Here's the deal...I am searching for a new pot to complete my set-up. I am on a tight budget after purchasing quite a bit of other stuff.

I have settled on the Snow Peak 900. But the problem is aluminum or titanium. 3 more ounces for 25 extra dollars. I can get the aluminum for 20.

Will the aluminum be strong enough? I understand the weight difference, but my only concern is strength for those few ounces at this point.

What are everyone's thoughts? I can wait until I have the cash to fork out (no pun intended) the extra money for the titanium.

I'm sure you will get a number of "scientific" responses to this question, but it may come down to price, weight and personal preference. I have a variety of titanium pots (yes, I admit it, too many). I have one aluminum pot, the Antigravity 3-cup. As for what I carry the most, it's the AGG aluminum pot and my matched Caldera Cone. I've had no problems with lack of strength. Look carefully at the titanium pots - some are so thin you have to be careful not to damage them while others (MSR Kettle, Snowpeak Mini-Solo)seem rather strong. I've been told aluminum distributes heat better than titanium but have not tried to confirm this. Another factor, which would you rather lose? Keep watching, you'll get many good responses to this question.

Aluminum is plenty strong, unless you step on the pot. The only reason I have a Ti pot (Evernew 0.9 Liter) is:

a) It has a wide base which works very well with my homemade red bull alcohol stove.

b) It has built in handles. You won't appreciate this that much until you have a pot without handles and forget the pot lifter.

Might I suggest that, if you're looking at Aluminum, GSI Outdoors is probably a better manufacturer than Snow Peak? SP doesn't even do HA (Hard Anodizing) of their Aluminum...

Seriously, paying for the Snow Peak name on an aluminum pot simply doesn't make a lick of sense to me. Many people are fans of the IMUSA pots (Non HA) that you can snag at hispanic stores as well... even lighter and rumor has it plenty durable.

Other than GSI, if you want HA (which, if you're going to spend more than the IMUSA you really do) you can also look at the pots that Antigravity Gear or Brasslite sells (both sell HA pots).

PS - Please note I am a huge fan of Ti... but if I were budget constrained I'd definitely by HA as it give you a better 'bang for the buck' in terms of lightweight... esp if you're only using alcohol or esbit... whereas Ti can be passed on to your grandkid (at least if you're not buying the craziest thinness ones)

Edited by jdmitch on 04/22/2008 13:52:36 MDT.

Choose whichever is lighter...neither pot is going to withstand a hard blow. I wouldn't pay extra for more weight (if I understand correctly), that is against everything I believe in. :)

Chris,

I have used the same aluminum pot for the last 36 years! Believe me, it has seen some rough use, but has held up fine. I picked it up at REI before I could even spell titanium, let alone new what it was. That said I now have and use some Ti pots, but I keep coming back to the aluminum.

Happy Trails,

-Mark

Definitely go with aluminium.

Anyone have experience dry-baking in aluminum?

I'm considering Ti for that specific option - it won't melt.

Thanks for the help everyone.

Slip down to your local thrift store and snag an aluminium cake baking tin. It should be somewhere between 50 cents and a dollar.

It probably won't be HA, and if you can, avoid the non stick, teflon coated variety. If you're really lucky, you may get one of the old orange anodised versions, but they tend to sell fast.

The only problem with using this as an introduction to properly lightweight aluminium pots is that you may find yourself still using it in five or even 15 years time. They're tough enough.

Rod

"Anyone have experience dry-baking in aluminum?

I'm considering Ti for that specific option - it won't melt."

As long as you're not using a blow-torch of a stove (aka canister stove), there are a few people who have expressed success in this. Notable is Tinny's dry-baking with rocks and a KMart Grease Pot.

However, you're right, you're not going to be able to melt Ti in the field... period.

Edited by jdmitch on 04/23/2008 07:27:07 MDT.

I have had Ti...and I went back to HAA. Why? It costs less and works just fine. I still have for instance Ti cups that I can use on a stove, but overall, most of my pans/pots are HAA.
The cost is where you save - a Ti pot can be $50-100. A HAA one can be bought from say $15 to 50, depending on styles and what comes with it.
In the end I still use my simple HAA tea kettle that cost me $17 the most!

