MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove using your Summer Upright Stove and the Brunton Stove Stand
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Ryan Jordan
(ryan) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Greater Yellowstone
MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove using your Summer Upright Stove and the Brunton Stove Stand on 05/06/2008 23:30:38 MDT Print View

Companion forum thread to:

MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove using your Summer Upright Stove and the Brunton Stove Stand

Patrick Young
(lightingboy) - F

Locale: Southwest
Exactly the MYOG article I was looking for! on 05/07/2008 08:37:24 MDT Print View

Thanks for your insight and design for converting a standard canister stove for winter use. I was looking at the Brunton stand as an option for liquid feed but was concerned about the the preheat feature it lacked. I was considering a MSR WindPro but didn't want to buy another stove. I'll be converting my Crux with this setup for winter.

Where can I purchase the Kovea inverted canister stand?

Monty Montana
(TarasBulba) - MLife

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove on 05/07/2008 12:02:03 MDT Print View

Roger, I have a question about materials for you. By selecting brass you say that allows the heating strip to pivot easily. Does that mean if an aluminum block were paired with a brass strip then too much friction would result and it would sieze up? Just curious about further weight savings. Thanks!

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove on 05/07/2008 16:17:15 MDT Print View

Hi Roger,

Thanks for another great article.

As a myog SUL stove designer and maker I like your metal strip pre-heat idea.

I am wondering as copper (401 W/(m.K) has nearly four times the thermal conductivity of brass (109 W/(m.K) and nearly the same density if some weight saving could have been made by using copper.

Tony

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Exactly the MYOG article I was looking for! on 05/07/2008 17:37:50 MDT Print View

Hi Patrick

> Where can I purchase the Kovea inverted canister stand?
Ah - sorry, I'm lost.
Details please?

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove on 05/07/2008 17:49:30 MDT Print View

Hi Monty and Tony

Brass vs Aluminium vs Copper

Yes, copper is a better heat conductor, and aluminium is lighter.

The problem with both copper and aluminium in this application are that they both wear badly under high sliding forces. Brass, on the other hand, is an excellent bearing material. You will note my comment about how the bolt did not come loose over the length of the field trip: I suspect that might not have been the case with copper of aluminium.

It is instructive to compare the weight of the brass block with that of copper and aluminium:
Brass: 8.06 g
Copper: 8.54 g
Alum: 2.59 g

There is negligeable difference in weight for the copper (as expected), and the 5.4 g difference for the Al block is, all things considered, not a large price to pay for the far greater life and reliability. Imho.

EDIT Nov-2008: I now strongly recommend that you use a copper fin rather than brass. Brass is not sufficiently conductive.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 11/19/2008 02:35:42 MST.

Steve Nutting
(sjnutting) - F

Locale: Southwest Colorado
Very nice! on 05/07/2008 19:37:54 MDT Print View

Very Nice! I saw that stand and thought of doing the same kind of thing. Thanks for pointing out that the pre-heater doesn't have to be red hot itself. That makes it a lot easier.

I might have to try this with my Pocket Rocket?

Patrick Young
(lightingboy) - F

Locale: Southwest
MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove on 05/07/2008 21:11:21 MDT Print View

Roger,

I'm in Flagstaff, Arizona.

Tried looking on the Kovea website but I saw nothing there in stove accessories.

Monty Montana
(TarasBulba) - MLife

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove on 05/08/2008 00:15:44 MDT Print View

Hi Patric! Kovea is the company that makes the Snow Peak stove, Brunton is the company that makes the stand. I'd like to find one, too! Tomorrow I'll try to make it out to REI and special order one. Happy trails!

Roger, thanks for the clarification regarding metals!

Jason Brinkman
(jbrinkmanboi) - MLife

Locale: Idaho
MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove - Stand Source on 05/08/2008 10:42:14 MDT Print View

Great article Roger!

I just ordered the Brunton Stove Stand from Brunton directly. With shipping it came to $30. They only ship to US and Canada, but some retailers also have them in stock.

It occurs to me that this should also work with the Jetboil components with the advantage of the added fuel efficiency that the integral heat exchanger would bring. I'm going to have to go back and research some component weights of Jetboil kits now.

Brunton Stove Stand Manual

Edited by jbrinkmanboi on 05/08/2008 10:50:19 MDT.

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
Very Nice MYOG Mod on 05/08/2008 14:12:41 MDT Print View

Brilliant and simple. I really like it...

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove - Stand Source on 05/08/2008 16:40:32 MDT Print View

Hi Jason

I am sure it will work with bits off a jetboil - in fact it will be much lighter than the helios I am sure.

But will the few grams of fuel savings be enough to outweigh the extra weight of the Jetboil stove? Do the sums yourself, but I have my doubts.

Cheers

Jason Brinkman
(jbrinkmanboi) - MLife

Locale: Idaho
MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove with Jetboil Components on 05/09/2008 13:05:25 MDT Print View

Hey Roger,

No, I am certain that the fuel savings would not offset the extra weight of the Jetboil stove and pot (especially the standard pot with neoprene cozy and rubber lid), unless you were on a very long trip (Roman?). However, carrying less fuel cannisters is pleasing to me, and the Jetboil design is nice too.

Personally, I am waiting for someone (are you listening Jetboil?) to produce a titanium pot with an integral heat exchanger. Preferably in two sizes - a 700 mL boiling pot, and a 2L snow melting pot.

I found a cut down Jetboil PCS project posted recently, unfortunately I couldn't read it, but the weights were getting down to acceptable.

I have always wanted to try cutting the plastic off the base of a Jetboil PCS stove to see how much weight can be saved, but I fear I would end up with an unstable system that would require further mods.

Maybe I am the only one here still facinated with the Jetboil's heat exchanger, but a BPL MYOG article on an UL version would be great.

Edited by jbrinkmanboi on 05/09/2008 13:22:09 MDT.

Roger B
(rogerb) - MLife

Locale: Here and there
Jason and Jetboil on 05/09/2008 13:17:02 MDT Print View

Hi Jason

I think this was the link your were mentioning.

found Jetboil change

Personally I will stick with an alcy stoves and a caldera with esbit as an option.

Edited by rogerb on 05/09/2008 13:19:07 MDT.

Jason Brinkman
(jbrinkmanboi) - MLife

Locale: Idaho
Re: Jason and Jetboil on 05/09/2008 13:28:27 MDT Print View

Yup, that's the one. Anyone got a Jetboil PCS that they want to part with for cheap? :)

Aaron Wallace
(basilbop) - F
Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove with Jetboil Components on 05/09/2008 15:58:36 MDT Print View

I've modified a Jetboil PCS to remove the black plastic base. The modification is easily reversible--you basically disassemble the stove and remove the black plastic part. The result can still be stable with a minor modification. It takes some fiddling to unscrew the valve part from the metal tube that goes to the burner--this is needed to remove the black plastic. To prevent the metal pot base from wobbling, I used a small ring of thin aluminum tubing between the burner head and the pot base, but anything that pushes the pot base against the circlip will work. Of course, after doing this, the piezo lighter is no longer usable. You also can't lock the cookpot to the stove, since there's no way to grab the hot stove to twist the pot off. I think this results in a ~2-3 oz. weight savings...

Al Shaver
(Al_T.Tude) - F - M

Locale: High Sierra and CA Central Coast
Ti Jetboil on 05/09/2008 16:04:18 MDT Print View

Jason writes: Personally, I am waiting for someone (are you listening Jetboil?) to produce a titanium pot with an integral heat exchanger.

The key feature of the Jetboil is greater efficiency through superior conductivity of heat from the flame to the pot and into the contained fluid. I'm afraid that TI's poor heat conductivity would be a buzz kill at this party.

Ti is an amazing material that solves many problems; weight, strength, corrosiveness, durability, heat weakening. But poor heat conductivity makes it a poor choice for a cooking pot. Thin aluminum pots easily outperform Ti pots when you weigh in the extra time and fuel consumed.

Additionally, for 1 and 2 person teams I use a .9oz Heineken can which is lighter than any Ti pot I've seen and conducts excellently.

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove with Jetboil Components on 05/09/2008 16:31:53 MDT Print View

Hi Jason,

Here is the URL of my MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove with Jetboil Components I have had it working at -7C.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/7265/index.html?skip_to_post=53450#53450

I think Rogers Winter stove conversion would be much more difficult to do than the stoves he has used as the burner is enclosed in the pot support, it possible could be done if the heating sstrip is easily removable by a wing nut or some similar system, I like the stove support Roger has used it is much better han mine.

Al

>Ti is an amazing material that solves many problems; weight, strength, corrosiveness, durability, heat weakening. But poor heat conductivity makes it a poor choice for a cooking pot. Thin aluminum pots easily outperform Ti pots when you weigh in the extra time and fuel consumed

I thought the same before I did some tests, I could not make Al pots perform better than my Ti pot, this was true with alcohol and canister gas. Below is a graph of my results and the points are boiling time for different flame settings. SS even performed better than Al.

Tony

Pot Efficiencr graph

Edited by tbeasley on 05/09/2008 16:34:28 MDT.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove with Jetboil Components on 05/09/2008 18:41:01 MDT Print View

> Ti is an amazing material that solves many problems; weight, strength, corrosiveness, durability, heat weakening. But poor heat conductivity makes it a poor choice for a cooking pot. Thin aluminum pots easily outperform Ti pots when you weigh in the extra time and fuel consumed

Both Tony and I have tested this belief, and neither of us have found enough evidence to justify it. The reason is fairly simple however. Yes, Al is a better conductor of heat than Ti, BUT all things are not equal. A Ti pot wall is so much thinner than an Al pot wall that the difference becomes negligeable: 0.2 C from memory!

