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Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Aluminum "Flat Fold" Cook Pot on 09/18/2005 23:42:36 MDT Print View

After writting about folding Titanium and making a "Flat Fold" cook pot I had a look at the materials I have on hand. At one time BMW was selling some Titanium Foil but it cost a lot and I could never think of a use for it. It isn't listed for sale anymore or I might gets some and try it for this.

I first tried some heavy duty Aluminum Foil. I used it double but it wasn't strong enough to support itself with water in it. I have some thin Brass Sheet but it wasn't wide enough for the Orikaso bowl pattern I made. I had an Aluminum pan liner or what ever they are called like some use for a windscreen. It also was to small for the Orikaso pattern. I decided to make a smaller pattern. The first "downsize" was to small. The second was used with the Aluminum pan liner thing.

I don't know how it will hold up to folding and un-folding and will test that. The "fold/un-fold" pan liner cook pot weighs 0.32oz. The Orikaso bowl weighs 1.19oz.

Later today I will try and boil water in the cook pot and see what happends. If it fails I will make another one out of the Brass Sheet stuff and see if that will work.

If nothing works as a cook pot I can still use the Aluminum Flat-Fold "pan liner" as a very light bowl.

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Edited by bfornshell on 09/18/2005 23:50:33 MDT.

Scott Ashdown
(waterloggedwellies) - F

Locale: United Kingdom
Aluminum "Flat Fold" Cook Pot on 09/19/2005 03:47:09 MDT Print View

Bill, I was only thinking about this very same idea just the other day, but as usual, yet again you have led the pack!!!!!!!! I will be interested to hear what results you get from this. Keep up the good work. Regards Scott.

Edited by waterloggedwellies on 09/19/2005 03:47:41 MDT.

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
Nice bill... on 09/19/2005 12:02:10 MDT Print View

It seems to me, I remember (from the Mat Sci class I took waaaaaay too long ago) that there are different "tempers" of aluminum and getting the right temper would likely allow this design to last longer...

Even if it would stand up to a bit of abuse, this could be great for short weekend trips... just toss it in the recylcling bin when you're done...

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Aluminum "Flat Fold" Cook Pot on 09/19/2005 12:26:38 MDT Print View

Scott and Joshua: Thanks for your comments.

I don't have a lot of confidence that the Aluminum pan liner will last very long as a cook pot. My first test with fire will use an Esbit tablet. I think they might burn with less heat and will see what happens. It the pan liner makes it through that I will try an alcohol soda can stove. I have reduced my cook pot patterens for the Brass Sheet stuff I have and will cut a cook pot out of it later today. I am sure the Brass will last but it is also going to be heavier.

If the Al pan liner will last for a few boils then your idea for a short hike (couple of days) cook pot should work. The Throw-away cook pot would work well with a really SUL gear list on a hike of up to 3 or so days.

I am playing with a few other shapes to see if they might work better to boil water. It is easy and cheap to make lots of ideas using paper.

Edited by bfornshell on 09/19/2005 12:29:12 MDT.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Aluminum "Flat Fold" Cook Pot on 09/19/2005 15:07:28 MDT Print View

I have completed my first Al Flat Fold Cook Pot boil test (12oz of water). I used a full Esbit tablet. I had a boil between 4 and 5 minutes. The Pan Liner Cook Pot looks like it came through the first test boil OK. The Esbit left some black on the bottom and side of the pot. I will see if this will come off. I will next try the cook pot with one of my alcohol soda can stoves.




Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
tempering aluminum pan liner on 09/19/2005 15:41:07 MDT Print View

Aluminum acts like any other non-ferrous metal; it hardens with use and stress, and can be softened, 'annealed', by heat. The process of rolling and shaping pan liners and other aluminum foil products acts to harden the material, making it both springier and stiffer.

You can make any aluminum sheet softer - more malleable - by *carefully* heating it under dim light to a dull brown, 'cherry' red - or just before that point. Quinch it in water immediately. An alcohol burner is ideal for this job. However, it is very easy to overdo it and burn aluminum. One way to avoid burning the material is to watch the degree to which the varnish added to most aluminum products during manufacture chars. The varnish is on the shiny side of foil as well as flashing, pie pans, oven liners and pan liners. When the varnish is brown going to black, you have probably hit the right temperature range.

Annealing aluminum is the first step when expanding cans to make some stove designs and for precise bending and shaping of aluminum sheet. As you 'work' the piece, the aluminum will harden again. If you are doing extensive shaping, you may need to anneal it repeatedly.

Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
folding wood stove? on 09/19/2005 15:43:10 MDT Print View

Now, can anyone come up with a folding woodbrning stove? Something simple that uses folds instead of hinges. The world is standing with bated breath.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: folding wood stove? on 09/19/2005 16:25:07 MDT Print View

Vick, here is a link from a Post by someone else in another Thread - i think that you might have seen this already

Edited by pj on 09/19/2005 16:30:12 MDT.

Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
folding wood stove on 09/19/2005 17:45:51 MDT Print View

Paul,
Thanks, I asked the question in a couple of places and got the same answer. Gotta try it.

In the past, (mostly on canoe trips) I've used a flue pipe stove, but it is way too big and heavy. Also, I don't like the smoke and soot. I keep my woodburning stuff in a sack, but still....