“Choose whichever is lighter”

I’ve used the AGG pot several times:
3.8oz w/ lid plus 1.2oz handle = 5.0oz

I’ve used the Titan Kettle several times
4.2oz with handle

Both have about the same volume. Both boil 2c of h2o in 5.5 minutes w/ my alcy stove (mechanic mike style).

Here’s what I appreciate about the Titan Kettle:
1. lid stays on tighter. Thus I do not need a stuff sack for my kitchen/stove items when I toss it in the backpack.
2. Integrated handle; one less thing to worry about/find. This requires less coordination when lifting pot off flame and pouring into hot-chocolate cup.
3. since it’s slightly taller, I can store a taller wind screen in the pot (more efficiency)
4. and it is slightly lighter than the AGG setup.

But here’s what I like about the AGG pot:
1. When my friends need a pot, this is what I loan out.
2. Wider pot let’s me use my white box stove.

-Barry

Edited by BarryP on 04/23/2008 13:11:07 MDT.

Aluminium conducts heat better than titanium. Therefore uses less fuel, but also burns your lips if you use it as a drinking vessel....
(I've compared alu & titanium vessels on different stoves: this is the one constant)
If I'm taking one all purpose pot it's titanium, so I can use it as a mug. If I can take several, I'll use aluminium for cooking: more efficient use of fuel, better heat spread for frying.
Hope that helps.

"Aluminium conducts heat better than titanium. Therefore uses less fuel"
That is only true if the thickness of the two pots is the same. Usually, however, Ti pots are thinner so the difference is minimised or reversed. With the extra thin walls of the Tibetan/FireLight pots your water will boil faster than in most aluminium pots.
I wouldn't use Ti for cooking, but is great for boiling (and maybe dry baking)
Any coated pot should not be used to dry bake with . The coating deteriorates rapidly if exposed to heat without some moisture on the base (food or liquids).
This applies to those Teflon coated pots some use at home.
Franco

"That is only true if the thickness of the two pots is the same. Usually, however, Ti pots are thinner so the difference is minimised or reversed. With the extra thin walls of the Tibetan/FireLight pots your water will boil faster than in most aluminium pots."

Hummm.....well....probably not. The coefficient of thermal conductivity for titanium is 21.9W/m per degree C.....and aluminum is 237W/meter per degree Centigrade. Soooo....assuming a similar surface area and temperature differential, Fourier's Law shows the aluminum pot would need to be about 11 times thicker to have the same resistance as the titanium pot.....and I suspect that "most aluminum pots" are not 11 times thicker. Could be wrong.....but I doubt it. (assume Roger will check my math! :) In general, I think it is safe to assume that aluminum will transmit the stove's heat to your water better.

Now, the argument that should be made is the reverse of the one being made here.....not how quickly does it heat up....because aluminum wins that.....but how quickly does aluminum cool off your food and what are the costs there? In other words, if the real advantage of aluminum is that it transmits heat quickly.....then it will just as quickly transmit the heat OUT of your pot. (this is why it burns your lips....it is transmitting heat out quickly to your lips) So, the cost of cozys should be factored into the weight savings of the aluminum pot.

Rand

"...not how quickly does it heat up....because aluminum wins that.....but how quickly does aluminum cool off your food..."

Boy do I love good science, and the ability to apply it in all directions.

I knew that $$$ Ti pot could be justified by more than weight and bling.

Thank you Rand.

Edited by greg23 on 05/31/2009 19:07:58 MDT.

My testing on Titanium vs Aluminum vs Stainless steel pots has shown that Titanium is the best performer followed by Stainless steel and Aluminum the worst but basically there very little difference between the three.

My thoughts are that there is a bit more into pot efficiency than material conductivity and thickness as thermal conductivity is usually negated by the thinness of backpacking pot materials, things like emissivity of the pot material is also an important factor on pot performance.

But the most important factor on pot performance is how high the flame setting your stove burner is set too.

