The Carbon Flame War
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Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re. The Carbon Flame War on 09/27/2010 19:47:44 MDT Print View

"It is socialism in the US and UK. The govenment or someone will take care of us."

They take 30% of all of my earnings.
Do I get something for that or is it simply the cost of Freedom?

And what of those that cannot advocate or take care of themselves...Like children and the elderly?

Push them onto the street and tell them they should have planned better? Is this a policy?

I suppose in the Libertarian/Free-Market world there will be no poor people, no children born to out-of-work parents, no lost jobs, no cancer-stricken people that cannot work and need help, no catastrophes....because people would know there is no help and plan their finances accordingly.

Or they'll just die and not burden the rest of us.

________________________________________________

"India and China are allowing limited capitalism, and the people are grasping the concept."

I'm sure we'd all love to live the life of the average Indian or Chinese worker...But hey, at least they don't expect a government to help them if they starve.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re. The Carbon Flame War on 09/27/2010 20:03:42 MDT Print View

I certainly don't blame the kids. That's like saying the egg came before the chicken! I'm not *blaming* technology either, just stating the obvious that the world we live and learn in now is quite different to anything humans have ever had to cope with. It naturally erodes some of our previous knowledge and wisdom that our progenitors absolutely needed to survive, while endowing us with a new kind of knowledge and wisdom. It's created a true global culture that is interdependent on the rest of humans to keep us alive. If we were to completely and catastrophically lose this technology, most of us would not survive. I am still listening to local folks who, over three weeks after a major earthquake damaged infrastructure, still complain because they have to walk a couple of blocks to use a toilet, take a shower or do their laundry, and they make it sound like it is an insurmountable problem. I call it 'learned helplessness'. Heaven forbid if the supply of food, clean water, or healthcare was interrputed, or there were masses of dead bodies lining the streets (as in Haiti). And yes, some of these people also complained because they did not have internet access to help them solve their problems!

Edited by retropump on 09/27/2010 20:16:45 MDT.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re. The Carbon Flame War on 09/27/2010 20:51:36 MDT Print View

Only 117 more posts to go!!!

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re. The Carbon Flame War on 09/27/2010 23:53:46 MDT Print View

They take 30% of all of my earnings.
Do I get something for that or is it simply the cost of Freedom?
--------------------------------------------------------

They take it by force, without consent, and then redistribute most of it. You get very little for it. The cost of freedom is to secure us from enemies, foreign or domestic. Everything else is stolen. To steal is immoral.

"... all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Health care and jobs are not unalienable Rights.

Edited by ngatel on 09/27/2010 23:57:16 MDT.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: Re. The Carbon Flame War on 09/28/2010 00:48:53 MDT Print View

"I call it 'learned helplessness'. Heaven forbid if the supply of food, clean water, or healthcare was interrputed, or there were masses of dead bodies lining the streets (as in Haiti)."

I bought another three 1000L plastic tanks off the 'bay recently. I now have the capacity to filter and store over 1000gallons of rainwater. I have passed my course as a first aider too. I hope I never have to help deal with lots of dead bodies though, and I'm thankful I don't live in an earthquake zone.

I'm currently trying to fit a backboiler system to my woodburning stove so I'm no longer reliant on piped gas for hot water and warm radiators round the house. I've finished restoring my 1980 Aerostar van and my chainsaw is sharp. Fuel is plentiful and free near my home.

The internet should be a huge boon for humans. We should be communicating with and making friends with people all over the world. Our governments don't really want us to do that however, as it threatens their divide and rule technique. State education systems have been deliberately dumbed down. They want us just literate enough to understand the adverts on TV, but not so literate that we start standing up for the principles of our forefathers.

I sold our TV on ebay a ago. We don't need the propaganda.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re. The Carbon Flame War on 09/28/2010 11:33:49 MDT Print View

interesting...