However, when it comes to FINS, then things are really different. The Ti fins will NOT conduct heat into the pot with the speed Al fins do, because the heat won't flow along the length of the Ti fins nearly as well. Here the difference in thermal conductivity becomes very significant.

Cheers

Brett .
(Brett1234) - F

Locale: CA
Is a preheat tube necessary for inverted canister use? on 05/09/2008 21:34:41 MDT Print View

The Brunton adapter would allow me to invert my canister for winter use, but none of my stoves have pre-heat tubes. Is this a problem? Would liquid fuel spray everywhere in an expanding fireball?! The good experiences of other posters would indicate otherwise, but yet pre-heat tubes do exist.

Jason Brinkman
(jbrinkmanboi) - MLife

Locale: Idaho
Re: Is a preheat tube necessary for inverted canister use? on 05/10/2008 00:10:51 MDT Print View

Brett,

From my understanding of the article, either a heat conductor like Roger made with the brass strip, or a pre-heat tube, would seem prudent to prevent liquid fuel spray in some conditions (below freezing temps?). I think bottom line is that the butane needs to boil/vaporize at some point before it hits the burner head.

This article and posts have been very informative - I am learning a lot! Keep it coming everyone.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Is a preheat tube necessary for inverted canister use? on 05/10/2008 02:20:21 MDT Print View

> The Brunton adapter would allow me to invert my canister for winter use, but none of my stoves have pre-heat tubes. Is this a problem? Would liquid fuel spray everywhere in an expanding fireball?!
That's the whole point of this article. How to use the Brunton adapter plus a small modification to convert your summer upright stove (without pre-heat) to a winter stove with preheat.

Cheers

tkkn c
(tkknc) - MLife

Locale: Desert Rat in the Southwest
MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove on 05/10/2008 10:18:26 MDT Print View

You can also get the stove stand from Cabelas. It is $20 plus tax.

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove using your Summer Upright Stove and the Brunton Stove Stand on 05/10/2008 14:33:56 MDT Print View

Roger,

First ... great article!

Second ... is it easy to disassemble the Brunton stove stand if I wanted to try making replacement legs?

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove on 05/10/2008 19:18:46 MDT Print View

You can also get the stove stand from Cabelas. It is $20 plus tax.

or $23.73 shipped from Amazon

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove using your Summer Upright Stove and the Brunton Stove Stand on 05/12/2008 01:48:07 MDT Print View

> is it easy to disassemble the Brunton stove stand if I wanted to try making replacement legs?

Dead easy.
Grab the top and bottom parts of the central cylinder and unscrew.
Reassembly - get the legs in the right order! And include the spring washer.

Cheers

Rod Lawlor
(Rod_Lawlor) - MLife

Locale: Australia
Australian availability? on 05/12/2008 04:29:47 MDT Print View

Roger, do you know if anyone is stocking these down here?

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Australian availability? on 05/12/2008 16:00:46 MDT Print View

Sorry, no idea. Check with Brunton, or do what many do: buy over the web.

Cheers

nanook ofthenorth
(nanookofthenorth) - MLife
Great feature! on 05/12/2008 17:50:55 MDT Print View

Great feature Rodger, its cool to see my question from a few months back written up into a full on feature article. Thanks!

Mitchell Keil
(mitchellkeil) - F

Locale: Deep in the OC
Roger's rain jacket on 05/12/2008 20:46:16 MDT Print View

Rogger:
I know this is off topic but I could not help notice that in the picture of you on Mt Jagungal, you appear to be wearing a packa rain jacket/backpack cover. If I am right perhaps you might share with us your opinion of this unique product. I have been considering buying one but could never find anyone who's opinion I trust who owned one. Thanks for your continuing efforts in the DYI arena.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Roger's rain jacket on 05/12/2008 20:55:00 MDT Print View

Hi Mitchell

Yes, the poncho is similar to ThePacka unit, but the design of ours is actually my own. I guess it should be another MYOG article one day.

In addition to wearing them on Mt Jagungal here in Australia, we (my wife and I) wore these ponchos through France for 3 months, in some pretty bad weather. See http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/caffin_gear_list_revisited.html
'Bad weather' included lots of heavy rain and some snow.

However, I think the basic CedarTree Packa design is good, and very versatile. The sole deficiency is that you can't make a shelter out of it - but I much prefer a light tent anyhow.

Cheers

jas l
(jas123) - F
I was suprised to see this brunton stove stand at first. on 05/14/2008 00:41:11 MDT Print View

Because it looks same as the one I bought in China few years ago for under $5, at least on photo. Mine was made by an Chinese camping stove brand Huofeng. I guess this Brunton stove stand was either copied or most probably just relabeled of that Chinese product. The only difference is that Chinese version come with an additional pipe/head fitting for long "spray can" butane canister. which allow me to use cheap butane canister in summer, it so cheap you can get pack of four for $1.99 compare to the over $4 for an screw-in canister. I've seen a Hongkong store sell the stand on Ebay for $1.99.
Also Kovea have a similar stove stand.

Edited by jas123 on 05/14/2008 01:06:49 MDT.

Patrick Young
(lightingboy) - F

Locale: Southwest
MYOG Preheater on 05/14/2008 16:29:39 MDT Print View

Roger,

How would stailess steel conduct versus the brass? Where I work we have all kinds of stainless clamps that look like they will fit and lots of stainless sheet also.

Since most of it would be prefabricated it could save me time, but I'm willing to build from brass from scratch.

Edited by lightingboy on 05/14/2008 16:30:18 MDT.

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: MYOG Preheater on 05/14/2008 17:43:50 MDT Print View

not Roger here but this gave me an excuse to look for numbers to go with the vague advice I have long heard that stainless steel is a poor heat conductor.

This Source lists stainless's thermal conductivity coefficient as 16 vs 109 for brass. So for one made of brass would conduct about 6.8 times the heat energy as an identical sized piece of stainless.

That is a big diff .... but whether or not stainless would fall short of the NEED would require an actual test.

Edited by jcolten on 05/14/2008 17:44:36 MDT.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: MYOG Preheater on 05/14/2008 20:32:37 MDT Print View

Hi Patrick

Jim has given you the thermal conductivity numbers (thanks Jim!). What difference it would make in practice ... dunno.

EDIT Nov-2008: I doubt the SS would work. Brass is a minimum for the block. Copper is required for the fin.

I think the block of brass probably makes a better contact than a stainless clamp would. Does it matter? Dunno! But brass was easier to machine than SS. :-)

Try it and let us know?

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 11/19/2008 02:26:42 MST.

Pat Comer
(WPComer) - MLife

Locale: Aborokas
using a windpro as opposed to this setup on 05/29/2008 09:09:25 MDT Print View

I am wondering if all I would need to do to a wind pro stove from mountain safety research would be add the insert in the line. The unit already preheats the fuel tube with the burner and it would seem all one needs to do is "cut back" the liquid fuel coming through the hose and you would be cooking with less muss and fuss than this make over uses???? It is a good fix for on canister top stoves though.

Michael Davis
(mad777) - F

Locale: South Florida
Re: using a windpro as opposed to this setup on 05/29/2008 10:47:57 MDT Print View

Pat,
My winter stove is an inverted MSR WindPro with no modifications (other than inverting the canister).

Works like a charm!

Pat Comer
(WPComer) - MLife

Locale: Aborokas
windpro on 05/29/2008 13:41:10 MDT Print View

Thank you! It just all looked like it would work ok. The whisperlite might have to find a new home .

Steven Evans
(Steve_Evans) - MLife

Locale: Canada
Re: windpro on 05/29/2008 16:57:39 MDT Print View

I use an inverted windpro for winter aswell, but when the temps drop really low (-20 ish) it still seems to suffer. Not sure if it is the fuel or if it is just so dang cold that it takes forever to heat the water?!

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: using a windpro as opposed to this setup on 05/29/2008 16:57:49 MDT Print View

Hi Pat

I have used a WindPro with an inverted canister on a multi-day snow trip. The only trouble I had was some sort of gunge build-up at the valve. I do NOT know what caused this, and have never had this trouble with other stoves. I suspect it may have been too much grease around the O-rings - which wouldn't matter when the stove is being used with the canister upright of course.

Actually, the preheat tube on the WindPro is excessive, but the stove is simply a converted SimmerLite.

Michael Davis
(mad777) - F

Locale: South Florida
Re: windpro ... at -20 ? on 05/29/2008 18:17:54 MDT Print View

Steve,

I'll take you word on that! Come to think of it, I don't work so well at -20 either!

tkkn c
(tkknc) - MLife

Locale: Desert Rat in the Southwest
inverted hanging jetboil on 06/13/2008 16:03:07 MDT Print View

I did this mod to my hanging jetboil. I need to figure out a better way to hold the fuel inverted, the tape will not work well on a 4 day trip. Also, what is the best way to minimize the flare up that occurs when you first invert the fuel. I got a fire ball the first time I used this, that singed the cozy.

inverted jetboil hanging

Edited by tkknc on 06/13/2008 16:04:27 MDT.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: inverted hanging jetboil on 06/13/2008 16:40:51 MDT Print View

Hi Ken

> what is the best way to minimize the flare up that occurs when you first invert the fuel.
Options:
1) Start very low and let the stove warm up for 15 - 30 seconds.
2) Start with canister upright, and invert after maybe 20 seconds.
But it isn't a really good stove for doing this with anyhow as the thermal feedback is not good.

