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The Carbon Flame War
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Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
The Carbon Flame War - getting hot again on 02/06/2012 04:38:38 MST Print View

Cola says:
Why on earth would the local constabulary impound Roger T’s computers? That is the question! Using deductive reasoning I believe one can rule out persecution by the State.


Uh Huh.

For starters it wasn't the local constabulary. It was the chief detective from Norfolk in charge of the CRU email 'hacking' case, plus his sidekick, plus the MET's computer crime officer plus a MET detective seconded to the anti-terrorism unit, plus two local officers who have to be in attendance when a warrant is executed on their patch. I put 'hacking' in quote marks because there has been no announcement by the Police in the last two years confirming that any hack took place. Despite the fact they have had possession of the CRU email backup server all that time, and the University would undoubtedly have liked the Police to confirm their unsupported allegation.

I note that Michael Mann, Phil Jones, Keith Briffa et al haven't had their computers seized during the investigation of the case, despite Phil jones' email from tranche 1 revealing he asked fellow hockey team members to delete emails subject to FOIA requests.

Cola says:
denialist……… Oh dear me there I have gone and done it using a term previously not agreed upon. Let me re-phrase.


Deletion would have been better than rephrasing, though clearly this wouldn't have suited your narrative, otherwise you would have deleted your offensive namecalling. Would you be happy if I found something equally offensive to call you Cola? I doubt it.

Cola says:
Is anyone out there in the blogosphere other than myself interested at the coincidence of the warranted searce of Roger T’s home computers with the recent resignation by one of the highest ranking members of the Cameron Government as posted in the New York Times on Thursday 2-4?

“Chris Huhne, the energy and CLIMATE CHIEF, is accused of perverting the course of justice ........”

Can anyone really believe this resignation of the “Climate Chief” over a “Speeding Ticket” is honestly un-related, a mere coincidence and not potentially the biggest espionage case since the Profumo Affair?


Your attempt to imply that I'm labouring under a delusional conspiracy theory does you no credit.

I used the opportunity presented by my interaction with them to give the chief detective and his assistant a thorough rundown on the content of the climategate emails. It didn't seem to have occurred to them that actually reading them would be a good idea. They reveal that the hockey team, while making public pronouncements, press releases and policy advice stating their certainty that human emissions were heating the planet, were in private highly critical of the quality of each others studies and made admissions of the highly uncertain status of their attribution of the modest late C20th warming to additional co2. They also reveal the subversion of the peer review process and the blackballing of non-conforming journals, the concerted efforts to force the sacking of a non-conforming journal editor and sundry tricks to get substandard science under the wire into the IPCC reports.

I further pointed out that the 'hacker' would most certainly have a strong public interest defence if they were ever found, given that the real scandal was not the copying of the emails, but the vanished billions of taxpayers money sunk down a black hole of unaccounted for grants, slush funds, subsidy paid to parties with a vested interest in continuing the climate scare and the propping up of the now flatlining european carbon market. All on the back of shoddy science with little empirical support, conducted by people who say one thing in public and another in private.


Who knows, maybe the message is getting through. I hear Cameron's chief policy wonk was heard to express his disbelief in man made global warming recently. I can assure him that Mann made global warming is real enough, but it exists only in pseudoscientific studies using dodgy home brewed stats techniques on selectively truncated and massaged datasets to produce a predetermined outcome. Mother nature is telling us something different about the real world.

dan mchale
(wildlife) - MLife

Locale: Cascadia
AGW on 02/06/2012 12:15:41 MST Print View

"Dan McHale says:
>I have thought for a a while that now that we know Climate Change is a reality

We all know that climate change is a reality. Some of us even realise the climate changed quite a lot before man set fire to coal..."

My use of Climate change was capitalized to show the meaning is synonomous with AGW.
All of your heros Rog are affiliates of The Heartland Institute. I know the institute is alive and well in Australia. What is your affiliation? All of your threads are peppered with this innocent seeking of true knowledge, but it is all a thin veil indeed.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Thinly veiled accusations from Dan McHale on 02/06/2012 13:49:41 MST Print View

Dan McHale opines:
What is your affiliation? All of your threads are peppered with this innocent seeking of true knowledge, but it is all a thin veil indeed.


I'm a qualified independent researcher who's affiliation is to scientific truth Dan. Who are you?

My use of Climate change was capitalized to show the meaning is synonomous with AGW.

Since when did the purveyors of the substandard science of AGW take ownership of the phrase 'Climate Change'? (with or without capitals). I hereby reclaim it for the ordinary users of natural language, and the proper study of natural variation.