Tony

"Buy what you want" has seldom been more true than when selecting cookpots, in so far as the effect the material has on how much fuel you'll use. I've tried and tried to demonstrate that aluminum or titanium has an advantage and cannot verify a measurable difference. I've gone so far as to compare similarly shaped titanium and aluminum pots where the aluminum pot had a heat exchanger base, and still could not discern a difference in the amount of fuel it takes to bring water to boil. Of course there's a difference, however small, but I'm forced to conclude that it simply doesn't comprise a meaningful factor when compared to the more important variables, i.e., burner and windscreen design. Put another way, pot dimensions and lid design have an effect on efficiency, pot material doesn't.

And don't get me started on painting the things black :-)

My experience has been that aluminum is somewhat better for "cooking" than titanium because the heat spreads evenly across the pot bottom, reducing hot spots and burning. This makes both browning and simmering easier, as well as cleanup. For boiling water there's not a shred of difference. Ti pots and cups are easier to handle and drink out of because the sides and rims stay relatively cool while aluminum cookware heats evenly and fully, i.e., hot! Finally, I've never dented a Ti pot and pretty much all my Al pots have acquired dents, bends and the like. Ti's strength is quite remarkable, especially considering how thin they make the cookware. While some aluminum alloys are quite a bit stronger than others, they all dent and distort.

Cheers,

Rick

Edited by halfturbo on 05/31/2009 23:57:38 MDT.

Get whichever you can afford. The weight difference is not significant.

Like Mark, I have a Sigg Tourist nesting set that is probably older than you. :)

I also have two Gaz Globetrotters, which were awesome in their day. Still have a 1/2 dozen of the obsolete cannisters.

I am sure Mark and Roger C are familar with the Globetrotters.

I think Rick summarised it nicely, and i agree with each of these points:

1) pot dimensions and lid design have an effect on efficiency, pot material doesn't.

2) For boiling water there's not a shred of difference.

3) Ti pots and cups are easier to handle and drink out of because the sides and rims stay relatively cool while aluminum cookware heats evenly and fully, i.e., hot!

4) I've never dented a Ti pot and pretty much all my Al pots have acquired dents, bends and the like

I will comment on the conductivity bit to clarify why it does not matter. When the flame temperature under the pot is maybe 1,500 C and the water temperature is maybe 50 C, then whether the temperature gradient across the pot base is 0.5 C or 5 C really does not matter a hoot.

Granted, HAA is cheaper though!

Cheers
PS: I still have an aluminium billy from Switzerland, made around 1950. It still works just fine. >1 mm wall thickness though!

OK, I'm probably going to look like a dunce here, but I'd rather get some good facts rather than to operate on assumptions.

TO THAT END: My understanding is that aluminum pots should be HA so that the aluminum won't get into your food. Am I wacko on that point?

Second question: Just how big is the risk if one uses non HA aluminum cookware? I'm mostly using Ti nowadays, but I still have one large (~2L) non-HA aluminum billy. It's great for snowshoe backpacks, because I can fit a lot of snow in there at a time. My assumption is that if I'm only using it in "one season" (winter) mode, that the risk of negative effects from the Al is low. Is this a reasonable assumption (or has my mind been so devastated by Al that I'm not thinking straight)?

Edited by hikin_jim on 06/01/2009 22:20:24 MDT.

There has been some research in this matter.It sounds like it is inconclusive but I have stopped using aluminum cookware at home and while camping.

Here is just one of many links you can look up for yourself. I'm not saying that it does cause it but I never liked aluminum even before I heard of this issue.

http://www.workingcaregiver.com/articles/alzheimers/aluminumandalzheimers

Don't forget that Titanium cook wear is actually an aluminum - titanium blend. Ti pots are not 100% Ti- keep that in mind if you want to avoid aluminum.

I'm screwed now. I can't remember what I was about to type.Oh yah, how much aluminum is in the bpl pots sold here on bpl?Roger?

Edited by Joshua on 06/01/2009 23:35:45 MDT.

> Don't forget that Titanium cook wear is actually an aluminum - titanium blend. Ti pots are not 100% Ti- keep that in mind if you want to avoid aluminum.

Yes, but don't Ti pots self anodize with use? At least that's what I've heard.