Reckon a couple of bits of light string might be fine for holding the canister instead of the tape, or even a 'hammock' of fabric off the corners of the hanger.

Cheers

Rod Lawlor
(Rod_Lawlor) - MLife

Locale: Australia
Converting a Simmerlite yourself? on 06/13/2008 17:51:35 MDT Print View

Has anyone ever experimented with converting a Simmerlite? I quite like the pot stability, as opposed to a PR on a Brunton, plus I already own a Simmerlite. Would it be viable to rig a block to screw onto a canister and then plug in the Simmerlite fuel line.

Roger wrote


Actually, the preheat tube on the WindPro is excessive, but the stove is simply a converted SimmerLite.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Converting a Simmerlite yourself? on 06/13/2008 19:35:59 MDT Print View

> Would it be viable to rig a block to screw onto a canister and then plug in the Simmerlite fuel line.
Of course.
The details are left as an exercise for the reader ... :-)
(But have a look at Tony B's recent postings.)

You might need a slightly larger jet with the gas.

Cheers

Matt Lutz
(citystuckhiker) - F

Locale: Midwest
Funtional limit? on 10/25/2008 11:22:09 MDT Print View

To revive an old thread:

Is there a functional minimum temp as to what temp a modified stove can handle? Is there any qualms about using a modified can stove as a serious snowmelter? Thanks.

Steven Evans
(Steve_Evans) - MLife

Locale: Canada
Re: Funtional limit? on 10/25/2008 14:23:50 MDT Print View

Hi Matt, I left this post on page 2

"I use an inverted windpro for winter aswell, but when the temps drop really low (-20 ish) it still seems to suffer. Not sure if it is the fuel or if it is just so dang cold that it takes forever to heat the water?!"

After last winter, I am no longer going to use the inverted windpro canister as a snow melter as it just isn't performing for me. This could be the stove, perhaps temps are just too low, or maybe it's just me! I have no test data (or scientific explanation) other then when it gets real cold, -20C or so, it really struggles. It literally starts to take forever to melt snow and you can see that the flame output just isn't there.
I'm going to experiment with some wood burning stoves this season to see if I can get some decent results.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Funtional limit? on 10/26/2008 03:53:04 MDT Print View

Hi Matt and Steve

> Is there a functional minimum temp as to what temp a modified stove can handle?

Yes. A 30% propane 70% butane canister will stop emitting gas at about -26 C. Laws of physics. What Steve found was about right, especially if the canister had less than 30% propane.

However, just because this is so does NOT mean you can't use a remote inverted canister stove under far colder conditions. You certainly can do so with just a little effort.
Step 1: Warm the canister inside your jacket for a while (You will be wearing one, right?).
Step 2: Start the stove running and quickly invert with the canister.
Step 3: Quickly warm a LITTLE bit of water to LUKE-warm body temperature.
Step 4: Pour this LUKE-warm water into the bowl made by the inverted base of the canister, and insulate the canister. (If using a Coleman Powermax canister, get creative.)

What you are doing here is adding heat to the canister from the LUKE-warm water to keep the gas above 0 C. This will make the stove work just fine. The canister does not have to be at ambient, after all.

Two notes to remember:

1: Do NOT use water any warmer than LUKE-warm! I really mean this. But equally, LUKE-warm water is perfectly safe.

2: Prevent the water from cooling fast by insulating it and the canister by blocking the loss of steam or water vapour. Otherwise the water will cool down quickly and turn to ice, mainly by evaporation.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 10/26/2008 03:53:43 MDT.

Steven Evans
(Steve_Evans) - MLife

Locale: Canada
Re: Funtional limit? on 10/26/2008 08:55:33 MDT Print View

"2: Prevent the water from cooling fast by insulating it and the canister by blocking the loss of steam or water vapour. Otherwise the water will cool down quickly and turn to ice, mainly by evaporation."

As in wrapping the canister with sleeping pad material and covering the "bowl" with the water in it with a piece of silnylon or something?

I do remember when I used to use an upright canister that when the water would boil over and spill onto the canister, the canister would suddenly have a bolt of energy and work much better for a few seconds.

Also, I'm just curious of your experiences, but how many times would you have to replace this luke warm water? Every minute? or is it every 10 minutes...tying to figure out the PITA factor :)

Thanks Roger.

Matt Lutz
(citystuckhiker) - F

Locale: Midwest
MYOG Winter Stove on 10/26/2008 09:01:17 MDT Print View

Thanks for the thoughts - I'm probably going to make this in the next few weeks and use it for at least fringe seasons. I have been using a Dragonfly for my primary winter snowmelter, but I would love to shave 10 oz off my winter stove weight.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Funtional limit? on 10/26/2008 14:45:42 MDT Print View

Hi Steve

> As in wrapping the canister with sleeping pad material and covering the "bowl" with the water in it with a piece of silnylon or something?

Anything like that. A 'cozy' covering the top and sides and made from bubble wrap would probably do. Just stop that evaporation!

I gave Sue some luke-warm water one morning in the snow so she could wash our plastic breakfast bowls out. She rinsed them clean, put them down wet and went looking for our mini-teatowel to dry them. By the time she had found it, the water left in the bowls had frozen! All she had to do was tap the plastic bowls so the ice fell out, and they were dry. Thus evaporation heat loss!

Another way of handling the problem is to leave the windshield around the stove open for a few inches and to position the canister near the opening in the windshield, so it gets a bit of the hot air and radiation from the stove. Needless to say, with this trick you MUST sit there and monitor the temperature of the canister. Luke warm is what you want; hot is absolutely NOT.

How much hot water, replaced how often? Depends very much on the conditions (and any evaporation loss). The key thing to remember here is that there are huge differences between using an upright and an inverted canister, thus:
* With an upright the gas is boiling inside the canister and the energy for this comes from the canister - so it chills down fast. You have to keep pumping in more energy or the canister will chill too far to boil.
* With an inverted canister there is almost no evaporation at all inside the canister: it happens at the stove using heat from the flame. So the canister does not chill down quickly. Get it warm and it will stay warm, barring external heat loss.

Cheers

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Make A Canister Cozy 08-24-2005 on 10/26/2008 15:47:22 MDT Print View

It is really to bad this site has no real search function. There are so many great MYOG threads hidden away in the closet here.

Or could it just be lazy members?


Make A Canister Cozy 08-24-2005

The wheel just keeps getting re-invented and re-invented.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Inverted Canister Stove - 01/04/2006 on 10/26/2008 15:55:21 MDT Print View

Inverted Canister Stove - 01/04/2006


Inverted Canister Stove

Brad Groves
(4quietwoods) - MLife

Locale: Michigan
limits on 10/27/2008 13:03:23 MDT Print View

Roger-

I guess this is a more appropriate thread for questions about the gases--

* With an upright the gas is boiling inside the canister
then
With an inverted canister there is almost no evaporation at all inside the canister:

I'm feeling slow here. But this is comparing two different things, right? Boiling in one canister, evaporation in the other? Except the gases couldn't actually evaporate unless they escape the canister, right? I asked on the other thread if the simple inversion of the canister actually changes the physics and separation of the gases--this makes it sound like it does! I sure like the sounds of it staying warm once warmed, though.

Bill, I don't think it has anything to do with lazy members. I know I've read all the old pertinent threads--shoot, everyone's remote canister set-ups and your Balrog inspired me to start creating my own! But I like how conversations here continue to develop and explore things from slightly different angles, too.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: limits on 10/27/2008 14:54:38 MDT Print View

Hi Brad

Replied on other thread. Yes, quite different fuel delivery systems.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=16401&disable_pagination=1

You are right about the confusing use of 'boiling' and 'evaporation'. I use 'boiling' to mean that lots of vapour is coming off, as in an upright stove or water boiling in a pot. With an inverted canister there is a high internal pressure from the gases, but the vapour at the top of the canister does not escape. I used 'evaporation' for the process of creating the pressure: it is similar to pumping a WG fuel tank.

Cheers

Mark Ferwerda
(mnferwerda) - MLife

Locale: Maryland
An inverted stand adaptor on 11/03/2008 18:43:59 MST Print View

I thought that I would share this with you all. One thing that was lacking here was a convenient way to invert the canister. I took a canister stand made by Primus and adapted it to work with the Brunton stand. The design of the Primus stand worked well here because I was able to center the canister attachment part of the Brunton stand on the top leg since the leg itself comes out from the side. Basically what I did was:

filing of leg
1 – Use a round file to file a groove in the top Primus leg to fit the top of the canister adapter

gluing leg to canister connector
2- Used some epoxy to glue the adaptor to the leg.

stripped down legs
3 – Removed the excess plastic from the other legs so that it all would fold together.

zip tie
4 – Finally I used a zip tie to minimize the stress on the epoxy.

The weight of the Brunton stand was 5.4 oz. The total weight when I got done was 6.0 oz. I did file some of the excess metal from the steel legs from the stand for the stove.

all together
Here is what it looks like all folded up (yeah it is a big screw isn’t it).

Matt Lutz
(citystuckhiker) - F

Locale: Midwest
Looking for assistance on 11/18/2008 19:59:27 MST Print View

I put everything together, and am having a few problems. I am using an MSR PocketRocket, but that shouldn't matter. My block parts and fin were made of brass, the screw was steel. The blocks were made it out of one piece of brass and drilled the holes before cutting it in half. The rod I put inside the brass tube was about 1.8 or 1.9 mm. There is a slight gap between the blocks (more so on the top). I was using Snow Peak canisters, and all of my testing was done in temps in the mid to low 20s (F). I did however, throw the canisters in the freezer to cool them and better simulate winter conditions before the testing began. Each test lasted about 10 minutes.