All of your heros Rog are affiliates of The Heartland Institute. I know the institute is alive and well in Australia.

OK, you lost me now... Are you the sort of person who needs heroes?

Edited by tallbloke on 02/06/2012 14:08:12 MST.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Oh, the irony: Sierra club double crosses fossil fuel corp on 02/06/2012 16:37:56 MST Print View

On Thursday, Sierra Club Executive Director Michael Brune admitted that between 2007 and 2010 the organization took $26 Million from Chesapeake Energy Corporation for the Sierra Club’s campaign against coal-fired electrical power plants. Chesapeake is one the nation’s largest producers of natural gas and extensively uses deep underground hydraulic fracturing “fracking” and sees its future in natural gas-fired power plants.

In making the announcement on the Sierra Club’s web site, Brune implied that it will be joining in the campaign against “fracking” for natural gas. No doubt, the leadership of Chesapeake Energy is elated to hear that the animal they fed so generously to use against their competitors may soon turn on them, probably using the same tactics it used against Chesapeake’s competitors in fuels to power electrical generation.

At least we now know who Michael Brune's affiliations are with eh Dan?

Edited by tallbloke on 02/06/2012 17:06:50 MST.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Cola's conspiracy theory about Chris Huhne on 02/06/2012 17:16:43 MST Print View

Abuse of power against anti-windfarm movement

Chris Huhne on the hot seat

Legal Advisor to the European Platform Against Windfarms (EPAW), George Watson is being investigated by the UK government under special powers which are only to apply to criminal/terrorist activities, claims the Platform. A letter, reproduced below, has been sent to Chris Huhne, Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, denouncing this improper use of the legislation, and announcing legal proceedings against the UK government. A formal complaint has been made to the Metropolitan Police.

According to EPAW, Mr Watson was also harassed by a police officer who visited his home in a Scottish rural area … on Christmas Eve!

Mark Duchamp, Executive Director of EPAW, declared that he was respectfully asking UK government Ministers if they intend to investigate and harass other members of the public who oppose the destruction of the British landscape, the killing of protected bird and bat species, and the deterioration of the health of wind farm neighbours. Mr Watson’s only crime, he said, was to have found legal flaws in the way the UK government’s energy policy is being applied.

EPAW claims that wind farms are ineffective, immensely expensive, and destroy jobs in the rest of the economy (1); that they are also seriously harming human health, resulting in home abandonment, or worse (2); and finally that they are killing protected wildlife into extinction (3). In the circumstances, concludes Duchamp, the 514 associations from 23 countries represented by EPAW would like to know why their members deserve to be investigated and harassed by the authorities, using special powers reserved for criminals and terrorists.

George Watson’s letter is appended.

http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/george_watson_s_letter_to_chris_huhne.png

Read the letter Cola, it's a pretty damning indictment of the abuse of power and misuse of legislation beyond its remit.

Edited by tallbloke on 02/06/2012 17:21:50 MST.

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
The Carbon Flame War on 02/06/2012 17:22:08 MST Print View

Dan McHale enters the Carbon Flame war. We could be good for another 100 pages now:).

Edited by jephoto on 02/06/2012 17:54:35 MST.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: The Carbon Flame War on 02/07/2012 02:40:07 MST Print View

Heh. Jason,

I'm ignoring Dan McHale from now on unless he demonstrates that he has something worthwhile to contribute to the substantive issues raised by this thread.

Edited by tallbloke on 02/07/2012 02:49:51 MST.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
New theory of climate under development on 02/07/2012 02:54:22 MST Print View

Here's a new paper by two scientists who are currently publishing exclusively on my website. Their work is important, and needs to be studied.

http://tallbloke.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/utc_blog_reply_part-1.pdf

dan mchale
(wildlife) - MLife

Locale: Cascadia
a compressed atmosphere on 02/09/2012 15:14:52 MST Print View

Rog said quite a number of pages back,

“The temperatures observed in he upper atmosphere are the coldest since 1973.”

To go with that I found this paper that is very interesting;

http://www.marathon.uwc.edu/geography/100/stratos-cooling.htm

From the paper;

"Ray Roble from the NCAR in Boulder, Colorado, for instance, calculates that the doubling of carbon dioxide levels anticipated within the next century will bring the edge of space 20 kilometres closer."

Edited by wildlife on 02/09/2012 15:48:38 MST.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
Pacific Islands losing fresh water on 02/09/2012 17:19:06 MST Print View

"Money and technology are also urgently needed to help small island developing States like Tuvalu adapt to climate impacts before it's too late,"


http://www.tuvaluislands.com/news/archives/2011/2011-10-13.html





"Governments and people of lost islands could survive "in exile," build structures to mark their submerged territory, retain their status in the eyes of other states and await the day when their islands emerge again when global cooling drops sea levels."


