or kero and necessary. It's a good stove.

john oster
(krautklimb) - F
Re: heat exchanger on 03/30/2010 12:17:06 MDT Print View

Colin,

I am trying to find/make a light heat exchanger to use with a Windpro remote canister snow-melting set up. I've heard that heat exchangers can 'pay for themselves' in fuel savings after a few days on the trail. Your design sounds intriguing. Could you shed some more light on the design and/or post a few pics? I'm looking into securing some of the Kapton, but know nothing about it, so could use a little guidance on the design.

Thanks!

John

Colin Krusor
(ckrusor) - M

Locale: Northwest US
Kapton and silkevlar for windscreens on 03/31/2010 11:55:01 MDT Print View

John,

I never did get around to taking photos of the set up I had when I put up that post almost two years ago. I'm still experimenting with Kapton film. The stuff I have is 1 mil (25 micron) Kapton HN and is reinforced with a very fine fiberglass grid. It is aluminized on one side. When the reflective side faces the stove, I find that I can keep it pretty close to the flame without any apparent damage to the film. The published maximum continuous use temperature for this film is 710F. Like Mylar, though, Kapton film tears pretty easily once nicked (although much less easily than aluminum foil), and I think the 1 mil stuff would be too thin if it weren't for the fiberglass reinforcement.

I have also tried making silkevlar, for the same purpose (windscreens for stoves). Kevlar coated with high-temperature silicone could withstand much rougher treatment than the Kapton and would tolerate similar temperatures (almost 300F higher than silnylon).

I ordered some 0.8 oz kevlar fabric from CST Composites, and some Duraseal 1531 high temperature silicone from Cotronics. I applied a thin coating of the silicone to a small sample of the fabric and compressed it in a vise overnight. I tried this several times and was not able to get any of the samples to come out lighter than 5 oz/yard. The fabric is for composite layups and is not tightly woven or dimensionally stable. It resembles a screen (80 threads/inch) and the silicone has to fill the large spaces between the threads. I think this approach might have more promise if lightweight and tightly woven fiberglass or aramid fabrics were available.

Frank Deland
(rambler) - M

Locale: On the AT in VA
tiatnium on 04/01/2010 18:24:14 MDT Print View

Would this help?

http://www.titaniumgoat.com/windscreens.html

http://www.suluk46.com/RandD%20-%20RD1%20Ti%20Wood%20Stove.html

Colin: "Aluminum also has high conductivity, which is good for moving heat from the stove exhaust to the pot, but also good for moving that heat to the outside air. "

Home depot sells empty paint cans in quart size. Used in this wood stove:

http://trailgear.org/

Edited by rambler on 04/01/2010 18:31:46 MDT.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
ti heat exchanger on 12/18/2010 14:34:39 MST Print View

I just watched the steve house video and would like to bump this thread to see if anyone has any ideas on how to construct it?

I've got ti foil that I've used successfully for windscreens

thanks

mike

Josh Leavitt
(Joshleavitt) - F

Locale: Ruta Locura
Ti on 12/18/2010 16:46:09 MST Print View

Just a note to folks working with titanium, use comercially pure titanium when using it in contact with high heat and/or flames.

Also, titanium is only a poor conductor of heat on paper. In actual use, titanium's ability to transfer heat improves, the hotter it gets.

The Ti foil at both Suluk-46, and TiGoat are CP.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Ti on 12/18/2010 17:53:53 MST Print View

Josh, in actual use titanium is still a poor conductor of heat, as compared to aluminum. It varies with the exact alloys compared, but its thermal conductivity is about a tenth of aluminum, regardless of temperature. Titanium does have good thermal resistivity, though.

--B.G.--

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Re: titanium heat exchanger help on 12/18/2010 21:56:31 MST Print View

This was something I did back in April of 2004. The complete "How To" is located in a photo album at the "Make Gear" yahoo group. I think you might need to join to look at the photo albums.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MakeGear/

I thought I stared a thread for this here but can't find it.




I looked at the video and think his heat exchanger idea might be worth making a test model to play with.

Edited by bfornshell on 12/18/2010 21:59:58 MST.

Josh Leavitt
(Joshleavitt) - F

Locale: Ruta Locura
Thermal conductivity on 12/19/2010 19:01:51 MST Print View

Bob

Compared to aluminum, absolutey! Aluminum has much better heat transfer characteristics. People tend to look at a number in a reference book though, and say "oh that won't work", or "thats not good". Some of the numbers that you come across for Ti are based on electrcal resistence, which coralates well with metals like aluminum, but not with Ti. Ti is even used as heat shields in allot of aerospace applications, and this has to do with the temperature range where they are being used. Aluminum will oxidize at only a couple hundred degrees to the point that its heat transfer ability is severly inhibited, anodizing of the surface can help reduce this up to a certain tempurature though. Ti will begin to shine at these higher temps when oxidation becomes a bigger issue for aluminum. The oxide surface that is built on Ti at high temps does not inhibit heat transfer nearly as much as it does with other metals. Its all relative of course, but aluminum @ 1100 degrees, melts and then at a bit higher temp turns entirely to aluminum oxide with horrible heat transfer ability. Ti on the other hand will transfer far more heat @ the same 1100 degrees. Of course if you are in contact with a pot full of water at all times, you will never reach these temps, except at the extents of the heat exchanger, which could have a "building" effect. Like I said there would be other variables, it can be very dynamic depending on the particular situation. But for the same reasons that Ti is substituted for aluminum, like durability, I think there is good case for using Ti in such an application. Manufacturing alone would be one reason. Its not too often that Ti would be easier to work with compared to aluminum, but this would be one of those.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Thermal conductivity on 12/19/2010 19:40:36 MST Print View

Josh, let me guess. Were you a liberal arts major?

--B.G.--

Greg Mihalik
(greg23) - M

Locale: Colorado
Re: Re: Thermal conductivity on 12/19/2010 19:43:56 MST Print View

Bob,
Let me guess. You love to be pedantic?

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Thermal conductivity on 12/19/2010 19:49:16 MST Print View

Greg, I believe that Josh was the one who was attempting to teach.

--B.G.--

Josh Leavitt
(Joshleavitt) - F

Locale: Ruta Locura
Liberal arts on 12/19/2010 23:10:18 MST Print View

:-) not even close. And it was only an "attempt" if no one learned. There is allot of mysticism, some founded in science, in regard to titanium. If I lost you, I can try again ;-)