The Carbon Flame War
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Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Prehistoric humans and climate change on 07/08/2010 15:35:16 MDT Print View

> Where's your proof that woolly mammoths are extinct?

I think we have some in Canberra...

Cheers

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Re: Re: Re: Re: Prehistoric humans and climate change on 07/08/2010 16:17:43 MDT Print View

> Where's your proof that woolly mammoths are extinct?

I think we have some in Canberra...

Cheers

I have been called lots of things but a "woolly mammoth"

I hope you are talking about our federal politicians.

Tony in Canberra

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Home schooling on 07/08/2010 18:28:06 MDT Print View

"Pulled this one out of your butt huh."

I thought it might be easier for you to understand that way.

"So if I live in a racially homogeneous part of the country, my education will be poor? We should all move to CA?"

Not the point. The point is that a homeschooled kid, no matter how good their education, will likely have to function as an adult in a society where an increasing percentage of the population does not look, speak, or think like them, not mention having to deal with people even more different in a globalized world. Like learning a language, this is a part of their education best started early.

"This from the US Department of Education for 2003

"Many of the 2003 survey findings concerning homeschooling rates by student and family
characteristics paralleled those found in 1999. In 2003, as in 1999, the homeschooling rate for
White students (2.7 percent) was higher than for Black students (1.3 percent) or Hispanic students
(0.7 percent) (table 2)."
nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/2006042.pdf

Hardly approaching 100% - 2.7% White vs 2% people of color."

You are deceptively applying your percentages to far smaller numbers of Black and Hispanic students. The numbers I got from a 2007 NCES report were: White = 3.9%; Black = .8%; Hispanic = 1.5%; Other = 3.4%. This in itself doesn't tell the whole story, however. Further googling produced the following numbers: The number of K-12 students is ~50 million; 58%(29 million) are White; 20%(10 million) are Hispanic; 15%(7.5 million) are Black. The percentages above applied to these numbers yield the following numbers of homeschooled by race/ethnicity: ~ 1,113,000(~75%) Whites; ~150,000(~10%) Hispanics; ~65,000(4%) Blacks. The remainder is spread over ill defined groups not germaine to our discussion. I was off in my nearly 100% assertion and will remind myself to be more precise in future, but the fact remains homeschooled children are overwhelmingly White from predominantly rural and suburban areas also predominantly white, probably not being prepared to enter an increasingly non-white society.

I appreciate your concerns about the sorry state of our public education system, and I share your concerns. However, I am also concerned about the future cohesiveness of our country as a whole, and the public school system has historically played an integrative role, bringing people from all walks of life together at an early age. It started to break down in the 60's, I believe, but I also believe it can be repaired. We cannot afford to self segregate ourselves again. From that point of view I do not believe homeschooling is a good idea, no matter how well the children are taught(and I am skeptical of this but offer no proof). There are also other options that can bring kids together with others of different backgrounds, charter schools and private schools to name two. If affordability is a problem, let the government provide vouchers or other financial aid, but don't give up the opportunity to integrate. Long term, we must repair the public school system, but in the meantime there are other options. OK folks, that's it. I can feel the flames licking at my feet already. ;}

obx hiker
(obxcola) - MLife

Locale: Outer Banks of North Carolina
Veering off in a new direction on 07/08/2010 19:36:33 MDT Print View

I'm sure there's an explanation for the wordwide explosion in archeological finds of this type.... Like the body from the glacier in Italy nearly in Austria that was what 8000 years old. Can't be global warming.

Anyway it's interesting on it's own merits.

http://qmackie.wordpress.com/2010/06/30/yellowstone-ice-patch-atlatl-dart/

For those who follow southwestern and "anasazi" archaeology this is a GREAT blog: http://gamblershouse.wordpress.com/

PS I agree with Tom and would go further. Supporting public education is YOUR obligation as a citizen. It is a responsibility that should be considered a sacred duty.

Not supporting public education is like F-bombing the whole idea of a democratic republic where all people are created equal.

The link from the link is even better: http://www.colorado.edu/news/r/6f01e0cf192c909927c88da29caafdd8.html

Edited by obxcola on 07/08/2010 19:49:23 MDT.

Nate Meinzer
(Rezniem) - F

Locale: San Francisco
Home Schooling Sucks on 07/08/2010 20:59:25 MDT Print View

It just does.

This isn't to say it's always the worst option. Nothing is *always* anything. But it's difficult to see how most parents are equipped to teach AP Calculus, History, English, Chemistry, and Physics. It's just not realistic for most.