I cannot get the gas to vaporize properly. When the canister is upside down, I get a continuous fireball, even on very low power. Even after the stove heats up and the upright fin appears to be warm, but it does not appear to be vaporizing the gas.

To try to correct this, I added some thermal compound between the blocks and between the fin and one of the blocks in an effort to increase heat transfer. This did not work, and the stove never settled down.

Also, I can settle the flame be leaning the canister slightly while upside down. I am using mostly-empty canisters. However, as soon as I tip the canister fully upside-down, the stove fireballs again.

As I see it, I can cut a new blocks and hope for a better fit and/or make the fin out of copper to increase heat transfer. I also think I should add a thicker rod inside the brass tube to decrease gas flow.

Any suggestions?

Edited by citystuckhiker on 11/18/2008 20:01:10 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: An inverted stand adaptor on 11/19/2008 02:13:54 MST Print View

Wow!
Elegant!

Roger

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Looking for assistance on 11/19/2008 02:24:04 MST Print View

Hi Matt

> When the canister is upside down, I get a continuous fireball, even on very low power.
> Even after the stove heats up and the upright fin appears to be warm, but it does not appear to be vaporizing the gas.
> My block parts and fin were made of brass

I have had this problem myself too. I found that the brass strip I had installed was simply not conductive enough. I swapped over to a copper strip (lying on the bench ...) and the arrangement worked fine.
Have a look at this page
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/thermal-conductivity-d_429.html
You will see that the thermal conductivities of relevant metals are:
Brass 109 W/(m.K)
Aluminium 255
Copper 400

Brass is only 1/4 as conductive as copper. So while using brass for the solid block is OK, you have to use copper for the fin. You could try thick aluminium if you like (1/16" maybe) but there is always the risk of melting it.
You could also try a hard Al alloy for the block if you have some.

> I also think I should add a thicker rod inside the brass tube to decrease gas flow.
Secondary imho.

Cheers
Roger

Matt Lutz
(citystuckhiker) - F

Locale: Midwest
Thanks on 11/19/2008 06:00:03 MST Print View

Thanks - I'll make the fin out of copper and report back.

James D Buch
(rocketman) - F

Locale: Midwest
Re: Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove with Jetboil Components on 11/20/2008 08:18:02 MST Print View

tbeasley wrote:

>Ti is an amazing material that solves many problems; weight, strength, corrosiveness, durability, heat weakening. But poor heat conductivity makes it a poor choice for a cooking pot. Thin aluminum pots easily outperform Ti pots when you weigh in the extra time and fuel consumed

I thought the same before I did some tests, I could not make Al pots perform better than my Ti pot, this was true with alcohol and canister gas. Below is a graph of my results and the points are boiling time for different flame settings. SS even performed better than Al.

Tony

Pot Efficiencr graph

If the graph came through, the small study shows that if you want minimum fuel consumption, use of a four minute boil or so is much more important than the choice of pot material -- at least between Stainless Steel, Aluminum and Titanium.

This conclusion probably doesn't encompass the inclusion of heat exchanger devices attached between the burner flame and the pot. It makes sense that heat exchangers would increase the efficiency, and someone (JetBoil)has probably done tests to demonstrate this.

elias heyns
(chiefcrazytalk) - F
is an upsidedown canister/ preheating the gas necessary? on 11/22/2008 04:52:37 MST Print View

i haven't used a remote canister stove in the winter yet, but i do know that i can stop my stove (primus micron) from performing poorly in cold weather by holding the canister. obviously this warms the canister (and freezes my hands) and i get dinner in a reasonable amount of time.

my question is why wouldn't you be able to put a longer hose on the adapter and throw the canister in your sleeping bag. the temp in there would be way above freezing.
is there something i'm missing about the whole thing?
sorry if it was explained before.

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: is an upsidedown canister/ preheating the gas necessary? on 11/22/2008 09:18:42 MST Print View

If you're in the sleeping bag with the canister it would keep it warm and maintain fuel pressure. I don't know how much the vapor would cool in its path through the long hose, however. I also don't konw how much fuel you'd lose in a long hose, between uses.

In an unoccupied sleeping bag the effect would eventually be the opposite, as the bag would insulate it while it naturally cooled and it would freeze up. You'd be better off stuffing it into your jacket.

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove with Jetboil Components on 11/22/2008 09:26:13 MST Print View

I have to agree. The material in titanium pots is so thin that conductivity differences have a minimal affect on heat efficiency. Ti pots do exhibit hot spots, which makes cooking on them trickier than aluminum, but for boiling water there's no effective difference.

Same thing for plain metal versus black-painted--no appreciable difference.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: is an upsidedown canister/ preheating the gas necessary? on 11/22/2008 13:50:02 MST Print View

> I don't know how much the vapor would cool in its path through the long hose, however.
Actually, the temperature of the hose does not matter at all. As long as there is pressure in the canister to drive the gas out of the jet, that is enough.

> I also don't konw how much fuel you'd lose in a long hose, between uses.
Yeah, a problem in principle, but most hoses are actually filled up with something to reduce the volume down to a reasonable level. Think of the heavy SS cable in the big fuel lines of some MSR white gas stoves. The effect is there, but it is not quite that great.

Cheers

Paul Tree
(Paul_Tree) - F

Locale: Wowwww
0 degrees C stove operation on 11/23/2008 15:23:46 MST Print View

I thought it was an interesting fact that Roger Caffin posted:
-20 C is the cutoff for 30/70 canisters. Much weight, time and effort has been dedicated to keeping the canister off the snow, but if air temps are much below freezing and snow is (ideally) 0 degrees, might it make sense to make contact between cylinder and snow?
Snow surface temps are usually below zero in reality due to radiative and evaporative cooling, so may not work in real life, but made me curious...stove in ice

Looks like there is some orange in the flame. It it is on pretty high (sorry, not very scientific) with about 3 MPH wind. Some orange flame is normal if run on high, but this seems just a bit more. As long as the gas gets out of the canister to the hot stove, it shouldn't be actually wasting any power, right? Although you'd be burning a higher percent of propane. Maybe just propane?


"Propane is more suited to colder environments since it evaporates at -44oF (-42oC) at atmospheric pressure. Butane evaporates at 33oF (-0.5 oC) at atmospheric pressure."

Doh.
stove in ice on fire

Edited by Paul_Tree on 11/23/2008 16:14:38 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: 0 degrees C stove operation on 11/23/2008 23:07:59 MST Print View

I LOVE IT!

May I ask for permission to use this photo (somewhere, with acknowledgement), PLEASE!

Now to the question of why this works. Several steps.

The MSR red canister contains iso-butane, which has a boiling point of (roughly) -11 C, and propane, with a boiling point of about -42 C. This canister will work to about -24 C in liquid feed mode.

In the photo the stove is chugging along happily while the canister is embedded in ICE! I am going to guess that you froze the lot in an ice-cream tub in the freezer? So what temperature is the ice at in the photo? My guess is that it might be somewhere between 0 C and -4 C, what with the warmth of the sun etc. Note: this is well above the boiling point of iso-butane!

Finally, let's look at what the block of ice is doing. It is in GOOD thermal contact with the canister. The fuel inside is boiling away and would be cooling down, except that the huge mass of ice is busy pumping energy into the canister. I would guess that the stove is burning both propane and iso-butane (but I am not sure at what ratio).

This is (one reason) why MSR puts iso-butane rather than n-butane in this canister: it will function at temperatures slightly below freezing, and for many walkers that is as cold as they get. The downside is that the canisters are dearer than commodity 70% n-butane ones. Well, you pay your money and take your choice.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 11/23/2008 23:10:36 MST.

Paul Tree
(Paul_Tree) - F

Locale: Wowwww
ice stove photo on 11/24/2008 11:57:33 MST Print View

Glad you like it Roger, it seemed like a true BPL pic.
If you want, I have a few more full size photos and maybe they are better. PM me an email address if you like, use them as you wish.

I had been assuming it would be at zero so I didn't even measure! There was just a smidge of unfrozen water in the ice, and once the stove started, it could be spun around freely and did not refreeze when extinguished. Also missing is testing of boiling times. I boiled a cup of water outside and timed it, but realized two of the same stoves were needed at the same time, one frozen and one not, to get the clearest results.
As well as 2 of the same pot and lids in good shape.
As well as a ventilated yet more wind-sheltered test area, eg garage with door open.

It would also be good to run it through a whole canister and see if there is degraded performance towards the end.
Couldn't bring myself to just let it keep burning though.

In snow, you could take off the top coldest layer of snow and get to some -2C snow. If anyone does this, try embedding an led light in the ice as well to illuminate the night shot.

Edited by Paul_Tree on 11/26/2008 20:08:14 MST.

Matt Lutz
(citystuckhiker) - F

Locale: Midwest
Stove efficiency questions on 12/11/2008 13:00:55 MST Print View

Over-arching question - how will using the stove stand affect stove efficiency i.e. how will it affect the amount of fuel used per pint of water boiled/snow melted?

