Paul,

I am especially sensitive to your comments because I do pack a lot with scout groups. I prefer to go out with 2 or 3, however, when working with scouts we are usually working with bigger groups (8-15 people). I feel for some people when they see us file into a camp. We try and camp away as much as possible to lessen the impact.

We teach and stress LNT principles. This is a big trend in scouting. One leader said that he remembers way back in the 60's when the scouts would arrive at a camp. It was as if a pack of wild animals had been through the place; big fires, cutting live limbs, trash, etc. I know we have come a long way in that regards. Before stressing LNT we always practiced "Pack it in pack it out."

Scouts by default are kids. They do things like kids even though they may have been taught correctly. It take awhile for things to sink in. Nonetheless, they are being exposed to the backcountry and learning important skills. Hopefully, as we all better our LNT skills it will carry on. If we don't teach them then who will? We always take a trash bag with us on our hikes to clean messes along the trail. You can't believe the amount of trash we take out on our hikes.

As a ranger I can't even imagine the things you must see.

Philmont was a good experience. Some of their methods will carry over to my hikes in the Sierras. I learn new things each time I go.

Scott

Here is one thing you might try for getting scouts engaged with LNT. It may be a little militaristic but it has worked for me: If you have two or more patrols, separate them and make a game or competition out of each patrol trying to find where the other camped after everyone has packed up and gathered in a central location before setting out again. If patrols are forced by terrain or other conditions to camp near each other, make a game out of each patrol trying to find anything that indicates that the other patrol(s) camped there. Arrange with the senior patrol leader to do a final check to see if *he* can find any clue. Drop some catch phrases on the senior patrol leader; they will work down to the scouts. "Would an enemy patrol find you?" "Camp like an outlaw on the run." "Camp like you are in enemy territory." Things like that catch kids' imaginations.

LNT is a must for scouts camping in the back country. As a scout leader I require all scouts to have LNT certification for participation in the high adventure program in our troop. Every year we hold a 7 week LNT training program for the boys so that they are prepared for the LNT testing. We make it a fun event and the boys always do well. When I took the boys on a 50 mile canoe trip the ranger quizzed the boys on their LNT knowledge and told us that they we very well prepared. As Scott said this doesn't mean that boys won't be boys, but the training is always good -- even for the adults.

Vick, that sounds like an awesome idea! Scouts love that kind of challenge.

Scott, thanks for the comments. Sorry to rant. I know most of the group leaders on this board must be pretty good about LNT.

Heh, my pet peeve is drink-straw covers. Or think bending over for miles of sticky broken skittles and m&ms as people walk by and grind them in more. I love it so, oddly enough.

Vick, was considering something like that too. It is a compelling scenario. Beyond camp eval, tracking a moving group could be a fun activity. Start a day apart and see if you can follow the first group. Could call it a SAR scenario for less militarism.

I had an interesting 2-group experience when we were kids. Our group was going to go 10 miles a day for 10 days. Pack weight was 50-55 lb. We did it, but we were overtaken by a group that did it in 6 days. Less food weight enabled that.
I remember thinking why the hell didn't they let us do it that way - we could have seen so much more! That was just the mindset of our camp councilors, they wanted to live out on the trail, not make time. Behind their backs we buried about 30 lb of extra food. Our idea of LNT at the time was put it in a 4-foot deep hole. Yes, we had shovels. Crrrazy.


Hey Ladies !! If on a day hike with females that use TP 4 PP, make sure they have an extra bag with their TP to pack it out. A common oversight.

If you're worried about diaper wipes not decomposing, then get the ones that are designed to degrade in a septic tank. Look for the "safe for septic tanks" label on them. These are more biodegradable than the other types.

And as for scouts causing damage, our boys have always been trained to leave the campsite at least as clean as they found it. If you're going to rant about groups that damage campsites, why not rant against horse packers? One horse is going to leave more manure all over the ground than 10 boy scouts.

Edited by KaiPL on 09/15/2008 23:00:05 MDT.

"One horse is going to leave more manure all over the ground than 10 boy scouts."

Yes, but if you had to step in a scouts manure it wouldn't be the same as stepping in a pile of horse manure!

I don't have a problem with horses. There's room for us all. It's a big wilderness out there. Fortunately, we are in a great position to teach scouts how to leave a smaller trace

Reminds me of: When I was in France with the Army, one day I reached into my kit, expecting to find a sandwich, the darn thing was loaded with SHAVING CREAM. Be nice and clean, shave everyday and you'll always look keen.

Scott,
Thanks for the blast from the past. My ankle says it's almost recuperated and ready to hoof it a few miles. Now Weird Al and Dr. Demento will be stuck in my head as I hike through my long weekend.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ7ls5LvUWY&fmt=18
Chris
p.s. When you get a youtube link and notice the video quality is less than desirable, you can improve it by adding this to the end of the link: &fmt=18

Edited by back2basics on 09/16/2008 18:13:36 MDT.

Pretty hard to limit your group size in Scouts sometimes. And I thought everyone taught and practiced LNT, but who knows. I am going to do the "patrol vs. patrol" idea on least impact camping.

What is the "Duct tape wrapped around a half a pencil" for?

Repairing everything in the world.