The Carbon Flame War
Display Avatars Sort By:
David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Re: Re: Re: Liberals vs conservatives on 07/07/2010 17:59:04 MDT Print View

"I am belatedly ascribing it to an abysmal education system"

More and more are home schooling because of this.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Liberals vs conservatives on 07/07/2010 18:03:26 MDT Print View

"Tom, I think the bottom line is education.

I agree.

"Although education does not always=intelligence, it appears that folks who attend tertiary education are more exposed to a variety of ideas and become more open-minded, ie liberal."

Again, I agree, with the caveat that here in the US there has been a drive to put everyone through university. To the degree that has succeeded, there has been a widening gap between education and intelligence at the university level because many of the people now in university are patently unqualified to be there. They simply do not have the intellect to do the work, never mind the work ethic and discipline.

"Again, it's just a generalization, as there are many conservatives who have higher education"

Indeed, and they have much to contribute to the conversation. I think conservatism has gotten a bad name since it has been hijacked by fringe elements. IMO, they are a vital and necessary counterweight to the excesses of the left wing fringe in any democratic society. Remember, Burke was a conservative in the finest tradition. We could use some more like him to perhaps help us slow down our frantic technology driven rush into an increasingly uncertain future for all living things..

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: "The Carbon Flame War" on 07/07/2010 18:14:25 MDT Print View

"So, to what I gather your overall point was -- the left does it too! -- I'll agree wholeheartedly."

Oh yeah! A huge +1 to that. Did anyone read the excellent article in the New York Times yesterday about the new way of funneling earmark money to campaign contributors? It's a beaut. I walked around depressed most of the day. More Democrats involved than Republicans, and the Democrats made the rules that included a custom designed loophole to wiggle through. A pox on them all.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Liberals vs conservatives on 07/07/2010 18:16:40 MDT Print View

"More and more are home schooling because of this."

Which leads us to the question: Who is doing the home schooling? And how do they prepare their kids to function in an increasingly diverse society?

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Liberals vs conservatives on 07/07/2010 18:28:14 MDT Print View

"Which leads us to the question: Who is doing the home schooling? And how do they prepare their kids to function in an increasingly diverse society?"

Surely this must promote a conservative/parochial up-bringing???

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Prehistoric humans and climate change on 07/07/2010 18:29:55 MDT Print View

Now that we're at page thirty, I thought I'd try to add some new controversy into the topic:

Prehistoric humans may have pushed climate change
14:20 07 July 2010 by Anil Ananthaswamy

Humans were fiddling with climate thousands of years before the onset of agriculture - albeit unwittingly. At least, that is if we played a part in the extinction of woolly mammoths.

Until recently, anthropogenic climate change was deemed to begin with the burning of fossil fuels during the industrial revolution. Then in 2003, William Ruddiman, a palaeoclimatologist at the University of Virginia, suggested the advent of agriculture 8000 years ago ramped up levels of the greenhouse gas methane in the atmosphere, warming the world by about 0.8 °C. Now it seems we were toying with climate about 15,000 years ago.

Woolly mammoths roamed over much of Eurasia and North America from the mid-to-late Pleistocene about 300,000 years ago until numbers began to decline 15,000 years ago, before the beginning of the Holocene. The transition to the warmer Holocene is characterised by a dramatic change in the type of vegetation, from the open steppe tundra favoured by the cold-adapted mammoths to an increase in tree cover.

A previous study had shown that when elephants and other large animals are excluded from a patch of African savannah, tree cover increases by 9 per cent over 36 years. So Christopher Doughty of the Carnegie Institution of Science in Stanford, California, and colleagues wondered whether the extinction of Pleistocene megafauna like the mammoth could be behind the Holocene's shift in vegetation.

Last year, researchers at the University of Wisconsin-Madison studied fossil pollen and spores of a dung fungus found in sediment cores drilled from a North American lakebed and established that the decline in megafauna populations preceded the change in vegetation.

To quantify the effect of changing vegetation on climate, Doughty's team focused on Siberia and Beringia, the region that once formed the land bridge between eastern Siberia and Alaska. Previously collected pollen records show there was a rapid growth in dwarf trees of the genus Betula in this area around 15,000 years ago. The researchers plugged this information into a computer model to find out the effect on the climate of increasing tree cover and diminishing grassland and found that it led to a global temperature increase of about 0.1 °C (Geophysical Research Letters, DOI: 10.1029/2010gl043985).

"There is a strong connection between when humans arrived, when mammoths went extinct and when you see this big increase in vegetation," says Doughty. "They overlap almost exactly."