On the other hand, if the stove is light enough, the fuel savings are attractive. And if you know what you are doing, dry, burnable wood is not hard to find, even in rainy weather - and that is discounting waterproof fuel such as birch bark and pine heart (both of which make a huge black mess). Is it possible to burn this stuff so efficiently that there are no deposits? I know that an enclosed stove is really efficient, but I have never seen one that is not messy.

paul johnson
(pj) - F

Locale: LazyBoy in my Den - miss the forest
Re: folding wood stove on 09/19/2005 17:58:25 MDT Print View

don't know about getting no deposits. one key to reducing deposits with most woods is the hotter the better (at least when it comes to reducing deposits). another key, is adequate air (oxygen) to the fire (this is also related to making the fire burn hotter), resulting in more complete combustion of some compounds of the fuel.

Edited by pj on 09/19/2005 18:38:55 MDT.

Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
folding stoves on 09/19/2005 18:52:44 MDT Print View

Folks have pointed be at a couple of great designs. What I am really fishing for, though is an orgami-style folding stove, or at least something very light and very compact. Although either the blown design or Nimblewell Nomads probably fills the bill.

Thanks, everyone

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
origami style stove on 09/19/2005 21:10:11 MDT Print View

the only problem I see (conceptually) is that an origami type stove is not likely to be strong enough to hold the weight of a pot full of water... flat side are notoriously weak, the nimblewill cross locks the sides in order to get better strength, risk's brass shim stove actually uses stakes to support the pot... now... one could possibly make a gassifier stove out of a roll up piece of ss shim combine this with a tiny folding pot... and it could be a great stove and be stable enough to hold it... would have to be narrow and tall to strong enough... hmm....

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Origami style stove on 09/19/2005 22:27:40 MDT Print View

Hi Joshua & Vick, I see the main problem being something that gets to complicated vs other simple ways to boil water. Several years ago when Risk posted his first wood stove I made one and we exchanged a few ideas. He was using a fan with a home made blade on it and I was using a small computer fan. I suggested he look for something like that and he found his at Radio Shack. I mounted my fan on the side of the stove so it would blow into and around the inside of the stove for better combustion. I wanted to use my wood stove for a little extra heat if it was cool or damp and just to have a small fire. My stove weighed about 7oz not counting the 9 volt battery. When I started using Titanium I thought about replacing all the Aluminum with Titanium.

Making a hybrid/origami style wood stove could be done. I have been playing with some paper models and they would use side supports that are worked into the design and support the weight of the cook pot. I like things simple and easy to set-up under bad weather conditions and this may not fit into that standard.







Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
woodburning stove on 09/20/2005 08:17:59 MDT Print View

Bill,
Wow, all you need now is a bearskin rug.

I'm seeing that positive air flow is one of the (many) critical issues. That was certainly the case with my 12" tall flue stove which uses convection. A fan-blown stove would be lighter and more stable. To the drawing board.

Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
Re: Brass sheet with "Flat Fold" Cook Pot on 09/20/2005 08:25:06 MDT Print View

Bill,
Whatch out for heavy metal poisening when using brass - especially eating out of it. It's not for nothing that key shops have electrostatic precipitators. If you plan to actually use a brass pot, coat the inside with tin -- which is the traditional way to make brass and copper pots safe. Tinning a pot is just like the process of soldering: clean bright, heat, flux, heat, apply tin. Art metal and jewelry suppliers sell tin sheets.

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Material for "Flat Fold" Cook Pot on 09/20/2005 10:41:47 MDT Print View

Vick: Thanks for the "heads-up" on the Brass.

I get a lot of my metal stuff at a local Hobby Shop. The Hobby Shops sell stuff by a company called K&S Engineering that packages lots of sizes, types, etc, of metal items for folks making their own stuff. I got some Thin Stainless last night (.002 thick - 44 guage) 12" wide by 30" long ($11.00). I also got something called Soft Aluminum (.005 thick - 36 guage) 12" by 30" long ($6.69). I will try both and see how it folds/unfolds.

Link to K&S Craft Materials

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
Hobby Lobby? on 09/20/2005 10:52:32 MDT Print View

Wow... I gotta go check that out... would have never thought to get metal from them...

Bill Fornshell
(bfornshell) - MLife

Locale: Southern Texas
Material for "Flat Fold" Cook Pot on 09/20/2005 11:07:16 MDT Print View

Joshua: I get a few things from Hobby Lobby but most comes from the more specialized Hobby Shops. The shops that sell RC models etc. I don't remember seeing the rolls of metal like I got last night at Hobby Lobby.

Look for "Hobby Town USA" in your phone book or check here:
Link to Hobby Town USA

Edited by bfornshell on 09/20/2005 11:11:52 MDT.

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
hobby stores on 09/20/2005 12:50:22 MDT Print View

I know right where an RC type hobby shop is... I'll check there on my way home... er... not tonight, tomorrow...

Vick Hines
(vickrhines) - F

Locale: Central Texas
Materials sourcing on 09/20/2005 17:55:21 MDT Print View

Wouldn't it be great if we had a continually updated catalogue of sources for materials in retail quantities? Searching this forum doesn't quite do the job. Maybe the powers that be could set up a separate area just for this stuff.