"According to the vast majority of scientific investigations, warming waters and the melting of polar and high-elevation ice worldwide will steadily raise sea levels. This will likely drive people off islands first by spoiling the fresh groundwater, which will kill most land plants and leave no potable water for humans and their livestock.

Low-lying island states like Kiribati, Tuvalu, the Marshall Islands and the Maldives are the most prominent nations threatened in this way."

http://news.discovery.com/earth/global-warming-island-nations.html

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Pacific Islands losing fresh water on 02/09/2012 17:42:01 MST Print View

We can quickly put CO2 in the atmosphere

It takes a long time for it to be removed by natural processes

There are no currently practical man made processes to remove CO2

I think they'll be waiting a long time for their islands to re-emerge

Especially because we don't currently have any urgency to reduce the rate at which we're putting CO2 into the atmosphere

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Getting hot again on 02/09/2012 17:42:35 MST Print View

"I'm ignoring Xxx Xxxxxx from now on"

One can also ignore a person (for any reason) without saying so publicly.

I've been one of 6 or so in a room of 800 on the other side of the debate. Civility is a good thing, IMO. And far more likely to get people to listen to your arguments.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: a compressed atmosphere on 02/09/2012 23:01:07 MST Print View

From the paper Dan quoted:

"Meanwhile, we now find that the meso-sphere, between 50 and 90 kilometres up, has been cooling by as much as a degree every year for the past 30 years--ten times faster than anyone had predicted."

"What has caused alarm is the realisation that the cooling of the stratosphere over the past five years has been greater than predicted, especially over the polar regions in winter."

"That the mesosphere is getting colder is not unexpected; like the stratosphere it should be subject to cooling as the troposphere warms. It is the size of this cooling that has taken everyone by surprise."

I have no doubt that we are experiencing global climate change: we are seeing the effects of that here in Australia and also in Europe. (Yes, I understand the difference between weather and climate.)

However, I have yet to be convinced that we understand what is changing, or how or why it is changing, and I have even stronger doubts over whether we really know enough about the physics of the planet to be able to make predictions for the year 2100. The models, any and all of them, are only as good as the data and the physics we put into them. We keep finding new factors.

Cheers

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Balls of polystyrene on 02/09/2012 23:55:23 MST Print View

Folk should be man enough to leave posts un-edited.
I woke up this morning to see Dan has completely removed his post, and re-posted a completely different one.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Balls of polystyrene on 02/09/2012 23:58:22 MST Print View

"Folk should be man enough to leave posts un-edited.
I woke up this morning to see Dan has completely removed his post, and re-posted a completely different one."

Mike, what does that tell you?

--B.G.--

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Re Re Balls of polystyrene on 02/10/2012 00:05:22 MST Print View

I can only assume that the accusation Dan made was totally unfounded.
Or he has ...

Edited by rcaffin on 02/10/2012 02:00:17 MST.

dan mchale
(wildlife) - MLife

Locale: Cascadia
balls? on 02/10/2012 02:07:03 MST Print View

I just assumed somebody deleted what I said and I left it at that, and I did not cry like a little baby like you guys are. Let's see how long it stands this time. Thanks for bringing it up. What I said was,

"In general, Rog has come to the wrong website to recruit stupid people."

I was rather proud of that comment and did not even think of deleting it....so there. There was a little more to the old thread, but just comments about the good job the Sierra club did taking Chesapeakes money. The comment about recruiting stupid people was what came out of my big gun though, and was what I thought was the reason somebody deleted my post.

----------
I deleted the vulgar bits.
We have Minors reading these channels.
Keep it polite please.

Cheers
Roger Caffin
Online Community Monitor
Backpacking Light

Edited by rcaffin on 02/10/2012 14:48:40 MST.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: a compressed atmosphere on 02/10/2012 02:24:04 MST Print View

Roger Caffin says:

From the paper Dan quoted:

"Meanwhile, we now find that the meso-sphere, between 50 and 90 kilometres up, has been cooling by as much as a degree every year for the past 30 years--ten times faster than anyone had predicted."

"What has caused alarm is the realisation that the cooling of the stratosphere over the past five years has been greater than predicted, especially over the polar regions in winter."

"That the mesosphere is getting colder is not unexpected; like the stratosphere it should be subject to cooling as the troposphere warms. It is the size of this cooling that has taken everyone by surprise."

I have no doubt that we are experiencing global climate change: we are seeing the effects of that here in Australia and also in Europe. (Yes, I understand the difference between weather and climate.)