> My understanding is that aluminum pots should be HA so that the aluminum won't get into your food.
Nah, it's just easier to clean HAA.

Risk? ZERO.
The whole aluminium/Alzheimers things was a great beat-up. Check with Snopes or an Alzheimers Ass'n. The source was an UN-refereed MSc thesis in which the author found aluminium on brain plaques and claimed that it caused Alzheimers. It turned out that the sample preparation procedure used by the author PUT the aluminium there.

Aluminium is one of the most common elements on the planet. You get vast amounts in your ordinary everyday food, and excrete it out. You use it in your anti-perspirants, and other cosmetics. It is used to clarify your drinking water. We have evolved with it for millions of years.

But there are always journos and freaks who love a scandal.

Cheers

I used to eat aluminium pots.
I can't remember how many times this has been raised on BPL. There again, I have trouble remembering most things...

> Risk? ZERO.
The whole aluminium/Alzheimers things was a great beat-up.

Roger, I thank you. I was always a little hesitant with my old non-HA aluminum cookware, wondering about Al exposure even though I figured my exposure rate was fairly low. Now, I can get my dad's old vintage Al cooking gear off the shelf and use it once in a while. :)

Acidic foods cooked in non-anodized aluminum pots can pick up quite a bit of aluminum, especially if you store it in the pot overnight. It then has an unpleasant 'metallic' taste. Mostly, aluminum pots acquire a layer of aluminum oxide which is pretty inert.

The whole alzheimer's story turned out to be incorrect.

I love my Titanium mugs,pots, and wouldn't even think of going back to Alum.

The OP mentions that he/she is operating under an extremely tight budget. I am/was in the same situation and got myself some cheap AL Snow Peak pots that were on sale (900 and 1400). I love them because I don't know any any better... the idea of shelling out $35-45 for a mug and even more for a pot is just not going to happen for me personally in the next few months.

Also I think you can do better than the $20 you mentioned for the SP 900 AL pot... should be little below $15 on sale

Given the choice of packing my HA Trek Kettle or MSR Titan, I take the Titan, noticeable weight difference and a growing preference for titanium being the main reason.

I'd save for the Ti, I find the Snow Peak and MSR Ti pots to be really good.

An economic way of getting Ti cookware is to buy the Snow Peak Ti plate and bowl, which double as cookware really well, my ultralight, minimalist kit is the Snow Peak Ti plate, bowl and 450 single wall mug, which work for cooking and water boiling.

The msr Steel alpine bowl weighs less than many same sized ti kits and costs 8 bucks. Msr alpine bowl 3.6 ounces and .8 liters vs titan kettle 4.2 ounces .85 liters save 40 bucks adn get a lighter kit. Ali

Deleted.

Michael, please remember that we have minors reading these channels.

Roger Caffin
Online Community Monitor
Backpacking Light

PS: Ali - :-)

Edited by rcaffin on 06/02/2009 16:29:31 MDT.

Ok Roger, before I get grounded I had nothing to do with this. :( Ali

For cheap and light pots for boiling water, the IMUSA mugs and grease pot are a couple dollars:
https://www.end2endtrailsupply.com/Imusa_Mugs.html
80mm mug 1.8 oz $2.50
100 mm mug 2.4 oz $3.50
120 mm mug 3.4 oz $4.50.
(no lids, use thin aluminum).
He has the equivalent of the walmart grease pot, but I prefer the IMUSA mugs.
All of these are suitable for boiling water. If you're doing any real cooking, a real pan is better.

everything i've read says it's undecided whether aluminium is a factor or not: the connection has neither been established to be valid nor invalid

regardless, like a lot of other naturally occurring materials, aluminum in certain quantities can be no problem and above a certain point can be a problem

i had a series of thorough tests done a couple years ago & aluminium was among a few things that tested above the normal range, so i'm trying to avoid extra intake as much as possible (aluminium, mercury, nickel, strontium and a couple others i forget now were elevated - calcium & magnesium showed chronically low)

i don't worry about cooking in aluminium every now & again, but for my primary pot, i go with titanium, partly because of the reduced exposure to aluminium

Quote:
"Ok Roger, before I get grounded I had nothing to do with this. :( Ali"

Ali,
This reply was not intended for you, (read back a few posts)

Sorry

Edited by mfog1 on 06/02/2009 15:19:46 MDT.