Testing of the PocketRocket, and other can stoves, was done by BPL in this thread: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lightweight_canister_stoves_test_report.html. Note that the gas cans and the stove were cooled to 10F before testing. The curious thing about this is that the PR was run at max flame, but fuel consumption decreased because the stove was running at a slower pace. "Under cold conditions (column 4), fuel consumption decreased because the stoves burned more slowly (equivalent to a moderate flame), even though they were set at full throttle." (under Table 2). Given that, is it advisable to run the stove at full throttle? If so, at what temps?

Second: If isobutane has a boiling point of 10F, do I need to turn the canister upside when temps are above 10F? In testing in approximately 30 degree weather, the flame increased dramatically when I turned the canister right-side up.

Third: Also, how does temperature and canister position affect which fuel (isobutane or propane) is burned?

Thanks as always.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Stove efficiency questions on 12/11/2008 14:45:10 MST Print View

> how will using the stove stand affect stove efficiency
Complex.
If you have the pot at the optimum height you will get 'good' efficiency. Raising the pot a foot is obviously going to seriously reduce the efficiency (out the window in fact!). Lowering the pot right onto the burner is going to quench the flame a fair bit and this too will reduce the efficiency a bit - but not as much.
But then questions of wind speed come in, as Will's article shows.
Far more important is the fact (imho) that when the pot is too close the amount of CO generated rises significantly. This was discussed at huge length in the CO series of articles.

> fuel consumption decreased because the stove was running at a slower pace
Absolutely. Running a stove flat out wastes a whole lot of heat up the side of the pot. Running it at about half power is far more efficient and heats the water almost as fast. I never run my stoves flat out, under any conditions (except for lab stove testing!).

> If isobutane has a boiling point of 10F, do I need to turn the canister upside when temps are above 10F?
By and large, it makes sense to use the canister upside down. Otherwise the propane tends to preferentially evaporate. OK, if its 60 F there's no problem, but if you are using the Brunton Stand in cold weather it makes sense to invert.

> In testing in approximately 30 degree weather, the flame increased dramatically when I turned the canister right-side up.
I don't understand this. Usually the flame increases when the canister is inverted. I suspect a blockage or the valve was knocked.

> how does temperature and canister position affect which fuel (isobutane or propane) is burned?
Read through the other articles on canister stoves I have written: it is all there in great detail. The Series on Winter Stoves will be most helpful:
Selecting a Canister Stove for Cold Weather Backpacking
Part I: Stove and Fuel Fundamentals
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/selecting_stoves_for_cold_weather_part_1.html

Selecting a Canister Stove for Cold Weather Backpacking
Part II: Commercially Available Canister Stove Systems
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/selecting_stoves_for_cold_weather_part_2.html

Cheers

Matt Lutz
(citystuckhiker) - F

Locale: Midwest
Clarification. on 12/11/2008 16:07:29 MST Print View

> fuel consumption decreased because the stove was running at a slower pace
Absolutely. Running a stove flat out wastes a whole lot of heat up the side of the pot. Running it at about half power is far more efficient and heats the water almost as fast. I never run my stoves flat out, under any conditions (except for lab stove testing!).

Here's what I don't get. On the testing, a PR in cold conditions at full flame used less gas to bring 1 qt of water to a boil than a PR in optimal conditions at moderate flame did. Can you explain?

I assume I would save even more fuel if I operated the stove in cold conditions at a moderate flame.

I'm going to go test things out tonight in about 10F and report back.

Tad Englund
(bestbuilder) - F - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: MYOG - A Winter Canister Stove using your Summer Upright Stove and the Brunton Stove Stand on 02/16/2009 18:36:32 MST Print View

Roger or anybody, has anyone had any experience with a MSR Pocket Rocket using the Brunton Stove Stand?

Daren Neufeld
(DarenN) - F
hybrid on 02/20/2009 18:49:38 MST Print View

i took a pocket rocket apart and found that the threads in the bottom of the mixing tube are the same as the threads on the brunton stove stand. i took the jet out of the PR valve and mounted it in the brunton base, and mounted the PR directly on the base. a spacer was required to get the proper hieght. then i got rid of the brunton legs and built a new set out of aluminum. it turned out to be a nice little stove.

Daren....

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: hybrid on 02/20/2009 22:21:38 MST Print View

Hi Daren

I think I understand, but we want a good photo of it!
And welcome to the world of MYOG canister stoves. :-)


Tad - I haven't, but it seems Daren has.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 02/20/2009 22:22:53 MST.

Tad Englund
(bestbuilder) - F - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: hybrid on 02/20/2009 22:22:00 MST Print View

Daren do you have any pictures of the "new" stove?

Daren Neufeld
(DarenN) - F
Hybrid on 02/21/2009 06:47:58 MST Print View

Roger; with some help from Tony B i've been building canister stoves for quite a while now. they get lighter and smaller as i learn more.

Tad; let's see if i can figure out how to post a pic here.Brunton/Rocket Hybrid

Daren......

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Hybrid on 02/21/2009 15:04:05 MST Print View

Hi Daren

Ah, well, you are in good hands with Tony.

OK, I am much impressed. So much so that I want to ask some questions and make some suggestions.

What's the bit clipped to the top of the burner? A wind-deflector? If so, did you make it yourself? What metal? And does it contribute anything if you use a windshield?

The legs you have made fascinate me. I was wondering how best to reduce the weight of the originals. Aluminium angle?

The pot supports: what metal? It looks like aluminium wire, which would worry me badly. Titanium wire would be fine of course. How are they anchored into the legs - just by press-fit? I admit I would worry about them working loose over time, especially after a bit of rough treatment.

The hose connection: are you planning on adding a heat shunt to this for inverted canister use? If so you may need to look very carefully at how the hose is kept on the fitting: when it gets warm the hose could blow off (maybe). Actually, I would worry about the hose connection anyhow: I have had them leak - at which stage there are little growing flames in the wrong places.

Fun!
Cheers
Roger

Daren Neufeld
(DarenN) - F
Hybrid on 02/21/2009 17:37:09 MST Print View

Roger;
thank you for your input.
the three-sided part on top of the burner is purported to be a windscreen by the company selling the stove in this part of the world. MSR. i take it the Kovea version doesn't have this feature?

the base legs are made from 14gauge 5052 aluminum sheet. all cutting and drilling was done "on the flat" and they were formed afterwards. (i'm a metal-worker by trade)

the pot supports are in fact aluminum welding rod. 1/8" diameter, 7000 series (i forget exactly which). the rods are threaded and the base legs are tapped with a #5 machine screw thread. i appreciate, and understand, your concerns about the potstand legs being aluminum. i was concerned as well; at first. after a half dozen stoves and many pots of water boiled, none of my potstands have collapsed due to heat. i had one tip over with a heavey kitchen pot on it with four liters of water. no damage, just a soggy kitchen. :D .
i hadn't planned on any future additions to this particular stove. if i did add a heat shunt i would completely change the fuel input line to a copper line, and run it up through the edge of the fire. but, i have two other stoves with this feature, so i doubt this will ever happen.
i've had fuel leaks as well. they aren't fun, but are easily avoidable.

when i did the modifications to the stand and stove i had not yet started building my own stoves. it was a stepping stone on the road to actually machining my own stuff. i've got a lot of commercial stoves and the only ones i won't mess with, (besides antiques), are the Optimus Nova, and the Snow Peak GS100.

Daren........

Edited by DarenN on 02/21/2009 17:40:33 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Hybrid on 02/21/2009 20:45:55 MST Print View

Hi Daren

The Kovea stove I was referring to is rather like the Vargo Jet-Ti and the Snow Peak GS100. These two are my idea of a Gold Standard for uprights.

That the 1/8" Al rod supports are surviving the heat so well is very interesting. Hum ... That the rods were threaded into the angle was not visible in the pics.

> i had one tip over with a heavy kitchen pot
The solution to this problem, in my experience, is to switch from 3 pot supports to 4. The extra support really does make a lot of difference to the stability. But, of course, it is extra weight.

We want to see more MYOG canister stoves! If you want to make even more of the stove, remember that the thread on the Lindal valve is 7/16" 28 tpi UNEF (UNEF). Taps and dies are available from e-taps.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 02/21/2009 20:47:58 MST.

Daren Neufeld
(DarenN) - F
27g stove on 02/22/2009 07:38:27 MST Print View

here's a pic of my latest stove. it boils two cups of water in 6 minutes using 6 grams of fuel, or 3 minutes using 9 grams of fuel. i'm using a Brunton valve for now as i havn't gotten into machining my own yet. the stove weighs 27 grams (not including valve).
27g stove

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: 27g stove on 02/22/2009 15:36:26 MST Print View

Hi Daren

Neat. Ti top plate? or SS?

Do you have a dome of mesh inside the burner head, maybe over the main upright tube? It looks like it.

What is the fuel line? Source? I can't find anything with a really fine bore like that, so I have to assemble my own.

Cheers

Daren Neufeld
(DarenN) - F
details on 02/22/2009 21:50:13 MST Print View

the top plate is Stainless Steel.
there is a diverter plate in the burner head. it is a 1/2" round S/S punch knockout spot welded to, and supported by, S/S woven wire mesh.
the fuel line is the Brunton stove stand line with a short piece of heat shrink tubeing on the end. i have a local source here in Canada that can supply the same hose. they are called New Line Hose and Fittings. pricey stuff.

Daren......

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Hybrid Stove on 12/26/2009 09:40:13 MST Print View

I was so impressed by Daren's hybrid stove I decided to make my own version for my first stove project.
Hybrid stove

Many of the parts came from a MSR Pocket Rocket and a Brunton Stove Stand. As pointed out by Daren, the Pocket Rocket mixer tube has the same thread as the Brunton base so it can be simply screwed on (with a small spacer) after cutting a thread on the stand base to take the PR jet. This is an easy and worthwhile modification on its own, saving 39g by eliminating the PR valve/base.

