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Backpacking Light @ Philmont
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Phil Barton
(flyfast) - MLife

Locale: Oklahoma
Re: Light Bear Ropes on 05/15/2008 17:33:30 MDT Print View

Does anyone know a good online source for Amsteel rope? Thanks

Douglas Prosser
(daprosser) - MLife

Locale: Camarillo, California (SCAL)
Re: Re: Light Bear Ropes on 05/15/2008 20:41:57 MDT Print View

The Sampson Company has a dealer locator.
http://www.samsonrope.com/index.cfm?page=23

This is the specs on the Amsteel-Blue rope.
http://www.samsonrope.com/index.cfm?rope=192

You can see the bear rope (AirCore Pro URSA Dyneema Bear Bag Hanging Rope) on this site is as strong (1,400lbs.) and same size (2.5mm)but runs a min of $0.30/ft depending on membership status. When I asked the customer service they would have to await an order to come in & they were willing to give me 100 ft lengths.:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/aircore_pro_ursa_bear_bag_hanging_rope.html

When I searched Google shopping the lowest price I found was $0.58/ft for Amsteel-Blue 7/16 (2.5mm)
http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/producte/10001/-1/10001/341594?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=341594

Maybe someone can find it cheaper or maybe perhaps Ryan Jordan can arrange a special on BPL for "Philmont Bear Ropes" at a nice price for BSA Troops. How about it Ryan?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Light Bear Ropes on 05/15/2008 21:11:14 MDT Print View

Douglas,

The diameter of the 7/16 Amsteel-Blue is 11.1125 mm.

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: Light Bear Ropes on 05/15/2008 21:22:04 MDT Print View

Douglas,

Maybe you meant 7/64 inch? (is 2.5 mm).

$0.22/ft here http://www.go2marine.com/product.do?no=38345F&WT.mc_id=gb1

Douglas Prosser
(daprosser) - MLife

Locale: Camarillo, California (SCAL)
Re: Re: Light Bear Ropes on 05/15/2008 21:29:50 MDT Print View

How embarrassing. :-))

Yes. 7/64 in (2.5mm)

This is what I get for doing this in between work emails. You can guess which I like better.

Mike Barney
(eaglemb) - F

Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
Sub. Frisbee for strainer bags.... on 05/15/2008 22:30:05 MDT Print View

Doug,
thanks for the pointer on the painter strainer bags. I think we'll give that a try I have to believe that's actually a better solution than 1/4" holes.

Like you guys, we're not using any of their reusable gear (food and tablets excepted).

Mike

Trek 16 / 806-H4

Mike Barney
(eaglemb) - F

Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
Lighter Bear Ropes ==> Barney Bagging on 05/15/2008 22:40:41 MDT Print View

We set up a 3/8" steel cable at 17' to practice and try to improve on the setup. One problem is anytime you have a rope going over the multi-stranded cable, most every rope, cord and even coated cables encountered significant friction as it rubbed on the many strands. We've been working on preventing rope breaks, which can really complicate the problem (knots going over cable can be a literal show stopper)

We've been refining a highly modified carabiner "Barney Bag"(tm) approach which has several advantages:

No / very low rope wear
2:1 Mechanical advantage
Very low friction at rope contact points.
1 Scout is consistently able to lift 100 lbs of food / gear by himself
Oops bag has 2:1 mechanical advantage and can be rigged to not have to be tied off
Easy connect / disconnect
Weight is about 1/4 that of Philmont ropes.

On the down side, some practice is required. About 5 minutes will do, but you do have to practice.

We're working to get to our final rev #5 before Philmont. Will try to get some pictures. The general concensus is it's much easier to use.

On the flip side, does anyone see a market for something like this, or is the market too small for cable based bear bagging?

Regards,
MikeB

Edited by eaglemb on 05/15/2008 22:59:52 MDT.

Paul Mergens
(mergens) - F

Locale: New England
Lighter Bear Ropes on 05/16/2008 09:45:34 MDT Print View

Mike

I like the idea of increasing the mechanical advantage using a carabiner/pully arrangement. Less tension on the rope and easier for the Scouts to manage. I would be interested in seeing that bear bag/oops bag setup. Thanks

Paul

Phil Barton
(flyfast) - MLife

Locale: Oklahoma
Bear bagging on 05/16/2008 21:20:09 MDT Print View

Doug, you've started me looking at options to replace the Philmont ropes and bear bags. That was to be the only Philmont provided gear we would use.

What are you using to replace the mesh/burlap bags provided by Philmont?

Thanks

Mike Barney
(eaglemb) - F

Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
Re: Lighter Bear Ropes on 05/16/2008 22:16:46 MDT Print View

Paul, I'll get some pictures out shortly with a description. We're also using very lightweight bags which we'll also show pictures of.