Middle East's largest theme park makes a gimmick of global warming

The ice-themed water park is based on the story of a clan of penguins who lose their 'Arctic' home and settle in the waters of the Arabian Gulf

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2010/sep/28/uae-global-warming-theme-park

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re. The Carbon Flame War on 09/28/2010 11:41:41 MDT Print View

Internet opportunity...


looney


And welcome to 'Spot the Loony', where once again we invite you to come with us all over the world to meet all kinds of people in all kinds of places, and ask you to . .. Spot the Loony!

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Scientists are getting dumber. on 09/28/2010 12:03:35 MDT Print View

Even top scientists like Prof Brian Cox don't seem very clever. I'm sure he is wrong about a few things on this short BBC clip on Youtube. HERE

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
The Carbon Flame War on 09/28/2010 12:33:24 MDT Print View

There is no security in a Nation that cannot secure itself from a biological attack, natural or man made.

It is essential to providing the security needed to enjoy and participate in the right to life, liberty, and happiness.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: Re: Re. The Carbon Flame War on 09/28/2010 13:26:12 MDT Print View

""... all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.""

"Health care and jobs are not unalienable Rights."

LOL, try being happy with ill health...

I don't suppose one of my inalienable rights is to not believe in a creator? Or are women exempt? I know blacks were exempt when that dinosaur of a constitution was written, and since women didn't have a vote in those days either, I guess it doesn't apply to them. Here's an idea: lets add some more amendments, like the rights to health, education and welfare!

Come to think of it, how can life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness be inalienable rights if they can be taken away from you for 'bad behavior' (incarceration)?

Rog, I disagree that government wants to keep the populace ignorant. It would be more fair to say that SOME governments have this agenda, and usually the populace is happy to oblige as long as there is something good to watch on TV. I don't feel all TV is bad though. I will not, however, allow TV to displace my more important pursuits in life (which include life, liberty and happiness via education and good health).

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: Re: Re. The Carbon Flame War on 09/28/2010 13:30:44 MDT Print View

"I bought another three 1000L plastic tanks off the 'bay recently. I now have the capacity to filter and store over 1000gallons of rainwater. I have passed my course as a first aider too. I hope I never have to help deal with lots of dead bodies though, and I'm thankful I don't live in an earthquake zone.

I'm currently trying to fit a backboiler system to my woodburning stove so I'm no longer reliant on piped gas for hot water and warm radiators round the house. I've finished restoring my 1980 Aerostar van and my chainsaw is sharp. Fuel is plentiful and free near my home."

These are all good things, but I'm talking about people living in a small city surrounded by an abundance of food, fuel and clean running water, who can't even be bothered to walk a few blocks to help themselves to this abundance. They want it delivered to their door! And eventually it will be again, as is the right of anyone who pays property taxes for these services (or pays rent to a property owner). In the interim...if you're not part of the solution then you're definitely a part of the problem.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Climate change linked to quakes on 09/28/2010 15:18:12 MDT Print View

It was only a matter of time before someone was gonna say it!

"Climate change linked to quakes

European research claiming global warming might spark earthquakes and tsunamis is being treated cautiously by New Zealand scientists.

Vulcanologists, seismologists, glaciologists, climatologists and landslide experts met in London this month to discuss geological hazards related to climate upheaval.

Professor Bill McGuire, of University College London, the organiser of the three-day conference, said when land-based ice shelves melted, the Earth's crust bounced back up, triggering earthquakes which sparked submarine landslides and tsunamis.

"Climate change doesn't just affect the atmosphere and the oceans but the Earth's crust as well. The whole Earth is an interactive system," he told Reuters.

Victoria University professor Martha Savage, a seismology expert, said she had seen one published paper on the topic.

Global warming might cause a small increase in earthquakes, she said.

"I think it's really tiny – it [global warming] has a much stronger effect on creating more tornadoes and hurricanes than creating more earthquakes."

National Institute of Water and Atmospheric Research principal climate scientist James Renwick said the theory was reasonable because major ice sheets put huge weight on the Earth's crust. The processes of ice sheet melting and the geological response happened slowly.