If humans played a role in the extinction of the mammoths, then they had a hand in the climate change that followed. "I see it as humans' first big impact on the planet," says Doughty.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Home schooling on 07/07/2010 18:43:26 MDT Print View

"Which leads us to the question: Who is doing the home schooling?"

1. Those that are smart enough to realize when the school
is failing their child.

2. Those that have enough resources and time.

3. Those who will not tolerate an unsafe school setting for
their child.

"And how do they prepare their kids to function in an increasingly diverse society?"

That's a pretty big question. Why would home schooling be any different than public school in this regard?

"Surely this must promote a conservative/parochial up-bringing???"

There is an element of people for whom that is a primary reason.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Re: Prehistoric humans and climate change on 07/07/2010 18:45:48 MDT Print View

O come on. You know the earth was created only 6000 years
ago. ;^)

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: Prehistoric humans and climate change on 07/07/2010 19:29:14 MDT Print View

"O come on. You know the earth was created only 6000 years
ago. ;^)"

Ooops, my bad.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Home schooling on 07/07/2010 19:33:29 MDT Print View

""Surely this must promote a conservative/parochial up-bringing???" : "There is an element of people for whom that is a primary reason."

Very true, but interestingly enough, there are many liberals who are beginning to home school their children as well, for many of the reasons David points out above.

"And how do they prepare their kids to function in an increasingly diverse society?" : "That's a pretty big question. Why would home schooling be any different than public school in this regard?"

That depends on how far removed from public life home schoolers keep their children.

Nate Meinzer
(Rezniem) - F

Locale: San Francisco
The Carbon Flame War on 07/07/2010 19:35:02 MDT Print View

David,

Too bad! That was my magnum opus of left-wing trolling.

Ken,

I should have said we'd be better off if EVERYONE--conservatives and liberals alike--could get over the culture war of the 1960's. It's just too time-consuming and petty, and both sides engage freely in their pet issues to get their crazy base riled up.

But thank you. Heh.

Lynn,

So interesting about climate change by prehistoric humans. Thank god they didn't have plastic, toxins, antibiotics, mercury and access to radioactive elements, or we'd probably not be here. But thank God for the modern life they've allowed us enjoy. Oh boy, what a predicament.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Prehistoric humans and climate change on 07/07/2010 19:36:05 MDT Print View

"If humans played a role in the extinction of the mammoths, then they had a hand in the climate change that followed. "I see it as humans' first big impact on the planet," says Doughty."

Damned conservatives, even back then. Kill all the woolly mammoths, this global warming thing is just a hoax perpetrated by those liberal agrarians......

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Re: Re: Home schooling on 07/07/2010 20:16:30 MDT Print View

"And how do they prepare their kids to function in an increasingly diverse society?" : "That's a pretty big question. Why would home schooling be any different than public school in this regard?"

"That depends on how far removed from public life home schoolers keep their children."

I would say again how is that different than public school?
If parents of public school kids want to insulate their children from the world,
they still do that. You remember, those freshman kids in college that had never been on their own.

Home schooled kids generally have MORE exposure to the wide
world than public school kids in my experience. The ones
I know go learn trades with friends and parents, take
interesting trips as part of their schooling, get a lot
more outdoor adventure and physical ed.

When you talk with them, they generally can relate to
adults better than many of their public school peers can.

It is important for kids to develop social skills with
their peers and the best way is for adults and trustworthy mentors
to be available to help them do so. Other wise it could be
"Lord of the Flies" time. Unsupervised time, like you see
on playgrounds and on school buses just increases the chance
kids will pick up the wrong problem solving and social
skills.

My third grader was offered pot this year by a
6th grader on the playground.

He was also sent to be counseled, alone for several days, with a someone at the school who then was arrested and got 14 years for child molestation.

Despite our concerns with my son's sudden drop in
performance and the safety issues at the school, the teacher
refused to let us help out in the classroom. They don't
take kindly to parental involvement.

This wasn't in the big city, it wasn't at Hicksville either.
80% of the teachers in the school district have advanced
degrees - masters or better.

Education doesn't make a better teacher all by itself.

And sometimes public school is really the worst alternative.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Home schooling on 07/07/2010 20:41:07 MDT Print View

"1. Those that are smart enough to realize when the school
is failing their child.

2. Those that have enough resources and time.

3. Those who will not tolerate an unsafe school setting for
their child."

But how likely are they to have the knowledge base to teach their kids all the subject matter they will need to know? Language skills, English and foreign; math; sciences; history; etc. No couple is likely to have these multiple disciplines at their command.


"That's a pretty big question. Why would home schooling be any different than public school in this regard?"