Edited by eaglemb on 05/16/2008 22:18:15 MDT.

Steve O
(HechoEnDetroit) - F

Locale: South Kak
Re: Bear Bagging on 05/16/2008 22:55:18 MDT Print View

RJ reviews bear bagging in this article: http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/bear_bag_hanging_technique.html

Phil Barton
(flyfast) - MLife

Locale: Oklahoma
Re: Bear Bagging on 05/17/2008 08:21:04 MDT Print View

Steve, the bear bagging at Philmont is a different class of problem. Ryan's techniques work very well for hanging your individual food bag. At Philmont with a crew of 12 the food bags can be about 100 pounds after resupply. Part of Philmont's bear protection protocol is that hikers will also put smellalbles in bear bags. Smellables include food, water bottles used with drink mix, sunscreen, toothpaste, etc.)

Because most campsites at Philmont are used regularly cables have been suspended in the range of 15'-20' above ground. Philmont provides each crew with several pounds of rope (150' about 4 pounds) and 2 large woven nylon bags (about 2-4 pounds).

It's a fun challenge to look for ingenious gear and techniques to reduce weight. It sounds like Mike has even found a way to provide a mechanical advantage for hoisting such a huge load.

Mike Barney
(eaglemb) - F

Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
Paul M, PM me on 05/17/2008 23:09:04 MDT Print View

Paul M, PM me

Rich Bowman
(rbowman) - F

Locale: Houston
Re: Re: Lighter Bear Ropes on 05/18/2008 12:05:46 MDT Print View

For what it's worth . . . I purchased 600 ft of the 7/64 Amsteel blue from Redden Marine http://www.reddenmarine.com/site/index.cfm earlier this year for $0.13/foot plus shipping. It's not shown on their website now, but it's probably worth a phone call.
-Rich
628O

Mike Barney
(eaglemb) - F

Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
Cable based Improved Bear Bagging on 05/18/2008 20:56:52 MDT Print View

I was able to get some pictures posted and a description of lighter weight bear bag approach.
You can see it here.

http://www.mikebarney.net//BarneyBag.html


I would appreciate any feedback you have.

Regards,
MikeB

Douglas Prosser
(daprosser) - MLife

Locale: Camarillo, California (SCAL)
Re: Cable based Improved Bear Bagging on 05/18/2008 22:04:47 MDT Print View

This discription at first was complicated but the more I looked at it, this seems to be a really sweet way to hang the bear bags with little effort.

There were a few times in the past I did not have the upper body strength to lift the bear bags, especially with 5 day load-out of food but this arrangement with 2:1 advantage may be just the ticket.

Are you getting ready to sell the whole set-up for Philmont? From all the attention my articles have gotten I wager you have a protentially large market with Scouts. Perhaps you can approach Ryan about carrying it.

To really understand this I would have to practice for a few times like you recommended. But I certainly would be interested in taking a set-up to Philmont this year to give it a try. Any chance Mike...

Mike Barney
(eaglemb) - F

Locale: AZ, the Great Southwest!
Bear Bag Practice Session this Saturday on 05/18/2008 23:48:19 MDT Print View

Hi Doug,
feel free to drop by Scottsdale this coming weekend (hey it's not that far from CA). I have a cable setup @ 17 feet to practice with. Same as was in the photos'

It seems to take the Scouts 2 times throwing the bag to get it down. Adults seem to get it in 1....

Anyone else is also invited. PM me for directions.

Mike

paul buzzard
(troop208) - F
rope on 05/23/2008 10:03:38 MDT Print View

If you bring rope, do you get grief over it? We have nice poly rope, higher strength than 1/4 nylon, lighter, and proper lengths (100')min, two ropes, and a pulley system already. Will we be able to substitute this, or have to argue our way to not being able to use it, worst case. We have used on canoe trips with very heavy food packs no problems in the lift end.

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
Re: rope on 05/23/2008 10:31:36 MDT Print View

If you bring rope, do you get grief over it?

We brought a combo of nylon rope and mule tape in 2007. Got no grief as long as we used their approach of hanging from two separately tied ropes. Although I sometimes wonder if that sort of experience might vary depending on who you get as a ranger ... or staff at staffed camps (some camps did nightly bear bag inspections)

Scott Bentz
(scottbentz) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Turkey Bags on 05/23/2008 10:40:10 MDT Print View

We plan on cooking in some sort of bag this year. My question is how large of a bag you use. Are you putting the whole crews food in one bag (12 meals) or are you splitting this up in some way say 2, 4, 6 kids?

Also, the "frisbee" method is what? I understand we will be straining and then putting leftovers or chunks of food in a cathole. It makes sense to take some sort of mesh, but I don't get the Philmont frisbee method.

Thanks,

Scott