Also, home school kids tend to be socially retarded. Sorry, just the way it is. Sociology has discovered that social development at a YOUNG AGE is very important, and much like learning a language, once you are past a certain age, your ability to learn social skills with ease is dramatically reduced. This of course doesn't mean that all home schooled kids will be socially retarded.

The diversity point is interesting, but far from the most obvious problems with home schooling.

If your area schools are so terrible, a better option is probably moving.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Home Schooling Sucks on 07/08/2010 21:06:10 MDT Print View

I think you're missing one of the points David was making -- home schooling doesn't necessarily mean home schooling from K-13. It could be for a year, and could provide a tremendous benefit to a young, inquisitive mind, without retarding social growth, without the need to teach AP Calculus or Physics, etc. etc. It could give a struggling child the (temporary) extra attention s/he needs to excel. It's obviously not the best solution in all, or probably even the majority, of cases, but it's an excellent solution for some children at some point in their educational career. As I'm fond of saying, the world ain't black and white. It ain't even a single shade of grey.....

Nate Meinzer
(Rezniem) - F

Locale: San Francisco
The Carbon Flame War on 07/08/2010 21:09:48 MDT Print View

Gotcha, Doug. Good points.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
hoom skooled on 07/08/2010 21:12:09 MDT Print View

Hey,

If I don't home school my kids, I run the risk of them growing up not thinking and believing exactly like me.

This is not acceptable.



(Opens padlock to underground bunker with one bare light bulb and homemade chalkboard.)

obx hiker
(obxcola) - MLife

Locale: Outer Banks of North Carolina
Citizenship and Christianity on 07/09/2010 11:05:57 MDT Print View

All of you make excellent points about the efficacy and practicality of Home Schooling and to some degree or by extension private education.

What interests me is the reconciliation of civic ethics along with or as well as Christian principles and private education or home schooling.

How can you be either a good citizen or a practicing believer and advocate for or practice home-schooling or private primary education?

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Home Schooling Sucks on 07/09/2010 16:52:44 MDT Print View

"As I'm fond of saying, the world ain't black and white. It ain't even a single shade of grey....."

There you go again, muddying the water. ;}

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Home Schooling Sucks on 07/09/2010 18:24:28 MDT Print View

"There you go again, muddying the water. ;}"

That's okay, I've got a filter, I can fix it!

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Home Schooling Sucks on 07/09/2010 20:30:07 MDT Print View

"That's okay, I've got a filter, I can fix it!"

I hope it works better than that steenkeeng p-O-O-p filter we've been trashing over in Admin. ;)

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Prehistoric humans and climate change on 07/10/2010 05:59:25 MDT Print View

"> Where's your proof that woolly mammoths are extinct?

I think we have some in Canberra...

Cheers

I have been called lots of things but a "woolly mammoth"

I hope you are talking about our federal politicians.

Tony in Canberra"

Not to worry, apparently there's a new monitoring station at Canberra airport, away from the old one, which is going to blow open the global warming conspiracy.

p.s., my wife used to live in Kingston opposite Telopea Park so I used to visit regularly.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Prehistoric humans and climate change on 07/10/2010 10:53:24 MDT Print View

I can see a lot of ground has been covered on some pretty wide ranging topics since I last visited. :-)

"Not to worry, apparently there's a new monitoring station at Canberra airport, away from the old one, which is going to blow open the global warming conspiracy."

It's the raw data from long lived stations which has blown open the shoddy condition of the 'adjusted' temperature record.

Like this one in Arizona:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/07/10/raising-arizona/

It would be funny if it wasn't so serious.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Retrired School Principals on 07/10/2010 11:00:55 MDT Print View

> humans have over-populated and exploited this planet to breaking point, and it's not just climate

Roger Caffin responded:
I will keep RogT happy and profess an open mind still on the details of climate change. There is still a lot of interpretation required there. And, we can adapt.

But, as Lynn wrote, there are other bigger problems looming for the human race, and the supply of fresh water is one of the most extreme. Many countries are depleting their subterranean aquifers so fast that they will lose much of their agriculture in the next few decades. What will India and China do then? Not to mention some areas of the USA?


Hurray for some sense of priority and proportion. Thank you Roger C.

This is what I've been saying all along. There are more important things to worry about which are more readily quantifiable, and solveable, if we were to re-direct the money being poured down the global warming rabbit hole...

More evidential support is emerging for the galactic cosmic ray theory of cloud formation.
http://calderup.wordpress.com/2010/06/18/star-positions-matter/

The Gaia satellite due for launch in 2012 should bring better resolution data, to be processed by 2020...