I think the answer to that one is pretty obvious here in the USA. The folks who are doing the home schooling are almost 100% Caucasian, whereas the country is diversifying at a rate that will leave whites as a plurality of the population by ~2050. They already are in California, according to those totally unreliable media reports.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Home schooling on 07/07/2010 20:42:51 MDT Print View

"If parents of public school kids want to insulate their children from the world,
they still do that"

Not for the 6-8 hours they're in school.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Re: Re: Home schooling on 07/07/2010 22:27:06 MDT Print View

"But how likely are they to have the knowledge base to teach their kids all the subject matter they will need to know? Language skills, English and foreign; math; sciences; history; etc. No couple is likely to have these multiple disciplines at their command."

They don't have to have it at their command. And further,
if a teacher does, but can't or won't teach it to the child,
what does it matter? With home schooling you aren't
stuck with a bad teacher.

Home schooling isn't like the Swiss Family Robinson, on
some deserted isle. School curriculum is available from many
sources, including the public school. Kids that are
home schooled still have access to special ed instruction,
sports, music etc. not only through the public school district but through other sources too. Want to take singing lessons from a private teacher?
That can be part of your curriculum, possibly paid for
through your school district. Want to do your
school work for a month in the summer. Go ahead, then you
have a month in the winter to go to central america on a medical relief trip. Learn some Spanish via immersion.

Many home schoolers are part of support
groups and co-op that share teaching responsibilities.

"I think the answer to that one is pretty obvious here in the USA. The folks who are doing the home schooling are almost 100% Caucasian, whereas the country is diversifying at a rate that will leave whites as a plurality of the population by ~2050. They already are in California, according to those totally unreliable media reports"

Pulled this one out of your butt huh. Boy do you have
some pre-conceived notions.

So if I live in a racially homogeneous part of the country, my education will be poor? We should all move to CA?

This from the US Department of Education for 2003

"Many of the 2003 survey findings concerning homeschooling rates by student and family
characteristics paralleled those found in 1999. In 2003, as in 1999, the homeschooling rate for
White students (2.7 percent) was higher than for Black students (1.3 percent) or Hispanic students
(0.7 percent) (table 2)."
nces.ed.gov/pubs2006/2006042.pdf

Hardly approaching 100% - 2.7% White vs 2% people of color.

Some of the most important pioneers of homeschooling
were people of color, for obvious reasons.

Finally, homeschooling can be used as long as it works for
the family and child. There is nothing that says the child
need be home schooled every grade. Maybe just one year the
child needs intensive one on one help to catch up. Maybe more
if the schools are gang infested.

Edited by oware on 07/07/2010 22:40:02 MDT.

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Re: Prehistoric humans and climate change on 07/08/2010 04:58:41 MDT Print View

"If humans played a role in the extinction of the mammoths, then they had a hand in the climate change that followed. "I see it as humans' first big impact on the planet," says Doughty."


Where's your proof that woolly mammoths are extinct? Everyone knows that the survey sites were placed so as to bias the outcome of the survey. And just because the survey sites have recorded a complete absence of living mammoths doesn't mean that there aren't any - it's just that the sites have been selectively placed in urban heat islands where mammoths are unlikely to appear.

Edited by Arapiles on 07/08/2010 04:59:40 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Home schooling on 07/08/2010 08:23:31 MDT Print View

"With home schooling you aren't stuck with a bad teacher."

You certainly can be. While I agree with many of your points, and believe home schooling can often outshine both private and public schools in some areas with the right curriculum and the right 'teacher,' home schooling certainly doesn't insulate a child from a 'bad teacher.' Some parents who home school are idiots, just like some 'professional' teachers are idiots. The difference, as it pertains to the quoted statement, is that you can be stuck with a bad teacher for years in home schooling, while you're only stuck with any particular bad teacher for a year in most public or private schools.

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Home schooling on 07/08/2010 14:17:10 MDT Print View

"80% of the teachers in the school district have advanced
degrees - masters or better.

Education doesn't make a better teacher all by itself."

Which goes back to my previous rant that, just because someone DOESN'T have an advanced degree in a field, does not mean they don't know what they're doing or talking about.

My bad impression of home schooling comes from watching too many documentaries on polygamous Mormons...

Tom Caldwell
(Coldspring) - F

Locale: Ozarks
Re: Re: Home schooling on 07/08/2010 14:44:50 MDT Print View

"My bad impression of home schooling comes from watching too many documentaries on polygamous Mormons.."

I think of the extreme fundamental evangelicals and some of their tiny christian schools. Teaching the children biblical fiction as fact, and that evolution is the devil's work. They sure learn the history of missionaries, however.