The heat shunt is made from aluminium with a small copper fin. Aluminium has double the thermal conductivity/density of copper, but copper is used for the fin as aluminium has a low melting point of just 660C. I actually wonder if this heat shunt is a bit too efficient, as the whole base gets quite hot after a while.

The steel legs from the Brunton stand are replaced with legs made from 1.5mm aluminium sheet. The pot supports are cut down titanium tent pegs which push fit into the legs. The size of the legs and pot supports were chosen carefully so that the folded stove fits neatly inside my preferred cooking pot (AGG 3-cup Al pot) with room to spare.
Stove in pot

The complete stove weighs 174g (6.14oz).

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Hybrid Stove on 12/26/2009 13:47:31 MST Print View

Blimey - the competition is getting fierce! I am much impressed by all these pictures. The Ti pot supports are also impressive.

> I actually wonder if this heat shunt is a bit too efficient, as the
> whole base gets quite hot after a while.
Could be. The solution is very simple however - slim down the copper heat absorber and slim down the aluminium upright. You should be able to make up a couple of variants and measure their performance?

Cheers

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Re: Re: Hybrid Stove on 12/26/2009 14:47:07 MST Print View

Hi Stuart,

Very nice work especially for a first effort.

tip: you can take the so called flame wind protector off the burner, in my opinion it is useless against the wind and my tests show that if anything it possibly reduces the efficiency.

Tony

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Re: Re: Hybrid Stove on 12/27/2009 11:19:47 MST Print View

Hi Guys, thanks for the tips.
I prised off the 'windshield' and slimmed down the aluminium heatshunt to 4mm dia. This seems to be an improvement, but I would like to do better. I think performance would be improved by running a pre-heat tube through the flame and I would also like to use a fuel hose with a smaller bore, but it's a question of being able to source suitable materials in small enough quantity to be affordable.
Flame control in liquid feed mode is a bit course, but there's not much I can do about the valve.
Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hybrid Stove on 12/27/2009 14:35:37 MST Print View

Hi Stuart

Small bore hose is a problem. The stuff most companies use starts at 1/4" because that's where the market is. The alternative is to make your own out of Teflon or PFA tubing and SS braid.

> performance would be improved by running a pre-heat tube through the flame
Only to the extent that it would be easier to ensure that the liquid fuel has boiled. It won't make any difference once that has happened.

> Flame control in liquid feed mode is a bit course, but there's not much I can do about the valve.
You are right - valving the liquid is very tricky. That's why mounting the whole stove on the Brunton stand has some merit: you get a valve at the gas feed. But it is extra weight. Oh yes - you NEED the valve at the canister as well, as a safety on/off.

Cheers

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hybrid Stove on 12/27/2009 20:39:19 MST Print View

Hi Stuart,

>I think performance would be improved by running a pre-heat tube through the flame and I would also like to use a fuel hose with a smaller bore, but it's a question of being able to source suitable materials in small enough quantity to be affordable.

I played around with preheat tubes on my early Pocket Rocket modifications.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/winter_canister_stove_modifications.html

I used some small bore high pressure tube on that stove mod, now I use SS hypodermic tube which works very well and is light, I am lucky as through my work I have access to such things.

Tony

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Capillary SS tubing on 12/28/2009 03:20:14 MST Print View

There is a company called Small Parts which sells small-bore SS tubing:
http://www.smallparts.com/
I have NOT dealt with them (and have no connection with them), but at least they sell the stuff in less than truck-loads!

Doubtless there are many others.

Cheers

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Needle valve on 12/29/2009 13:55:12 MST Print View

Useful stuff there, thanks for that.

I'm thinking about regulating the liquid flow using a needle valve (from a RC model engine) just before a pre-heat tube. This is the arrangement on my Coleman Sportster white gas stove and works well. Any thoughts?

Turning ideas into reality is always another matter, however.

Ben Pearre
(fugue137) - MLife
Preheating at the hose on 02/24/2010 12:40:00 MST Print View

Niiiiice!

I've been using a WindPro for a while and it's been working pretty well, except that the hose doesn't swivel: I like starting it in gas-feed mode and preheating the preheat tube with no flareups, but inverting the canister tends to flip the stove upside down. It would be stupid to put a couple of o-rings in the hose-to-canister connector, right? The connector screws in, so pivoting it would result in changing the compression of the o-rings. I'm guessing that I'd re-learn what Feynman learned about the Challenger--that o-rings aren't very flexible at -20. Any other ideas?

As for this mod of yours, I'm worried about one thing: most plastics don't really like heat or thermal change. The end of the fuel hose and the connector at the preheat end have plastic bits. So:

1) How about replacing the single rubber o-ring at the preheat end with a brass washer or two? That end doesn't need to be adjustable and brass will seal quite well (easy to verify, too). I used a brass washer to change the (fixed) orientation of the canister connector in my WindPro and it tested leak-free.

2) Your thermal transfer from the fixed heat-conductive rod is uncontrolled (or at best open-loop). You get a certain amount of heat transfer, and it's fixed, so the temperature of the preheat block is a crap shoot. But you could build a closed-loop controller with just a differentially-expanding material (two metals laminated together as on a metal-strip thermometer) near the base of the heating strip. If the preheat block got too hot, the heating rod would bend away from the flame, and vice versa. Then the setpoint should be easy to calibrate so that the generator never got hot enough to damage any plastics.

3) Why a 1mm fin? Wouldn't a cylinder conduct better (higher volume, lower surface area)? Or is the area under the pot going to be warm enough anyway that heat loss down the fin is a non-issue? Given that you said "Use copper; brass doesn't conduct well enough" I'm guessing that changing the section might be another viable fix.

4) As for brass vs. copper vs. aluminium bearings: would a couple of brass washers solve the problem? Their bearing friction should be lower than that of the brass-copper or brass-aluminium interface, right?

I too wish for a titanium pot with aluminium or copper fins welded on, but that'd be a trick. BPL custom gear shop? Meanwhile, REI is currently selling the Primus EtaPower 1.7l pot with heat exchanger fins (claiming 212g; similar to the MSR 2l Ti) to $35. I have one on order (it's web only but free shipping to an REI store).

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Preheating at the hose on 02/24/2010 14:32:02 MST Print View

The MSR fittings are a problem, I know. More recent designs from Primus and others feature a genuine rotating connection at the canister. MSR apparently gave up.

> The end of the fuel hose and the connector at the preheat end have plastic bits.
I'm not sure I understand exactly what you mean here. I assume you are talking about the Brunton stove stand?

Ah, well, that end gets hot under any conditions, doesn't it? But the 'plastic' you are talking about (inside the hose) is actually Teflon or PFA, and they will take very high temperatures. It's not a problem under realistic conditions.

The O-rings should be Viton. That can take high operating temperatures as well - over 200 C.

Yes, you could use brass washers to adjust spacing, but I think that places a high force on the screw threads, which would worry me a bit. I would need drawings of what you propose to comment further as I am not sure I understand.

Yes, the thermal feedback is sort of fixed. But the system can tolerate a very broad range of temperature, so precise control is not needed. As long as the preheat block is over (about) +20 C everything works fine. If it gets up to 50 C ... no worries. If it gets to 100 C I would back the fin off a bit, but even so that should not cause problems. You can fine tune the feedback by adjusting the length of the fin or the angle it goes into the flame too.

One thing to remember is that a small flame might not put quite as much heat into the fin as a big flame, but a small flame does not need as big a gas flow either. There is a sort of balance here between heat flow and heat requirement.

Why a 1 mm copper fin? I found that 1 mm x 6 mm copper fine worked fine. Aluminium has half the thermal conductivity of copper, so an aluminium fin 2 mm x 6 mm might work just as well. Do remember that aluminium melts around 550 C, so don't get the tip of the fin too hot! But yes, I have used an aluminium fin on other stove designs.

> brass vs. copper vs. aluminium bearings:
Sorry, more details needed. I'm not understanding just yet.

> a titanium pot with aluminium or copper fins welded on, but that'd be a trick.
Yeah. Actually, I suspect it would be a metalurgical breakthrough! Worth $$$.

Cheers

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
MYOG A Winter Stove Stand on 12/26/2010 07:27:32 MST Print View

The modified Brunton stand is a great starter project, but the end product is far from light. After a couple of iterations in which a learned a few things which are not obvious, here is the final (possibly!) version of my winter stove stand.
Gnat on MYOG stand
The stand weighs 58g, the Gnat stove weighs 47g and so the complete winter stove is 105g (3.7oz).
At this weight I'll probably use it most of the year round, with the lighter 170g canisters.

James Klein
(jnklein21) - M

Locale: Southeast
wow on 12/26/2010 11:27:01 MST Print View

3.7 oz!! very impressive.

All I want for christmas is a .... Stuart, inverted canister stove tutorial.

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
Re: Preheating at the hose on 12/26/2010 11:58:34 MST Print View

Roger….Your “original design” (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/myog_winter_stove_summer_upright_stove_brunton_stnd.html ), you stated “made the heat conductor 90 millimeter high (to match the height of the stoves I was proposing to use) and 10 millimeter wide.” You used a Snow Peak GST100 and a Vargo Jet-Ti in that design.

On 02/24/2010, Re: Preheating at the hose posting you say “I found that 1 mm x 6 mm copper fin (Heat Conductor) worked fine.”