These things take time.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Sea otters worth $700 million in carbon credits on 07/12/2010 18:23:53 MDT Print View

I'd hate to see this thread die before it reaches 100 pages ;)

Sea otters worth $700 million in carbon credits
17:38 07 July 2010 by Peter Aldhous

Want to slow global warming? Save a sea otter. So says Chris Wilmers at the University of California, Santa Cruz, whose team has calculated that the animals remove at least 0.18 kilograms of carbon from the atmosphere for every square metre of occupied coastal waters.

That means that if sea otters were restored to healthy populations along the coasts of North America they could collectively lock up a mammoth 1010 kg of carbon – currently worth more than $700 million on the European carbon-trading market. Wilmers explained this at the annual meeting of the Society for Conservation Biology in Edmonton, Canada, this month.

The figures are part of a growing realisation that predators play a crucial ecological role, promoting the growth of vegetation by controlling herbivore populations. Just as wolves benefit trees and shrubs by killing deer, sea otters allow the luxuriant growth of kelp by consuming sea urchins.

In former kelp forests that have lost their otters, Wilmers says, "all you are left with is piles of urchins and very little else".
Sink sizing

To estimate the minimum size of the carbon sink that could be provided by sea otters in North America, Wilmers and his colleagues determined the total available habitat for kelp – rocky reefs in up to 20 metres of water – and summed the amount of carbon that would be locked up in kelp either if no otters were present, or if the animals were present throughout in populations sufficient to control sea-urchin numbers.

The true size of the sink is likely to be larger than the calculated 1010 kg, Wilmers suggests, as some carbon drawn from the atmosphere by kelp forests may find its way into the deep ocean and be sequestered for long periods.

The exact size of historical sea otter populations, before they were nearly wiped out by hunting for fur in the 18th and 19th centuries, is uncertain. But after bouncing back from the brink, the animals are now in decline once again in parts of their range. In Alaska, for example, populations have dropped from up to 125,000 in the 1970s to around 70,000 today – possibly due to a rise in killer whale populations.

The new calculations provide an added incentive to protect sea otters, but do terrestrial predators provide a comparable carbon sink? No calculations have yet been done, but Wilmers believes the numbers could be similarly impressive. As a result of the loss of wolves across most of their former habitat, he points out, deer populations in parts of North America are currently around five times as high as historical levels, dramatically changing vegetation.
Dense woods

Predators are not the only large animals that help create carbon sinks, suggests Jedediah Brodie at the University of Montana in Missoula. In October 2009 in Science (vol 326, p 364), he argued that hunting in forests for bushmeat removes fruit-eating animals, reducing the numbers of trees that rely on them to disperse their seeds. Because these trees tend to have denser wood than those with smaller seeds that rely on wind for dispersal, the net result will be a decrease in the amount of carbon stored by a forest.

Some ecologists remain to be convinced by his argument (Science, vol 327, p 30), but Brodie is now crunching the numbers using measurements of the growth of saplings in two Peruvian forests – one heavily hunted and one with an intact fauna – plus data on the density of wood from different species.

Merely protecting a forest from logging isn't enough to ensure that it functions properly as a carbon sink, Brodie says. "You've also got to be concerned about the large animals."

Nate Meinzer
(Rezniem) - F

Locale: San Francisco
The Carbon Flame War on 07/19/2010 01:11:25 MDT Print View

We (the earth) just had the warmest June on record ever, despite the low solar flare activity. Sure looks like that terrible cold spell Rog has been warning about hasn't really panned out.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Sea otters worth $700 million in carbon credits on 07/19/2010 02:57:41 MDT Print View

Hi Lynn

>lock up a mammoth 1010 kg of carbon
um ... you know, that's just 1 ton of carbon. Not worth $700M surely. Are you missing some sort of prefix somewhere?

Cheers

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Re: The Carbon Flame War on 07/19/2010 03:42:54 MDT Print View

>We (the earth) just had the warmest June on record ever, despite the low solar flare activity. Sure looks like that terrible cold spell Rog has been warning about hasn't really panned out.


http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2010/20100715_globalstats.html

<center>
Global temperatures


</center>

Rolf Exner
(rolfex)

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Sea otters worth $700 million in carbon credits on 07/19/2010 06:21:14 MDT Print View

To Lynn and Roger

">lock up a mammoth 1010 kg of carbon
um ... you know, that's just 1 ton of carbon. Not worth $700M surely. Are you missing some sort of prefix somewhere?"

I think it should read 10^10 kg, i.e. 10 million tons.

Rolf