Micheal, I know it wasnt. I was just teasing Roger. Ali

"No need for name calling, ... "

Absolutely hilarious.
Or very, very sad.

-------
True, but let's not make it worse.
Roger Caffin
Online Community Monitor
Backpacking Light

Edited by rcaffin on 06/02/2009 16:32:36 MDT.

Wow, I guess people are offended by that age old saying we have here in the States ...

"It's the Economy Stupid" etcetera?

Sorry.. it was not my intention to offend

Edited by piemel on 06/02/2009 16:04:06 MDT.

I think the jury is still out on this one.

A quick search through google scholar for recent articles turns up a few (although I was just looking at abstracts of course) that are claiming a possible link.

here's an example:
"High consumption of aluminum from drinking water may be a risk factor for Alzheimer's disease." 2009
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/169/4/489

Chris, you mentioned that you might be leaning towards an AGG pot...good choice as the wide base allows it to work effeciently with Esbit. Anyhow, I'd like to share a discovery I made last year while cleaning out my gear locker and came across my decades old BS of A mess kit: the pot is the same as AGG's except that it has a bail (handle) and is unanodized. I bet you could pick up a used mess kit at a Good Will for a buck or two and have a pan, bowl, & cup in addition to the pot!

The bail on the pot is really a plus. I did my level best to accomodate the AGG pot's lack of a handle and use my bandana to lift it off the burner and learned that it's a terrible hassle. That means you'll have to use a pot lifter which more often than not will weigh more than the bail. Happy trails!

I used the $15, 2 oz Snowpeak Ti bowl w/ foi lid for the 1st 900 miles or so of my ongoing AT thru-hike and it worked great until I wanted something bigger (thru-hiker apetite). I moved to the $10 open country 2 qt aluminum stock pot which was 5.5 ounces after removing the bail and replacing the lid with foil. I'm now moving back to my old trusty 1L SS pot from the snowpeak solo kit ($15 or so) which weighs 5 oz w/ foil lid. There are very affordable options for all materials that all weigh very little. In the future, I will resume using the Ti bowl when I don't need to fix anything larger than a lipton side to keep satisfied. Good luck

I know it isn't aluminum or titanium (It's steel!)

But...

-It's light - 3.6 oz
-It has a wide bottom
-Can hold about a liter (barely)
-It's tough as beans

And

It's cheap : $6.95



Been using mine for the last 6 years with much success!

I did my level best to accomodate the AGG pot's lack of a handle and use my bandana to lift it off the burner and learned that it's a terrible hassle.

The best thing to do is drill a small hole on either side of the pot near the top. Then attach a piece of wire loop between them like an upside down U. Weighs very little (much lighter than a pot lifter) and allows you to pick up the pot easily.

Edited by ashleyb on 06/16/2009 02:50:26 MDT.

“The best thing to do is drill a small hole on either side of the pot near the top. Then attach a piece of wire loop between them like an upside down U. Weighs very little (much lighter than a pot lifter) and allows you to pick up the pot easily.”

I’m just wondering how you keep the boiling water balanced when the pot is lifted? We’ve had so many scouts spill their water because they use the mess kit pot which also has a bailing wire handle.

-Barry

"I’m just wondering how you keep the boiling water balanced when the pot is lifted?"

Gravity?

I think he means when you pour it out you dork.

“Gravity?”

That’s the problem. These bailing handles are tipsy; the pot easily tips one way or the other--- especially when you don’t want it to!

I've always used a dishrag as my potholder because it's not at as light weight as a bandana and can be much smaller, and seconds as a dishwasher, so i don't have to get food particles on a bandana or pack towel

I'm ALMOST certain that this is only a problem on short wide pots, but is fine on narrow deep ones. The ratio will be something like the height needs to be more than half the width. Of course I'm just speculating here, and I haven't finished my first coffee of the day. I do KNOW that tall narrow pots are very stable with a bail handle.