However, I have yet to be convinced that we understand what is changing, or how or why it is changing, and I have even stronger doubts over whether we really know enough about the physics of the planet to be able to make predictions for the year 2100. The models, any and all of them, are only as good as the data and the physics we put into them. We keep finding new factors.

Cheers


Spot on. The alarmism inherent in the piece quoted implies that the changes in the outer reaches of the atmosphere are due to the increase in the airborne fraction of co2 allegedly due to human emissions. Nothing could be further from the truth. There was a rash of breathless news items form CNN et al at the time. Meanwhile NASA says:

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/coolingthermosphere.html

Quiet Sun Means Cooling of Earth's Upper Atmosphere
12.17.09

New measurements from a NASA satellite show a dramatic cooling in the upper atmosphere that correlates with the declining phase of the current solar cycle. For the first time, researchers can show a timely link between the Sun and the climate of Earth’s thermosphere, the region above 100 km, an essential step in making accurate predictions of climate change in the high atmosphere.

Earth's thermosphere and mesosphere have been the least explored regions of the atmosphere. The NASA Thermosphere-Ionosphere-Mesosphere Energetics and Dynamics (TIMED) mission was developed to explore the Earth’s atmosphere above 60 km altitude and was launched in December 2001. One of four instruments on the TIMED mission, the Sounding of the Atmosphere using Broadband Emission Radiometry (SABER) instrument, was specifically designed to measure the energy budget of the mesosphere and lower thermosphere. The SABER dataset now covers eight years of data and has already provided some basic insight into the heat budget of the thermosphere on a variety of timescales.

The extent of current solar minimum conditions has created a unique situation for recent SABER datasets, explains Stan Solomon, acting director of the High Altitude Observatory, National Center for Atmospheric Research in Boulder, Colo. The end of solar cycle 23 has offered an opportunity to study the radiative cooling in the thermosphere under exceptionally quiescent conditions.

"The Sun is in a very unusual period," said Marty Mlynczak, SABER associate principal investigator and senior research scientist at NASA Langley. "The Earth’s thermosphere is responding remarkably — up to an order of magnitude decrease in infrared emission/radiative cooling by some molecules."

The TIMED measurements show a decrease in the amount of ultraviolet radiation emitted by the Sun. In addition, the amount of infrared radiation emitted from the upper atmosphere by nitric oxide molecules has decreased by nearly a factor of 10 since early 2002. These observations imply that the upper atmosphere has cooled substantially since then. The research team expects the atmosphere to heat up again as solar activity starts to pick up in the next year.

While this warming has no implications for climate change in the troposphere, a fundamental prediction of climate change theory is that the upper atmosphere will cool in response to increasing carbon dioxide. As the atmosphere cools the density will decrease, which ultimately may impact satellite operations through decreased drag over time.

"A fundamental prediction of climate change theory is that upper atmosphere will cool in response to greenhouse gases in the troposphere," says Mlynczak. "Scientists need to validate that theory. This climate record of the upper atmosphere is our first chance to have the other side of the equation."

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: balls? on 02/10/2012 02:39:39 MST Print View

"In general, Rog has come to the wrong website to recruit stupid people."

You are of course entitled to your stupid opinion, along with your incomptetent attempted mind reading and ugly ascription of motivation.

I came to BPL to discuss lightweight backpacking. Along the way I became embroiled in the climate debate.

I'm informing people of stuff the mass media doesn't tell them, so they can better think for themselves with an appropriately balanced range of information. I don't have any need or desire to 'recruit' anyone.

dan mchale
(wildlife) - MLife

Locale: Cascadia
1999 on 02/10/2012 02:48:54 MST Print View

You make enough derogatory comments about the other side Rog, that you ask for this treatment - like on your own website 'the only thing wind power is good for is sailing' You are a we too arrogant. What's with the need to knock alternative energy? You give yourself away too easily. Maybe you should go back to talking about gear since you have obviously made up your mind about climate, while at the same time you faine this seeking of knowledge. It's laughable. Go ahead make 5 posts in a row now. This is your blog after all! I guess you did not manage to ignor me after all - like the way you probably can't ignor the Australian flooding.

The paper I posted was from 1999 when the sun was active - if that matters to you.

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/WorldOfChange/solar.php

"The small changes in solar irradiance that occur during the solar cycle exert a small influence on Earth’s climate, with periods of intense magnetic activity (the solar maximum) producing slightly higher temperatures, and solar minimum periods such as that seen in 2008 and early 2009 likely to have the opposite effect."

Edited by wildlife on 02/10/2012 02:58:00 MST.