"I wouldn't see it as terrifically relevant day-by-day or year-by-year to what's happening here right now.""

David Lutz
(davidlutz)

Locale: Bay Area
"The Carbon Flame War" on 09/28/2010 17:56:09 MDT Print View

I prefer a tighter definition of the word "right". I believe that I have an inherent right as a human being to enjoy "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" to the best of my ability. But I don't have a right to much else, I have to work for it.

I don't believe these rights are granted by a government, and therefore cannot be rescinded by a government except for cause under a system of laws. Which I think is what they mean by inalienable.

For example, if I was stuck on a desert island with ten other people I would expect to still be able to exercise my rights as a member of the island community. I should be able to speak my mind and have a say in how things work and live free of harassment by my island-mates, etc.

But who would grant my right to an education, healthcare or welfare? We could make an arrangement among ourselves to care for the ill or injured and teach each other what we could and divide the labor, etc.

But I would not have a "right" to share in the work product of the others, or an entitlement that the others provide me anything.

Where would the resources come from to fulfill my rights and entitlements?

Whether it's ten people or three-hundred million, it's all the same to me. We can agree to make laws awarding entitlements to people, but they're not rights.

And it's not just semantics, to me there is a very clear and important conceptual difference.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Scientists are getting dumber. on 09/28/2010 18:11:02 MDT Print View

Fascinating video. I've wondered the same questions. The Prof has an incredibly articulate manner. Riveting.

Finding the source of clouds explains it all.

F amazing.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Climate change linked to quakes on 09/28/2010 18:15:09 MDT Print View

Freedom linked to quacks.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: "The Carbon Flame War" on 09/28/2010 18:35:25 MDT Print View

Back to climate change...

Will a packrat be able to packraft?

Serious discussion only please.

Background material is here http://bit.ly/packrafting

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re. The Carbon Flame War on 09/28/2010 18:45:48 MDT Print View

>> Or are women exempt?

Not all of them


exempt

Jay Wilkerson
(Creachen) - MLife

Locale: East Bay
The Carbon Lame War on 09/28/2010 18:51:44 MDT Print View

That's a good one George!!!---LOL

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: "The Carbon Flame War" on 09/28/2010 19:01:32 MDT Print View

" I believe that I have an inherent right as a human being to enjoy "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" to the best of my ability. But I don't have a right to much else, I have to work for it."

Well, you have an alleged *right* as an American to those freedoms, but not as a human being. Most humans that have lived throughout history have not even had those rights.

But even as an American you do not truly have all those rights. The very nature of government means you give up some of your *rights* for the good of society as a whole. Thus you must pay taxes, and obey all laws set by your government or else all your rights can be taken away. You don't even have the right to pursue happiness if that happiness involves the use of drugs that the government has deemed are not your right to use, even if you're not hurting anyone else.

"We could make an arrangement among ourselves to care for the ill or injured and teach each other what we could and divide the labor, etc."

Exactly. That is what a compassionate society does. If not, then that society is making it pretty clear that anyone who is too young, too old, ill, injured or otherwise disadvantaged (like being born to the 'wrong' parents) is of no value to that society, and it would be more efficient to just get rid of them. If that's a society you would be comfortable in, the maybe you can carve off a new country of like-minded people. But America, more than any other country, was founded on Christian principles. Christ taught the ignorant, fed the poor and healed the sick. It was his life's work. He gave up his life and liberty to defend this ideal. And I'm not even a Christian...

"Whether it's ten people or three-hundred million, it's all the same to me. We can agree to make laws awarding entitlements to people, but they're not rights."

Sounds like semantics to me. So what is it...a *right* to bear arms or an entitlement?

David Lutz
(davidlutz)

Locale: Bay Area
"The Carbon Flame War" on 09/28/2010 20:12:44 MDT Print View

Lynn - Unfortunately, I can't understand your post or see how it relates to mine, therefore I can't respond.