QUESTION: Were you using the same stoves as in your “original design” with the copper fin design change from 10mm to 6mm?

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: MYOG Winter Stove Stand on 12/26/2010 12:27:14 MST Print View

James
I made this without the use of a lathe or even a drill press, so perhaps a brief tutorial is not out of the question if there is genuine interest. Almost all of the component parts are obtainable, with the exception of the SS braid - this is a Roger 'special'
cheers

Edited by Scunnered on 12/26/2010 12:28:35 MST.

James Klein
(jnklein21) - M

Locale: Southeast
interest on 12/26/2010 13:20:19 MST Print View

Stuart,

Genuine would be putting it mildly.

James

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Preheating at the hose on 12/26/2010 13:25:18 MST Print View

Hi Ken

The stove used is not really relevant: what matters is the temperature of the flames and the thermal conductivity between the flame and the block at the bottom. All that is needed is for the block (and hence the fuel inside) to be warmed enough to be somewhere between 10 c and 50 C - above freezing but touchable. Great scope for fine-tuning!

The original 10 mm wide heat shunt (heat conductor) was made of brass, but that has a lower thermal conductivity than copper. By changing the brass to copper I was able to reduce the width to 6 mm and still have the same conductivity.

You can also do some fine tuning by adjusting the length of the heat shunt and how it pokes into the flame. Even more scope. :-)

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: wow on 12/26/2010 13:29:14 MST Print View

Hi James

> inverted canister stove tutorial.
Well, there's this thread and article, and all the Winter Stoves articles. So what more do you want? Perhaps we can do something.

Cheers

Selecting a Canister Stove for Cold Weather Backpacking
Part I: Stove and Fuel Fundamentals
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/selecting_stoves_for_cold_weather_part_1.html

Selecting a Canister Stove for Cold Weather Backpacking
Part II: Commercially Available Canister Stove Systems
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/selecting_stoves_for_cold_weather_part_2.html

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_efficiency_p1.html

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_efficiency_p2.html

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/canister_stove_efficiency_p3.html

Lightweight Canister Stoves REVIEW SUMMARY and GEAR GUIDE OVERVIEW
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lightweight_canister_stoves_review_summary.html

James Klein
(jnklein21) - M

Locale: Southeast
ahh roger on 12/26/2010 13:49:46 MST Print View

You may have jumped the gun on assuming I hadn't researched this earlier...

I have been following this thread for quite awhile. And have read most of the other articles you referenced. I have even purchased a brunton stand to replicate the original MYOG stove in your article -- available time to come up with something nicer than the primus express spider stove (FYI I have also read that article) have kept me from proceding.

I had actually requested the spider for christmas -- didn't get it so was planning to purchase in the coming weeks... and then Stuart provides this update. This appears to definatly be the eloquent solutions I was looking for as far as MYO inverted cannister stoves go.

Anywho, thanks for consolidating all of those nice articles / threads and of course all of the quality info you have provided through the years re. canister stoves.

James

Edited to add "and of course..." at the end

Edited by jnklein21 on 12/26/2010 14:19:33 MST.

Yukio Yamakawa
(JSBJSB) - F

Locale: Tokyo,JAPAN
There are many people making MYOG gas stove in Japan. on 12/27/2010 10:34:26 MST Print View

There are many people making MYOG gas stove in Japan.

"SRS" he is one of them.and on blog.

http://pclv9161.blog84.fc2.com/blog-category-6.html

Photos of a named person.
Japanese is garbled and fear. However, you will see from the picture file.


Elementary years ago,in Australia, Tony has previously made a MYOG gas stove.
That was very shocking debut in Japan.
Japanese here and there and then to increase the people who own a gas stove.
I am also a very simple mechanism to YouTube MYOG has published a gas stove.
(Angel stove, @dutro76 on YouTube)

christopher witter
(cwitter) - MLife

Locale: Mid Atlantic
Copper Wire... on 02/13/2011 22:01:54 MST Print View

If you don't have the resources to make the parts as shown I had success using copper wire from some old electrical wire I had laying around. Something a little more flexible would have been easier to use, but I just went with what I had at my disposal. Worked well in the field. Stove with copper wire

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
Is no control at can end OK on 09/19/2011 05:04:08 MDT Print View

I found this similar Gelert stand, but it has no control at canister end:
is that OK?
Note the extra adaptor to allow use of the cheap male butane picnic narrow cannisters (shaped for gas mode).

Gelert stand and adaptor


EDIT: Rereading article, it seems might be dubious for liquid feed or at best wasteful (of 1 minutes gas), as liquid = much gas would remain in tube because must turn off at burner 1st, then disconnect: however I am puzzled by the articles suggestion to turn off at canister 1st so that liquid in tube is burnt off--- surely there is now no pressure driving it; but it obviously works.

Edited by ahbradley on 09/19/2011 09:57:13 MDT.

Kevin Beeden
(captain_paranoia) - F

Locale: UK
re: liquid feed on 09/19/2011 11:47:30 MDT Print View

> however I am puzzled by the articles suggestion to turn off at canister 1st so that liquid in tube is burnt off--- surely there is now no pressure driving it; but it obviously works.

There is still pressure driving it; the evaporating gas in the fuel line.

The point of using a liquid feed burner it to enable the lower boiling point propane to drive the propane/butane mix out of the cylinder as liquid (and have it evaporate in the pre-heat tube), largely preventing the fractional distillation/evaporation that can occur at low temperatures, which would result in the propane boiling off preferentially, leaving the higher boiling point butane behind, and thus having no gas pressure below 4C.

If there's some liquid propane/butane mix in the gas line, this will evaporate and reach the burner.

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
Valve at canister needed for liquid feed mode or all modes? on 09/21/2011 04:35:24 MDT Print View

Roger Caffin (to Stuart Robb)
"You are right - valving the liquid is very tricky. That's why mounting the whole stove on the Brunton stand has some merit: you get a valve at the gas feed. But it is extra weight.

Oh yes - you NEED the valve at the canister as well, as a safety on/off."

Does this apply to both liquid and gas feed modes or just liquid mode?

(Does unscrewing the cartridge not count as safety on-off?)

If a valve is needed for both modes, then Gelert stand shown is dubious: does anyone sell replacemment hoses with cannister valves?

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Valve at canister needed for liquid feed mode or all modes? on 09/21/2011 05:23:40 MDT Print View

A valve at the canister is not essential for eithe gas or liquid feed but as Roger said, it's a safety feature - if the fuel tube could rupture or detach from either end, then it would be nice to have a means to quickly shut off the gas.

BTW, using pure Butane in liquid feed mode gives little advantage over gas mode. The boiling point of pure Butane does not change (unlike a butane/propane mixture), so the only advantage of liquid feed in this case is the avoidance of evaporative cooling of the canister contents.

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
Valve at canister ....? on 09/21/2011 06:45:14 MDT Print View

But I wonder if turning the (fully on) cannister valve off is actually any quicker (possibly slower?) than unthreading/unclipping the cannister itself:

Is there anything inherently dangerous about disconnecting the cannister whilst stove is still lit (in an emergency only) as the cannister seal will activate.

Edit: I suppose liquid mode means more gas/liquid in tube, but the canister end should be colder, and if liquid mode cos cold weather.... so in emergency remove canister and run; should be safe enough? EDIT: DEFINITELY NOT -- see Roger Caffins
response: "Re: Valve at canister ....? on 09/26/2011 17:48:08 MDT" ...NO! NO NO NO!...

EDIT The following question is now irrelevant, see above
In normml use, for liquid mode when cold, with no remote valve, before turning off, perhaps you could uninvert the canister (back to gas mode), letting the liquid in tube burn off (1minute?), then turn off at stove end, and optionally unscrew cannister if packing up.

Edited by ahbradley on 09/27/2011 06:31:06 MDT.

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
In emergency: is disconnecting remote cannister acceptable cf using cannister side on/off valve on 09/22/2011 04:48:37 MDT Print View

I mis-titled my previous post which asks the above question.

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
In emergency: is disconnecting remote cannister acceptable cf using cannister side on/off valve on 09/26/2011 15:30:49 MDT Print View

Just `Bump" ing

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Valve at canister needed for liquid feed mode or all modes? on 09/26/2011 17:31:51 MDT Print View

Hi Alan

Sorry - I was overseas for 2 months.

> Does this apply to both liquid and gas feed modes or just liquid mode?
Liquid feed only.

> (Does unscrewing the cartridge not count as safety on-off?)
Yes, BUT ...
It is a lot faster to flick a valve than to unscrew a canister. Also, unscrewing the canister can, in some cases, release some gas from the canister half-way through. That could be a shade exciting.

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Copper Wire... on 09/26/2011 17:37:55 MDT Print View

Hi Christopher

Yeah, NEAT!
My only concern would be how well the copper wire contacts the brass tube: does it get loose over time. But with heavy copper wire, the cost of replacing the heat shunt is pretty close to zero anyhow. And if it works, who's complaining?

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Valve at canister ....? on 09/26/2011 17:48:08 MDT Print View

Hi Alan

> Is there anything inherently dangerous about disconnecting the cannister whilst stove
> is still lit (in an emergency only) as the cannister seal will activate.
> .... so in emergency remove canister and run; should be safe enough?
OH GOD NO! NO NO NO!

You CAN get liquid fuel leaking out of the connection while the canister is being unscrewed. Happens with some combinations of stove and canister, not all. But that's liquid fuel - it expands about 250 times into a gas.
Obviously you have never seen a BLEVE - a fire ball from spilt LPG. (BLEVE = Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosion) Think fire ball engulfing your head.

> perhaps you could uninvert the canister (back to gas mode), letting the liquid in
> tube burn off (1minute?), then turn off at stove end, and optionally unscrew
> cannister if packing up.
This is usually safe enough. A small amount of gas might escape, but if there are no flames anywhere nearby it is unlikely to be harmful.
Key to this is to unscrew the canister fairly fast, so the internal valve gets to seal off quickly.

Cheers

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
Can side valve: I understand why is required. on 09/27/2011 05:57:17 MDT Print View

"> is still lit (in an emergency only) as the cannister seal will activate.
> .... so in emergency remove canister and run; should be safe enough?
NO! NO NO NO!"

Thanks, I'm convinced, a can side valve seems a requirement!!

I wonder if a can side on/off only valve would be lighter as well as quicker to operate, or, in liquid mode, if stove has its own valve, do you only turn the can valve on partially .


It seems odd gelert will sell a remote stove adaptor without a can valve (I suppose they presume gas mode only: that the threaded canister is kept upright (and doesnt topple)).

(in liquid mode, if (someone else's) remote stove (with no can valve) was lit and in trouble before stove valve, eg hose leak, do they have any options other than running away?


"Obviously you have never seen a BLEVE "
No, but I do want to avoid one!! The tube on remote stoves always worried me, (I worried about hidden damage underneath the braid), so I just have a can top stove, hence I definitely wanted to know all the remote stove safe shut off methods before buying one.

Edited by ahbradley on 09/27/2011 12:54:19 MDT.

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
Now, probably easier and just as cheap to modify a cheap remote stove on 09/28/2011 07:12:06 MDT Print View

Now that low cost remote stoves are available at, for example, 235g (GoSystems TriSpi), it is probably just as cheap to modifiy these, especially with the copper wire idea.

Did the copper wire get used to restrict the tube as well?

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Now, probably easier and just as cheap to modify a cheap remote stove on 09/28/2011 09:01:48 MDT Print View

You could, altho' that stove
a) does not have a convenient brass tube to mount a heat conductor on, and
b) the valve at the canister is not designed for the fine control of liquid, and
c) is not particularly light

You'd be better buying a Primus Express Spider @ 198g which already has a pre-heat tube, altho' the control knob is a bit inconvenient for inverted canister use.

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: remote canister Gnat.construction on 12/02/2011 03:12:44 MST Print View

Alan Bradley wrote
>>> How did you connect the Gnat to the hose?
The Gnat screws onto the centre of the stand (and unscrews for packing). I made this centre piece from a TNC connector which has the requsite thread. The vapouriser tube is brazed in this and the fuel tube is clamped onto the other end.

>>> Is the cannister connector (shown in other threads) a Roger Caffin special?
No, I made that also.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: remote canister Gnat.construction on 12/02/2011 20:14:20 MST Print View

Stuart,

If I may ask, what is a TNC connector?

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: remote canister Gnat.construction on 12/02/2011 20:24:20 MST Print View

In some circles, a TNC connector is the threaded equivalent of a BNC connector.

I thought you would never ask.

--B.G.--

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Re: Re: remote canister Gnat.construction on 12/03/2011 06:55:37 MST Print View

It's a type of electrical connector sometimes used for high frequency signals.
TNC = Threaded Neill-Concelman connector, similar to
BNC = Bayonet Neill-Concelman connector.
Strictly speaking, I used a RP-TNC, where RP = Reverse Polarity.

RP_TNC

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: remote canister Gnat.construction on 12/03/2011 11:14:06 MST Print View

Interesting. I suppose the smaller diameter end is used as a hose barb and the other end as the threaded connector (after being gutted), yes?

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Can side valve: I understand why is required. on 12/03/2011 12:54:26 MST Print View

Hi Alan

Sorry - I missed this.

> It seems odd gelert will sell a remote stove adaptor without a can valve
As to why they only have one valve on a remote canister stove - COST.

> I worried about hidden damage underneath the braid
We have recently seen cheap Chinese stoves with really unreliable hoses, so that can be a concern. But the 'good' stoves usually have a far better plastic (something like PFA) inside the braid which very rarely suffers any damage.

Cheers

Stuart R
(Scunnered) - F

Locale: Scotland
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: remote canister Gnat.construction on 12/03/2011 13:15:19 MST Print View

Jim - the vapouriser tube is brazed into the narrow diameter end, the nut on the threaded middle section holds the legs and the stove screws onto the threaded end.

Alan Bradley
(ahbradley)
Gelert: I had thought their worry of being sued might override cost savings. on 12/04/2011 12:30:16 MST Print View

>> It seems odd gelert will sell a remote stove adaptor without a can valve
Roger Caffin responded "As to why they only have one valve on a remote canister stove - COST."

I had thought they(gelert) might worry about being sued:
if the hose/stove goes wrong and the user has no canister side valve to stop gas flow, they might try to disconnect the canister which, as you explained earlier, might not go so well due to a possible small amount liquid gas escaping before cannister seals.

I don't think its made anymore.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: remote canister Gnat.construction on 12/06/2011 23:50:51 MST Print View

Jim - the vapouriser tube is brazed into the narrow diameter end, the nut on the threaded middle section holds the legs and the stove screws onto the threaded end.
Nice. Very nice. Thank you.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Gelert: I had thought their worry of being sued might override cost savings. on 12/06/2011 23:57:19 MST Print View

I had thought they(gelert) might worry about being sued:
Gelert has (from what I've read) had to pull a couple of items off of the market. One was an adapter that would connect a 100% butane canister with a bayonet connector to a stove with a standard threaded connector. Apparently there were some quality control issues. They had a stainless steel disk shape arrangement on one end and a threaded brass connector on the other. This type is still available from China. NOT recommended.

The Kovea connectors that accomplish the same thing are a good product, but they have a connector that is completely different and their's is secure.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Sean Rhoades
(kingpin)

Locale: WV
Re: Re: Gelert: I had thought their worry of being sued might override cost savings. on 12/07/2011 19:29:36 MST Print View

I actually purchased one of the Chinese versions of this stand without the can side valve. It was so poorly made, I had to use a heat shunt for it to work with the can right side up. Of course the Chinese vendor sent me another one, this one modeled after the Brunton stand with the valve. The new one works beautifully. The old one has since been gutted and used for parts.

The threads used on the fittings from the braided line to the stand itself are what I have been trying to figure out lately in my thread about MYOG stove. Anyone that messed with those Brunton stands know what those threads were. Shot in the dark, I know, but I'm still hard up to find out these threads.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Gelert: I had thought their worry of being sued might override cost savings. on 12/07/2011 23:06:42 MST Print View

Hi Sean

Buy a good vernier caliper and a good metric thread gauge. Might as well buy a good imperial thread gauge as well. These are tools which last 'for ever'. Measurement solves an awful lot of problems.

Cheers

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Thread Gauge for Stove Mods on 12/09/2011 12:33:52 MST Print View

Sean,

I think Roger's advice is good (typically it is). You'll save yourself a lot of headache if you just get the proper tool. Guessing or just going by what someone remembers is a great way to guarantee parts that don't mesh with one another.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

Sean Rhoades
(kingpin)

Locale: WV
Re: Re: Re: Re: Gelert: I had thought their worry of being sued might override cost savings. on 12/10/2011 17:22:47 MST Print View

Good solid advice. Cash is low for the time being though. So when I'm able, I'd like to purchase those guages.

Edit: A vernier caliper is just a regular old caliper for measuring right?

Edited by kingpin on 12/10/2011 18:46:45 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gelert: I had thought their worry of being sued might override cost savings. on 12/11/2011 02:50:43 MST Print View

Yes. It helps you tell whether the thing is imperial or metric - usually. Actually, most threads are undersize on the oD, so some guessing may be required. But the thread gauges are invaluable if you don't have a good collection of KNOWN nuts and bolts.

The probability of the Brunton being imperial is LOW.

Cheers

Sean Rhoades
(kingpin)

Locale: WV
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gelert: I had thought their worry of being sued might override cost savings. on 12/11/2011 14:27:33 MST Print View

Well I've got calipers now, and fairly certain I can borrow the thread pitch guage from a friend. I'll be sure to post my findings once I have both instruments. Thanks for all the help from the BPL community,

Roger and Jim,

Thanks for your patience with all my questions.

Hikin' Jim
(hikin_jim) - MLife

Locale: Los Angeles, CA, USA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Gelert: I had thought their worry of being sued might override cost savings. on 12/11/2011 22:25:14 MST Print View

Well, I think Roger's a bit more help than I am on this type of project, but for whatever I've had to offer you're welcome.

I have to say that my involvement here on BPL has upped my understanding of stoves by at least a power of ten. Lately, it's been alcohol stove design, but basically any kind of backpacking type stove you can think of will have been tried by someone here on BPL.

HJ
Adventures in Stoving

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Cheap and free thread gauges on 12/12/2011 11:18:41 MST Print View

Cheap: Home Depot (and most any hardware store) sells a plastic thread gauge with all the metric and English threads marked / incised onto a plastic sheet, about 9"x6". $5 maybe.

Free: Go to Home Depot and use the gauge there, or use the better metal studs and nuts they have on display for exactly that reason: So people can determine which thread they have.

Note that machine threads are constant diameter while pipe threads are tapered. And the threads on compression fittings don't match with machine threads or with pipe threads and they vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. And compression fitting threads differ from flare nut threads. Sigh.